Jace is the only good blue unban, but I am in agreement with PVDDR that it would not be good for modern in the way we hope. It is an oppressive card and the format will warp around it. It would be fine (kill before turn 4, dies to bolt)and not fine (overwhelming card advantage, repeatable, fateseal or bounce you out of the game) at the same time.
Splinter twin is probably a better "blue" unban if anything and it kind of has the same problem. Fine (you can deal with it) and not Fine (no-one plays 4 drops) at the same time.
Again I am in agreement with PVDDR in that Fact or Fiction reprint is what is needed to boost blue control the card draw/filter options just aren't strong enough. At 4 mana makes it more attractive for control rather than combo, although some kind of reanimator or solar flare deck would probably exist. WotC clearly likes the card fact or fiction, they keep reprinting it in non modern legal sets and keep trying to make alternate versions for standard that are never good enough. I am not sure if it is a the "feel bad" feeling of making the wrong piles (particularly for new players) that keeps it out of standard or not, they had no problem printing dig through time so power draw/filtering is fine for standard.
I do not have too much experience with modern magic, but a couple months ago I've sleeved up decks and began to play (switching from standard to modern). I noticed that blue as a color seems much weaker than it did before and is usually only splashed for card draw. After realizing that serum visions was the only decent modern cantrip I started wondering what the format would look like with ponder, preordain, and or brainstorm? Which decks would they help the most, would they improve blue as a color or would it hurt blue combo/control oriented decks by helping decks splashing blue like BGx? As let me know, do you think they would improve the format or hurt it?
In addition do you think that if WOTC unbans the blue cantrips should they ban or unban another card to help balance. I personally think bloodbraid elf seems like a good compromise.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UUUUU
Modern Decks: URGifts StormRU UBRGrixis ShadowRBU
I do not have too much experience with modern magic, but a couple months ago I've sleeved up decks and began to play (switching from standard to modern). I noticed that blue as a color seems much weaker than it did before and is usually only splashed for card draw. After realizing that serum visions was the only decent modern cantrip I started wondering what the format would look like with ponder, preordain, and or brainstorm? Which decks would they help the most, would they improve blue as a color or would it hurt blue combo/control oriented decks by helping decks splashing blue like BGx? As let me know, do you think they would improve the format or hurt it?
In addition do you think that if WOTC unbans the blue cantrips should they ban or unban another card to help balance. I personally think bloodbraid elf seems like a good compromise.
Brainstorm has never been printed in a Modern legal set and is far above the power level of Modern, so it's never making its way into Modern.
Ponder and Preordain were banned due to adding too much consistency to combo decks. They left Serum Visions because, well, it's the fairest version of a top deck filter/cantrip. Ponder is almost on par with Brainstorm in terms of power level, so it's probably never coming off the banlist. Preordain has been widely discussed and debated on the forums. Most agree that it would help reactive blue strategies somewhat, however some argue that it would help combo too much, turning them into a boogeyman again. A few others argue that Preordain wouldn't even address blue's primary problem in Modern.
With the recent uptick in eggs against I'm thinking we will see a KCI ban in the near future. The deck isn't unfair and is very vulnerable to hate, but it is painful to watch. The number of people timing out or going to a 20 minute turn after going to turns is high. If the deck doesn't die off soon on its own wizards will ban something (probably KCI) just for logistics.
With the recent uptick in eggs against I'm thinking we will see a KCI ban in the near future. The deck isn't unfair and is very vulnerable to hate, but it is painful to watch. The number of people timing out or going to a 20 minute turn after going to turns is high. If the deck doesn't die off soon on its own wizards will ban something (probably KCI) just for logistics.
I also think Eggs is a banning possibility, but I don't share your certainty about the current evidence. Do you have any source for "people...going to a 20 minute turn after going to turns" being a common occurrence? I know we can talk about it abstractly, but I'm wondering if you have any actual source here. For instance, when Sunrise got banned in 2013, I remember watching the GP at the time and a number of its rounds went super long. Interestingly, these weren't rounds in the T8. Most people just conceded to Holiday when Eggs got going. But earlier, people weren't conceding and at least two of the rounds went for 10+ minutes past extra turns.
With the recent uptick in eggs against I'm thinking we will see a KCI ban in the near future. The deck isn't unfair and is very vulnerable to hate, but it is painful to watch. The number of people timing out or going to a 20 minute turn after going to turns is high. If the deck doesn't die off soon on its own wizards will ban something (probably KCI) just for logistics.
I also think Eggs is a banning possibility, but I don't share your certainty about the current evidence. Do you have any source for "people...going to a 20 minute turn after going to turns" being a common occurrence? I know we can talk about it abstractly, but I'm wondering if you have any actual source here. For instance, when Sunrise got banned in 2013, I remember watching the GP at the time and a number of its rounds went super long. Interestingly, these weren't rounds in the T8. Most people just conceded to Holiday when Eggs got going. But earlier, people weren't conceding and at least two of the rounds went for 10+ minutes past extra turns.
Most of my evidence is anecdotal from fnms (where I also played eggs a few times) there's also been a few streamers showing the deck recently who have shown really long combo turns. Paul cheon and saffron olive I know have videos timing out on modo and the deck takes longer irl keeping track of all the mana and triggers. It's nit a huge deal for experienced players, but a lot of new to the deck people make rounds bad.
With the recent uptick in eggs against I'm thinking we will see a KCI ban in the near future. The deck isn't unfair and is very vulnerable to hate, but it is painful to watch. The number of people timing out or going to a 20 minute turn after going to turns is high. If the deck doesn't die off soon on its own wizards will ban something (probably KCI) just for logistics.
What is KCI?
I have never heard this terminology before.
With the recent uptick in eggs against I'm thinking we will see a KCI ban in the near future. The deck isn't unfair and is very vulnerable to hate, but it is painful to watch. The number of people timing out or going to a 20 minute turn after going to turns is high. If the deck doesn't die off soon on its own wizards will ban something (probably KCI) just for logistics.
What is KCI?
I have never heard this terminology before.
With the recent uptick in eggs against I'm thinking we will see a KCI ban in the near future. The deck isn't unfair and is very vulnerable to hate, but it is painful to watch. The number of people timing out or going to a 20 minute turn after going to turns is high. If the deck doesn't die off soon on its own wizards will ban something (probably KCI) just for logistics.
What is KCI?
I have never heard this terminology before.
Krark-Clan Ironworks
It's pretty much the engine that makes the deck work. The goal is to sac enough artifacts to make mana for Emrakul or a banefire or infinite spellbombs.
With the recent uptick in eggs against I'm thinking we will see a KCI ban in the near future. The deck isn't unfair and is very vulnerable to hate, but it is painful to watch. The number of people timing out or going to a 20 minute turn after going to turns is high. If the deck doesn't die off soon on its own wizards will ban something (probably KCI) just for logistics.
I also think Eggs is a banning possibility, but I don't share your certainty about the current evidence. Do you have any source for "people...going to a 20 minute turn after going to turns" being a common occurrence? I know we can talk about it abstractly, but I'm wondering if you have any actual source here. For instance, when Sunrise got banned in 2013, I remember watching the GP at the time and a number of its rounds went super long. Interestingly, these weren't rounds in the T8. Most people just conceded to Holiday when Eggs got going. But earlier, people weren't conceding and at least two of the rounds went for 10+ minutes past extra turns.
Most of my evidence is anecdotal from fnms (where I also played eggs a few times) there's also been a few streamers showing the deck recently who have shown really long combo turns. Paul cheon and saffron olive I know have videos timing out on modo and the deck takes longer irl keeping track of all the mana and triggers. It's nit a huge deal for experienced players, but a lot of new to the deck people make rounds bad.
There's no indication that MTGO time factors into logistical bans. If anything, the MTGO time loss is a disadvantage for the Eggs pilot, not the opponent. This is different than in paper, where untimed "going to time" rounds benefit the Eggs pilots themselves. But consistent paper logistical issues would be a problem.
With the recent uptick in eggs against I'm thinking we will see a KCI ban in the near future. The deck isn't unfair and is very vulnerable to hate, but it is painful to watch. The number of people timing out or going to a 20 minute turn after going to turns is high. If the deck doesn't die off soon on its own wizards will ban something (probably KCI) just for logistics.
What is KCI?
I have never heard this terminology before.
The new spoilee card Glorious end seems like the print we dont want to be messing around with in Modern. Even if it wont turn up good and show itself up only in junky UR HMind decks, i would want Wizards to be more careful.
Do you Ad nauseam players think Ad Nauseam would take this?
Well I don't think Ad Naus wants this but zoo and other aggressive red decks might. Supreme Verdict and other sweepers just got a lot worse.
Well I don't think Ad Naus wants this but zoo and other aggressive red decks might. Supreme Verdict and other sweepers just got a lot worse.
This is an excellent answer to supreme verdict. I really dislike this card. If you cast it during your opponent's upkeep, it denies their draw step. If you cast it with spells on the stack, it's one of the best counterspells in modern.
I'm not sure I've ever been actually perturbed at a card going to print, but Glorious End got there. Seriously, what is up with that card - printed in red of all colours. The drawback is real, but can be mitigated/part of the plan.
Well I don't think Ad Naus wants this but zoo and other aggressive red decks might. Supreme Verdict and other sweepers just got a lot worse.
This is an excellent answer to supreme verdict. I really dislike this card. If you cast it during your opponent's upkeep, it denies their draw step. If you cast it with spells on the stack, it's one of the best counterspells in modern.
I'm not sure I've ever been actually perturbed at a card going to print, but Glorious End got there. Seriously, what is up with that card - printed in red of all colours. The drawback is real, but can be mitigated/part of the plan.
Really? I mean sure its potentially busted, its a colour bend at best, a huge break at worst, but I dont know.
The downside is too huge for it to see any real play. If you want to work around sweepers then Boros Charm is just better. That it exiles itself on resolution makes it not great for any kind of combo shenanigans.
With the recent uptick in eggs against I'm thinking we will see a KCI ban in the near future. The deck isn't unfair and is very vulnerable to hate, but it is painful to watch. The number of people timing out or going to a 20 minute turn after going to turns is high. If the deck doesn't die off soon on its own wizards will ban something (probably KCI) just for logistics.
I also think Eggs is a banning possibility, but I don't share your certainty about the current evidence. Do you have any source for "people...going to a 20 minute turn after going to turns" being a common occurrence? I know we can talk about it abstractly, but I'm wondering if you have any actual source here. For instance, when Sunrise got banned in 2013, I remember watching the GP at the time and a number of its rounds went super long. Interestingly, these weren't rounds in the T8. Most people just conceded to Holiday when Eggs got going. But earlier, people weren't conceding and at least two of the rounds went for 10+ minutes past extra turns.
Most of my evidence is anecdotal from fnms (where I also played eggs a few times) there's also been a few streamers showing the deck recently who have shown really long combo turns. Paul cheon and saffron olive I know have videos timing out on modo and the deck takes longer irl keeping track of all the mana and triggers. It's nit a huge deal for experienced players, but a lot of new to the deck people make rounds bad.
There's no indication that MTGO time factors into logistical bans. If anything, the MTGO time loss is a disadvantage for the Eggs pilot, not the opponent. This is different than in paper, where untimed "going to time" rounds benefit the Eggs pilots themselves. But consistent paper logistical issues would be a problem.
The main reason I cite MTGO is that we don't have any larger in person events since eggs has become more popular recently. Even though MTGO times don't motivate bannings the sheer amount of time it takes online will translate into paper events.
The downside is too huge for it to see any real play. If you want to work around sweepers then Boros Charm is just better. That it exiles itself on resolution makes it not great for any kind of combo shenanigans.
I think it could see play in zoo type builds or 8wack. I normally play control and against those decks your often relying on a sweeper because they barf out so many dorks. It has a potential to really spoil stabilizing plays wrath's, Rev's, your bigger better creature its final fortune with a counterspell attached to it. Not saying its broken but its a very strong anti-control affect for a deck that goldfishes 3-4 turn kills.
So full spoiler is up today and no real, usable, or "good" new answers and very few (if any) real stand-outs for actual play in Modern. Cancel was probably the most disappointing to see. But hey, at least we got a cheaper, sorcery-speed version of Electrickery?
Now to just wait for the B&R update and cross our fingers for the next set... A pattern that seems all too familiar at this point.
I have a feeling no blue control decks will see play until the big dude decks dont disappear or get severely nerfed. Urza's tower is a good ban in my book.
Lol banning Urza's Tower would nuke 3+ entire decks, two of which have been around for years (there including the several flavors of Tron that runs Karn). The standard GW Tron has never proven to be too good for Modern. U Tron is a control deck with the tron lands so I don't get why you think big mana is the thing keeping control back.
EdraziTron works because of Eldrazi Temple, if it had to rely only on Tron Lands it wouldn't exist.
So if EldraziTron is a problem option A is to ban Temple and option B ban Reality Smasher or one of the other Eldrazis. Option A destroys the deck, option B hits it very hard (and maybe also renders it unplayable). I personally think they were complete retards to print a modern capable deck in a single set and the guy who designed the Eldrazi should be fired for inflicting his inner Timmy on the rest of us.
I mean, Goblins as one of the game's most popular tribes have been pining for something to make them good enough for years while Eldrazis got an entire deck in a single set. That's just rude
I don't think Eldrazi Tron is a problem, a lot of people don't think the deck is even that good. Bant Eldrazi I think is much better. But I agree that it was a huge mistake on WotC's part to purposely push Eldrazi to see Modern play. They pushed a little too hard.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I would not mind seeing an Ancient Stirrings ban to weaken the colorless strategies now that the drawback is hardly a drawback. Then the Bant Eldrazi deck for example would be a little more prone to traditional ramp problems where you deal with their Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher and they have to deal with drawing Noble Hierarch instead of Ancient Stirrings for another Reality Smasher.
The Eldrazi cards seeing play in Modern do seem a little strong still with Eldrazi Temple still available. I can live with them however.
But Eldrazi and Tron aren't causing any problems. All the Eldrazi and Tron together is like 10% of the meta online and none of them dominate paper events. Tron has existed since the beginning of the format and it still almost never gets a t8.
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Splinter twin is probably a better "blue" unban if anything and it kind of has the same problem. Fine (you can deal with it) and not Fine (no-one plays 4 drops) at the same time.
Again I am in agreement with PVDDR in that Fact or Fiction reprint is what is needed to boost blue control the card draw/filter options just aren't strong enough. At 4 mana makes it more attractive for control rather than combo, although some kind of reanimator or solar flare deck would probably exist. WotC clearly likes the card fact or fiction, they keep reprinting it in non modern legal sets and keep trying to make alternate versions for standard that are never good enough. I am not sure if it is a the "feel bad" feeling of making the wrong piles (particularly for new players) that keeps it out of standard or not, they had no problem printing dig through time so power draw/filtering is fine for standard.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I do not have too much experience with modern magic, but a couple months ago I've sleeved up decks and began to play (switching from standard to modern). I noticed that blue as a color seems much weaker than it did before and is usually only splashed for card draw. After realizing that serum visions was the only decent modern cantrip I started wondering what the format would look like with ponder, preordain, and or brainstorm? Which decks would they help the most, would they improve blue as a color or would it hurt blue combo/control oriented decks by helping decks splashing blue like BGx? As let me know, do you think they would improve the format or hurt it?
In addition do you think that if WOTC unbans the blue cantrips should they ban or unban another card to help balance. I personally think bloodbraid elf seems like a good compromise.
Modern Decks:
URGifts StormRU
UBRGrixis ShadowRBU
Brainstorm has never been printed in a Modern legal set and is far above the power level of Modern, so it's never making its way into Modern.
Ponder and Preordain were banned due to adding too much consistency to combo decks. They left Serum Visions because, well, it's the fairest version of a top deck filter/cantrip. Ponder is almost on par with Brainstorm in terms of power level, so it's probably never coming off the banlist. Preordain has been widely discussed and debated on the forums. Most agree that it would help reactive blue strategies somewhat, however some argue that it would help combo too much, turning them into a boogeyman again. A few others argue that Preordain wouldn't even address blue's primary problem in Modern.
I also think Eggs is a banning possibility, but I don't share your certainty about the current evidence. Do you have any source for "people...going to a 20 minute turn after going to turns" being a common occurrence? I know we can talk about it abstractly, but I'm wondering if you have any actual source here. For instance, when Sunrise got banned in 2013, I remember watching the GP at the time and a number of its rounds went super long. Interestingly, these weren't rounds in the T8. Most people just conceded to Holiday when Eggs got going. But earlier, people weren't conceding and at least two of the rounds went for 10+ minutes past extra turns.
Most of my evidence is anecdotal from fnms (where I also played eggs a few times) there's also been a few streamers showing the deck recently who have shown really long combo turns. Paul cheon and saffron olive I know have videos timing out on modo and the deck takes longer irl keeping track of all the mana and triggers. It's nit a huge deal for experienced players, but a lot of new to the deck people make rounds bad.
What is KCI?
I have never heard this terminology before.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
Modern:
UWUW Control
UBRGrixis Shadow
URIzzet Phoenix
Krark-Clan Ironworks
Krark-Clan Ironworks
It's pretty much the engine that makes the deck work. The goal is to sac enough artifacts to make mana for Emrakul or a banefire or infinite spellbombs.
There's no indication that MTGO time factors into logistical bans. If anything, the MTGO time loss is a disadvantage for the Eggs pilot, not the opponent. This is different than in paper, where untimed "going to time" rounds benefit the Eggs pilots themselves. But consistent paper logistical issues would be a problem.
KCI = Krark-Clan Ironworks, a major Eggs engine.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
Well I don't think Ad Naus wants this but zoo and other aggressive red decks might. Supreme Verdict and other sweepers just got a lot worse.
I'm not sure I've ever been actually perturbed at a card going to print, but Glorious End got there. Seriously, what is up with that card - printed in red of all colours. The drawback is real, but can be mitigated/part of the plan.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Really? I mean sure its potentially busted, its a colour bend at best, a huge break at worst, but I dont know.
Spirits
Edit: oh, end step. Roger that.
U Merfolk
UB Tezzerator
UB Mill
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
The main reason I cite MTGO is that we don't have any larger in person events since eggs has become more popular recently. Even though MTGO times don't motivate bannings the sheer amount of time it takes online will translate into paper events.
I think it could see play in zoo type builds or 8wack. I normally play control and against those decks your often relying on a sweeper because they barf out so many dorks. It has a potential to really spoil stabilizing plays wrath's, Rev's, your bigger better creature its final fortune with a counterspell attached to it. Not saying its broken but its a very strong anti-control affect for a deck that goldfishes 3-4 turn kills.
Now to just wait for the B&R update and cross our fingers for the next set... A pattern that seems all too familiar at this point.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I don't think Eldrazi Tron is a problem, a lot of people don't think the deck is even that good. Bant Eldrazi I think is much better. But I agree that it was a huge mistake on WotC's part to purposely push Eldrazi to see Modern play. They pushed a little too hard.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
The Eldrazi cards seeing play in Modern do seem a little strong still with Eldrazi Temple still available. I can live with them however.
UBRGrixis Kiki Control
BGUSultai Shadow
GWRBushwhacker Zoo
EDH:
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
GWU Roon of the Hidden Realm