I've never played a game of Modern but I want to start. However I like to build (brew) decks myself, that is why I like MTG. I've never got another persons list and played it. Whether this is good or bad I'm not sure, but I really don't want to start.
I do watch videos of game play of Modern from pros so have some ideas of tiered decks, but honestly I have no idea how cards and strategies match up and fair.
Anyway can I get people with experience to tell me if this deck is functional to the current state of Modern? Functional meaning that I'm at least in with a chance of winning against the spread of decks?
The idea is to get an early tempo and keep it. Cheap creature removal and using Kari Zev's Expertise to get the small 2 powered creatures (Snap Caster, Young Pyromancer and its tokens) have a window to get in damage, against the bigger creatures of the format (Eldazi, black delve and Tarmogoyf). Kari Zev's Expertise is the tempo card to cast hopefully Ancestral Vision, Izzet Charm, Manamorphose as value. Manamorphose maybe weak? But I like the idea of tempo, but any 2 casting card to replace these is appreciated. I don't think I want the fuse cards, I don't want to be all in on the Kari Zev's Expertise for cards to function. But this might be incorrect? The Greater Gargadon to sacrifice the creature taken with Kari Zev's Expertise. You want at least 1 of these every game with Kari Zev's Expertise, so I'm wondering if I should play more? But then drawing 2 is terrible.
The Blood/Magus Moon package to potential make decks stumble (rather than lock out) and running the 4x Simian Spirit Guide so that these cards (and Kari Zev's Expertise) are good on turn 2. I think the Izzet Charm are important against matchups where the Blood Moons are not good, to cycle to new cards.
Removing these cards due to advice.
2x Manamorphose
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Magus of the Moon
1x Greater Gargadon
2x Cavern of Souls
So 9 cards to slot!
Feel free to rip this deck apart, I really don't know where things stand But I do want to make a deck that isn't just a Net Deck, but is still good.
The lands I'm not sure about. I want more fetch-lands for the Delver, but between Red and Blue not sure what I should play? So in the end I just have the 1 Flooded Strand to compliment the Scalding Tarns. Any ideas on type and numbers I could play?
Tell me what decks rip this strategy apart?
I'm looking forward to seeing how helpful the Modern community is
I think your deck looks like it's trying to do too many things at once. You try to ramp, want to tempo with delver, lock out with moon, chain cantrips, etc etc. It looks very unfocused.
The reason for the Blood Moon is that the decks looks weak to Tron and Scapeshift otherwise.
Do you think the Simian Spirit Guide are too much? In my mind the Kari Zev's Expertise + Ancestral Vision seems like its enough to warrant early card disadvantage, but no? I guess I'm hedging too much against Tron, feeling like Blood Moon is only good if you can get it down turn 2 against their turn 3 natural tron.
Why the Gargadon? A deck really needs to have a sac outlet, one that can eat more than just creatures, to justify it. It does nothing else for you when suspended, takes forever to come in without lots of fodder, and isn't that hard to deal with once it actually enters the battlefield. It's literally a dead card without expertise. Heck, it might still not do anything worthwhile for you anyways.
Simian spirit guide should never, ever end up outside decks that need the extra mana badly. I'm talking about decks that can resolve a key card and win on the spot, like Living End, Ad Nauseam, and Goryo's Vengeance. A cute expertise-AV combo is not sufficient.
Manamorphose is another baffling inclusion. Storm needs to make every spell count, but Delver and Pyromancer work best with spells that actually do something. At least Serum Visions has that nifty scry attached to flip Delver.
Blood Moon is a fine sideboard card, but an utterly inappropriate card in the main of a tempo strategy. The fact that you admitted that it's there for two matchups supports that. Magus of the Moon shouldn't even be here at all. Tron decks run Pyroclasm, y'know.
Lastly on the list of cards that shouldn't be here is Cavern of Souls. For 2/3 of your deck it might as well be a Wastes, for heaven's sake. It's actually worse than running a land that ETB tapped. Swap it for Spirebluff Canal.
The Gargadon is for making sure Eldrazi and the bigger creatures of the format are removed for good with Kari Zev's Expertise. But other than Kari Zev's Expertise and incremental value of removed creatures from opponents spells, no other value.
I've looked at a tournament winning U/R Delver deck and it runs just 2 Blood Moons main. I sort of had it in my head that having the Simian Spirit Guide and Magus of the Moon are at least 2/2 creatures in matchups where they don't do anything, but I guess just too weak and slow for the format to be used in this way. Pyroclasm is a blowout for sure. I've watch some Modern games, but I have no real idea how sideboards run, etc. Hence all this good advice
Manamorphose was a filler for sure, was hoping somebody could mention a 2 mana card for tempo value?
Cavern of Souls was just hedging bets that there was some sort of heavy counterspell meta, but I guess not.
So going to remove:
2x Magus of the Moon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Manamorphose
1x Greater Gargadon
2x Cavern of Soul
The tough thing with just going UR but wanting good interaction with Kari Zev's Expertise is that counterspells sit kind of awkwardly. If you are okay having cards that can't be cast off Expertise, though, Spell Snare and Remand make for some good tempo plays. If not, maybe something like Vapor Snag? Electrolyze also seems good here but has too high cmc. Forked Bolt is a card that came to mind too.
Also keep in mind you want a certain spell density to reliably flip Delver of Secrets. I also prefer more fetches and less shocks personally, since it can provide a pseudo-scry with Delver.
You probably also want a few more cmc1 spells, since it allows you to play Young Pyromancer on turn 3 and cast a spell the same turn, to guarantee you get some value from him.
And then if you do up the spell count, maybe Bedlam Reveler is a card worth looking at? No more than a one-of, and it might be too cute, but it seems decent.
The sad thing is, taking in too many of these suggestions pretty much turns your list into UR Delver, which might be going against what you are looking for out of the format. But maybe there is some stuff here that stands out to you
The sad thing is, taking in too many of these suggestions pretty much turns your list into UR Delver, which might be going against what you are looking for out of the format. But maybe there is some stuff here that stands out to you
Yeah thats the thing, I don't mind if the deck isn't as strong as the tier 1 or tier 2 UR delver deck, which at the moment specifically has a lot of cheap burn spells and actually Bedlam Reveler can run up to 3. Once I've got a spell count on instants and soceries, I'll make sure its at a threshold to match Delver consistent flip early. Probably one Bedlam Reveler would be strong.
Hi Darren. I really enjoyed reading your Staxx post in that Breya
thread, and was amazed at your breaking down of how Staxx worked in
that thread, and your advice on multi angled tutoring in the Kaho
Minamo Historian thread. I'm writing this to you, knowing you will be
coming to modern with an EDH only mindset.
In modern, there is no group problem solving like in EDH, so when
problems happen you can count on other people to fix them 0% of the
time. Because your opponent sure the hell won't do it. There is no
seeing things coming and time to deal with it. If you are playing
against 8 rack, and it doesn't occur to you to include leyline of sanctity
in your sideboard next tournament, you'll just continue to lose.
Also as a result of no group problem solving, and other things, resource
denial and/or mana denial/mana screw are a thing in modern. Whereas
a turn 1 blood moon in EDH may only be a soft lock, in modern it could
easily be a hard lock that will win you the game. While in EDH you
could simultaneously start killing people off before everyone draws out
of the blood moon, it's not as likely because of the all important starting
life total of 40. In modern, because fetches are popular, the effective
starting life total of your opponent is often 15 ish. Doing a "I'll trip you
up right out of the gate" strategy is kinda sucky in EDH because even
when it works their life total makes it hard to follow through and kill the
entire table.
The 99 card thing in EDH ensures that while there is a definite meta, it
is kinda muted compared to how vivid the meta is in modern. Before
you argue that any 2 cards that do a similar thing(thoughtseize,
duress) are essentially the same and therefore you can have "2" of a
card in EDH, that same redundancy is present in modern to the same
degree. So, whereas in EDH your opponents commander and
commander colors dictate what to prepare for, in modern the meta
dictates what you should prepare for. In EDH you prepare for "board
wipe" or "so and so tries to draw his whole deck" or "someone will pop
a nev disk at some point" whereas in modern you prepare for specific
cards that you *WILL* see every big tournament. Because statistically
they are heavy in the meta. So what I'm getting at, is modern is more
predictable. Sorta like in chess you have an "opener" that you practice
over and over, same in modern. A control deck's first move is likely
serum visions because it's safe to do that turn 1, you aren't gonna get
killed on turn 1 so go ahead and serum while the coast is clear. A black
deck's opening move is likely turn 1 thoughtseize... when death shadow
was popular you could count on that sh*t every time. Ouch. Hurts bad
if you are playing combo when you start the game down your best
card. Point of what I'm saying is you have to ask yourself, if you are
playing combo for example, how will I still win the game after they turn
1 thoughtseize me? Because statistically speaking, practically every
tournament you'll see certain cards ad nauseam.
As far as advice on the deck you posted, modern decks have to be
highly tuned and ultra efficient to expect to compete. Card for card,
the deck you posted looks like an inferior version of delver. Including
cards that are inferior to another similar deck isn't usually a winning
strategy. The blue cards you've included draw you cards, but if you go
against say, a red burn deck, how is that gonna keep you from getting
hit in the face with rift bolts and eidolon triggers? Some of the blue in
this deck should be counter magic, because backing up blood moon
with counter magic is a more reliable strategy in general.
Last but not least, someone pointed out that blood moon is sideboard, I agree
because burn is a decent portion of the meta, and they don't care about
blood moon, they'll just bolt you to death.
Last but not least, someone pointed out that blood moon is sideboard, I agree
because burn is a decent portion of the meta, and they don't care about
blood moon, they'll just bolt you to death.
That is wrong.
In modern, Blood moon is only good in maindeck. It is not a card you can just put into your deck, you need to have quite specific manabase for it, and when you'll play against a good opponent, he'll notice your straight UR manabase, and will play around blood boon in game 2. Fun thing is, Blood moon is not a dead card against modern burn, because it's either 2- or 3-colored deck which plays no non-mountain basics.
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I do watch videos of game play of Modern from pros so have some ideas of tiered decks, but honestly I have no idea how cards and strategies match up and fair.
Anyway can I get people with experience to tell me if this deck is functional to the current state of Modern? Functional meaning that I'm at least in with a chance of winning against the spread of decks?
The idea is to get an early tempo and keep it. Cheap creature removal and using Kari Zev's Expertise to get the small 2 powered creatures (Snap Caster, Young Pyromancer and its tokens) have a window to get in damage, against the bigger creatures of the format (Eldazi, black delve and Tarmogoyf). Kari Zev's Expertise is the tempo card to cast hopefully Ancestral Vision, Izzet Charm, Manamorphose as value. Manamorphose maybe weak? But I like the idea of tempo, but any 2 casting card to replace these is appreciated. I don't think I want the fuse cards, I don't want to be all in on the Kari Zev's Expertise for cards to function. But this might be incorrect? The Greater Gargadon to sacrifice the creature taken with Kari Zev's Expertise. You want at least 1 of these every game with Kari Zev's Expertise, so I'm wondering if I should play more? But then drawing 2 is terrible.
The Blood/Magus Moon package to potential make decks stumble (rather than lock out) and running the 4x Simian Spirit Guide so that these cards (and Kari Zev's Expertise) are good on turn 2. I think the Izzet Charm are important against matchups where the Blood Moons are not good, to cycle to new cards.
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Izzet Charm
2 Manamorphose (removing)
creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Young Pyromancer
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Greater Gargadon (removing)
4 Simian Spirit Guide (removing)
3 Blood Moon
2 Magus of the Moon (removing)
lands (18)
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
5 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
Removing these cards due to advice.
2x Manamorphose
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Magus of the Moon
1x Greater Gargadon
2x Cavern of Souls
So 9 cards to slot!
Feel free to rip this deck apart, I really don't know where things stand But I do want to make a deck that isn't just a Net Deck, but is still good.
The lands I'm not sure about. I want more fetch-lands for the Delver, but between Red and Blue not sure what I should play? So in the end I just have the 1 Flooded Strand to compliment the Scalding Tarns. Any ideas on type and numbers I could play?
Tell me what decks rip this strategy apart?
I'm looking forward to seeing how helpful the Modern community is
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
Do you think the Simian Spirit Guide are too much? In my mind the Kari Zev's Expertise + Ancestral Vision seems like its enough to warrant early card disadvantage, but no? I guess I'm hedging too much against Tron, feeling like Blood Moon is only good if you can get it down turn 2 against their turn 3 natural tron.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Simian spirit guide should never, ever end up outside decks that need the extra mana badly. I'm talking about decks that can resolve a key card and win on the spot, like Living End, Ad Nauseam, and Goryo's Vengeance. A cute expertise-AV combo is not sufficient.
Manamorphose is another baffling inclusion. Storm needs to make every spell count, but Delver and Pyromancer work best with spells that actually do something. At least Serum Visions has that nifty scry attached to flip Delver.
Blood Moon is a fine sideboard card, but an utterly inappropriate card in the main of a tempo strategy. The fact that you admitted that it's there for two matchups supports that. Magus of the Moon shouldn't even be here at all. Tron decks run Pyroclasm, y'know.
Lastly on the list of cards that shouldn't be here is Cavern of Souls. For 2/3 of your deck it might as well be a Wastes, for heaven's sake. It's actually worse than running a land that ETB tapped. Swap it for Spirebluff Canal.
The Gargadon is for making sure Eldrazi and the bigger creatures of the format are removed for good with Kari Zev's Expertise. But other than Kari Zev's Expertise and incremental value of removed creatures from opponents spells, no other value.
I've looked at a tournament winning U/R Delver deck and it runs just 2 Blood Moons main. I sort of had it in my head that having the Simian Spirit Guide and Magus of the Moon are at least 2/2 creatures in matchups where they don't do anything, but I guess just too weak and slow for the format to be used in this way. Pyroclasm is a blowout for sure. I've watch some Modern games, but I have no real idea how sideboards run, etc. Hence all this good advice
Manamorphose was a filler for sure, was hoping somebody could mention a 2 mana card for tempo value?
Cavern of Souls was just hedging bets that there was some sort of heavy counterspell meta, but I guess not.
So going to remove:
2x Magus of the Moon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Manamorphose
1x Greater Gargadon
2x Cavern of Soul
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Also keep in mind you want a certain spell density to reliably flip Delver of Secrets. I also prefer more fetches and less shocks personally, since it can provide a pseudo-scry with Delver.
You probably also want a few more cmc1 spells, since it allows you to play Young Pyromancer on turn 3 and cast a spell the same turn, to guarantee you get some value from him.
And then if you do up the spell count, maybe Bedlam Reveler is a card worth looking at? No more than a one-of, and it might be too cute, but it seems decent.
The sad thing is, taking in too many of these suggestions pretty much turns your list into UR Delver, which might be going against what you are looking for out of the format. But maybe there is some stuff here that stands out to you
Yeah thats the thing, I don't mind if the deck isn't as strong as the tier 1 or tier 2 UR delver deck, which at the moment specifically has a lot of cheap burn spells and actually Bedlam Reveler can run up to 3. Once I've got a spell count on instants and soceries, I'll make sure its at a threshold to match Delver consistent flip early. Probably one Bedlam Reveler would be strong.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
thread, and was amazed at your breaking down of how Staxx worked in
that thread, and your advice on multi angled tutoring in the Kaho
Minamo Historian thread. I'm writing this to you, knowing you will be
coming to modern with an EDH only mindset.
In modern, there is no group problem solving like in EDH, so when
problems happen you can count on other people to fix them 0% of the
time. Because your opponent sure the hell won't do it. There is no
seeing things coming and time to deal with it. If you are playing
against 8 rack, and it doesn't occur to you to include leyline of sanctity
in your sideboard next tournament, you'll just continue to lose.
Also as a result of no group problem solving, and other things, resource
denial and/or mana denial/mana screw are a thing in modern. Whereas
a turn 1 blood moon in EDH may only be a soft lock, in modern it could
easily be a hard lock that will win you the game. While in EDH you
could simultaneously start killing people off before everyone draws out
of the blood moon, it's not as likely because of the all important starting
life total of 40. In modern, because fetches are popular, the effective
starting life total of your opponent is often 15 ish. Doing a "I'll trip you
up right out of the gate" strategy is kinda sucky in EDH because even
when it works their life total makes it hard to follow through and kill the
entire table.
The 99 card thing in EDH ensures that while there is a definite meta, it
is kinda muted compared to how vivid the meta is in modern. Before
you argue that any 2 cards that do a similar thing(thoughtseize,
duress) are essentially the same and therefore you can have "2" of a
card in EDH, that same redundancy is present in modern to the same
degree. So, whereas in EDH your opponents commander and
commander colors dictate what to prepare for, in modern the meta
dictates what you should prepare for. In EDH you prepare for "board
wipe" or "so and so tries to draw his whole deck" or "someone will pop
a nev disk at some point" whereas in modern you prepare for specific
cards that you *WILL* see every big tournament. Because statistically
they are heavy in the meta. So what I'm getting at, is modern is more
predictable. Sorta like in chess you have an "opener" that you practice
over and over, same in modern. A control deck's first move is likely
serum visions because it's safe to do that turn 1, you aren't gonna get
killed on turn 1 so go ahead and serum while the coast is clear. A black
deck's opening move is likely turn 1 thoughtseize... when death shadow
was popular you could count on that sh*t every time. Ouch. Hurts bad
if you are playing combo when you start the game down your best
card. Point of what I'm saying is you have to ask yourself, if you are
playing combo for example, how will I still win the game after they turn
1 thoughtseize me? Because statistically speaking, practically every
tournament you'll see certain cards ad nauseam.
As far as advice on the deck you posted, modern decks have to be
highly tuned and ultra efficient to expect to compete. Card for card,
the deck you posted looks like an inferior version of delver. Including
cards that are inferior to another similar deck isn't usually a winning
strategy. The blue cards you've included draw you cards, but if you go
against say, a red burn deck, how is that gonna keep you from getting
hit in the face with rift bolts and eidolon triggers? Some of the blue in
this deck should be counter magic, because backing up blood moon
with counter magic is a more reliable strategy in general.
Last but not least, someone pointed out that blood moon is sideboard, I agree
because burn is a decent portion of the meta, and they don't care about
blood moon, they'll just bolt you to death.
That is wrong.
In modern, Blood moon is only good in maindeck. It is not a card you can just put into your deck, you need to have quite specific manabase for it, and when you'll play against a good opponent, he'll notice your straight UR manabase, and will play around blood boon in game 2. Fun thing is, Blood moon is not a dead card against modern burn, because it's either 2- or 3-colored deck which plays no non-mountain basics.