Lol banning Urza's Tower would nuke 3+ entire decks, two of which have been around for years (there including the several flavors of Tron that runs Karn).
This thought process is dangerous. It's the thought most of us had about Twin too. With that ban, they have proven nothing is "safe".
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How I like to win games:
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Burn
Titanshift
Copycat (Given up currently, not entirely sure what it needs)
Ancient Stirrings is the best cantrip in Modern period. The only thing that keeps it alive is the fact that it makes you build your deck in a certain way. I think it is at the same level of Ponder, but the latter remains banned as it doesn't constrict you deckbulding, it just adds consistency to whatever you please to do.
Preordain+Serum Visions doesn't seem like a huge deal in terms of power level. I don't think WOTC will unban Preordain as it goes against a stated goal of the format. High consistency is something they avoid in Modern. For that reason, i can say that they may be closer to banning Stirrings than unbanning Preordain. They are just saving it for a future shake up of the format. Also, banning Stirrings goes well with nerfing(or destroying) Death's Shadow archetypes, as it hits the 'best deck' and the next best thing after it. There are no indications that they will go with the path of raising Modern's power level as they have never taken that path before.
Lastly, Stoneforge Mystic is shaping to be a more plausible unban IF they take the path of nuking the remaining powerful strategies(as stated above).
banning Stirrings goes well with nerfing(or destroying) Death's Shadow archetypes, as it hits the 'best deck' and the next best thing after it.
I cant understand what you are saying here. Could you elaborate please?
What i mean by this is: Everyone's worry(including Wizards i suppose) is that a potential banning of the best deck(Death's Shadow, with the reason being:Archetype variety or Power level) will leave behind certain decks that will see an increase in power(Stirrings decks:Lantern,Tron,Eldrazi,KCI) and could see them as potentially probematic. You see Stirrings already causing problems in Ironworks combo and Lantern as those decks are NOT fun to play against by most metrics and popular belief. You can also remember that Mox Opal was once saw as the culprit of artifact decks being so good, but Affinity has no reason to be banned so Mox Opal doesn't seem as a realistic banning option. Stirrings could be seen as the real culprit as it empowers in consistency certain decks that are miserable for a large part of the community and are VERY strong decks in general.
Eldrazi has Temple, KCI has Opal and KCI, Lantern has Bridge and Opal. All these strategies that the Modern community including Pro´s, consider to be very good and hard to beat, while being a miserable experience from the gameplay perspective. Instead of banning every engine, the can take away the consistency tool that have in common.
In conclusion, my point is: IF Death's Shadow is seen as material of unhealthiness, it is perfectly reasonable to say that the next one on the chopping block is Ancient Stirrings. It empowers decks that are unfun, it attempts against stated goals of the format, and it gets better every set that comes out. Even if Shadow remains legal, KCI could make it go for speed or logistical reasons.
PS:Not advocating for any ban. My stance was always the same, Ban if it is imperative to act(Eldrazi Winter), Unban if it is super safe.
When you really think about it, Stirrings is most comparable to Dig Through Time. One is an ideally 2 mana instant but requires some setup, look at 7 take 2, the other is a 1 mana sorcery, no setup required, look at 5 take 1. Plus, multiple Digs can conflict with each other if you can't stock the graveyard, while there's no drawback to multiple Stirrings. Not saying they're exactly equal, but these two cards feel pretty close to me.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
When you really think about it, Stirrings is most comparable to Dig Through Time. One is an ideally 2 mana instant but requires some setup, look at 7 take 2, the other is a 1 mana sorcery, no setup required, look at 5 take 1. Plus, multiple Digs can conflict with each other if you can't stock the graveyard, while there's no drawback to multiple Stirrings. Not saying they're exactly equal, but these two cards feel pretty close to me.
Dig nets you any 2 cards every time and 7 down at instant speed. In legacy it was known as double demonic tutor. It requires "setup" in that you need to play a little magic first. Ancient stirrings at most get you 1 card at sorcery speed for 1. If stirrings was so powerful it would be played in vintage or legacy. Personally I would like to see a lot more consistency not less. I find consistency leads to an overall better game. It looks like people are forced to use ancient stirrings because there aren't very many alternatives.
In conclusion, give us Prordain plz! Or at least Fact or Fiction.
I have a question. Not long ago I said stirrings is the only ban i wanted to see. Now i dont think SSG is a card that does any good to Modern, but I still believe the only card that should go is Ancient Stirrings. The first response I got was from Sheridan telling me "Why dont we unban Preordain instead so that we bring back the balance between the green and the blue cantrips?". Well, he is right but I am convinced that this is not happening, because UW control and Grixis DS do see play and storm still exists.
So, if you agree with me and you do think Preordain is not getting unbanned, whats up with this imbalance between the two cantrips? Shall it stay like it is?
PS: I do know that Stirrings has a building restriction, but colourless decks in Modern is more than a real thing.
PS2: I do like Modern atm. Its super diverse, its interactive, and finally we blue mages have a deck that can win a GP and its power level is up there in Grixis DS. All in all, no changes is what should be done in the next two or three B&R Updates and its what I would do if I was in charge.
I am strictly in the boat that more bans at this time will only do bad for the format for several reasons. The biggest thing is the rampant ban mania within the format. Every time a deck does well on camera, the discussion isn't "wow that deck is cool" or "i wonder if card x would be good in that deck" it's straight to "what should get banned from that deck" wotc has gotten looser and looser with what they consider bannable, only worsening this. This creates a very Doom and gloom feeling about the format, which leads to players leaving the format, new players being skeptical about joining the format, and makes current players not want to buy into the decks they want to play.
In addition, each ban lowers the overall power level of the format. This could be a positive thing if the format was at too high of a power level, but when the format is at a good level this just makes the format more prone to being broken by random new cards. Eldrazi destroyed the post twin format, but probably would have just been a good deck at pro tour Philadelphia. This isn't me saying we should go back to that version of modern, just illustrating my point.
Finally talking about ancient Stirrings specifically, banning a card just because it is a Good card or because "blue can't have it" are terrible reasons to ban cards. Cards should be banned for enabling too many t3 wins, being so omnipresent in the format that decklists practically start at 56 cards, or they are a part of a meta share violator that is taking up far too many top 8/16 slots over a reasonable period of time. Cards are only as good as the format around them, while we can theorize for weeks about how "broken" ancient Stirrings is, if Stirrings decks are not taking up 20%+ of top 8 slots then the card quite clearly is not actually broken, you just do not like it. If your justification is something as terrible as "buy i dont get to cast Preordain so ban Stirrings damnit!" well clearly the solution to that problem is unban Preordain, and if tomorrow they say "we will never unban Preordain no matter what" the solution continues to not be ban stirrings.
The solution is UNBANS and NEW PRINTS. Yes, wotc has been very slow and failed to deliver on both of these fronts continuously, but they cannot ignore their playerbase forever. The community likes to bash wotc a lot, but they ARE indeed a business. If their customers continue to ask and prod at them, criticize them for bad bans and lack of unbans, while giving them praise for good bans and unbans, they will get off their asses and fix things. Yes, it may take some time, but modern is not in a "we need to fix this *****hole right now" situation, the format is very diverse both in individual decks and playstyles. Yes, blue control and white in general are weak, but both of those things have tier 2 decks that you can play and be reasonably successful with in the meantime. If you only have fun when you are winning, why are you not just playing the best decks? If you are expecting exactly your favorite strategy to always be the best, you have unreasonable expectations for literally every format. That is like me going to the legacy forums and whining about how weak aggro is there, it just isnt top tier in that format. If i want to play aggro and play legacy specifically, i am not going to expect to have a 75% wr top tier deck, but i would expect to play a deck i like in a format i enjoy. If i want to play legacy and win a bunch, i would just play miracles and get over it
Well stirrings sounds like a good ban too instead of the tower. As long as it neuters big dudes a bit so that control doesn't have a 0% win chance against 10% of the field.
You must be playing a weird control deck.
Stirrings and traverse are the best 2 bans probably.
Traverse is a 1 mana tutor that wasn't designed to be so efficient in the early game, but since modern has cards like bauble, it's too good of a tutor.
I have a question. Not long ago I said stirrings is the only ban i wanted to see. Now i dont think SSG is a card that does any good to Modern, but I still believe the only card that should go is Ancient Stirrings. The first response I got was from Sheridan telling me "Why dont we unban Preordain instead so that we bring back the balance between the green and the blue cantrips?". Well, he is right but I am convinced that this is not happening, because UW control and Grixis DS do see play and storm still exists.
So, if you agree with me and you do think Preordain is not getting unbanned, whats up with this imbalance between the two cantrips? Shall it stay like it is?
PS: I do know that Stirrings has a building restriction, but colourless decks in Modern is more than a real thing.
PS2: I do like Modern atm. Its super diverse, its interactive, and finally we blue mages have a deck that can win a GP and its power level is up there in Grixis DS. All in all, no changes is what should be done in the next two or three B&R Updates and its what I would do if I was in charge.
I am strictly in the boat that more bans at this time will only do bad for the format for several reasons. The biggest thing is the rampant ban mania within the format. Every time a deck does well on camera, the discussion isn't "wow that deck is cool" or "i wonder if card x would be good in that deck" it's straight to "what should get banned from that deck" wotc has gotten looser and looser with what they consider bannable, only worsening this. This creates a very Doom and gloom feeling about the format, which leads to players leaving the format, new players being skeptical about joining the format, and makes current players not want to buy into the decks they want to play.
In addition, each ban lowers the overall power level of the format. This could be a positive thing if the format was at too high of a power level, but when the format is at a good level this just makes the format more prone to being broken by random new cards. Eldrazi destroyed the post twin format, but probably would have just been a good deck at pro tour Philadelphia. This isn't me saying we should go back to that version of modern, just illustrating my point.
Finally talking about ancient Stirrings specifically, banning a card just because it is a Good card or because "blue can't have it" are terrible reasons to ban cards. Cards should be banned for enabling too many t3 wins, being so omnipresent in the format that decklists practically start at 56 cards, or they are a part of a meta share violator that is taking up far too many top 8/16 slots over a reasonable period of time. Cards are only as good as the format around them, while we can theorize for weeks about how "broken" ancient Stirrings is, if Stirrings decks are not taking up 20%+ of top 8 slots then the card quite clearly is not actually broken, you just do not like it. If your justification is something as terrible as "buy i dont get to cast Preordain so ban Stirrings damnit!" well clearly the solution to that problem is unban Preordain, and if tomorrow they say "we will never unban Preordain no matter what" the solution continues to not be ban stirrings.
The solution is UNBANS and NEW PRINTS. Yes, wotc has been very slow and failed to deliver on both of these fronts continuously, but they cannot ignore their playerbase forever. The community likes to bash wotc a lot, but they ARE indeed a business. If their customers continue to ask and prod at them, criticize them for bad bans and lack of unbans, while giving them praise for good bans and unbans, they will get off their asses and fix things. Yes, it may take some time, but modern is not in a "we need to fix this *****hole right now" situation, the format is very diverse both in individual decks and playstyles. Yes, blue control and white in general are weak, but both of those things have tier 2 decks that you can play and be reasonably successful with in the meantime. If you only have fun when you are winning, why are you not just playing the best decks? If you are expecting exactly your favorite strategy to always be the best, you have unreasonable expectations for literally every format. That is like me going to the legacy forums and whining about how weak aggro is there, it just isnt top tier in that format. If i want to play aggro and play legacy specifically, i am not going to expect to have a 75% wr top tier deck, but i would expect to play a deck i like in a format i enjoy. If i want to play legacy and win a bunch, i would just play miracles and get over it
It's so refreshing seeing a player that clearly enjoys playing blue, not spewing hatred to anything that is remotely similar to a blue effect on another color in spite of the state of blue on modern.
This thread all of a sudden became "how to destroy the thing standing out" instead of a discussion of what actually would make the format healthy.
Playing Control, my win rate versus Tron is honestly higher than my win rate versus stuff like Burn.
Big mana isn't specifically a problem for control, the lack of good answers (specifically on the stack) is.
You hit a sore spot for me since my 2 losses tonight were to Eldrazi Tron and Burn.
I think in the past, Control has done poorly vs. Tron decks and big mana strategies, but the newer versions of UW Control with 4 Spreading Seas and between 5-6 Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge, the matchup should be shored up. That's not even to mention Ceremonious Rejection, which could also be played, but usually isn't, outside of niche metagames.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
There is no problem for Control against Tron, if you can maindeck land hate or land destruction.
I just built a Grixis combo based control (madcap moon) two days ago. The match up against Tron, or Eldrazi is amazing.
Control needs, as people have already mentioned several times, a good reason to play control (a good game finisher).
I am strictly in the boat that more bans at this time will only do bad for the format for several reasons. The biggest thing is the rampant ban mania within the format. Every time a deck does well on camera, the discussion isn't "wow that deck is cool" or "i wonder if card x would be good in that deck" it's straight to "what should get banned from that deck" wotc has gotten looser and looser with what they consider bannable, only worsening this. This creates a very Doom and gloom feeling about the format, which leads to players leaving the format, new players being skeptical about joining the format, and makes current players not want to buy into the decks they want to play.
In addition, each ban lowers the overall power level of the format. This could be a positive thing if the format was at too high of a power level, but when the format is at a good level this just makes the format more prone to being broken by random new cards. Eldrazi destroyed the post twin format, but probably would have just been a good deck at pro tour Philadelphia. This isn't me saying we should go back to that version of modern, just illustrating my point.
Finally talking about ancient Stirrings specifically, banning a card just because it is a Good card or because "blue can't have it" are terrible reasons to ban cards. Cards should be banned for enabling too many t3 wins, being so omnipresent in the format that decklists practically start at 56 cards, or they are a part of a meta share violator that is taking up far too many top 8/16 slots over a reasonable period of time. Cards are only as good as the format around them, while we can theorize for weeks about how "broken" ancient Stirrings is, if Stirrings decks are not taking up 20%+ of top 8 slots then the card quite clearly is not actually broken, you just do not like it. If your justification is something as terrible as "buy i dont get to cast Preordain so ban Stirrings damnit!" well clearly the solution to that problem is unban Preordain, and if tomorrow they say "we will never unban Preordain no matter what" the solution continues to not be ban stirrings.
The solution is UNBANS and NEW PRINTS. Yes, wotc has been very slow and failed to deliver on both of these fronts continuously, but they cannot ignore their playerbase forever. The community likes to bash wotc a lot, but they ARE indeed a business. If their customers continue to ask and prod at them, criticize them for bad bans and lack of unbans, while giving them praise for good bans and unbans, they will get off their asses and fix things. Yes, it may take some time, but modern is not in a "we need to fix this *****hole right now" situation, the format is very diverse both in individual decks and playstyles. Yes, blue control and white in general are weak, but both of those things have tier 2 decks that you can play and be reasonably successful with in the meantime. If you only have fun when you are winning, why are you not just playing the best decks? If you are expecting exactly your favorite strategy to always be the best, you have unreasonable expectations for literally every format. That is like me going to the legacy forums and whining about how weak aggro is there, it just isnt top tier in that format. If i want to play aggro and play legacy specifically, i am not going to expect to have a 75% wr top tier deck, but i would expect to play a deck i like in a format i enjoy. If i want to play legacy and win a bunch, i would just play miracles and get over it
More people need to have attitudes like this on this forum. The ban mania that has taken over is too much, and I feel, very counterproductive. It promotes an unhealthy discussion on the problems and solutions modern needs, as well as fosters negative attitudes toward the format.
Curious to your thoughts on Cryptic Serpent. It can often be cast for UU, has a beefy body and dodges a lot of relevant removal(AD, FP, and bolt). He does lack relevant evasion so that's a minus. IDK. Seems like it could close out games quite quickly though, given a path or evasion...
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Curious to your thoughts on Cryptic Serpent. It can often be cast for UU, has a beefy body and dodges a lot of relevant removal(AD, FP, and bolt). He does lack relevant evasion so that's a minus. IDK. Seems like it could close out games quite quickly though, given a path or evasion...
UU to get 6/5 is not bad. The thing is if you can access to the black mana, Tasigur is usually a better candidate because it provides more card advantage.
Curious to your thoughts on Cryptic Serpent. It can often be cast for UU, has a beefy body and dodges a lot of relevant removal(AD, FP, and bolt). He does lack relevant evasion so that's a minus. IDK. Seems like it could close out games quite quickly though, given a path or evasion...
UU to get 6/5 is not bad. The thing is if you can access to the black mana, Tasigur is usually a better candidate because it provides more card advantage.
I don't think the Tasigur vs. Serpent issue has anything to do with card advantage. The issue is that Serpent is really expensive. I suspect Serpent's average cost on T2 is always about 3UU, with an average cost of 2UU or 1UU on T3 (the latter only if you play a card that turn). This means you can't cast Serpent at all until T4 and THAT is the card's big problem. Tasigur and Goyf land on T2 if you want and will almost always land on T3 with disruption backup. Serpent is a turn too slow.
But Tasigur is gonna eat a lot of your gy resources for a late(r) game SCM. CS leaves your cards in the yard. I'm not sure that offsets Tas's card advantage but it is something to consider.
Thanks for the response btw.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
But we're talking control here, more or less. I'm not talking about dropping it T3 or 4 I'm talking turn 6 and having mana backup to support the play. If control is looking to play finishers on pace with decks like DSJ or tron, that cheat in monsters, it's never gonna happen, or if it does it's gonna look a lot like Thing in the Ice. Control shouldn't be looking to race. Every time it does it will fail. Control needs to manipulate the board state into an advantageous position and then have the gas to end the game. I'm not saying Serpent is it, rather Tas eats up your yard for a vanilla beater and I'm not certain those resources aren't better spent on gas for SCM. To me, it almost seems like Tas is often played too soon to create an early threat when control has always been about the long game.
Thanks for your thoughts Kenshin. They're always appreciated.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
What do people expect to get banned in the next banlist announcement?
Nothing.
I do want an unban of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Preordain, but the closer it gets to the ban announcement, the more I honestly think it's going to be "no changes." I am one of those players, like some others in here, that feel that not unbanning certain cards is kind of a slap in the face - akin to how cards like Sword of the Meek were not unbanned since 2012, but eventually was. Obviously, it's better late than never, but as a company, you lose customers that way. Not sure if the new marketers care though...
*Also, I'm going to say this at the end of a lot of my posts - Preordain is not the mythological monster that destroys formats that many (or it feels like most at times) believe that it is. Even Ponder, infinitely better, is probably nearly acceptable at this time.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I'm tempted to buy a Jace in case he gets unbanned and the price goes back to absurd levels.
But I think it would probably blow up in my face
You wouldn't regret it. Even if it was not unbanned at this announcement, it certainly will be at a future time. It only blows up in the face of players who see it not unbanned and sell immediately. Imagine how often that happened with cards like Bitterblossom, Sword of the Meek, and Ancestral Vision - "Oh damn, Wizards is not unbanning this safe card. I gotta sell it now to get what I can. Three months later... Oh snap, they did unban it. Those bastards!"
@wpgstevo - I like your lists a lot. The only thing I am not in favor of is a Splinter Twin unban, but mostly only because I feel it could cause the others to stay banned or not be unbanned. I'll definitely take 3-4 cards instead of 1.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
This thought process is dangerous. It's the thought most of us had about Twin too. With that ban, they have proven nothing is "safe".
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Burn
Titanshift
Copycat (Given up currently, not entirely sure what it needs)
Legacy:
Burn
B/R Reanimator (slowly building
EDH:
Sedris Control/Reanimation
Preordain+Serum Visions doesn't seem like a huge deal in terms of power level. I don't think WOTC will unban Preordain as it goes against a stated goal of the format. High consistency is something they avoid in Modern. For that reason, i can say that they may be closer to banning Stirrings than unbanning Preordain. They are just saving it for a future shake up of the format. Also, banning Stirrings goes well with nerfing(or destroying) Death's Shadow archetypes, as it hits the 'best deck' and the next best thing after it. There are no indications that they will go with the path of raising Modern's power level as they have never taken that path before.
Lastly, Stoneforge Mystic is shaping to be a more plausible unban IF they take the path of nuking the remaining powerful strategies(as stated above).
What i mean by this is: Everyone's worry(including Wizards i suppose) is that a potential banning of the best deck(Death's Shadow, with the reason being:Archetype variety or Power level) will leave behind certain decks that will see an increase in power(Stirrings decks:Lantern,Tron,Eldrazi,KCI) and could see them as potentially probematic. You see Stirrings already causing problems in Ironworks combo and Lantern as those decks are NOT fun to play against by most metrics and popular belief. You can also remember that Mox Opal was once saw as the culprit of artifact decks being so good, but Affinity has no reason to be banned so Mox Opal doesn't seem as a realistic banning option. Stirrings could be seen as the real culprit as it empowers in consistency certain decks that are miserable for a large part of the community and are VERY strong decks in general.
Eldrazi has Temple, KCI has Opal and KCI, Lantern has Bridge and Opal. All these strategies that the Modern community including Pro´s, consider to be very good and hard to beat, while being a miserable experience from the gameplay perspective. Instead of banning every engine, the can take away the consistency tool that have in common.
In conclusion, my point is: IF Death's Shadow is seen as material of unhealthiness, it is perfectly reasonable to say that the next one on the chopping block is Ancient Stirrings. It empowers decks that are unfun, it attempts against stated goals of the format, and it gets better every set that comes out. Even if Shadow remains legal, KCI could make it go for speed or logistical reasons.
PS:Not advocating for any ban. My stance was always the same, Ban if it is imperative to act(Eldrazi Winter), Unban if it is super safe.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Dig nets you any 2 cards every time and 7 down at instant speed. In legacy it was known as double demonic tutor. It requires "setup" in that you need to play a little magic first. Ancient stirrings at most get you 1 card at sorcery speed for 1. If stirrings was so powerful it would be played in vintage or legacy. Personally I would like to see a lot more consistency not less. I find consistency leads to an overall better game. It looks like people are forced to use ancient stirrings because there aren't very many alternatives.
In conclusion, give us Prordain plz! Or at least Fact or Fiction.
I am strictly in the boat that more bans at this time will only do bad for the format for several reasons. The biggest thing is the rampant ban mania within the format. Every time a deck does well on camera, the discussion isn't "wow that deck is cool" or "i wonder if card x would be good in that deck" it's straight to "what should get banned from that deck" wotc has gotten looser and looser with what they consider bannable, only worsening this. This creates a very Doom and gloom feeling about the format, which leads to players leaving the format, new players being skeptical about joining the format, and makes current players not want to buy into the decks they want to play.
In addition, each ban lowers the overall power level of the format. This could be a positive thing if the format was at too high of a power level, but when the format is at a good level this just makes the format more prone to being broken by random new cards. Eldrazi destroyed the post twin format, but probably would have just been a good deck at pro tour Philadelphia. This isn't me saying we should go back to that version of modern, just illustrating my point.
Finally talking about ancient Stirrings specifically, banning a card just because it is a Good card or because "blue can't have it" are terrible reasons to ban cards. Cards should be banned for enabling too many t3 wins, being so omnipresent in the format that decklists practically start at 56 cards, or they are a part of a meta share violator that is taking up far too many top 8/16 slots over a reasonable period of time. Cards are only as good as the format around them, while we can theorize for weeks about how "broken" ancient Stirrings is, if Stirrings decks are not taking up 20%+ of top 8 slots then the card quite clearly is not actually broken, you just do not like it. If your justification is something as terrible as "buy i dont get to cast Preordain so ban Stirrings damnit!" well clearly the solution to that problem is unban Preordain, and if tomorrow they say "we will never unban Preordain no matter what" the solution continues to not be ban stirrings.
The solution is UNBANS and NEW PRINTS. Yes, wotc has been very slow and failed to deliver on both of these fronts continuously, but they cannot ignore their playerbase forever. The community likes to bash wotc a lot, but they ARE indeed a business. If their customers continue to ask and prod at them, criticize them for bad bans and lack of unbans, while giving them praise for good bans and unbans, they will get off their asses and fix things. Yes, it may take some time, but modern is not in a "we need to fix this *****hole right now" situation, the format is very diverse both in individual decks and playstyles. Yes, blue control and white in general are weak, but both of those things have tier 2 decks that you can play and be reasonably successful with in the meantime. If you only have fun when you are winning, why are you not just playing the best decks? If you are expecting exactly your favorite strategy to always be the best, you have unreasonable expectations for literally every format. That is like me going to the legacy forums and whining about how weak aggro is there, it just isnt top tier in that format. If i want to play aggro and play legacy specifically, i am not going to expect to have a 75% wr top tier deck, but i would expect to play a deck i like in a format i enjoy. If i want to play legacy and win a bunch, i would just play miracles and get over it
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Big mana isn't specifically a problem for control, the lack of good answers (specifically on the stack) is.
Stirrings and traverse are the best 2 bans probably.
Traverse is a 1 mana tutor that wasn't designed to be so efficient in the early game, but since modern has cards like bauble, it's too good of a tutor.
It's so refreshing seeing a player that clearly enjoys playing blue, not spewing hatred to anything that is remotely similar to a blue effect on another color in spite of the state of blue on modern.
This thread all of a sudden became "how to destroy the thing standing out" instead of a discussion of what actually would make the format healthy.
You hit a sore spot for me since my 2 losses tonight were to Eldrazi Tron and Burn.
I think in the past, Control has done poorly vs. Tron decks and big mana strategies, but the newer versions of UW Control with 4 Spreading Seas and between 5-6 Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge, the matchup should be shored up. That's not even to mention Ceremonious Rejection, which could also be played, but usually isn't, outside of niche metagames.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I just built a Grixis combo based control (madcap moon) two days ago. The match up against Tron, or Eldrazi is amazing.
Control needs, as people have already mentioned several times, a good reason to play control (a good game finisher).
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
More people need to have attitudes like this on this forum. The ban mania that has taken over is too much, and I feel, very counterproductive. It promotes an unhealthy discussion on the problems and solutions modern needs, as well as fosters negative attitudes toward the format.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
UU to get 6/5 is not bad. The thing is if you can access to the black mana, Tasigur is usually a better candidate because it provides more card advantage.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
I don't think the Tasigur vs. Serpent issue has anything to do with card advantage. The issue is that Serpent is really expensive. I suspect Serpent's average cost on T2 is always about 3UU, with an average cost of 2UU or 1UU on T3 (the latter only if you play a card that turn). This means you can't cast Serpent at all until T4 and THAT is the card's big problem. Tasigur and Goyf land on T2 if you want and will almost always land on T3 with disruption backup. Serpent is a turn too slow.
Thanks for the response btw.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Thanks for your thoughts Kenshin. They're always appreciated.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Nothing.
I do want an unban of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Preordain, but the closer it gets to the ban announcement, the more I honestly think it's going to be "no changes." I am one of those players, like some others in here, that feel that not unbanning certain cards is kind of a slap in the face - akin to how cards like Sword of the Meek were not unbanned since 2012, but eventually was. Obviously, it's better late than never, but as a company, you lose customers that way. Not sure if the new marketers care though...
*Also, I'm going to say this at the end of a lot of my posts - Preordain is not the mythological monster that destroys formats that many (or it feels like most at times) believe that it is. Even Ponder, infinitely better, is probably nearly acceptable at this time.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Optimistic:
Bans: None
Unbans:
- Preordain
- Stoneforge Mystic
- BloodBraid Elf
- Jace, the Mind Sculptor
- Splinter Twin
Realistic:Bans: None
Unbans: Stoneforge Mystic
Pessimistic
Bans: Death's Shadow
Unban: None
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
You wouldn't regret it. Even if it was not unbanned at this announcement, it certainly will be at a future time. It only blows up in the face of players who see it not unbanned and sell immediately. Imagine how often that happened with cards like Bitterblossom, Sword of the Meek, and Ancestral Vision - "Oh damn, Wizards is not unbanning this safe card. I gotta sell it now to get what I can. Three months later... Oh snap, they did unban it. Those bastards!"
@wpgstevo - I like your lists a lot. The only thing I am not in favor of is a Splinter Twin unban, but mostly only because I feel it could cause the others to stay banned or not be unbanned. I'll definitely take 3-4 cards instead of 1.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)No change.
I am always excited if WOTC says I am wrong. Unfortunately, he told me I am right from time to time.
When can I play my Jace or STM in Modern? Let's see
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron