Which is why I want a strong permission card, and leave TS alone
But we should agree at least that TS is incredibly powerful. Being on the receiving end of Turn 1 TS/IoK, Turn 2 a follow-up TS/IoK, I can tell you that the game is nearly over at that point, in many situations. Imagine mulling to 6 or 5 and then getting seized. Luckily we only have one card like TS. Everything else has varying limitations. Though I find IoK more powerful in many situations as well considering the average card cost in the format.
I tend to have a problem with discard in general, not because I think it shouldnt exist, but because too many players underestimate its potency, and yet turn around and complain about permission being too strong.
I'd like strong permission too. It's things like not printing a real miscalculation or punting on a revolt counterspell that gets me so frustrated w/ wizards.
Even though I'm quite happy with where the format is at right now, there is always room for improvement. I'm not sure what the answer to improving the format is, but I'm fairly certain it isn't more bannings. Regardless of whether or not people think the DS decks are stronger than their meta % actually indicates, the numbers just aren't there, at least not yet.
Not that I want to bring that up again, but since someone else did! I think TS is not oppressive like other cards in the format, but it is exactly the kind of card that most players underestimate its power level. TS is stronger than any permission in Modern. 2 Life is NOTHING compared to derailing an opponents first few turns. That, coupled with absolute knowledge of what your opponent has in hand, makes for one of the most powerful turn 1 plays you can make in the format.
That being said, I dont see TS getting banned any time soon because it does not throttle any deck into Tier 1 on its own. If anything, Id prefer using TS as a reason for allowing stronger blue permission into modern.
Stronger blue permission is even less likely now, especially when they skinned the Miracles deck alive with this announcement. If they won't even tolerate the only control deck in the game with a banning, the chances are even lower now for strong counterspell reprints. And even if they do, expect it to be mythic rarity because WOTC is a business that cares about profits first. I wouldn't be surprised if Modern Masters 3 had fetchlands in them just because they needed to hit their quarterly numbers to appease their shareholders.
Miracles was overtly (1/3rds - 2/3rs at times) the best deck in that format. They killed it off due to top time constraints and power. They didnt kill off permission... they killed off top.
that announcement says top wont come off our banlist... not they hate control.
I don't have reason to believe that they like control, especially when they printed inferior permission named Censor in Amonkhet. Sure they didn't directly say that they hate control, but they didn't convince me that control is going to have a brighter future in Magic as a tier 1 contender.
Still while printing a "weak in your eyes" card isn't a good example of some design team saying "Yeah we hate control, lets shaft em again," isnt a good argument; correlation still does not equal causation.
The reasons they banned a card in a completely different format while letting some of the best control cards like daze, counterspell, force of will, and brain storm... has nothing to do with controls state in modern. Going for that argument is conspiracy theorist at best. A pure fact that is harder to argue is "Miracles was THE dominate deck in that format, for a long time, what easily killing off arggo, which it chouldnt have been, and top was leading to time constraint issues."
Dont mix the issues because it weakens the very real statement of "control is weak in modern" and makes it easier to dismiss that.
Not that I want to bring that up again, but since someone else did! I think TS is not oppressive like other cards in the format, but it is exactly the kind of card that most players underestimate its power level. TS is stronger than any permission in Modern. 2 Life is NOTHING compared to derailing an opponents first few turns. That, coupled with absolute knowledge of what your opponent has in hand, makes for one of the most powerful turn 1 plays you can make in the format.
That being said, I dont see TS getting banned any time soon because it does not throttle any deck into Tier 1 on its own. If anything, Id prefer using TS as a reason for allowing stronger blue permission into modern.
Stronger blue permission is even less likely now, especially when they skinned the Miracles deck alive with this announcement. If they won't even tolerate the only control deck in the game with a banning, the chances are even lower now for strong counterspell reprints. And even if they do, expect it to be mythic rarity because WOTC is a business that cares about profits first. I wouldn't be surprised if Modern Masters 3 had fetchlands in them just because they needed to hit their quarterly numbers to appease their shareholders.
Miracles was overtly (1/3rds - 2/3rs at times) the best deck in that format. They killed it off due to top time constraints and power. They didnt kill off permission... they killed off top.
that announcement says top wont come off our banlist... not they hate control.
I don't have reason to believe that they like control, especially when they printed inferior permission named Censor in Amonkhet. Sure they didn't directly say that they hate control, but they didn't convince me that control is going to have a brighter future in Magic as a tier 1 contender.
Still while printing a "weak in your eyes" card isn't a good example of some design team saying "Yeah we hate control, lets shaft em again," isnt a good argument; correlation still does not equal causation.
The reasons they banned a card in a completely different format while letting some of the best control cards like daze, counterspell, force of will, and brain storm... has nothing to do with controls state in modern. Going for that argument is conspiracy theorist at best. A pure fact that is harder to argue is "Miracles was THE dominate deck in that format, for a long time, what easily killing off arggo, which it chouldnt have been, and top was leading to time constraint issues."
Dont mix the issues because it weakens the very real statement of "control is weak in modern" and makes it easier to dismiss that.
Well I still have no reason to believe Control is going to get better in Modern. Whether it is related to WOTC these decisions or not, I've waited 18 months too long for a good control deck in Modern.
Which is why I want a strong permission card, and leave TS alone
But we should agree at least that TS is incredibly powerful. Being on the receiving end of Turn 1 TS/IoK, Turn 2 a follow-up TS/IoK, I can tell you that the game is nearly over at that point, in many situations. Imagine mulling to 6 or 5 and then getting seized. Luckily we only have one card like TS. Everything else has varying limitations. Though I find IoK more powerful in many situations as well considering the average card cost in the format.
I tend to have a problem with discard in general, not because I think it shouldnt exist, but because too many players underestimate its potency, and yet turn around and complain about permission being too strong.
I'd like strong permission too. It's things like not printing a real miscalculation or punting on a revolt counterspell that gets me so frustrated w/ wizards.
Even though I'm quite happy with where the format is at right now, there is always room for improvement. I'm not sure what the answer to improving the format is, but I'm fairly certain it isn't more bannings. Regardless of whether or not people think the DS decks are stronger than their meta % actually indicates, the numbers just aren't there, at least not yet.
Edit: miscalculation*
Ds numbers have only been on the decline since it's breakout performances as well, so by the looks of it the ds decks will settle in a healthy place in the meta as long as no new technology is dug up from the dark depths of gatherer
Ds numbers have only been on the decline since it's breakout performances as well, so by the looks of it the ds decks will settle in a healthy place in the meta as long as no new technology is dug up from the dark depths of gatherer
I agree. The DS decks are incredibly well tuned and difficult to beat, but it isn't as if modern doesn't have a ton of experience surviving turn 1 thoughtseize, turn 2 goyf, turn 3 TS/Liliana.
It is, but I would say that's in spite of the weakness of blue answers in the format. It's doing well because it's really well positioned; UW Control is the best deck against DS decks. If DS gets banned, UW Control goes away.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
It is, but I would say that's in spite of the weakness of blue answers in the format. It's doing well because it's really well positioned; UW Control is the best deck against DS decks. If DS gets banned, UW Control goes away.
I foresee As Foretold making a splash in UW come next week.
(can I get credit for that subtle play on words? :))
No, because Foresee has only seen modern play in U/R combo decks. ~Lantern
well, i thought about banning thoughtseize too, but maybe is not a good idea. I mean, duress has the same ability to keep combo decks in check, but TS has been on modern for so long... we dont even know how the format as a whole could react to that change
well, i thought about banning thoughtseize too, but maybe is not a good idea. I mean, duress has the same ability to keep combo decks in check, but TS has been on modern for so long... we dont even know how the format as a whole could react to that change
Duress can hold some combos in check but, not all of them. And that isn't the problem. The problem is that duress is a SB card that is terrible in some matchups. The problem isn't that decks couldn't slow down combo, the problem would be that the decks that do hurt combo get worse against everything else.
Thoughtseize leaving the format would make permission more playable even without additional, better permission spells being printed. Thoughtseize is what makes playing blue unnecessary in Modern. If it didn't exist, Black disruption would still be good because of Inquisition, but would have a hole in their gameplan against 4+ cc threats that would incentivize either more conditional hand destruction like Duress (if an expensive spell deck became a thing) or true permission to address. Right now the 8+ selective discard decks can line up their Inquisitions against your early plays and their 4 Thoughtseize against your expensive bombs you had in your opening hand or drew early (because how many bombs can any non-ramp deck in Modern play? not many more than 4). The only hole in the plan is your topdecks and card filtering effects, but card filtering in Modern is intentionally kept weak.
Of course there are risks. Thoughtseize is used in bigger formats to address combo, but combo in Modern is already held under pretty tight wraps. I don't think we need Thoughtseize for combo.
An alternative would be to make card filtering/selection better (Preordain unban) which many here advocate for, and while I agree Preordain wouldn't break the format, I suspect banning Thoughtseize at the end of the day would be more interesting and make a better format.
I'm curious: is it possible that the meta is and will continue to adapt to DSJ and DSG? It sounds like this is the case. It should be the case since, while capable of explosive games, there isn't anything inherently broken in either deck.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
The cat ban was gonna happen. Glad they got it out of the way before the next announcement. Although WOtC once again fails miserably at following their own criteria...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I guess Splinter Twin is never happening in Modern now...
I tweeted at AF about exactly that because the verbiage used in this announcement sounds very grim. I don't expect a reply, but it's pretty disheartening considering how safe the deck would be in today's meta (and even MORE safe it would be with a corresponding Deceiver Exarch ban).
Seriously this is ridiculous. There's nothing stopping them from banning anything they want anytime as an "addendum" to a previous announcement.
I think it's hilarious myself. There's 5 paper formats. Standard, Modern, Legacy, Vintage, and EDH. Out of those 5, the top deck in 4 of them all just got banned out of the format. The only format which didn't suffer this fate was the "ban" format... Modern.
I'm fine with the Standard ban, it was obvious that it should have been banned on the regular announcement, but they were afraid of further hurting consumer confidence. Turns out that inaction hurt it even more than banning would have, so I'm glad they weren't afraid to walk back their decision.
In other news, we also now know that pizza is the best way to bribe them. We need to start sending them pizza with "unban Preordain and SFM" written on the inside, lol.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Seriously this is ridiculous. There's nothing stopping them from banning anything they want anytime as an "addendum" to a previous announcement.
I think it's hilarious myself. There's 5 paper formats. Standard, Modern, Legacy, Vintage, and EDH. Out of those 5, the top deck in 4 of them all just got banned out of the format. The only format which didn't suffer this fate was the "ban" format... Modern.
Not this time, but it's basically a staple of our format. Wizards is rolling out the full salt-the-earth policy...
I guess Splinter Twin is never happening in Modern now...
I tweeted at AF about exactly that because the verbiage used in this announcement sounds very grim. I don't expect a reply, but it's pretty disheartening considering how safe the deck would be in today's meta (and even MORE safe it would be with a corresponding Deceiver Exarch ban).
Every time I tell myself I won't get involved in a Splinter Twin argument, and without fail... I get pulled back in.
Twin was fine when it was in Standard, but that's because that Standard format had answers and other decks on a comparable power level. It's recent design philosophy that's the only reason Saheli had to be banned in Standard... they keep printing threats without answers.
I don't think this really means anything for Twin in the grand scheme of things. Twin was good, I don't think anyone questions that but it could also probably come back, or at minimum a swap ban with Exarch. Or, we can patiently wait for a couple years. Wizards will eventually realize their mistake with removal, and start printing better answers again (Push not withstanding). At which point Twin will definitely be safe.
Wizards will eventually realize their mistake with removal, and start printing better answers again (Push not withstanding). At which point Twin will definitely be safe.
They banned Saheeli in Standard, Twin in Modern, Miracles in Legacy, and Mentor in Legacy. Wizards hates spells, hates control, hates blue cards, and hates combos. In their perfect world, we would have big dumb creatures smashing into each other turn after turn, just like Hearthstone.
I'd like strong permission too. It's things like not printing a real miscalculation or punting on a revolt counterspell that gets me so frustrated w/ wizards.
Even though I'm quite happy with where the format is at right now, there is always room for improvement. I'm not sure what the answer to improving the format is, but I'm fairly certain it isn't more bannings. Regardless of whether or not people think the DS decks are stronger than their meta % actually indicates, the numbers just aren't there, at least not yet.
Edit: miscalculation*
Affinity
Death & Taxes
Mardu Nahiri
Forcing people to merge with twitch is stupid
Still while printing a "weak in your eyes" card isn't a good example of some design team saying "Yeah we hate control, lets shaft em again," isnt a good argument; correlation still does not equal causation.
The reasons they banned a card in a completely different format while letting some of the best control cards like daze, counterspell, force of will, and brain storm... has nothing to do with controls state in modern. Going for that argument is conspiracy theorist at best. A pure fact that is harder to argue is "Miracles was THE dominate deck in that format, for a long time, what easily killing off arggo, which it chouldnt have been, and top was leading to time constraint issues."
Dont mix the issues because it weakens the very real statement of "control is weak in modern" and makes it easier to dismiss that.
Well I still have no reason to believe Control is going to get better in Modern. Whether it is related to WOTC these decisions or not, I've waited 18 months too long for a good control deck in Modern.
Ds numbers have only been on the decline since it's breakout performances as well, so by the looks of it the ds decks will settle in a healthy place in the meta as long as no new technology is dug up from the dark depths of gatherer
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I agree. The DS decks are incredibly well tuned and difficult to beat, but it isn't as if modern doesn't have a ton of experience surviving turn 1 thoughtseize, turn 2 goyf, turn 3 TS/Liliana.
Affinity
Death & Taxes
Mardu Nahiri
Forcing people to merge with twitch is stupid
It is, but I would say that's in spite of the weakness of blue answers in the format. It's doing well because it's really well positioned; UW Control is the best deck against DS decks. If DS gets banned, UW Control goes away.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I foresee As Foretold making a splash in UW come next week.
(can I get credit for that subtle play on words? :))
No, because Foresee has only seen modern play in U/R combo decks. ~Lantern
Edit:
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Duress can hold some combos in check but, not all of them. And that isn't the problem. The problem is that duress is a SB card that is terrible in some matchups. The problem isn't that decks couldn't slow down combo, the problem would be that the decks that do hurt combo get worse against everything else.
Of course there are risks. Thoughtseize is used in bigger formats to address combo, but combo in Modern is already held under pretty tight wraps. I don't think we need Thoughtseize for combo.
An alternative would be to make card filtering/selection better (Preordain unban) which many here advocate for, and while I agree Preordain wouldn't break the format, I suspect banning Thoughtseize at the end of the day would be more interesting and make a better format.
OMG WTF is going on in this circus mess of a ban committee!?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
I tweeted at AF about exactly that because the verbiage used in this announcement sounds very grim. I don't expect a reply, but it's pretty disheartening considering how safe the deck would be in today's meta (and even MORE safe it would be with a corresponding Deceiver Exarch ban).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I think it's hilarious myself. There's 5 paper formats. Standard, Modern, Legacy, Vintage, and EDH. Out of those 5, the top deck in 4 of them all just got banned out of the format. The only format which didn't suffer this fate was the "ban" format... Modern.
In other news, we also now know that pizza is the best way to bribe them. We need to start sending them pizza with "unban Preordain and SFM" written on the inside, lol.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Not this time, but it's basically a staple of our format. Wizards is rolling out the full salt-the-earth policy...
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Every time I tell myself I won't get involved in a Splinter Twin argument, and without fail... I get pulled back in.
Twin was fine when it was in Standard, but that's because that Standard format had answers and other decks on a comparable power level. It's recent design philosophy that's the only reason Saheli had to be banned in Standard... they keep printing threats without answers.
I don't think this really means anything for Twin in the grand scheme of things. Twin was good, I don't think anyone questions that but it could also probably come back, or at minimum a swap ban with Exarch. Or, we can patiently wait for a couple years. Wizards will eventually realize their mistake with removal, and start printing better answers again (Push not withstanding). At which point Twin will definitely be safe.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Lets send them cakes with pictures of Jace, the Mind Sculptor on them with the words "unban".
They banned Saheeli in Standard, Twin in Modern, Miracles in Legacy, and Mentor in Legacy. Wizards hates spells, hates control, hates blue cards, and hates combos. In their perfect world, we would have big dumb creatures smashing into each other turn after turn, just like Hearthstone.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate