2 the elephant and the baloth, those are very narrow and more often useless unless they are the only cards in hand. Could we get them in colors not associated to BGx decks? its like BGx cards are the only cards that get pushes for playable cards.
I count 8 on Gatherer
Dodecapod
Guerrilla Tactics
Loxodon Smiter
Nephalia Academy
Obstinate Baloth
Pure Intentions
Quagnoth
Wilt-Leaf Liege
There are decks out there doing the midrange thing such as gw company, jeskai midrange, delver strategies and eldrazi strategies that don't use thoughtseize or Iok. It depends on what they are trying to do.
Bolt is way more format warping than targeted discard. It is THE card that regulates what can and cannot be played, even in formats such as this one where it isn't terrific. Should we be discussing that? No.
I play grixis delver where I have access to it and hardly use it. I play dead guy ale where it is an essential part of the game plan, but that's because it is a different game plan.
I believe ktkenshinx already said, and I know that I already said, if somehow discard decks become a problem it is because of what the discard was protecting. No one here was bringing up discard when we had traditional jund because you had time to fight back, and the deck was just pretty good. If the drawbacks associated don't hinder a strategy enough to offset the benefits and people consistently can't recover in time then something else from that overall strategy is causing it to be so much better than anything you can be doing, not the discard.
This is the ban thread, I appreciate a good thought experiment and I've been on the wrong end of plenty of them, but I'll gladly defend the right side on this one because it is so easy.
EDIT: I just can't with MM. from what I'm gathering, your main complaint is too much revolves around ts/iok and they are their own best answers, correct?
Well do you really want every deck to start with 4 mental misstep? Just think of some of those turn 1's and get back to me.
2 the elephant and the baloth, those are very narrow and more often useless unless they are the only cards in hand. Could we get them in colors not associated to BGx decks? its like BGx cards are the only cards that get pushes for playable cards.
I count 8 on Gatherer
Dodecapod
Guerrilla Tactics
Loxodon Smiter
Nephalia Academy
Obstinate Baloth
Pure Intentions
Quagnoth
Wilt-Leaf Liege
and other than smiter, liege, and baloth none of these are actually playable cards. Looks like green has itself covered against can we get some playable options in blue or red?
Again this is a completely interactive affect how does making a interactive card stifle interaction?
That is not an interactive effect, it's an anti-interaction effect. That's like saying Bogles is an interactive deck because it stops you from playing removal.
Personally not worried about combo being better, I like playing against combo. And if combo gets better, I would hope control would become better too.
The problem here is that if combo gets better by making it harder to interact with, that doesn't make control better, it makes control worse. Doing that makes fast linear decks that can race better.
So what is a 3/1 flying body worth to you guys? If we remove it from a card, how does this sound?
Thoughtwrinkle
U
Sorcery
look at target player's hand. You may choose a nonland card from it. If you do, that player reveals the chosen card, puts it on the bottom of his or her library, then draws a card.
Busted? Unplayable? Goes right into grixis shadow?
Unplayable. It's straight card disadvantage. Clique is good because it's instant speed and the 3/1 flying body is relevant.
If mental misstep is forever going to be banned I don't see JtmS ever being off the list, both are widely considered design mistakes and JtmS is the way stronger Mistake.
They're mistakes for different reasons, though. Jace was a power level mistake, so if we feel like his power level fits within the boundaries of Modern he could be unbanned. That's debatable, of course, but there could definitely be a time where he's safe to come off the banned list. MM, on the other hand, is just a design mistake. MM becomes a 4-of in almost every deck in any format that it's legal in because it can go in any deck and counters itself. Some decks will want to counter their opponent's 1 drops, and even decks that don't want to play reactively will run it to protect their 1 drops from opponent's MMs. MM has to stay banned just because it's a badly designed card.
This seems like a good point. If TS/IoK are pervasive answers that are often best answered by the opponent simply playing them as well. TS/IOK are both amongst the most played spells in the format. Would Mental Misstep really be more pervasive than that?
Yes. The difference is that you have to be playing black to play TS/IoK, and even then not every black deck will want them. Esper Control, for instance, just plays a couple TS in the sideboard. Grixis Control and Delver don't play any discard. MM, on the other hand, goes in every deck, and every deck would play them, at the very least to counter your opponent's MMs.
On the topic of DS, I think the best targetted ban, if something needs to be banned, would be Traverse. It's widely accepted that the green versions of DS are the best versions, and that's largely because Traverse acts as DS/Goyf 9-12. The non-green DS decks are good, but hardly problematic. So, I think the best option is to hit something that weakens the GBx versions without hitting the UBx versions, and I think that card is Traverse.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
There are decks out there doing the midrange thing such as gw company, jeskai midrange, delver strategies and eldrazi strategies that don't use thoughtseize or Iok. It depends on what they are trying to do.
Bolt is way more format warping than targeted discard. It is THE card that regulates what can and cannot be played, even in formats such as this one where it isn't terrific. Should we be discussing that? No.
I play grixis delver where I have access to it and hardly use it. I play dead guy ale where it is an essential part of the game plan, but that's because it is a different game plan.
I believe ktkenshinx already said, and I know that I already said, if somehow discard decks become a problem it is because of what the discard was protecting. No one here was bringing up discard when we had traditional jund because you had time to fight back, and the deck was just pretty good. If the drawbacks associated don't hinder a strategy enough to offset the benefits and people consistently can't recover in time then something else from that overall strategy is causing it to be so much better than anything you can be doing, not the discard.
This is the ban thread, I appreciate a good thought experiment and I've been on the wrong end of plenty of them, but I'll gladly defend the right side on this one because it is so easy.
EDIT: I just can't with MM. from what I'm gathering, your main complaint is too much revolves around ts/iok and they are their own best answers, correct?
Well do you really want every deck to start with 4 mental misstep? Just think of some of those turn 1's and get back to me.
I disagree that bolt more warping than TS/IoK bolt affects to some extent what creatures you choose to play targeted discard affects what strategies are viable to play at all. We are again seeing a spike in linear aggro in the wake of a massive spike in Bxx discard decks this is a trend that will persist in the format IMO as super linear strategies are good against targeted discard. We will likely continue to see this cycle of BGx/Bxx DS decks spike and then a shift back towards linear non-interactive strategies, control will become a Ok option for however long the DS spike last but wan as soon as the linear non-interactive decks gain to combat the presence of such a glut of targeted discard. Bolt does a far poorer job in invalidating creatures as many of the 30 out of 50 of the top creatures played in modern die on the spot to bolt, that is a very weak job of "regulation" of the format and that is disregarding all of the Dredge creatures since removal of all stripes are bad against it.https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/modern/full/creatures
I play Grixis Delver also but by any measure the deck is very poor compared to the Grixis Shadow deck. The inclusion of 8 discard spells is a rather stark contrast and the results are certainly supporting the value of the discard in the decks. I am in no way saying you can't simply play what you want of course anyone can play whatever but having a competitive viability is something else. I play UR delver a lot but I have do not kid myself into thinking that its going to be competitive with the available cards in modern as of today. The reality is if you want to play a competitive fair deck in modern you likely need to splash some black cards to even have a real chance.
No I wasn't advocating for a MM unbanning but a new cycle of cards that give messure of protection against targeted discard similar to the anti-control Trap cycle or the cannot be countered cycle. I was simply using MM as a example of card that people wouldn't want legal because of the "gotta play it" factor but IMO modern is very much a play TS/IoK or play some non-interactive deck if you want a viable competitive option.
1. UU for Draw two cards at instant speed is very powerful. It is likely too powerful to be printed. Night's Whisper is sorcery speed with downside and the closest thing to what you're describing is something like Words of Wisdom or Accumulated Knowledge. It would be interesting to see them push that limit, but you have to remember that there isn't even a 3 mana instant speed draw two cards outside of Esper Charm, Abzan Charm, or Cerebral Vortex [[then there are conditional ones the net you a card in Artificer's Epiphany, Pulse of the Grid, and Thirst for Knowledge]]. Recently we have seen Wizards move towards more powerful instant speed draw effects at the CMC=4 amount instead of a vanilla Draw 2 they have more upside. It is possible if we see at the level of R&D that they feel 4 mana to draw 2 cards with upside, it is possible they could feel that draw two with no upside is reasonable (think about Night's Whisper vs. Read the Bones) and unnamed future card vs. Glimmer of Genius.
2. Re: discard. I really want to get into your example of saying you had an opening hand of 3 removal spells and when you got to your third turn that means your opponent had stripped your hand of resources. That means that they started with land, land, and 3 discard spells plus two more (if they did not mulligan) and then had an additional 2 draws before you got to start on turn three.
If you kept seven, you got to your turn three (assuming you hit your land drops) with 3 lands in play, 4 cards in hand and three cards spent. Correct me if the math is wrong.
Casting three discard spells early in the game to strip your hand means your opponent is not spending mana to develop their board. If they did nothing on turns 1 and 2 besides interacting with your hand, what were you doing on turn 1 and 2 yourself?
If you're going to keep a hand that does nothing until turn 3 in modern, that's never going to be a great recipe in the format.
All the suggestions about cards invalidating discard seem like very one-sided arguments. You're arguing from the side that feels you should have the ability to completely shut down discard at minimal deck construction cost. That's pretty brutal for the player who chooses to play discard in their deck as a way to interact with their opponent. Cavern of Souls is a very good magic card but it has significant downside.
Discard is good when you're looking it through the lens of being a play you can make on turn 1 or 2. It gets much worse as the game goes by. Countermagic gets better as the game goes on. It's like saying we should ban Aether Vial or Birds of Paradise because their impact when played on turn 1 is too high.
In what situation do you lose the game to a combo deck playing discard in modern? If your opponent is playing a combo deck and is spending all of their mana on attacking your hand, that means they are not setting up their combo. What are you doing while they're doing that?
No I understand that cheating it into play is what makes SFM good, I was simply saying that I don't think UW control would want to clog up its list with a creature based strategy.
I also didn't say it shouldn't be unbanned because it would be better in Abzan than than UW or D&T I was simply stating this is a really unwarranted hope. I actually agree that a very Conservative attitude towards preservation of the power level of BGx decks does seem to be the reasoning behind peoples logic as to why other colors should get tools that are actually on par with it.
I get responses all the time about how "x would invalidate Jund" or "y would make discard unplayable" and I disagree those decks will always be viable decks but they are not afforded some protectionist element in the meta-game that says an other wise fair card must be banned because it makes TS/IoK slightly worse.
I just wanted to chime in on this, as I think there is a slight misunderstanding about Stoneforge Mystic's power level.
First, I would say that U/W decks would absolutely be happy to adopt Stoneforge Mystic into their list. It's not exactly "clogging up their list" to add 6-12 cards to the deck to support a SFM engine. It's more like "enhancing their list with a dozen more powerful cards than they previously had access to". Even with just 4 Snapcaster, 4 Stoneforge, and 2 Equipments, it's a very compact and tidy package that covers your finishers as well as your card advantage. But in truth, we know from experience that the Stoneforge engine is powerful enough to warp entire FORMATS around it, which means that one person tries it, someone else wins with it, and by week 3 everyone else is figuring out how to beat 'em or join 'em. By week 5, all the smart kids have joined.
Point is, U/W would happily play a SFM package, as would Abzan, as would Esper, Naya, and various other existing shells. Which of those would end up on top is certainly a mystery, but I'm sure Abzan and U/W would be top contenders given their current power level. Adding SFM wouldn't diversify anything, it would just become the new engine that the metagame revolves around. And I'm not even taking into account the fact that ThopterSword is legal now, and would love to play in the sandbox with our favorite Kor Artificer.
Comparing Steelshaper's Gift to SFM is unjust. Steelshaper's Gift is not a 2-for-1, and does not provide a body for your equipment that can also cheat said equipment into play. If it did, people would play it.
I also want to chime in on Mental Misstep. I was active in Legacy when the card was legal, and it was an unfun time. Everything was warped around it, and while that allowed a few cool decks to actually shine (like Natural Order RUG/Bant and 1-drop Zoo), overall the format was pretty bad. I could wax more about why this was the case, but the gist of it was that everyone was trying to play Misstep, but the only decks that truly benefited from it were control decks that were already trying to answer everything on the stack. I'd rather see them reprint Daze for Modern than to let Misstep back in.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
[quote from="edinburgerboulderer53 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/775269-temporary-4-24-17-banlist-discussion-thread?comment=428"]
Personally not worried about combo being better, I like playing against combo. And if combo gets better, I would hope control would become better too.
The problem here is that if combo gets better by making it harder to interact with, that doesn't make control better, it makes control worse. Doing that makes fast linear decks that can race better.
(For what it's worth I largely agree with you) While that would generally be true Negate and Countersquall are still cards. You would lessen interaction through discard, but potentially promote it through counters.
I also would have to question which combo decks can afford a tapped land that they basically can't tap till going off? Ad Nauseum is the only one that springs to mind and I'm not sure it wants more tapped lands that don't dig? (don't play AN not sure)
Storm certainly needs it's mana each turn.
I do think the type of effect I described might be more control/midrange playable than combo playable.(But then it's all entirely hypothetical)
I just wanted to chime in on this, as I think there is a slight misunderstanding about Stoneforge Mystic's power level.
First, I would say that U/W decks would absolutely be happy to adopt Stoneforge Mystic into their list. It's not exactly "clogging up their list" to add 6-12 cards to the deck to support a SFM engine. It's more like "enhancing their list with a dozen more powerful cards than they previously had access to". Even with just 4 Snapcaster, 4 Stoneforge, and 2 Equipments, it's a very compact and tidy package that covers your finishers as well as your card advantage. But in truth, we know from experience that the Stoneforge engine is powerful enough to warp entire FORMATS around it, which means that one person tries it, someone else wins with it, and by week 3 everyone else is figuring out how to beat 'em or join 'em. By week 5, all the smart kids have joined.
I have no doubt that this is what happened when it was in Standard, but Modern is a different format. Things that warp Standard don't always warp Modern. Emrakul tPE, Reflector Mage, and Smuggler's Copter see practically no play in Modern. Saheeli combo is very borderline on being Modern playable. And we have actual proof that SFM doesn't warp every format it's in, because it's just barely even playable in Legacy these days.
The best case scenario for SFM is a turn 3 Batterskull, assuming that a creature that dies to every removal spell in the format can survive a turn. Is a turn 3 4/4 lifelink vigilance really more powerful than some of the stuff the DS decks are doing? Is it more powerful than Dredge dumping 10 power on the board on turn 2? Is it more powerful than Revolt Zoo putting 10 hastey power on the board on turn 1? The fact is that SFM's best play is not the most powerful thing you can do in Modern. It's good, and would certainly see play, but I have a hard time believing SFM would be broken, especially as long as DS decks still exist.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
The format is doing fairly well so now it's a bunch of players discussing thoughtseize being broken and entertaining mental misstep?
It sounds like you guys ran out of things to talk about---I truly believe that WOTC is way too preoccupied fixing standard that modern will not see any significant changes until December, minus something new or oppressive being discovered.
SFM would be awesome to be unbanned, but I've given up on that until I see it happen, WOTC has shown no interest in major decesions like that.
2 the elephant and the baloth, those are very narrow and more often useless unless they are the only cards in hand. Could we get them in colors not associated to BGx decks? its like BGx cards are the only cards that get pushes for playable cards.
I count 8 on Gatherer
Dodecapod
Guerrilla Tactics
Loxodon Smiter
Nephalia Academy
Obstinate Baloth
Pure Intentions
Quagnoth
Wilt-Leaf Liege
and other than smiter, liege, and baloth none of these are actually playable cards. Looks like green has itself covered against can we get some playable options in blue or red?
Unlikely to happen as Red/Blue are the ally colors of black. That's why most of the cards on that list are Green/White.
I think there's a lot to be gleaned from Aaron's text. Notable takeaways:
- Death's Shadow decks are safe unless the metagame shifts so that deck diversity plummets
- A U/W unban is likely in the next announcement or two if those colors continue to put up miserable results
- Wizards cares about Modern and is taking the community's cries for transparency seriously
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Everyone does realize that deaths shadow has fallen from the top, right? You know how everyone said, give the meta time to adjust? Well, it did, and the deck found a super healthy place in the meta, let's take a week off of complaining about it. I'm much more interested in discussing the rapid resurgence of dredge in recent leagues
I have no doubt that this is what happened when it was in Standard, but Modern is a different format. Things that warp Standard don't always warp Modern. Emrakul tPE, Reflector Mage, and Smuggler's Copter see practically no play in Modern. Saheeli combo is very borderline on being Modern playable. And we have actual proof that SFM doesn't warp every format it's in, because it's just barely even playable in Legacy these days.
The best case scenario for SFM is a turn 3 Batterskull, assuming that a creature that dies to every removal spell in the format can survive a turn. Is a turn 3 4/4 lifelink vigilance really more powerful than some of the stuff the DS decks are doing? Is it more powerful than Dredge dumping 10 power on the board on turn 2? Is it more powerful than Revolt Zoo putting 10 hastey power on the board on turn 1? The fact is that SFM's best play is not the most powerful thing you can do in Modern. It's good, and would certainly see play, but I have a hard time believing SFM would be broken, especially as long as DS decks still exist.
Wait, so you're going to overlook nearly 7 years of Stoneblade being a Tier 1 deck in Legacy as evidence that it's not playable in that format? Yikes. Stoneforge is still played in Legacy, even if it's not at it's Tier 1 dominance. And now that Top is banned and Miracles stands to fall from grace, it's pretty likely that Stoneblade regains a good share of the metagame again.
I have no doubt that after a few years and perhaps a few other unbans (Bloodbraid and Twin as examples), the Stoneblade package would prove to be "fine" in modern. I was simply reminding Bizzycola, and the thread in general, not to overlook Stoneforge Mystic's power.
Your specific questions are subjective, but I will still respond to them:
Batterskull on turn 3 is definitely going to be a brick wall for many Death's Shadow decks, and the card advantage helps against their Plan B attrition strategy as well. More powerful? subjective. Good enough to be playable against them? Absolutely.
Similarly, having a Batterskull in play to gain life and eat Zombies from Dredge each turn is one of the best ways I can think of to stabilize, short of SB-level stuff like Anger of the Gods. It's not great, but it's better than just trying to race or block with a 4/5 that doesn't have lifelink or vigilance. Same goes for Revolt Zoo. I play that deck, and while it's possible to get through a brick wall lifelinker on turn 3, you need a serious nut draw to do it. Without a very aggressive start and a copy of Atarka's Command, I'd be in serious trouble against T3 'Skull.
And in all the grindy attrition matches, Stoneforge is going to shine. Against most combo, she's probably too clunky, but if it's your only threat and the rest of your deck can interact with said combo deck, she's still serviceable.
I'd be happy to see Stoneforge come off. I don't think she's too overpowered, and I agree that Modern is a different format than Legacy or Caw-Blade Standard was. But that doesn't mean she isn't powerful enough to warp the metagame around her, even if that effect is somewhat temporary. I'd rather see Stoneforge come off than something like Misstep. And while I think SFM would also boost decks like Abzan, it would probably help U/W/x more than anything else, which would be an improvement in color balance for sure. Just don't overlook the fact that she dominated Standard alongside her best friend Jace until they were both banned, and was the #1 deck in Legacy for years. If she gets released into Modern, you better be ready to beat her or join her.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Everyone does realize that deaths shadow has fallen from the top, right? You know how everyone said, give the meta time to adjust? Well, it did, and the deck found a super healthy place in the meta, let's take a week off of complaining about it. I'm much more interested in discussing the rapid resurgence of dredge in recent leagues
Yes but it weren't interactive decks that gained popularity, it was mainly stuff like Dredge, Storm and Affinity. UW control also(as expected)so far didn't live up to its hype.
The metagame is becoming more linear again similar to the state before the recent bannings, except that Death's Shadow has replaced the much slower traditional BGx and made the format even faster.
So far it looks like bans aren't the answer when it comes to making the format less linear, I really hope that at least Stoneforge Mystic will be unbanned soon.
All good cards warp the format around it. I don't think that is an important factor here. Stoneforge just isn't the same card without access to Umezawa's Jitte.
I don't see how you can claim that the batterskull is going to be a brickwall. With 8 discard spells, there is a good chance that Shadow decks can snipe the BS out of the Stoneforge Player's hand, leaving them with a "value squire". If you don't have one of the 8 discard spells, a fatal push or k-command can take out the SFM and/or BS. So Shadow decks have 12 one-mana answers, which doesn't even include just attacking through with a huge shadow or goyf. Not only do shadow decks already play tons of answers maindeck, but even their threats just outclass the best-case scenario. Maybe grabbing sword of feast and famine in some places will make sense, but then the same cards answer that one as well.
If bskull stonewalls dredge, that is upside. White should have good tools against a deck like dredge. That being said, dredge will have options to address the card (ancient grudge for example).
In revolt Zoo's case, the deck has a decent number of turn 3 wins that go under SFM. You point out yourself that Atarka's command is a blowout even if things go right for the Stoneblade deck.
It seems like all the decks that are threatened the most by SFM already play maindeck hate for the card. The fact that SFM has never had a chance in the format is just further evidence that all this fear over the card is misplaced. Maybe when the format started the tools didn't exist to reign it in. However, the fact that Kolaghan's Command sees maindeck play and answers a fully resolved SFM is a pretty good reason to believe it will be fine. If SFM sees too much play, K-command and ancient grudge will control her.
SFM is safe now, no matter her history. There is not any coherent rationale for her to continue to be on the banlist given the cardpool as it exists now.
Everyone does realize that deaths shadow has fallen from the top, right? You know how everyone said, give the meta time to adjust? Well, it did, and the deck found a super healthy place in the meta, let's take a week off of complaining about it. I'm much more interested in discussing the rapid resurgence of dredge in recent leagues
Yes but it weren't interactive decks that gained popularity, it was mainly stuff like Dredge, Storm and Affinity. UW control also(as expected)so far didn't live up to its hype.
The metagame is becoming more linear again similar to the state before the recent bannings, except that Death's Shadow has replaced the much slower traditional BGx and made the format even faster.
So far it looks like bans aren't the answer when it comes to making the format less linear, I really hope that at least Stoneforge Mystic will be unbanned soon.
I mean, it turns out that banning probe didnt hurt affinity at all and making dredge mill 1.5 less per turn didn't do much and amalgam was the correct ban? Affinity and dredge rising to the top has nothing to do with deaths shadow decks yet all that has been discussed in here is whether we should ban Thoughtseize or if just hitting street wraith is enough
I have no doubt that this is what happened when it was in Standard, but Modern is a different format. Things that warp Standard don't always warp Modern. Emrakul tPE, Reflector Mage, and Smuggler's Copter see practically no play in Modern. Saheeli combo is very borderline on being Modern playable. And we have actual proof that SFM doesn't warp every format it's in, because it's just barely even playable in Legacy these days.
The best case scenario for SFM is a turn 3 Batterskull, assuming that a creature that dies to every removal spell in the format can survive a turn. Is a turn 3 4/4 lifelink vigilance really more powerful than some of the stuff the DS decks are doing? Is it more powerful than Dredge dumping 10 power on the board on turn 2? Is it more powerful than Revolt Zoo putting 10 hastey power on the board on turn 1? The fact is that SFM's best play is not the most powerful thing you can do in Modern. It's good, and would certainly see play, but I have a hard time believing SFM would be broken, especially as long as DS decks still exist.
Wait, so you're going to overlook nearly 7 years of Stoneblade being a Tier 1 deck in Legacy as evidence that it's not playable in that format? Yikes. Stoneforge is still played in Legacy, even if it's not at it's Tier 1 dominance. And now that Top is banned and Miracles stands to fall from grace, it's pretty likely that Stoneblade regains a good share of the metagame again.
...
I'd be happy to see Stoneforge come off. I don't think she's too overpowered, and I agree that Modern is a different format than Legacy or Caw-Blade Standard was. But that doesn't mean she isn't powerful enough to warp the metagame around her, even if that effect is somewhat temporary.
You're analyzing SFM unfairly. Unlike other banned cards, such as Jace, Stoneforge's effect in Modern would be different from her effect in Legacy, as she's only as good as the equipment legal in a format. Jace will always have the same four abilities. A big part of Stoneblade being so good in Legacy is access to Umezawa's Jitte, which is banned in Modern. All Legacy Stoneblade decks play Jitte. The card makes up a huge component of SFM's playability. If she merely represented a 4/4 or a Sword, I doubt she would see much Legacy play, if any.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I think there's a lot to be gleaned from Aaron's text. Notable takeaways:
- Death's Shadow decks are safe unless the metagame shifts so that deck diversity plummets
- A U/W unban is likely in the next announcement or two if those colors continue to put up miserable results
- Wizards cares about Modern and is taking the community's cries for transparency seriously
I agree with pretty much everything here other than the interpretation of "easy change." Perhaps I am allowing my personal biases to intervene, but I view this statement as working with large amounts of known information, pointing directly at Splinter Twin. All other options are either unknown quantities (Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic) or cards Wizards seems to have expressed direct hatred for (Preordain and other "good" cantrips).
While I fully agree that Jace and SFM would not be broken, Wizards doesn't test for the format and makes these decisions on gut feelings that may or may not be swayed by collected data. There is no data on SFM or Jace in Modern, so that decision needs to be made entirely on feeling and intuition and whatever half-hearted testing they pretend to do. While I would embrace both these cards with open arms and be thrilled to see them, nothing they have said or done indicates they would ever put these in Modern.
And that brings me back to Twin. It was a deck that was never broken, never truly oppressive, and really stretches definition of "diversity killer" considering the massive health and diversity among T1 and T2 decks throughout the year leading up to its ban. It's a known quantity with years of data that could easily and safely be inserted into the current metagame that has multiple poor matchups in current top tier decks. Plus, this would inadvertently boost UW decks because they can beat up on Eldrazi, Death's Shadow, AND Twin. So that would boost "control" in general, in addition to returning the iconic combo/tempo/control deck to the format. The other "easy" change could be swapping Twin for Exarch, which has been discussed multiple times for both weakening the deck overall and splintering it (lol) into distinct and different variations with specific advantages and drawbacks, but all objectively weaker than old UR builds.
Again, I may be reading into the words with Twin tinted glasses, but I have a hard time rationalizing Wizards releasing some of these other cards. They have been adamantly condemned multiple times as "having a grave" in Modern, even if they could be beneficial to the format as a whole. That doesn't strike me as an "easy choice," and I could be completely wrong, but it's hard for me to imagine Wizards seeing Jace/SFM/Preordain as "easy choices" based on their own actions and statements.
I think that bringing back twin wont boost UW. I think that the opposite should happen. The only way to remove the creature that is going to be enchanted by twin is path to exile. Giving extra lands to a tempo deck is almost a lost game, but, i do think that something like esper, uwr or mardu would shine against something like ur tempo twin or tarmo twin (dickmann said that he even ran less lands with the asumption that white mages would use path on tarmogoyf, giving him basic lands to play better)
So, with an eventual unban on twin, more control deck should be viable.
I think that at the moment, death shadow is the police deck in modern, just like twin was a long time ago, but with twibn, lightning bolt was a live card, so the quantity of control decks viable were bigger. Now, that bolt doesnt kill anything relevant, the only control deck alive is uw
Jitte is certainly part of the equation, but I don't think the lack of it makes SFM somehow weaker by multiples in Modern. Jitte isn't exactly crushing 4/5s and 8/8s, and there are plenty of other options to find with Stoneforge. Still, not having access to it weakens SFM slightly for sure. But again, we're basically ignoring the ThopterSword package, as well as the fact that 4 time out of 5, the Stoneblade player was getting Batterskull anyway. Even without thoptersword, I don't think downgrading Jitte to SoFaF is as much of a loss of power as one might think it is, especially when you consider how the formats are different.
Perhaps "brick wall" was the wrong term. "Problematic obstacle" might be better. I wasn't trying to say that Death's shadow decks would suffer against SFM, just that the two strategies are comparably powerful. Death's Shadow still needs to win through damage, and while they can easily overrun or deal with a 4/4 vig, lifelinker, it's still a problem for them if they can't. Discard is an answer to everything sure. And Kcommand is a brilliant response to SFM in general. But that doesn't mean SFM just folds to DS. Just that they will interact with each other, and probably a lot. Spell pierce and dispel are cards after all.
More devolving into minor battles about card interaction (a fruitless exercise), but I'll still bite: My point about Revolt Zoo was that things need to go right for the Zoo deck in order to beat turn 3 Skull. Almost no deck in the format can beat a nut draw from Revolt Zoo that culminates in an Atarka's Command on turn 3. But the fundamental flaw of that deck is their inconsistency. The type of hands that beat Turn 3 Batterskull are the types of hands that beat almost any resistance. But the mediocre and medium hands are what count, and I can tell you that for the average game that doesn't involve nut draws, Turn 3 Batterskull is a big problem for many aggro decks. Drawing a single SFM isn't a "nut draw", it's pretty average. Drawing the exact 8 cards that beat it is a much harder feat. Which is fine. We would lose some aggro. I'm sure Burn would still be fine, as would some variation of CoCo. Revolt might suffer but it's only Tier 2/3 anyway.
Again, the whole point was simply to say, don't underestimate SFM. I'm not saying she would be an issue. In fact, I already stated that I think she would be fine right now. It's been a long time coming, but I do think the format in its current state could handle SFM reasonably well. U/W decks would likely stand to gain the most, and they could certainly use the boost. But I know for a fact that some of the same people complaining about Death's Shadow right now would be back here after Mystic's return, arguing about how oppressive she has become. It's the circle of life here. I was just trying to inject some logic, and remind people that balanced or not, Stoneforge is still a force to be reckoned with, and not some clunky package that doesn't jive with existing U/W deck, as was suggested by Bizzycola on the previous page.
No need to keep this particular argument going though. I basically agree with everyone if the line is "Stoneforge should be heavily considered to come off the ban list". We could talk about theoretical interactions for pages, but I'm not interested in doing that. It's all speculation anyway. The bottom line is that Stoneforge is more than playable in this format, which is why we're even discussing it being unbanned. I'm also strongly of the opinion that the format is relatively fine right now, and doesn't need a shakeup just yet. But I would put Stoneforge on my list of cards I'd like to see considered for freedom, alongside Jace, Twin, and BBE.
I think we basically agree HomelandZecurity. I fully reject any claims that Death's Shadow is in a spot where it is valid to speculate that it should be banned. SFM is in the upper part of the modern power band, but I in no way accept that she will be the best thing to be doing in the format. The fact that answers are already commonly played in tier 1 decks is about the best insulation you can ask for against any potential unban - which is what makes it such an appealing option imo.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Jitte is certainly part of the equation, but I don't think the lack of it makes SFM somehow weaker by multiples in Modern. Jitte isn't exactly crushing 4/5s and 8/8s, and there are plenty of other options to find with Stoneforge. Still, not having access to it weakens SFM slightly for sure. But again, we're basically ignoring the ThopterSword package, as well as the fact that 4 time out of 5, the Stoneblade player was getting Batterskull anyway. Even without thoptersword, I don't think downgrading Jitte to SoFaF is as much of a loss of power as one might think it is, especially when you consider how the formats are different.
Perhaps "brick wall" was the wrong term. "Problematic obstacle" might be better. I wasn't trying to say that Death's shadow decks would suffer against SFM, just that the two strategies are comparably powerful. Death's Shadow still needs to win through damage, and while they can easily overrun or deal with a 4/4 vig, lifelinker, it's still a problem for them if they can't. Discard is an answer to everything sure. And Kcommand is a brilliant response to SFM in general. But that doesn't mean SFM just folds to DS. Just that they will interact with each other, and probably a lot. Spell pierce and dispel are cards after all.
More devolving into minor battles about card interaction (a fruitless exercise), but I'll still bite: My point about Revolt Zoo was that things need to go right for the Zoo deck in order to beat turn 3 Skull. Almost no deck in the format can beat a nut draw from Revolt Zoo that culminates in an Atarka's Command on turn 3. But the fundamental flaw of that deck is their inconsistency. The type of hands that beat Turn 3 Batterskull are the types of hands that beat almost any resistance. But the mediocre and medium hands are what count, and I can tell you that for the average game that doesn't involve nut draws, Turn 3 Batterskull is a big problem for many aggro decks. Drawing a single SFM isn't a "nut draw", it's pretty average. Drawing the exact 8 cards that beat it is a much harder feat. Which is fine. We would lose some aggro. I'm sure Burn would still be fine, as would some variation of CoCo. Revolt might suffer but it's only Tier 2/3 anyway.
Again, the whole point was simply to say, don't underestimate SFM. I'm not saying she would be an issue. In fact, I already stated that I think she would be fine right now. It's been a long time coming, but I do think the format in its current state could handle SFM reasonably well. U/W decks would likely stand to gain the most, and they could certainly use the boost. But I know for a fact that some of the same people complaining about Death's Shadow right now would be back here after Mystic's return, arguing about how oppressive she has become. It's the circle of life here. I was just trying to inject some logic, and remind people that balanced or not, Stoneforge is still a force to be reckoned with, and not some clunky package that doesn't jive with existing U/W deck, as was suggested by Bizzycola on the previous page.
No need to keep this particular argument going though. I basically agree with everyone if the line is "Stoneforge should be heavily considered to come off the ban list". We could talk about theoretical interactions for pages, but I'm not interested in doing that. It's all speculation anyway. The bottom line is that Stoneforge is more than playable in this format, which is why we're even discussing it being unbanned. I'm also strongly of the opinion that the format is relatively fine right now, and doesn't need a shakeup just yet. But I would put Stoneforge on my list of cards I'd like to see considered for freedom, alongside Jace, Twin, and BBE.
I couldn't have said it better myself! I played blade in legacy and I think I lost one game to burn. Bskull is tough to beat and that's what you fetch 90% of the time. Don't forget, the stoneblade players get to play with permission too! A nice combo was Stoneblade->get sword->they kill stoneforge you cast lingering souls and suit up. I'd say stoneforge is right on the cusp of being safe in modern but it would certainly be a pillar of the format.
Anyone else think Preordain would be better for control than combo? Control is all about hitting land drops and serum visions isn't very good at providing that.
Its weird to me that so many people here actually believe Stoneforge Mystic might be unbanned. It is such an obvious inclusion on the ban list.
Man, why didn't I think of this before? It is a pretty obvious inclusion now that I think about it a little. To anyone reading this: scrap what I said before and my article. There is no way SFM comes off.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I count 8 on Gatherer
Dodecapod
Guerrilla Tactics
Loxodon Smiter
Nephalia Academy
Obstinate Baloth
Pure Intentions
Quagnoth
Wilt-Leaf Liege
Bolt is way more format warping than targeted discard. It is THE card that regulates what can and cannot be played, even in formats such as this one where it isn't terrific. Should we be discussing that? No.
I play grixis delver where I have access to it and hardly use it. I play dead guy ale where it is an essential part of the game plan, but that's because it is a different game plan.
I believe ktkenshinx already said, and I know that I already said, if somehow discard decks become a problem it is because of what the discard was protecting. No one here was bringing up discard when we had traditional jund because you had time to fight back, and the deck was just pretty good. If the drawbacks associated don't hinder a strategy enough to offset the benefits and people consistently can't recover in time then something else from that overall strategy is causing it to be so much better than anything you can be doing, not the discard.
This is the ban thread, I appreciate a good thought experiment and I've been on the wrong end of plenty of them, but I'll gladly defend the right side on this one because it is so easy.
EDIT: I just can't with MM. from what I'm gathering, your main complaint is too much revolves around ts/iok and they are their own best answers, correct?
Well do you really want every deck to start with 4 mental misstep? Just think of some of those turn 1's and get back to me.
and other than smiter, liege, and baloth none of these are actually playable cards. Looks like green has itself covered against can we get some playable options in blue or red?
That is not an interactive effect, it's an anti-interaction effect. That's like saying Bogles is an interactive deck because it stops you from playing removal.
The problem here is that if combo gets better by making it harder to interact with, that doesn't make control better, it makes control worse. Doing that makes fast linear decks that can race better.
Unplayable. It's straight card disadvantage. Clique is good because it's instant speed and the 3/1 flying body is relevant.
They're mistakes for different reasons, though. Jace was a power level mistake, so if we feel like his power level fits within the boundaries of Modern he could be unbanned. That's debatable, of course, but there could definitely be a time where he's safe to come off the banned list. MM, on the other hand, is just a design mistake. MM becomes a 4-of in almost every deck in any format that it's legal in because it can go in any deck and counters itself. Some decks will want to counter their opponent's 1 drops, and even decks that don't want to play reactively will run it to protect their 1 drops from opponent's MMs. MM has to stay banned just because it's a badly designed card.
Yes. The difference is that you have to be playing black to play TS/IoK, and even then not every black deck will want them. Esper Control, for instance, just plays a couple TS in the sideboard. Grixis Control and Delver don't play any discard. MM, on the other hand, goes in every deck, and every deck would play them, at the very least to counter your opponent's MMs.
On the topic of DS, I think the best targetted ban, if something needs to be banned, would be Traverse. It's widely accepted that the green versions of DS are the best versions, and that's largely because Traverse acts as DS/Goyf 9-12. The non-green DS decks are good, but hardly problematic. So, I think the best option is to hit something that weakens the GBx versions without hitting the UBx versions, and I think that card is Traverse.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I disagree that bolt more warping than TS/IoK bolt affects to some extent what creatures you choose to play targeted discard affects what strategies are viable to play at all. We are again seeing a spike in linear aggro in the wake of a massive spike in Bxx discard decks this is a trend that will persist in the format IMO as super linear strategies are good against targeted discard. We will likely continue to see this cycle of BGx/Bxx DS decks spike and then a shift back towards linear non-interactive strategies, control will become a Ok option for however long the DS spike last but wan as soon as the linear non-interactive decks gain to combat the presence of such a glut of targeted discard. Bolt does a far poorer job in invalidating creatures as many of the 30 out of 50 of the top creatures played in modern die on the spot to bolt, that is a very weak job of "regulation" of the format and that is disregarding all of the Dredge creatures since removal of all stripes are bad against it.https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/modern/full/creatures
I play Grixis Delver also but by any measure the deck is very poor compared to the Grixis Shadow deck. The inclusion of 8 discard spells is a rather stark contrast and the results are certainly supporting the value of the discard in the decks. I am in no way saying you can't simply play what you want of course anyone can play whatever but having a competitive viability is something else. I play UR delver a lot but I have do not kid myself into thinking that its going to be competitive with the available cards in modern as of today. The reality is if you want to play a competitive fair deck in modern you likely need to splash some black cards to even have a real chance.
No I wasn't advocating for a MM unbanning but a new cycle of cards that give messure of protection against targeted discard similar to the anti-control Trap cycle or the cannot be countered cycle. I was simply using MM as a example of card that people wouldn't want legal because of the "gotta play it" factor but IMO modern is very much a play TS/IoK or play some non-interactive deck if you want a viable competitive option.
1. UU for Draw two cards at instant speed is very powerful. It is likely too powerful to be printed. Night's Whisper is sorcery speed with downside and the closest thing to what you're describing is something like Words of Wisdom or Accumulated Knowledge. It would be interesting to see them push that limit, but you have to remember that there isn't even a 3 mana instant speed draw two cards outside of Esper Charm, Abzan Charm, or Cerebral Vortex [[then there are conditional ones the net you a card in Artificer's Epiphany, Pulse of the Grid, and Thirst for Knowledge]]. Recently we have seen Wizards move towards more powerful instant speed draw effects at the CMC=4 amount instead of a vanilla Draw 2 they have more upside. It is possible if we see at the level of R&D that they feel 4 mana to draw 2 cards with upside, it is possible they could feel that draw two with no upside is reasonable (think about Night's Whisper vs. Read the Bones) and unnamed future card vs. Glimmer of Genius.
2. Re: discard. I really want to get into your example of saying you had an opening hand of 3 removal spells and when you got to your third turn that means your opponent had stripped your hand of resources. That means that they started with land, land, and 3 discard spells plus two more (if they did not mulligan) and then had an additional 2 draws before you got to start on turn three.
If you kept seven, you got to your turn three (assuming you hit your land drops) with 3 lands in play, 4 cards in hand and three cards spent. Correct me if the math is wrong.
Casting three discard spells early in the game to strip your hand means your opponent is not spending mana to develop their board. If they did nothing on turns 1 and 2 besides interacting with your hand, what were you doing on turn 1 and 2 yourself?
If you're going to keep a hand that does nothing until turn 3 in modern, that's never going to be a great recipe in the format.
All the suggestions about cards invalidating discard seem like very one-sided arguments. You're arguing from the side that feels you should have the ability to completely shut down discard at minimal deck construction cost. That's pretty brutal for the player who chooses to play discard in their deck as a way to interact with their opponent. Cavern of Souls is a very good magic card but it has significant downside.
Discard is good when you're looking it through the lens of being a play you can make on turn 1 or 2. It gets much worse as the game goes by. Countermagic gets better as the game goes on. It's like saying we should ban Aether Vial or Birds of Paradise because their impact when played on turn 1 is too high.
In what situation do you lose the game to a combo deck playing discard in modern? If your opponent is playing a combo deck and is spending all of their mana on attacking your hand, that means they are not setting up their combo. What are you doing while they're doing that?
I just wanted to chime in on this, as I think there is a slight misunderstanding about Stoneforge Mystic's power level.
First, I would say that U/W decks would absolutely be happy to adopt Stoneforge Mystic into their list. It's not exactly "clogging up their list" to add 6-12 cards to the deck to support a SFM engine. It's more like "enhancing their list with a dozen more powerful cards than they previously had access to". Even with just 4 Snapcaster, 4 Stoneforge, and 2 Equipments, it's a very compact and tidy package that covers your finishers as well as your card advantage. But in truth, we know from experience that the Stoneforge engine is powerful enough to warp entire FORMATS around it, which means that one person tries it, someone else wins with it, and by week 3 everyone else is figuring out how to beat 'em or join 'em. By week 5, all the smart kids have joined.
Point is, U/W would happily play a SFM package, as would Abzan, as would Esper, Naya, and various other existing shells. Which of those would end up on top is certainly a mystery, but I'm sure Abzan and U/W would be top contenders given their current power level. Adding SFM wouldn't diversify anything, it would just become the new engine that the metagame revolves around. And I'm not even taking into account the fact that ThopterSword is legal now, and would love to play in the sandbox with our favorite Kor Artificer.
Comparing Steelshaper's Gift to SFM is unjust. Steelshaper's Gift is not a 2-for-1, and does not provide a body for your equipment that can also cheat said equipment into play. If it did, people would play it.
I also want to chime in on Mental Misstep. I was active in Legacy when the card was legal, and it was an unfun time. Everything was warped around it, and while that allowed a few cool decks to actually shine (like Natural Order RUG/Bant and 1-drop Zoo), overall the format was pretty bad. I could wax more about why this was the case, but the gist of it was that everyone was trying to play Misstep, but the only decks that truly benefited from it were control decks that were already trying to answer everything on the stack. I'd rather see them reprint Daze for Modern than to let Misstep back in.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
(For what it's worth I largely agree with you) While that would generally be true Negate and Countersquall are still cards. You would lessen interaction through discard, but potentially promote it through counters.
I also would have to question which combo decks can afford a tapped land that they basically can't tap till going off? Ad Nauseum is the only one that springs to mind and I'm not sure it wants more tapped lands that don't dig? (don't play AN not sure)
Storm certainly needs it's mana each turn.
I do think the type of effect I described might be more control/midrange playable than combo playable.(But then it's all entirely hypothetical)
I have no doubt that this is what happened when it was in Standard, but Modern is a different format. Things that warp Standard don't always warp Modern. Emrakul tPE, Reflector Mage, and Smuggler's Copter see practically no play in Modern. Saheeli combo is very borderline on being Modern playable. And we have actual proof that SFM doesn't warp every format it's in, because it's just barely even playable in Legacy these days.
The best case scenario for SFM is a turn 3 Batterskull, assuming that a creature that dies to every removal spell in the format can survive a turn. Is a turn 3 4/4 lifelink vigilance really more powerful than some of the stuff the DS decks are doing? Is it more powerful than Dredge dumping 10 power on the board on turn 2? Is it more powerful than Revolt Zoo putting 10 hastey power on the board on turn 1? The fact is that SFM's best play is not the most powerful thing you can do in Modern. It's good, and would certainly see play, but I have a hard time believing SFM would be broken, especially as long as DS decks still exist.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
The format is doing fairly well so now it's a bunch of players discussing thoughtseize being broken and entertaining mental misstep?
It sounds like you guys ran out of things to talk about---I truly believe that WOTC is way too preoccupied fixing standard that modern will not see any significant changes until December, minus something new or oppressive being discovered.
SFM would be awesome to be unbanned, but I've given up on that until I see it happen, WOTC has shown no interest in major decesions like that.
Unlikely to happen as Red/Blue are the ally colors of black. That's why most of the cards on that list are Green/White.
http://modernnexus.com/analyzing-april-24th-banlist-announcement/
I think there's a lot to be gleaned from Aaron's text. Notable takeaways:
- Death's Shadow decks are safe unless the metagame shifts so that deck diversity plummets
- A U/W unban is likely in the next announcement or two if those colors continue to put up miserable results
- Wizards cares about Modern and is taking the community's cries for transparency seriously
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Wait, so you're going to overlook nearly 7 years of Stoneblade being a Tier 1 deck in Legacy as evidence that it's not playable in that format? Yikes. Stoneforge is still played in Legacy, even if it's not at it's Tier 1 dominance. And now that Top is banned and Miracles stands to fall from grace, it's pretty likely that Stoneblade regains a good share of the metagame again.
I have no doubt that after a few years and perhaps a few other unbans (Bloodbraid and Twin as examples), the Stoneblade package would prove to be "fine" in modern. I was simply reminding Bizzycola, and the thread in general, not to overlook Stoneforge Mystic's power.
Your specific questions are subjective, but I will still respond to them:
Batterskull on turn 3 is definitely going to be a brick wall for many Death's Shadow decks, and the card advantage helps against their Plan B attrition strategy as well. More powerful? subjective. Good enough to be playable against them? Absolutely.
Similarly, having a Batterskull in play to gain life and eat Zombies from Dredge each turn is one of the best ways I can think of to stabilize, short of SB-level stuff like Anger of the Gods. It's not great, but it's better than just trying to race or block with a 4/5 that doesn't have lifelink or vigilance. Same goes for Revolt Zoo. I play that deck, and while it's possible to get through a brick wall lifelinker on turn 3, you need a serious nut draw to do it. Without a very aggressive start and a copy of Atarka's Command, I'd be in serious trouble against T3 'Skull.
And in all the grindy attrition matches, Stoneforge is going to shine. Against most combo, she's probably too clunky, but if it's your only threat and the rest of your deck can interact with said combo deck, she's still serviceable.
I'd be happy to see Stoneforge come off. I don't think she's too overpowered, and I agree that Modern is a different format than Legacy or Caw-Blade Standard was. But that doesn't mean she isn't powerful enough to warp the metagame around her, even if that effect is somewhat temporary. I'd rather see Stoneforge come off than something like Misstep. And while I think SFM would also boost decks like Abzan, it would probably help U/W/x more than anything else, which would be an improvement in color balance for sure. Just don't overlook the fact that she dominated Standard alongside her best friend Jace until they were both banned, and was the #1 deck in Legacy for years. If she gets released into Modern, you better be ready to beat her or join her.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Yes but it weren't interactive decks that gained popularity, it was mainly stuff like Dredge, Storm and Affinity. UW control also(as expected)so far didn't live up to its hype.
The metagame is becoming more linear again similar to the state before the recent bannings, except that Death's Shadow has replaced the much slower traditional BGx and made the format even faster.
So far it looks like bans aren't the answer when it comes to making the format less linear, I really hope that at least Stoneforge Mystic will be unbanned soon.
I don't see how you can claim that the batterskull is going to be a brickwall. With 8 discard spells, there is a good chance that Shadow decks can snipe the BS out of the Stoneforge Player's hand, leaving them with a "value squire". If you don't have one of the 8 discard spells, a fatal push or k-command can take out the SFM and/or BS. So Shadow decks have 12 one-mana answers, which doesn't even include just attacking through with a huge shadow or goyf. Not only do shadow decks already play tons of answers maindeck, but even their threats just outclass the best-case scenario. Maybe grabbing sword of feast and famine in some places will make sense, but then the same cards answer that one as well.
If bskull stonewalls dredge, that is upside. White should have good tools against a deck like dredge. That being said, dredge will have options to address the card (ancient grudge for example).
In revolt Zoo's case, the deck has a decent number of turn 3 wins that go under SFM. You point out yourself that Atarka's command is a blowout even if things go right for the Stoneblade deck.
It seems like all the decks that are threatened the most by SFM already play maindeck hate for the card. The fact that SFM has never had a chance in the format is just further evidence that all this fear over the card is misplaced. Maybe when the format started the tools didn't exist to reign it in. However, the fact that Kolaghan's Command sees maindeck play and answers a fully resolved SFM is a pretty good reason to believe it will be fine. If SFM sees too much play, K-command and ancient grudge will control her.
SFM is safe now, no matter her history. There is not any coherent rationale for her to continue to be on the banlist given the cardpool as it exists now.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I mean, it turns out that banning probe didnt hurt affinity at all and making dredge mill 1.5 less per turn didn't do much and amalgam was the correct ban? Affinity and dredge rising to the top has nothing to do with deaths shadow decks yet all that has been discussed in here is whether we should ban Thoughtseize or if just hitting street wraith is enough
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I agree with pretty much everything here other than the interpretation of "easy change." Perhaps I am allowing my personal biases to intervene, but I view this statement as working with large amounts of known information, pointing directly at Splinter Twin. All other options are either unknown quantities (Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic) or cards Wizards seems to have expressed direct hatred for (Preordain and other "good" cantrips).
While I fully agree that Jace and SFM would not be broken, Wizards doesn't test for the format and makes these decisions on gut feelings that may or may not be swayed by collected data. There is no data on SFM or Jace in Modern, so that decision needs to be made entirely on feeling and intuition and whatever half-hearted testing they pretend to do. While I would embrace both these cards with open arms and be thrilled to see them, nothing they have said or done indicates they would ever put these in Modern.
And that brings me back to Twin. It was a deck that was never broken, never truly oppressive, and really stretches definition of "diversity killer" considering the massive health and diversity among T1 and T2 decks throughout the year leading up to its ban. It's a known quantity with years of data that could easily and safely be inserted into the current metagame that has multiple poor matchups in current top tier decks. Plus, this would inadvertently boost UW decks because they can beat up on Eldrazi, Death's Shadow, AND Twin. So that would boost "control" in general, in addition to returning the iconic combo/tempo/control deck to the format. The other "easy" change could be swapping Twin for Exarch, which has been discussed multiple times for both weakening the deck overall and splintering it (lol) into distinct and different variations with specific advantages and drawbacks, but all objectively weaker than old UR builds.
Again, I may be reading into the words with Twin tinted glasses, but I have a hard time rationalizing Wizards releasing some of these other cards. They have been adamantly condemned multiple times as "having a grave" in Modern, even if they could be beneficial to the format as a whole. That doesn't strike me as an "easy choice," and I could be completely wrong, but it's hard for me to imagine Wizards seeing Jace/SFM/Preordain as "easy choices" based on their own actions and statements.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
So, with an eventual unban on twin, more control deck should be viable.
I think that at the moment, death shadow is the police deck in modern, just like twin was a long time ago, but with twibn, lightning bolt was a live card, so the quantity of control decks viable were bigger. Now, that bolt doesnt kill anything relevant, the only control deck alive is uw
Sorry for my english. Not native speaker
Perhaps "brick wall" was the wrong term. "Problematic obstacle" might be better. I wasn't trying to say that Death's shadow decks would suffer against SFM, just that the two strategies are comparably powerful. Death's Shadow still needs to win through damage, and while they can easily overrun or deal with a 4/4 vig, lifelinker, it's still a problem for them if they can't. Discard is an answer to everything sure. And Kcommand is a brilliant response to SFM in general. But that doesn't mean SFM just folds to DS. Just that they will interact with each other, and probably a lot. Spell pierce and dispel are cards after all.
More devolving into minor battles about card interaction (a fruitless exercise), but I'll still bite: My point about Revolt Zoo was that things need to go right for the Zoo deck in order to beat turn 3 Skull. Almost no deck in the format can beat a nut draw from Revolt Zoo that culminates in an Atarka's Command on turn 3. But the fundamental flaw of that deck is their inconsistency. The type of hands that beat Turn 3 Batterskull are the types of hands that beat almost any resistance. But the mediocre and medium hands are what count, and I can tell you that for the average game that doesn't involve nut draws, Turn 3 Batterskull is a big problem for many aggro decks. Drawing a single SFM isn't a "nut draw", it's pretty average. Drawing the exact 8 cards that beat it is a much harder feat. Which is fine. We would lose some aggro. I'm sure Burn would still be fine, as would some variation of CoCo. Revolt might suffer but it's only Tier 2/3 anyway.
Again, the whole point was simply to say, don't underestimate SFM. I'm not saying she would be an issue. In fact, I already stated that I think she would be fine right now. It's been a long time coming, but I do think the format in its current state could handle SFM reasonably well. U/W decks would likely stand to gain the most, and they could certainly use the boost. But I know for a fact that some of the same people complaining about Death's Shadow right now would be back here after Mystic's return, arguing about how oppressive she has become. It's the circle of life here. I was just trying to inject some logic, and remind people that balanced or not, Stoneforge is still a force to be reckoned with, and not some clunky package that doesn't jive with existing U/W deck, as was suggested by Bizzycola on the previous page.
No need to keep this particular argument going though. I basically agree with everyone if the line is "Stoneforge should be heavily considered to come off the ban list". We could talk about theoretical interactions for pages, but I'm not interested in doing that. It's all speculation anyway. The bottom line is that Stoneforge is more than playable in this format, which is why we're even discussing it being unbanned. I'm also strongly of the opinion that the format is relatively fine right now, and doesn't need a shakeup just yet. But I would put Stoneforge on my list of cards I'd like to see considered for freedom, alongside Jace, Twin, and BBE.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I couldn't have said it better myself! I played blade in legacy and I think I lost one game to burn. Bskull is tough to beat and that's what you fetch 90% of the time. Don't forget, the stoneblade players get to play with permission too! A nice combo was Stoneblade->get sword->they kill stoneforge you cast lingering souls and suit up. I'd say stoneforge is right on the cusp of being safe in modern but it would certainly be a pillar of the format.
Anyone else think Preordain would be better for control than combo? Control is all about hitting land drops and serum visions isn't very good at providing that.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy