Bone Picker reminds me of Skin Invasion. 1 mana for an undercosted threat, but you need to kill something to unlock it. There's two problems with it. The first is that your opponent may be playing a creatureless deck. The second is that 1-drops with high power usually demand you be aggressive; ideally, you want to play your 3-power guy on turn 1 and start beating on turn 2 onwards, trying to get in as much damage as possible before it gets killed/walled by blockers. However, that's hard to do when Bone Picker and Skin Shedder won't be realistically attacking until turn 3.
You can try to get around problem 1 by playing creatures that sac themselves (e.g. Mogg Fanatic) in your deck, but that raises another problem (you're playing Mogg Fanatic in your deck). If you're in the market for 1-mana 3/2s, "play 4 Mogg Fanatics" seems like a much harsher restriction on your deck than "play 25 instants or sorceries".
An important difference from Skin Invasion is that Bone Picker flies, and that Picker can be cast as a three powered flier on an empty board for 4 mana, which isn't an awful deal. It's much more flexible.
Harsh mentor seems like a sideboard card. What decks would play it out of the board? Cause i find it hard to see it in any maindeck.. Just seems like Eidolon but worse.
The thing to keep in mind is that Harsh Mentor is wholly asymmetrical. Its ability doesn't hit every deck the same but in some cases it's a rockstar. I'm kinda curious if scapeshift could use him. Is it win more there? I know their combo usually goes off for less than 20 damage. Delver might be able to utilize the damage as well mainboard. It punishes players for playing magic. IDK, but I'm of the mind that it's a pretty solid creature and I do think it will find a main deck home.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Not saying it is good combo, but it could work that way correct? (Sorry if it has been brought up already)
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Not saying it is good combo, but it could work that way correct? (Sorry if it has been brought up already)
This works but, as you suggested, it's a bad combo.
Picker is not a good card. It's only Delver if you have a removal spell AND your opponent is playing creatures AND you cast the removal spell on your turn. Or, if your opponent blocks and loses a creature in combat. Or, you play sac creatures that no one is playing otherwise, relying on mini combos with individually weak cards that have low payoffs. Those scenarios are all highly conditional and underwhelming and won't typically work against many of Modern's best decks.
Not saying it is good combo, but it could work that way correct? (Sorry if it has been brought up already)
This works but, as you suggested, it's a bad combo.
Picker is not a good card. It's only Delver if you have a removal spell AND your opponent is playing creatures AND you cast the removal spell on your turn. Or, if your opponent blocks and loses a creature in combat. Or, you play sac creatures that no one is playing otherwise, relying on mini combos with individually weak cards that have low payoffs. Those scenarios are all highly conditional and underwhelming and won't typically work against many of Modern's best decks.
Or you are an aggro deck and you attack. Hes not as reactive as everyone seems to beleive he is.
Not saying it is good combo, but it could work that way correct? (Sorry if it has been brought up already)
This works but, as you suggested, it's a bad combo.
Picker is not a good card. It's only Delver if you have a removal spell AND your opponent is playing creatures AND you cast the removal spell on your turn. Or, if your opponent blocks and loses a creature in combat. Or, you play sac creatures that no one is playing otherwise, relying on mini combos with individually weak cards that have low payoffs. Those scenarios are all highly conditional and underwhelming and won't typically work against many of Modern's best decks.
Or you are an aggro deck and you attack. Hes not as reactive as everyone seems to beleive he is.
Gotta agree with Lantern. Creatures are dying in combat left and right in aggro and midrange matchups. If no one is blocking (or removing) your creatures, then they're getting blown out anyway. Bone Picker's evasion makes it relevant after turn 2, and it wouldn't be the end of the world to occasionally hardcast it. I think it'll show up in some decks.
A question on Faith of the Devoted and Drake Haven . . . turn 4 "drain 4 life every turn" or turn 4 "get 4 flying power every turn" too weak? (Turn 3 if you're running accel). And hey - they work with Collective Brutality ... IDK, it seems like a huge stretch
Sure. If you had told me that DSZ would lose Probe, drop Become Immense, and gain Fatal Push I would have said that Traverse would be playable. The fact is, for a good 9 months Traverse was a bad card.
I only make predictions about playability 3 months ahead. Too far out and people start to argue "what if Wizards prints a card that combos with it" or "what if Wizards bans/unbans X card, and Y card becomes playable" and I'm not going to waste my time playing what-if. Everyone has equal access to the same information after set release and ban/unban updates; if they can't get something right until the next time the card pool changes, they have no excuse.
Next time you want to call me out, try doing it after a set release or ban/unban update announcement, when we get new cards that might make me change my mind. Here, I'll even provide a template for you:
Dear izzet,
I know you said __(card)__ was unplayable when __(set)__ was released, and that has been true for __(amount of time)__. However, now that __(another card)__ has been __(printed/banned/unbanned)__, do you still feel the same way?
Traverse was never ever a bad card. It was awesome from the beggining, I called it and it was obvious. I destroyed people with my RUG Traverse already back then.
It's fine, just accept it and move on. You weren't right about Traverse and I was. You seem to have an extremely bad time accepting when you mess up, from what I see in your posts.
My point is, nobody is ever right about all the cards (Stormchaser actually I deem it as a sucess - it is key in may UR prowess decks as predicted), Leopard, definitely not.
But a 1 mana tutor that can be Snapcastered and gives you a virtual threat every time? That was a sure bet.
Is Traverse playable now? Yes it is. Was it playable 3 months after release? No it wasn't. Nahiri was way better.
I've made my stance on predicting cards very clear in this post (in particular, the fourth paragraph), and the post further up in this thread. I only do predictions 3 months out, i.e. from the release of one set till right before the release of the next.
In the case of Traverse it was the combination of Fatal Push + Probe's ban that finally made DS switch to it. Did I say Push was playable? Yes, in fact I gave it a 5/5. We all knew Probe's ban was going to change DS - it would either die off or adapt to the ban. I wonder why you, in all your infinite wisdom, did not pinpoint that as the moment that DS would pick up Traverse. In fact you predicted that Street Wraith and Mishra's Bauble would see less play after Probe was banned. I find it ironic that the same guy who said that DS would drop is now using the large presence of DS decks (which play Traverse) to support his point of Traverse being playable.
Please remember, its not about how you start, but how you end. How many people picked helix pinnacle to be a $10 card at any time in its existence? I certainly didn't. The two things it had going for it A) it says you win the game and B) it costs 1 green mana were enough to get me to buy a ps at like $2. Now there is a two card infinite life combo that seems pretty feasible in addition to the three card infinite life combo that was very feasible and they can both go into the same deck. Since there are infinite damage combos out there helix pinnacle may actually hold a bit of its value now (though I'm a bit skeptical about that).
My point is, a lot of buying specs is luck but the card has to meet criteria for luck to have a chance. In the above example of Scythe Leopard and Stormchaser mage, both cards have similar problems. 1)Both are uncommon, which means there are a lot of them around and only the absolute best uncommons really ever become worthy of spec buying(unless its for fun and you like the card of course, then hey, go nuts.) and 2) both of these cards are competing for slots already occupied by better cards. In scythe leopard's case it's actually like 2 or 3 cards maybe 4 that are just simply better in almost all applications(though if summer bloom hadn't been banned, there could have been some willy combo shenanigans there...lol) In stormchaser's instance I honestly haven't given up on it yet. While it has obvious slot conflicts with things like delver and more directly with swiftspear and YP, it does something fairly unique. I don't think its there yet but I wouldn't count it out either.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Is Traverse playable now? Yes it is. Was it playable 3 months after release? No it wasn't. Nahiri was way better.
I've made my stance on predicting cards very clear in this post (in particular, the fourth paragraph), and the post further up in this thread. I only do predictions 3 months out, i.e. from the release of one set till right before the release of the next.
RUG Delver had quite a bit of success with Traverse when it was released.
The whole three month window thing seems to be where some of the hangup is.
I look at new sets through the lens of "what do I need to remember now exists in the format going forward" rather than "will it be in top decks within the next three months" which are a lot different standards.
The whole three month window thing seems to be where some of the hangup is.
I look at new sets through the lens of "what do I need to remember now exists in the format going forward" rather than "will it be in top decks within the next three months" which are a lot different standards.
Sorry for my poor English.
May I ask what do you want to say?
I like how egos are being thrown around as if your internet card predicting cred is a thing. Whose is bigger?
Mtgsalvation, or hell maybe even the magic community at large, has a serious problem with reasonable debate. Every single spoiler season or meta discussion is filled with posters ranting and raving about what is absolutely, 100% broken in half whilst others verbally maul them over their complete and total blindness to x other cards greatness. Neither gives in an inch and, as two of the current conversationalists are proving, grudges are kept FAR too long.
Is it really that hard not to post a counterargument without demeaning the other party? Really people, its not hard :/
The whole three month window thing seems to be where some of the hangup is.
I look at new sets through the lens of "what do I need to remember now exists in the format going forward" rather than "will it be in top decks within the next three months" which are a lot different standards.
Sorry for my poor English.
May I ask what do you want to say?
What I am saying is Izzet's criteria for whether a card will see play or not may be different than the criteria used by others.
My criteria is, should I keep track of new cards for deck building purposes going forward. Izzet's is quite a bit different than that.
Reminder that banlist discussion is not allowed in this thread.
Spoiler threads are generally more free-form and open, so I understand that players may have forgotten this rule with regard to this thread. From this post onward, the rule will be enforced as needed. I have updated the OP to clarify this as well; anyone who posts about ban/unban topics after this post will be moderated accordingly. All other forum, subforum, and thread rules also apply.
Harsh Mentor is a pretty good sideboard card for Burn. It shuts off a lot of the infinite life combos that are commonly used (Finks and Melira, Archangel and Spike Feeder) and is relevant against any deck that runs Fetches. It's also not bad against Affinity, Lantern Control, and Elves. I'm not really a burn player, but I'd be surprised if it makes the cut in the main of anything other than Mono-red burn. Notably doesn't shut off CopyCat combo.
Gideon of the Trials is a very, very good sideboard card against non-interactive combo. The problem is how tight sideboards are right now. He's also weak against any sort of hybrid combo deck, like current Valakut decks or Melira Company, or decks that can divide damage, like Storm or Grishoalbrand. If we see a significant uptick in decks like Ad Nauseam or Laboratory Maniac decks, he'll make it into sideboards.
As Foretold is a difficult card to evaluate. Objectively, it breaks the rules of "fair" magic by cheating mana costs, which historically has led to some real balance problems. It's an enabler card, so you need to have other cards to make it powerful, but it's probably the strongest we've seen printed in the last couple years. You need to resolve this as early as possible to really benefit from it, but the upsides are really high. Yes, it dies to removal and Abrupt Decay is a card. The main knock against this card is that the meta is decidedly hostile to the sort of deck that can abuse this sort of effect. It's a very strong card without an obvious home.
Rhonas, the Indomitable is a very solid beatstick in Goyf or Tasigur midrange decks. I expect this to see some play. Always beating other creatures in combat is a very big upside, but lack of trample means that tokens can stall it a bit. Still, being able to give Goyfs trample is good.
Censor isn't good enough for Modern. Neat card, almost there in terms of power level, but not enough. If it had been: "UU Instant: Counter target spell unless its controller pays 3. Cycling U" I could think of a few decks that might be able to use it.
Censor: Maindeck censor proved difficult for players to play around, and when they did leave 1 open the cycling cost of censor is the same, so playing around censor being the same tempo cost as cycling the card made it quite valuable. In the Post-board games, especially on the draw, depending on the matchup some number of censor came out and opponents still tried to play around it. Censor gained a bunch of free value - although decks featuring tons of hand disruption were much better at playing around it game 1 than other decks (although again at tempo parity, so it didn't have a cost). This card pairs well with Logic Knot since the same mana represents either card, and logic knot is much closer to a hard counter than mana leak. Late game, when you won't really be getting the random 1 mana tempo value, it's not a huge cost to just cycle it away. Solid card, not great.
As Foretold: Incredible with Jace, Telepath Unbound, Restore Balance/Ancestral Vision. I'm not sure how else the card can be used though, considering you have to sorcery speed 3 mana into absolutely nothing for a turn at least (without the ancestral/balance), and even then it's just two mana max the first turn. I think this is a good addition/ replacement for Cascade mechanics in decks featuring this cycle of cards.
Gideon of the Trials: Just as good a control card as it sounds. Makes it impossible to avoid playing into sweepers. At 3 mana you can afford to play it early since it addresses the board. Great card, will see play. The fact that Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is also a great card makes the emblem a very nice asset.
I mean, the deck might just be jank, but these cards have not felt wanting.
Traverse was never ever a bad card. It was awesome from the beggining, I called it and it was obvious. I destroyed people with my RUG Traverse already back then.
It's fine, just accept it and move on. You weren't right about Traverse and I was. You seem to have an extremely bad time accepting when you mess up, from what I see in your posts.
My point is, nobody is ever right about all the cards (Stormchaser actually I deem it as a sucess - it is key in may UR prowess decks as predicted), Leopard, definitely not.
But a 1 mana tutor that can be Snapcastered and gives you a virtual threat every time? That was a sure bet.
This argument reminds me of the time Izzet went hellbent on me that Eidolon of the Great Revel would NEVER ever be played in modern. Lol.
Angel of Sanctions, and Dusk both seem to have some interesting applications. Def gonna do a lil testing with those guys
An important difference from Skin Invasion is that Bone Picker flies, and that Picker can be cast as a three powered flier on an empty board for 4 mana, which isn't an awful deal. It's much more flexible.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Couldn't you just activate the discount by also playing an X creature (Hangarback Walker Walking Ballista Endless One for zero, it dies then Bone Picker for one B mana?
Not saying it is good combo, but it could work that way correct? (Sorry if it has been brought up already)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
This works but, as you suggested, it's a bad combo.
Picker is not a good card. It's only Delver if you have a removal spell AND your opponent is playing creatures AND you cast the removal spell on your turn. Or, if your opponent blocks and loses a creature in combat. Or, you play sac creatures that no one is playing otherwise, relying on mini combos with individually weak cards that have low payoffs. Those scenarios are all highly conditional and underwhelming and won't typically work against many of Modern's best decks.
Or you are an aggro deck and you attack. Hes not as reactive as everyone seems to beleive he is.
Gotta agree with Lantern. Creatures are dying in combat left and right in aggro and midrange matchups. If no one is blocking (or removing) your creatures, then they're getting blown out anyway. Bone Picker's evasion makes it relevant after turn 2, and it wouldn't be the end of the world to occasionally hardcast it. I think it'll show up in some decks.
CG
It seems like it has potential?
Something like:
4 Street Wraith
4 Vizier of Tumbling Sands
4 Drake Haven
3 Faith of the Devoted
4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Collective Brutality
3 Thought Seize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
17 Lands
Traverse was never ever a bad card. It was awesome from the beggining, I called it and it was obvious. I destroyed people with my RUG Traverse already back then.
It's fine, just accept it and move on. You weren't right about Traverse and I was. You seem to have an extremely bad time accepting when you mess up, from what I see in your posts.
My point is, nobody is ever right about all the cards (Stormchaser actually I deem it as a sucess - it is key in may UR prowess decks as predicted), Leopard, definitely not.
But a 1 mana tutor that can be Snapcastered and gives you a virtual threat every time? That was a sure bet.
I've made my stance on predicting cards very clear in this post (in particular, the fourth paragraph), and the post further up in this thread. I only do predictions 3 months out, i.e. from the release of one set till right before the release of the next.
In the case of Traverse it was the combination of Fatal Push + Probe's ban that finally made DS switch to it. Did I say Push was playable? Yes, in fact I gave it a 5/5. We all knew Probe's ban was going to change DS - it would either die off or adapt to the ban. I wonder why you, in all your infinite wisdom, did not pinpoint that as the moment that DS would pick up Traverse. In fact you predicted that Street Wraith and Mishra's Bauble would see less play after Probe was banned. I find it ironic that the same guy who said that DS would drop is now using the large presence of DS decks (which play Traverse) to support his point of Traverse being playable.
lol
Thanks for the entertainment.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
My point is, a lot of buying specs is luck but the card has to meet criteria for luck to have a chance. In the above example of Scythe Leopard and Stormchaser mage, both cards have similar problems. 1)Both are uncommon, which means there are a lot of them around and only the absolute best uncommons really ever become worthy of spec buying(unless its for fun and you like the card of course, then hey, go nuts.) and 2) both of these cards are competing for slots already occupied by better cards. In scythe leopard's case it's actually like 2 or 3 cards maybe 4 that are just simply better in almost all applications(though if summer bloom hadn't been banned, there could have been some willy combo shenanigans there...lol) In stormchaser's instance I honestly haven't given up on it yet. While it has obvious slot conflicts with things like delver and more directly with swiftspear and YP, it does something fairly unique. I don't think its there yet but I wouldn't count it out either.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
RUG Delver had quite a bit of success with Traverse when it was released.
I look at new sets through the lens of "what do I need to remember now exists in the format going forward" rather than "will it be in top decks within the next three months" which are a lot different standards.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Sorry for my poor English.
May I ask what do you want to say?
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
Mtgsalvation, or hell maybe even the magic community at large, has a serious problem with reasonable debate. Every single spoiler season or meta discussion is filled with posters ranting and raving about what is absolutely, 100% broken in half whilst others verbally maul them over their complete and total blindness to x other cards greatness. Neither gives in an inch and, as two of the current conversationalists are proving, grudges are kept FAR too long.
Is it really that hard not to post a counterargument without demeaning the other party? Really people, its not hard :/
What I am saying is Izzet's criteria for whether a card will see play or not may be different than the criteria used by others.
My criteria is, should I keep track of new cards for deck building purposes going forward. Izzet's is quite a bit different than that.
Spoiler threads are generally more free-form and open, so I understand that players may have forgotten this rule with regard to this thread. From this post onward, the rule will be enforced as needed. I have updated the OP to clarify this as well; anyone who posts about ban/unban topics after this post will be moderated accordingly. All other forum, subforum, and thread rules also apply.
Carry on with the AKH discussion!
Gideon of the Trials is a very, very good sideboard card against non-interactive combo. The problem is how tight sideboards are right now. He's also weak against any sort of hybrid combo deck, like current Valakut decks or Melira Company, or decks that can divide damage, like Storm or Grishoalbrand. If we see a significant uptick in decks like Ad Nauseam or Laboratory Maniac decks, he'll make it into sideboards.
As Foretold is a difficult card to evaluate. Objectively, it breaks the rules of "fair" magic by cheating mana costs, which historically has led to some real balance problems. It's an enabler card, so you need to have other cards to make it powerful, but it's probably the strongest we've seen printed in the last couple years. You need to resolve this as early as possible to really benefit from it, but the upsides are really high. Yes, it dies to removal and Abrupt Decay is a card. The main knock against this card is that the meta is decidedly hostile to the sort of deck that can abuse this sort of effect. It's a very strong card without an obvious home.
Rhonas, the Indomitable is a very solid beatstick in Goyf or Tasigur midrange decks. I expect this to see some play. Always beating other creatures in combat is a very big upside, but lack of trample means that tokens can stall it a bit. Still, being able to give Goyfs trample is good.
Censor isn't good enough for Modern. Neat card, almost there in terms of power level, but not enough. If it had been: "UU Instant: Counter target spell unless its controller pays 3. Cycling U" I could think of a few decks that might be able to use it.
Censor: Maindeck censor proved difficult for players to play around, and when they did leave 1 open the cycling cost of censor is the same, so playing around censor being the same tempo cost as cycling the card made it quite valuable. In the Post-board games, especially on the draw, depending on the matchup some number of censor came out and opponents still tried to play around it. Censor gained a bunch of free value - although decks featuring tons of hand disruption were much better at playing around it game 1 than other decks (although again at tempo parity, so it didn't have a cost). This card pairs well with Logic Knot since the same mana represents either card, and logic knot is much closer to a hard counter than mana leak. Late game, when you won't really be getting the random 1 mana tempo value, it's not a huge cost to just cycle it away. Solid card, not great.
As Foretold: Incredible with Jace, Telepath Unbound, Restore Balance/Ancestral Vision. I'm not sure how else the card can be used though, considering you have to sorcery speed 3 mana into absolutely nothing for a turn at least (without the ancestral/balance), and even then it's just two mana max the first turn. I think this is a good addition/ replacement for Cascade mechanics in decks featuring this cycle of cards.
Gideon of the Trials: Just as good a control card as it sounds. Makes it impossible to avoid playing into sweepers. At 3 mana you can afford to play it early since it addresses the board. Great card, will see play. The fact that Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is also a great card makes the emblem a very nice asset.
I mean, the deck might just be jank, but these cards have not felt wanting.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I've seen reports from a couple people who have, and they had positive experiences with it.
This argument reminds me of the time Izzet went hellbent on me that Eidolon of the Great Revel would NEVER ever be played in modern. Lol.
Angel of Sanctions, and Dusk both seem to have some interesting applications. Def gonna do a lil testing with those guys
Thoughts on Shadow of the Grave as some type of storm/combo enabler?