Clique dies to a gust of wind, Thing requires investment, Delver requires luck. So we need to rely on creatures that require a bunch of hoops? Sounds good to me, end of discussion.
clique still gives you a lot of value for playing it, delver doesn't require that luck to transform
i can understand that titi is the worst of the three but blue has good creatures
Efficient beaters are not in blue's section of the colour pie, I don't know what to tell you if you expect blue Tarmogoyf. That's in green's section of the colour pie, and they didn't even intend green to have such a powerful/efficient two drop.
I think you would benefit from realigning your expectations for how WotC prints cards. The colour pie is a thing (even if mangled at times).
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
The typical Junk list plays 14 pieces of removal in the 60, the typical Shadow deck is playing 12 pieces of removal in the 60---is Junk highly more interactive because of those 2 removal spells? You sound ignorant. The traditional Jund and Junk's plan is literally to discard, play goyf, and kill any creatures you lay down while beating you down. Everyone has agreed for years GBx has been the hallmark of interactive decks. It plays creatures and removes stuff, that's not interactive? LOL?! What?!
Your agreement about Affinity running 4x Galvanic blast is sooooooooooooo bad. You can't compare 4 pieces of removal to twelve, along with the discard package. How is discard not interacting with my opponent?! They aren't randomly discarding something like in 8Rack, I am choosing specifically what I feel is most disruptive to my plan. Do I want to discard a creature I can't handle? A removal I can't afford to take, a combo/enchantment piece? I don't understand how removal and discard isn't interacting. Is Lilliana of the Veil not interactive either? Please, I'm ******* begging you, what do you consider interactive in magic, playing an Esper deck that counters everything until it beats you down with a manland and tokens?
I have argued for over a year and a half that counterspell needs to be introduced into modern, telling me I play GBx and am selfishly defending my deck is not the issue here, I've definitely advocated for cards that I don't and will not play with. Crying about blue not having a counterspell and therefore taking away thoughtseize is ridiculous.
I want to make this clear---you know that midrange would not exist without Thoughtseize/IOK, right? It would not be competitively viable, it would be kitchen table magic at that point
Instead you demand for thoughtseize and Eldrazi Temple to be axed. Absolutely horrible, poorly thought-out arguments by you.
The only reason I suggested that a component of G/B/x be banned is because I firmly believe Wizards will likely never print good enough answers in blue again. This is the preferable option, but they simply don't want to do it. They've chosen not to time and time again. When they do make the occasional "mistake" like mental misstep its banned in a flash.
And if you go from the assumption that they won't do it how would you bring a semblance of balance to the colors in the format?
Please indulge me.
Stand alone products like the commander series or conspiracy that become legal in Modern but are never introduced into Standard.
WotC has time and time again said this is not and will never be a option for Modern. Why do people bring this up when its exclusion from possibility was shot down at the genesis of the the format.
Modern by design is supposed to be high-variance. There is a reason why the masses love the format, you can beat highly skilled players due to variance. I can't play a Modern deck to crush everything the same way I can pick up a Legacy deck to crush everything, that just isn't acceptable to have in Modern even though Death's Shadow is probably the closest thing I've played that literally crushes almost everything in the format. If something in the Death's Shadow deck doesn't eat a ban this month, I fully expect it's metagame share to keep on rising.
I don't mind that blue doesn't get a powerful counterspell actually, I just want a playable blue creature that is worth casting besides Snap. Is there anything? If they want us to have creature threats why can't I get a blue focused one? Torrential Gearhulk costs 6 and we all know how not great control decks are in this format.
vendilion clique? thing in the ice? delver of secrets?
I think what he means is one that is Modern viable which would mean it has some type of natural resistance to BGx's removal. This might sound a bit extreme on the surface but in reality is essentially what any threat needs to be competitive at this point.
I don't mind that blue doesn't get a powerful counterspell actually, I just want a playable blue creature that is worth casting besides Snap. Is there anything? If they want us to have creature threats why can't I get a blue focused one? Torrential Gearhulk costs 6 and we all know how not great control decks are in this format.
vendilion clique? thing in the ice? delver of secrets?
I think what he means is one that is Modern viable which would mean it has some type of natural resistance to BGx's removal. This might sound a bit extreme on the surface but in reality is essentially what any threat needs to be competitive at this point.
Correct, I'm not looking for a blue goyf. We don't need another one of those. Give us a pushed blue creature that doesn't suck and doesn't require a bunch of setup just to match up to something else that is great after you cast it. Curator of Mysteries is fine but it costs 4 cmc and requires other cards to use his ability. I've been working on a mono blue devotion deck which tries to capitalize on enchantments and one of the key creatures is Riptide Chimera. Is that creature any good? No because he requires cheap enchantments to pay for his "cumulative upkeep." The other cards that work mediocre with him are Spreading Seas, Sea's Claim and potentially Reality Acid. Is that strategy any good? No, probably not. There isn't much of anything worth casting creature wise in blue unless I haven't looked hard enough.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
I don't mind that blue doesn't get a powerful counterspell actually, I just want a playable blue creature that is worth casting besides Snap. Is there anything? If they want us to have creature threats why can't I get a blue focused one? Torrential Gearhulk costs 6 and we all know how not great control decks are in this format.
vendilion clique? thing in the ice? delver of secrets?
I think what he means is one that is Modern viable which would mean it has some type of natural resistance to BGx's removal. This might sound a bit extreme on the surface but in reality is essentially what any threat needs to be competitive at this point.
Correct, I'm not looking for a blue goyf. We don't need another one of those. Give us a pushed blue creature that doesn't suck and doesn't require a bunch of setup just to match up to something else that is great after you cast it. Curator of Mysteries is fine but it costs 4 cmc and requires other cards to use his ability. I've been working on a mono blue devotion deck which tries to capitalize on enchantments and one of the key creatures is Riptide Chimera. Is that creature any good? No because he requires cheap enchantments to pay for his "cumulative upkeep." The other cards that work mediocre with him are Spreading Seas, Sea's Claim and potentially Reality Acid. Is that strategy any good? No, probably not. There isn't much of anything worth casting creature wise in blue unless I haven't looked hard enough.
I don't mind that blue doesn't get a powerful counterspell actually, I just want a playable blue creature that is worth casting besides Snap. Is there anything? If they want us to have creature threats why can't I get a blue focused one? Torrential Gearhulk costs 6 and we all know how not great control decks are in this format.
vendilion clique? thing in the ice? delver of secrets?
I think what he means is one that is Modern viable which would mean it has some type of natural resistance to BGx's removal. This might sound a bit extreme on the surface but in reality is essentially what any threat needs to be competitive at this point.
Correct, I'm not looking for a blue goyf. We don't need another one of those. Give us a pushed blue creature that doesn't suck and doesn't require a bunch of setup just to match up to something else that is great after you cast it. Curator of Mysteries is fine but it costs 4 cmc and requires other cards to use his ability. I've been working on a mono blue devotion deck which tries to capitalize on enchantments and one of the key creatures is Riptide Chimera. Is that creature any good? No because he requires cheap enchantments to pay for his "cumulative upkeep." The other cards that work mediocre with him are Spreading Seas, Sea's Claim and potentially Reality Acid. Is that strategy any good? No, probably not. There isn't much of anything worth casting creature wise in blue unless I haven't looked hard enough.
Stitched Drake, Vexing Sphinx and Illusory Angel might work. Thanks for pointing those out. Angel seems decent after you resolve AV the same turn. Sphinx could work alongside the new Curator but I don't like that it has to die at some point.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
The way I see the color pie, the format should break down to this type of focus:
White, Green: Creature-based interaction (Goyf, Thalia, Melira when she was relevant)
Blue, Black: Spell-based interaction (Counters, Removal, Card Advantage)
Red: Aggro (Both spell and creature based, ex. Bolt and Temur Battle Rage or Goblin Guide and Monastary Swiftspear)
What we have now is:
White: Niche play by creatures (Thalia, Lingering Souls), one good removal spell (Path)
Blue: Stunted interactivity (Mana leak your one drop on turn 4?), bad Card Advantage (SV is not good, AV is not good right now)
Black: Best spell based interaction (Push, TS, IoK, LoTV), some of the best creatures (Tasigur, Angler)
Red: Actually doing exactly what it should with the cards it has (Take 3?)
Green: Best Creatures (Goyf, Heirarch), best card draw/filtering (Ancient Stirrings, Traverse)
Honorary mention for colorless: IMO Broken, but not as concerning (I think TKS and RS are just ridiculous)
Right now there is simply no point in not being BGx because the two best colors are far and away BG. I feel like POD/CoCo and Burn/RDW are the best examples of what the colors should do. Pod(CoCo) wins by interacting with creatures and their abilities, Burn/RDW are exactly what we have seen throughout the years. Taxes is another great example. Older Jund was a great example, where black would help grind the game down and provide incremental card advantage at cost, as green would fight for the win.
Blue doesn't get counterspell so we should punish Black with no thought-seize? That's not how you balance the format. Thank god WOTC doesn't listen to people like you, people like you only escalate more bans with that mob-mentality. Shadow, Traverse, Bauble, or Wraith may eat a ban, but banning thoughtseize would be hands down the dumbest, most destructive ban of all time in the format.
Blue doesn't suddenly get better with a thoughtseize ban, a ban like that would have ripple effects in the entire format. We would easily see more unfair things done in the format, which would actually make blue worse in effect.
I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit as I have thought about this a bit since reading the article http://www.starcitygames.com/article/34667_What-If-They-Were-Modern-Legal.html. Doesn't the position he takes against the addition of counterspell apply to Thoughtseize? I could see Thoughtseize eating a ban in a similar way to probe, the problem was Become Immense but they banned the powerful enabler instead of the op'ed pump spell. I could see them coming out and saying that for diversity of deck construction Thoughtseize will be banned. It does to much for to little and R&D have said that it is a card that is likely a design mistake and wouldn't be made today, It fits Chapin's deck design variance and a person could argue that cards like like Despise, Duress, and Blackmail would see play with a more rewarding "I choose to run the best to play around x discard spell" or "I choose to run x discard spell because its better Meta-game call". I would also argue that no only would blue get somewhat better but likely everything gets marginally better to some degree just because decks running discard(easily about 1/5th the meta-game) wouldn't be able to as reliably shred their opponents hand apart so your more likely to actually have your removal spell for a death's shadow or a gofy etc...I'm sure you see how this is going.
And while I don't agree and think that in formats with as many options as modern you will always have a given card be the best option available for a given function(obviously IoK simply becomes the new best 1c.c. discard spell), I do think that the Logic behind Chapin's "no counterspell" position is in line with WotC's as it is essentially a reworded variation of the justification given for not reprinting Counterspell to begin with and obviously that is a position they have reinforced with every set produced since 7th edition. Thoughtseize is certainly a vanilla powerful affect and WotC does not like those kind of things generally.
I brought up the topic of strong discard at the beginning of this thread. I think it is often overlooked, but I cannot imagine a worse feeling than having TS or IoK turn 1 or 2 against me. I dont mind my spells being countered, but having my hand stripped to bits is just super powerful.
A format without Thoughtseize would look even more non-interactive and linear than Modern at its worst in 2016. Formats with bad answers tend to be widely maligned. Formats with good answers tend to be widely enjoyed. Metagame diversity often reflects that enjoyment and the corresponding answer quality. I don't understand why players think that removing strong, early answers opens up the format to fair decks. It just opens up the format to the most consistent unfair, synergy-based combo decks that were previously torn apart by TS effects.
I'm getting the impression that the questions regarding thoughtseize are in response to claims that blue answers are too strong. The hypocracy is obvious to many players that claiming Counterspell is too powerful (or anything better than Censor) while the room sleeves up Thoughtseize.
Kind of a 'Mutually Assured Destruction' attitude to take. Certainly, I find it MAD to suggest that Thoughseize shouldn't be part of the format. The frustration is impotent, so it becomes irrational.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
A format without Thoughtseize would look even more non-interactive and linear than Modern at its worst in 2016. Formats with bad answers tend to be widely maligned. Formats with good answers tend to be widely enjoyed. Metagame diversity often reflects that enjoyment and the corresponding answer quality. I don't understand why players think that removing strong, early answers opens up the format to fair decks. It just opens up the format to the most consistent unfair, synergy-based combo decks that were previously torn apart by TS effects.
Well I think the frustration comes from how black discard spells are like clearly better than blue counterspells. The discard spells in Modern see play in Legacy, I cannot say the same about the same about the Counterspells that define Modern, if they do define Modern at all.
Efficient beaters are not in blue's section of the colour pie, I don't know what to tell you if you expect blue Tarmogoyf. That's in green's section of the colour pie, and they didn't even intend green to have such a powerful/efficient two drop.
I think you would benefit from realigning your expectations for how WotC prints cards. The colour pie is a thing (even if mangled at times).
Yeah, let’s talk about the color pie. So what is blue’s identity then in modern? As far as I can tell, it’s a few cantrips, some average card draw/selection spells, counterspells that are either good early game or late game, so you better hope draw the right ones at the right time (while leaning heavily on another color), and Snapcaster Mage.
The printing of Censor was the third strike for me. Missing out on Prohibit in BFZ, a card that would have been perfect for modern and not tag the fatties that see play in standard (as far as I know), was upsetting. Then, the lack of any revolt enabled counter was an egregious omission in my opinion. Finally, the unplayable Censor taking the place of Miscalculation is simply an affront at this point. So if I take your advice and “realign my expectations”, what should I expect exactly? Limited playable counterspells and sphinxes for as long as I want to continue playing blue in magic? Maybe I’m entitled, it’s possible, but I just look at the things that get printed for other slices of the color pie and I can’t help but feel a little left out.
You mentioned that the color pie was “mangled at times”, and it seems to be a growing trend in certain directions. Blue is essentially limited to the functions mentioned above in modern (with the notable exception going to merfolk), while another color, that shall remain nameless, has the most efficient/resilient creatures, has a 3 mana vindicate with an often irrelevant downside, increasing amounts of graveyard recursion, access to strong card draw/selection options that are justified by them being centered around creatures or lands, a spell that can cheat 6 mana worth of creatures onto the battlefield at instant speed for 4 mana, modern playable tutor capabilities, the ability to accelerate mana development, effects that grow its creatures both permanently and temporarily, graveyard hate, and has a growing repertoire of creatures with spells simply attached to them, or with repeatable abilities.
Just to be clear, I don’t want mono blue tyranny, just a counterspell that I can play on turn two, and turn twelve and feel like it was a worthwhile inclusion in my deck, or a win condition that isn’t just laughed off by my opponent and they continue to mash my face with beaters. Why does one player get to cast a Goyf on turn two and actively begin winning the game while another isn’t even allowed to unconditionally counter a spell for the same amount of mana just to prevent themselves from dying?
If you use Rosewater's and Forsythe's comments to craft a theory, i would say that Hour of Devastation will bring something pushed for Blue to use. Rosewater said that Hour will be the first set that they could apply recent concerns and knowledge by the community, and Forsythe said he will adress blue issues in Modern.
I don't think they will unban any card. Jace if they feel that it is safer than safest. And Preordain if they change their goals for the format. Both seem dubious at best. I'm personally avoiding getting to close to any blue archetype because i feel they will make some changes in the format.
Also, i think some Shadow piece can be avoid being banned by empowering a struggling archetype like Control to give people reasons to not just jam 4 TS and 4 Shadows and call it a day.
i feel like faeries doing well might be a sign of blue getting better. this might hinder any change that a banlist update would fix because "there is no issue"...although we still need another push in the right direction. It might be another situation of no changes at best, at worst we have a banning of something in the death's shadow decks that puts blue back down a peg due to the lack of a predator in the metagame cycle. I think if innovative thinking prevails we might see a corrective unban that gives blue control more matchups to prey upon, but I doubt it. If they do ban something from death's shadow Im guessing that the looming ban of something from big mana would eventually be next. But with the current state of modern I think they hope to keep printing good cards that help out...which I prefer (our perspective of wizards is that they are just too scared to take risks in standard, but frequent checks of the banlist in standard and modern might change that).
Faeries is a meta deck that specifically counters DS decks since almost everything they cast is 1 mana or less.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
The irony of course that the two blue creatures that snuck into modern, Delver and Snapcaster are design oversights. If it weren't for them the color would nigh unplayable.
Barring other such design mistakes (Psychatog and Palinchron in their heyday?), the color relies on the weight of its spells (and sometimes interaction with artifacts) to shore up its substandard creatures.
So if blues traditional answers are:
1) Tap opposition
2) Bounce
3) Counter
All three are diminished in modern. The first two have usually been soft answers, no? Inability to deal with troublesome permanents in a deciding fashion as trade off for having the ultimate answer in counterspells. They have since become worse because so many creatures provide value just by being played. Just look at Eidolon of the Great Revel. You get shocked just for temporarily bouncing it. This pattern continues into many other creatures eg. Reality Smasher.
Then Counters have become directly weakened by printing Aether Vial, Cavern of Souls, Boseiju and similar cards that can slot into many decks.
On top of that they're printed to be narrow. The design intent is to have them situational as a trade of for being powerful. But that doesn't work because you need at least one good one to build around. If G/B/x becomes kitchen table magic upon losing Thoughtsieze then that also applies to Blue without a stock Counterspell?
Now personally, I think counterspell.dec is *****. I play Mono U Tron because I like the challenge of thinking how to resolve a problem and further my gameplan - not because I want a deck where I can just counter anything for 10 turns and then win. I wouldn't play that deck if it was a thing and Tier 1. In fact I'd probably hate it.
But the inability to deal with early plays is frustrating and crippling. An opening hand which consists of Remand, Repeal, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Negate, Cryptic Command (fictional hand of course) doesn't stop a piddly Goblin Guide. With one land on board you can't do anything. With 2 lands you can cycle your repeal and remand. By the time you can play Cryptic you're dead. Etc. Sure there is a Mana Leak there somewhere if that's your intent. Maybe the turn you bought was enough (probably not).
But a T1 Thoughtsieze or Inquisition solve your problems. TS directly because its that good, IoK indirectly because the format is full of aggressively costed spells.
If you use Rosewater's and Forsythe's comments to craft a theory, i would say that Hour of Devastation will bring something pushed for Blue to use. Rosewater said that Hour will be the first set that they could apply recent concerns and knowledge by the community, and Forsythe said he will adress blue issues in Modern.
I don't think they will unban any card. Jace if they feel that it is safer than safest. And Preordain if they change their goals for the format. Both seem dubious at best. I'm personally avoiding getting to close to any blue archetype because i feel they will make some changes in the format.
Also, i think some Shadow piece can be avoid being banned by empowering a struggling archetype like Control to give people reasons to not just jam 4 TS and 4 Shadows and call it a day.
Where is this statement by Forysthe?
Why do you think they'd unban Jace or Ponder?
Snapcaster isn't a design oversight. Tiago designed him this way and WOTC agreed. Maro said the only thing he would change about snapcaster is make him red.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
A format without Thoughtseize would look even more non-interactive and linear than Modern at its worst in 2016. Formats with bad answers tend to be widely maligned. Formats with good answers tend to be widely enjoyed. Metagame diversity often reflects that enjoyment and the corresponding answer quality. I don't understand why players think that removing strong, early answers opens up the format to fair decks. It just opens up the format to the most consistent unfair, synergy-based combo decks that were previously torn apart by TS effects.
I don't dislike it, I just find a level of inconsistency to the logic as to why its fine but other cards are potentially not. I gave the example of the logic against adding Counterspell to Modern, but I also think that it is in line with other lines of reason given for other cards.
Take Metal Misstep for example, the most common complaint is that it becomes a who has their MM format. I look at this as nearly a comical point to make as we have been a "who gets to play their T1 discard spell first" format for almost the entirety of its existence. T1 IoK discard your discard spell seems far less interactive than MM wars and Modern is a format in which MM would actually function in line with its design i.e. a Force of Will type affect that is available to all with out the problem Legacy experienced which is that Force of Will is a legal and commonly played card and MM is blue. MM would also give help non-black decks combat the ubiquitous presence of 1c.c. targeted discard. If anything targeted discard can be far worse as it puts more primacy on winning the die roll than MM and the very real and rather common T1 Iok discard your T1 play, T2 double discard into leaving you with nothing is not very skill rewarding.
Its not that I don't want powerful affects in Modern its that people will use as defense for one card the same logic as they would use against another, it would just become who has the MM to protect what they are doing or disrupt what the opponent is doing....but I must have TS and IoK to protect what I'm doing or disrupt what the opponent is doing? The format would become far less interactive without TS and IoK.....the format become much more focused on interaction with MM. If it is okay and even a positive thing that the format has a devolved into a who is on the play and do you have IoK or Thoughtseize format this seems like pure Cognitive Dissonance to me. No one would apply the reasoning Chapin gave against Counterspell to Thoughtseize but when its applied to Counterspell its suddenly a very valid point?
I mean I nearly crapped laughing at the idea of Temur Shadow list posted on Modern Nexus. Not because the deck wouldn't be good or anything though I don't think that it would(i think just straight RUG would be better than bending over backwards for the TS DS package). Because it really showcases just how completely driven by targeted 1c.c. discard the format is, the deck should have been called four color monkey grow your not just splashing for a sideboard card or one of top end card the deck is splashing for access to TS and DS plus fatal push plus KCommand main deck.
As promised, first batch of online data for April so far:
Dredge - 13%
UR Storm - 7%
Grixis/w Shadow - 6%
Elves - 6%
Bant Eldrazi - 5%
Jund/w Shadow - 4%
Eldrazi Tron - 4%
Abzan Midrange - 4%
Burn - 4%
Jund Midrange - 3%
The metagame is likely shifting towards Dredge and Elves to fight Shadow decks off. Grixis version holding on, but Jund one took a big one (it was 12.0% last month). Trends: Dredge, UR Storm and Bant Eldrazi continues rising since February, while Affinity and Eldrazi Tron keep falling. Any thoughts?
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Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
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clique still gives you a lot of value for playing it, delver doesn't require that luck to transform
i can understand that titi is the worst of the three but blue has good creatures
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
I think you would benefit from realigning your expectations for how WotC prints cards. The colour pie is a thing (even if mangled at times).
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
WotC has time and time again said this is not and will never be a option for Modern. Why do people bring this up when its exclusion from possibility was shot down at the genesis of the the format.
I think what he means is one that is Modern viable which would mean it has some type of natural resistance to BGx's removal. This might sound a bit extreme on the surface but in reality is essentially what any threat needs to be competitive at this point.
Correct, I'm not looking for a blue goyf. We don't need another one of those. Give us a pushed blue creature that doesn't suck and doesn't require a bunch of setup just to match up to something else that is great after you cast it. Curator of Mysteries is fine but it costs 4 cmc and requires other cards to use his ability. I've been working on a mono blue devotion deck which tries to capitalize on enchantments and one of the key creatures is Riptide Chimera. Is that creature any good? No because he requires cheap enchantments to pay for his "cumulative upkeep." The other cards that work mediocre with him are Spreading Seas, Sea's Claim and potentially Reality Acid. Is that strategy any good? No, probably not. There isn't much of anything worth casting creature wise in blue unless I haven't looked hard enough.
Mono Blue Devotion Concept
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
do they have to be creatures? i mean blue isn't exactly know for his creatures rather than for his spells
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Maybe something like: Shorecrasher Elemental, Stitched Drake, Vexing Sphinx, Coralhelm Commander (Illusory Angel) ?
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
White, Green: Creature-based interaction (Goyf, Thalia, Melira when she was relevant)
Blue, Black: Spell-based interaction (Counters, Removal, Card Advantage)
Red: Aggro (Both spell and creature based, ex. Bolt and Temur Battle Rage or Goblin Guide and Monastary Swiftspear)
What we have now is:
White: Niche play by creatures (Thalia, Lingering Souls), one good removal spell (Path)
Blue: Stunted interactivity (Mana leak your one drop on turn 4?), bad Card Advantage (SV is not good, AV is not good right now)
Black: Best spell based interaction (Push, TS, IoK, LoTV), some of the best creatures (Tasigur, Angler)
Red: Actually doing exactly what it should with the cards it has (Take 3?)
Green: Best Creatures (Goyf, Heirarch), best card draw/filtering (Ancient Stirrings, Traverse)
Honorary mention for colorless: IMO Broken, but not as concerning (I think TKS and RS are just ridiculous)
Right now there is simply no point in not being BGx because the two best colors are far and away BG. I feel like POD/CoCo and Burn/RDW are the best examples of what the colors should do. Pod(CoCo) wins by interacting with creatures and their abilities, Burn/RDW are exactly what we have seen throughout the years. Taxes is another great example. Older Jund was a great example, where black would help grind the game down and provide incremental card advantage at cost, as green would fight for the win.
I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit as I have thought about this a bit since reading the article http://www.starcitygames.com/article/34667_What-If-They-Were-Modern-Legal.html. Doesn't the position he takes against the addition of counterspell apply to Thoughtseize? I could see Thoughtseize eating a ban in a similar way to probe, the problem was Become Immense but they banned the powerful enabler instead of the op'ed pump spell. I could see them coming out and saying that for diversity of deck construction Thoughtseize will be banned. It does to much for to little and R&D have said that it is a card that is likely a design mistake and wouldn't be made today, It fits Chapin's deck design variance and a person could argue that cards like like Despise, Duress, and Blackmail would see play with a more rewarding "I choose to run the best to play around x discard spell" or "I choose to run x discard spell because its better Meta-game call". I would also argue that no only would blue get somewhat better but likely everything gets marginally better to some degree just because decks running discard(easily about 1/5th the meta-game) wouldn't be able to as reliably shred their opponents hand apart so your more likely to actually have your removal spell for a death's shadow or a gofy etc...I'm sure you see how this is going.
And while I don't agree and think that in formats with as many options as modern you will always have a given card be the best option available for a given function(obviously IoK simply becomes the new best 1c.c. discard spell), I do think that the Logic behind Chapin's "no counterspell" position is in line with WotC's as it is essentially a reworded variation of the justification given for not reprinting Counterspell to begin with and obviously that is a position they have reinforced with every set produced since 7th edition. Thoughtseize is certainly a vanilla powerful affect and WotC does not like those kind of things generally.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
A format without Thoughtseize would look even more non-interactive and linear than Modern at its worst in 2016. Formats with bad answers tend to be widely maligned. Formats with good answers tend to be widely enjoyed. Metagame diversity often reflects that enjoyment and the corresponding answer quality. I don't understand why players think that removing strong, early answers opens up the format to fair decks. It just opens up the format to the most consistent unfair, synergy-based combo decks that were previously torn apart by TS effects.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Kind of a 'Mutually Assured Destruction' attitude to take. Certainly, I find it MAD to suggest that Thoughseize shouldn't be part of the format. The frustration is impotent, so it becomes irrational.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Well I think the frustration comes from how black discard spells are like clearly better than blue counterspells. The discard spells in Modern see play in Legacy, I cannot say the same about the same about the Counterspells that define Modern, if they do define Modern at all.
Yeah, let’s talk about the color pie. So what is blue’s identity then in modern? As far as I can tell, it’s a few cantrips, some average card draw/selection spells, counterspells that are either good early game or late game, so you better hope draw the right ones at the right time (while leaning heavily on another color), and Snapcaster Mage.
The printing of Censor was the third strike for me. Missing out on Prohibit in BFZ, a card that would have been perfect for modern and not tag the fatties that see play in standard (as far as I know), was upsetting. Then, the lack of any revolt enabled counter was an egregious omission in my opinion. Finally, the unplayable Censor taking the place of Miscalculation is simply an affront at this point. So if I take your advice and “realign my expectations”, what should I expect exactly? Limited playable counterspells and sphinxes for as long as I want to continue playing blue in magic? Maybe I’m entitled, it’s possible, but I just look at the things that get printed for other slices of the color pie and I can’t help but feel a little left out.
You mentioned that the color pie was “mangled at times”, and it seems to be a growing trend in certain directions. Blue is essentially limited to the functions mentioned above in modern (with the notable exception going to merfolk), while another color, that shall remain nameless, has the most efficient/resilient creatures, has a 3 mana vindicate with an often irrelevant downside, increasing amounts of graveyard recursion, access to strong card draw/selection options that are justified by them being centered around creatures or lands, a spell that can cheat 6 mana worth of creatures onto the battlefield at instant speed for 4 mana, modern playable tutor capabilities, the ability to accelerate mana development, effects that grow its creatures both permanently and temporarily, graveyard hate, and has a growing repertoire of creatures with spells simply attached to them, or with repeatable abilities.
Just to be clear, I don’t want mono blue tyranny, just a counterspell that I can play on turn two, and turn twelve and feel like it was a worthwhile inclusion in my deck, or a win condition that isn’t just laughed off by my opponent and they continue to mash my face with beaters. Why does one player get to cast a Goyf on turn two and actively begin winning the game while another isn’t even allowed to unconditionally counter a spell for the same amount of mana just to prevent themselves from dying?
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I don't think they will unban any card. Jace if they feel that it is safer than safest. And Preordain if they change their goals for the format. Both seem dubious at best. I'm personally avoiding getting to close to any blue archetype because i feel they will make some changes in the format.
Also, i think some Shadow piece can be avoid being banned by empowering a struggling archetype like Control to give people reasons to not just jam 4 TS and 4 Shadows and call it a day.
Faeries is a meta deck that specifically counters DS decks since almost everything they cast is 1 mana or less.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Snapcaster isn't a design oversight. Tiago designed him this way and WOTC agreed. Maro said the only thing he would change about snapcaster is make him red.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
I don't dislike it, I just find a level of inconsistency to the logic as to why its fine but other cards are potentially not. I gave the example of the logic against adding Counterspell to Modern, but I also think that it is in line with other lines of reason given for other cards.
Take Metal Misstep for example, the most common complaint is that it becomes a who has their MM format. I look at this as nearly a comical point to make as we have been a "who gets to play their T1 discard spell first" format for almost the entirety of its existence. T1 IoK discard your discard spell seems far less interactive than MM wars and Modern is a format in which MM would actually function in line with its design i.e. a Force of Will type affect that is available to all with out the problem Legacy experienced which is that Force of Will is a legal and commonly played card and MM is blue. MM would also give help non-black decks combat the ubiquitous presence of 1c.c. targeted discard. If anything targeted discard can be far worse as it puts more primacy on winning the die roll than MM and the very real and rather common T1 Iok discard your T1 play, T2 double discard into leaving you with nothing is not very skill rewarding.
Its not that I don't want powerful affects in Modern its that people will use as defense for one card the same logic as they would use against another, it would just become who has the MM to protect what they are doing or disrupt what the opponent is doing....but I must have TS and IoK to protect what I'm doing or disrupt what the opponent is doing? The format would become far less interactive without TS and IoK.....the format become much more focused on interaction with MM. If it is okay and even a positive thing that the format has a devolved into a who is on the play and do you have IoK or Thoughtseize format this seems like pure Cognitive Dissonance to me. No one would apply the reasoning Chapin gave against Counterspell to Thoughtseize but when its applied to Counterspell its suddenly a very valid point?
I mean I nearly crapped laughing at the idea of Temur Shadow list posted on Modern Nexus. Not because the deck wouldn't be good or anything though I don't think that it would(i think just straight RUG would be better than bending over backwards for the TS DS package). Because it really showcases just how completely driven by targeted 1c.c. discard the format is, the deck should have been called four color monkey grow your not just splashing for a sideboard card or one of top end card the deck is splashing for access to TS and DS plus fatal push plus KCommand main deck.
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium