Let's get rid of tron so blue can be good. Then we get rid of abzan so burn is good. Then ban burn so control is even better. Then ban control. Eventually we can play grizzly bear in modern.
Seriously though. How can anyone suggest getting rid of an existing popular archetype that doesn't top 8 ever on the off chance it makes their deck easier to play.
Let's get rid of tron so blue can be good. Then we get rid of abzan so burn is good. Then ban burn so control is even better. Then ban control. Eventually we can play grizzly bear in modern.
Seriously though. How can anyone suggest getting rid of an existing popular archetype that doesn't top 8 ever on the off chance it makes their deck easier to play.
I really do not get the logic for those people cry for the ban to nerf Tron.
Tron is definitely beatable if you can adjust your deck list properly.
All of my decks either have some tools to play against Tron, or simply ignore it because of the good match up.
I see a lot of people complaining about Tron and other big mana decks because they mean that "control can't be good". I play control and the majority of the time it's not those decks that give me trouble...
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
Twin is rightfully locked up with the likes of BBE, SS, and Pod for actually being bad for the format.
I could see them unbanning SFM, I don't think they will since SFM is a highly visible card in Legacy and WotC has stated that they would like modern to be a visibly different format than Legacy which I imagine to mean if its a legacy staple it probably will not see a day off the banned list.
Currently the format seems to fit the desire of a highly diverse format in which you can build any deck well enough to compete within reason, unbanning SFM just helps a bunch of decks that don't need the help more than it helps the decks that could actually use it.
lets hope that we can get some good modern level playable cards that don't have BG in the c.c. We get it WotC the Rock used to suck and it was laughably called the best worst deck for years and you wanted to prove that it could be good, now its leaps and bounds better than anything any other color is capable of. Direct some of that energy to UWR for awhile please.
By highly visible do you mean a card that has been on a decline for a number of years now? Stoneforge sees play mainly in Death & Taxes and Stoneblade, stoneblade as an archtype is no where near the strength it used to be and when you think of Death & Taxes Stoneforge is hardly the first card you think of.
White itself, like blue is on the weaker end of the spectrum in modern and could do some good.
People are like this over every single ban, do you remember the comments people used to say about Ancestral Visions or Bitterblossom before it was unbanned?
I could see them unbanning SFM, I don't think they will since SFM is a highly visible card in Legacy and WotC has stated that they would like modern to be a visibly different format than Legacy which I imagine to mean if its a legacy staple it probably will not see a day off the banned list.
Thoughtseize, Fetchlands, Tarmogoyf, Lightning Bolt, and Snapcaster Mage are also all highly visible legacy cards. If they really wanted modern to be visibly different, they should have banned these cards as well. In the case of Bolt and Fetches, they are much more commonly played in legacy than Stoneforge is.
Can people really argue that Stoneforge's power level is even close to that of Tarmogoyf?
I honestly think it's time for Preordain to come off, but I have a feeling that Wizards is not ready yet. Usually when a format is solid like it is currently, there will be "no changes." I guess they feel like "why mess with a good thing?"
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Twin is rightfully locked up with the likes of BBE, SS, and Pod for actually being bad for the format.
I could see them unbanning SFM, I don't think they will since SFM is a highly visible card in Legacy and WotC has stated that they would like modern to be a visibly different format than Legacy which I imagine to mean if its a legacy staple it probably will not see a day off the banned list.
Currently the format seems to fit the desire of a highly diverse format in which you can build any deck well enough to compete within reason, unbanning SFM just helps a bunch of decks that don't need the help more than it helps the decks that could actually use it.
lets hope that we can get some good modern level playable cards that don't have BG in the c.c. We get it WotC the Rock used to suck and it was laughably called the best worst deck for years and you wanted to prove that it could be good, now its leaps and bounds better than anything any other color is capable of. Direct some of that energy to UWR for awhile please.
By highly visible do you mean a card that has been on a decline for a number of years now? Stoneforge sees play mainly in Death & Taxes and Stoneblade, stoneblade as an archtype is no where near the strength it used to be and when you think of Death & Taxes Stoneforge is hardly the first card you think of.
White itself, like blue is on the weaker end of the spectrum in modern and could do some good.
People are like this over every single ban, do you remember the comments people used to say about Ancestral Visions or Bitterblossom before it was unbanned?
High visibility yes it is a legacy staple and will always be good in legacy. The fact that it is on the decline currently doesn't remove its status as a highly visible legacy card, I know people who if you say "goblins" they say oh legacy right? not knowing that goblins has been garbage in legacy for years now, but it is still a staple of the format as far as being a visible and known element.
I noted that WUR could all use some of the energy WotC seems to put into GB cards redirected towards them.
Yes I do remember comments regarding AV and Bitterblossom and like anything some people will always see the shingles falling off the Firmament and others had more sound opinions. The difference between those cards and SFM or JtmS is that they didn't break a format, they had been format defining cards yes and WotC avoided them because they didn't want the first Modern meta to simply be a greatest hits of the past standards/extended formats that is not why SFM and JtmS had been banned.
Like I said, I would actually be fine with unbanning SFM....for that matter I would be fine with unbanning JtmS and MM also. In general I do not like the logic behind many of the preemptive strike bans of "its great in legacy hence its to good for modern" SFM is probably IMO the better of the 3 for modern in so far as power level:play ability are concerned, MM is good at slowing down matches and punishing aggro and injecting a FoW level T0 counter into the format but it doesn't warp the format any harder than IoK and TS already have, JtmS is probably to slow to play in any deck not looking to prey on mid-range decks so maybe its existence would make mid-range worse but that might not be so bad, SFM is actually cheap enough to be MD and flexible enough to allow for MD hate in the form of 1 of's swords ntm BS.
Just because I think that SFM actually doesn't improve W's position in Modern outside of adding 1 more card to the MD worthy W splash that is Path and Lingering souls doesn't mean I don't think it would be okay to unban. Regardless of what I think, I do not think WotC will unban SFM because it so easily slots into some of the best decks in the format and they have openly stated that they do not look to unban things that are a direct boon to strategies that are already doing fine. One is my ideal, the other is the practical logical conclusion and they do not mesh well but ideals often do not mesh well with reality. Its like when people say "all the colors should be equally playable and we will have balance" okay, that is a nice ideal but the practical side of that is likely impossible as it has never once been achieved in MTG history.
Regardless I would still be fine with all 3 being unbanned because if they are actually a problem like BBE, Twin, Pod, or GGT then a seat awaits them in the "sorry you are to good for your own good" section of the banned list. The only card I think is a must to stay banned is Hypergenesis and only because a practical shell already exists for the Combo and is certainly better than the current Restore balance plan.
Stoneforge Mystic is at about 66% right now in the unbanning poll. Interesting the degree to which people have changed their mind on that card versus just a year or two ago.
Stoneforge Mystic is at about 66% right now in the unbanning poll. Interesting the degree to which people have changed their mind on that card versus just a year or two ago.
I agree with you.
Remember there are couple of people here against SFM unban because it will make Abzan dominate the META...
Many people also believe Tron is an autopilot deck, and that there's not much thinking involved in the decisions Tron makes, as well as the fact that it's a very swingy deck in that it crushes half of its matchups and gets crushed by the other half, means most iterations of Tron aren't fun to play as or against. This is why there's so much deserved vitriol towards it.
Lots of people believe in things that are wrong. Someone having an incorrect belief regarding the deck is hardly a reason to act on said incorrect belief.
And while Tron isn't the only thing keeping control down it's definitely somewhere in the top 10 on a list I'd make.
So how about, instead of trying to change what's at #10 and is therefore only a small factor, one of the 9 more important things is fixed?
Tron is a bad matchup for control. Whatever. Tron is also something like 3-5% of the metagame. So whatever happened to all of those control decks that never got matched up against it... even in a 15-round tournament like a Grand Prix, you have a very high chance of not getting paired up against a single Tron deck.
I do find it amusing that apparently Tron is so big an issue for control at its low percentage of the metagame but somehow, despite decks that are equally bad matchups for Tron (e.g. Burn) being at higher percentages of the metagame, Tron is able to do okay.
Oh, I'm sure someone would jump in with "because Tron is good against enough of the format!" Sure! But that just highlights the silliness of whining about Tron in regards to control: The problem is the rest of the format, not 3-5% of it that Tron occupies. One might as well blame Tron for the fact Tribal Spiders is a mediocre deck.
Honestly, the one thing I'd like to see banned from modern is Simian Spirit Guide, and want to see them at least experiment with unbanning Splinter Twin and Stoneforge mystic. However, the caveat with twin is that they ban Deceiver Exarch. Also, call me crazy but birthing pod doesn't feel like it would be format breaking right now either. Not saying they would unban Birthing Pod, though.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
My predictions for monday are: 1)Unban Stoneforge Mystic, No bans
2)Unban Jace, TMS, No bans
3)Unban Both, No bans
4)No changes
Number 3 and 4 are the most probable in my book. I only brought up Jace because Forsythe said they were going to test him. They might have found they would like him being the flagship for blue so people can stop crying. However, i do think that an unban of both SFM and Jace is more probable if they took that route because white is a struggling colour right now and so is blue. They encourage players to try combinations of this cards that have seen much play in the past, even in Legacy, and on top of that, they avoid people jamming SFM in their Bant Eldrazi and Abzan decks and becoming the guys who saw an upgrade in their already-good arcehtypes. I also like the idea of a big unban to take some attention away from the best deck in Death's Shadow, so at least there is some artificial archetype balancing in the top tiers, whether or not the format can really handle Death's Shadow itself.
Those are the only cards that remain in the banlist that make any sense whatsoever to unban at this particular moment.
Stoneforge Mystic is at about 66% right now in the unbanning poll. Interesting the degree to which people have changed their mind on that card versus just a year or two ago.
Every year Modern gets a little more powerful than it was before. WotC has been trying to artificially suppress the power creep with bannings, but it's still more powerful despite the bannings. Jund dominated Modern for most of its history and barely exists anymore in its classic form. Twin was the star deck of 2015, and with the current meta I'm not sure it would even be tier 1 today.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Honestly, the one thing I'd like to see banned from modern is Simian Spirit Guide, and want to see them at least experiment with unbanning Splinter Twin and Stoneforge mystic. However, the caveat with twin is that they ban Deceiver Exarch. Also, call me crazy but birthing pod doesn't feel like it would be format breaking right now either. Not saying they would unban Birthing Pod, though.
happy you don't work for WotC
twin and pod are both deserving their banned status. Pod would be fantastic and invalidate a large swath of creature based decks, just the infinite life combo in Pod would make damage based fair decks pretty bad. I don't really understand the desire for more infinite instant win combo's as a Fix for anything. The notion that it would be a experiment is kinda silly as we have years worth of observation for both decks. SFM would be a experiment one I don't think would do much for the format other than give already very good decks a even better card. Maybe the Maverick version of Abzan becomes a unique deck on par with the other BGx decks? For that reason I don't think they would unban it but I don't think it would be as bad as say BBE just more ubiquitous and just a bit less back braking perhaps.
SSG might be ban worthy if everyone agrees that fast mana is deemed ban worthy. If goryo's is just crushing with SSG fueled speed or T1-2 Blood Moon is T0-0.5 it is likely the reason. Neither of those things are true so I don't think it would be banned regardless as I think probably a majority of players think the card is if not ban worthy a busted card.
Twin does not deserve its banned status. <-- Look mom, I too can make a statement without any kind of backing!
It wont be unbanned though, because as people have demonstrated with Twin before, and Copy Cat in Standard, people cannot handle having to think about tapping out. Its a big reason Combo is hated too. It controls what the other player can do, assuming they are intelligent enough to consider the outcome of their actions.
Regardless. I predict (sadly) no unbans. The format is stable, and in a good place. Thats boring, but the facts.
Twin does not deserve its banned status. <-- Look mom, I too can make a statement without any kind of backing!
It was a bit amusing that bizzycola just asserted that with no rationale (which is odd, as he bothered to give one for Pod).
It wont be unbanned though, because as people have demonstrated with Twin before, and Copy Cat in Standard, people cannot handle having to think about tapping out. Its a big reason Combo is hated too. It controls what the other player can do, assuming they are intelligent enough to consider the outcome of their actions.
The problem with CopyCat in Standard isn't people not handle having to think about tapping out, it's that Wizards of the Coast has nerfed answer cards to such a ridiculous extent that it's much harder to deal with than it should be. Splinter Twin caused no problems in Standard (it was a good deck, but not a problematic one), and a large part of that was the fact there were good ways to deal with it. Dismember is a whole lot better than Unlicensed Disintegration.
Of course, one can't say CopyCat is any bigger of a problem in Standard than Mardu Vehicles, and it's possibly less of one. If they had something like Pithing Needle around both decks would be much less of a problem (though, when I suggested that as a reprint elsewhere, someone actually took issue because they thought Pithing Needle was somehow too powerful of a card to have around--this is the kind of attitude that gets cultivated when answer cards are made so bad, you get people claiming Pithing freaking Needle is too powerful).
I could see them unbanning SFM, I don't think they will since SFM is a highly visible card in Legacy and WotC has stated that they would like modern to be a visibly different format than Legacy which I imagine to mean if its a legacy staple it probably will not see a day off the banned list.
Thoughtseize, Fetchlands, Tarmogoyf, Lightning Bolt, and Snapcaster Mage are also all highly visible legacy cards. If they really wanted modern to be visibly different, they should have banned these cards as well. In the case of Bolt and Fetches, they are much more commonly played in legacy than Stoneforge is.
Can people really argue that Stoneforge's power level is even close to that of Tarmogoyf?
First I don't think anyone is arguing Tarmogoyf:SFM power levels, But SFM is a undeniably powerful creature I don't think they are comparable because they have entirely different functions when used.
The argument I am giving regarding SFM is actually in relation to statements made by WotC, it is very similar to the justifications they used for banning Mental Misstep. SFM probably suffered a bit from "guilty by association" as it is known to hang around U which WotC hasn't been pretty shy about the fear that Modern would become another format dominated by U coming and taking all of G and B's women. Personally I think that either all of the Genesis ban's are equally safe to try or none of them are, we either do not know or do not care to know. So I am with you as I play Legacy and its a way different format than Modern and have since 2012 been annoyed that this was a standard held in the formation of the format.
I personally don't think unbanning anything really changes the condition of the format. Pretty much anything on the list that anyone discusses has never been format legal would most likely be amalgamated into a BGx deck because that shell is just so flexible potentially some random T3-2 deck gets a slight upgrade but its rather unlikely to break the BGx stranglehold on fair decks. IMO Mental Misstep is probably the only card on the list that if you unbanned it, it would increase the potency of Ux decks as it would give U T0 interaction to protect against things like fast aggro, IoK and TS and which can be respectably hard cast in later turns. For clarity I am only referencing to cards not banned for actual performance violations.
Twin does not deserve its banned status. <-- Look mom, I too can make a statement without any kind of backing!
It was a bit amusing that bizzycola just asserted that with no rationale (which is odd, as he bothered to give one for Pod).
It wont be unbanned though, because as people have demonstrated with Twin before, and Copy Cat in Standard, people cannot handle having to think about tapping out. Its a big reason Combo is hated too. It controls what the other player can do, assuming they are intelligent enough to consider the outcome of their actions.
The problem with CopyCat in Standard isn't people not handle having to think about tapping out, it's that Wizards of the Coast has nerfed answer cards to such a ridiculous extent that it's much harder to deal with than it should be. Splinter Twin caused no problems in Standard (it was a good deck, but not a problematic one), and a large part of that was the fact there were good ways to deal with it. Dismember is a whole lot better than Unlicensed Disintegration.
Of course, one can't say CopyCat is any bigger of a problem in Standard than Mardu Vehicles, and it's possibly less of one. If they had something like Pithing Needle around both decks would be much less of a problem (though, when I suggested that as a reprint elsewhere, someone actually took issue because they thought Pithing Needle was somehow too powerful of a card to have around--this is the kind of attitude that gets cultivated when answer cards are made so bad, you get people claiming Pithing freaking Needle is too powerful).
The issue with Copy cat is sort of part of my whole malaise with magic at the moment. I got reminded of what magic used to be and then looked at what it has become, and they basically made creatures too powerful, killed alternative angles of attack via armageddon, good counter magic, and just more effective sorceries and instants, and have been messing up the entire game with this yu-gi-oh style mythic rarity super powerful cards deal. The less I have to think about it the better, honestly.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Twin does not deserve its banned status. <-- Look mom, I too can make a statement without any kind of backing!
It wont be unbanned though, because as people have demonstrated with Twin before, and Copy Cat in Standard, people cannot handle having to think about tapping out. Its a big reason Combo is hated too. It controls what the other player can do, assuming they are intelligent enough to consider the outcome of their actions.
Regardless. I predict (sadly) no unbans. The format is stable, and in a good place. Thats boring, but the facts.
Either the justification provided by WotC is as valid for Twin as it is for GGT or given justifications for anything removed from the format for a performance violation is equally unjustly imprisoned or your just very bias.
People still have to think about tapping out, see now your just being a bit melodramatic insulting blindly everyone that doesn't agree with you..
I am happy to agree with your unbanning divination thumbs up great job!
Wizards- WHY did we not put Counterspell in this Standard? WHY? Our lives would be SO MUCH EASIER right now.
seriously, they talk about how it's hard for a card to get to Modern because of Standard, and they have been looking at a Standard that people would fall all over themselves for a card that stops a Vehicle or a planeswalker no questions asked, basically since the day Gideon was spoiled
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Wizards- WHY did we not put Counterspell in this Standard? WHY? Our lives would be SO MUCH EASIER right now.
seriously, they talk about how it's hard for a card to get to Modern because of Standard, and they have been looking at a Standard that people would fall all over themselves for a card that stops a Vehicle or a planeswalker no questions asked, basically since the day Gideon was spoiled
To make the long story short: Wizards designers decided they had to play the job of the fun police and take out anything that made new players upset. At least that is the hypothesis that is floating around with some on this board.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I have a gut feeling about bloodbraid elf coming off the ban list. that's about it. maybe that could boost jund's kinda-ish weak numbers. i don't know.
Wizards- WHY did we not put Counterspell in this Standard? WHY? Our lives would be SO MUCH EASIER right now.
seriously, they talk about how it's hard for a card to get to Modern because of Standard, and they have been looking at a Standard that people would fall all over themselves for a card that stops a Vehicle or a planeswalker no questions asked, basically since the day Gideon was spoiled
To make the long story short: Wizards designers decided they had to play the job of the fun police and take out anything that made new players upset. At least that is the hypothesis that is floating around with some on this board.
oh of course, that's how they roll. but I remember my time as a new player in Standard, i would much rather get countered every 5th game than alternate between getting hit by a car or a Gideon every single match
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Wizards- WHY did we not put Counterspell in this Standard? WHY? Our lives would be SO MUCH EASIER right now.
seriously, they talk about how it's hard for a card to get to Modern because of Standard, and they have been looking at a Standard that people would fall all over themselves for a card that stops a Vehicle or a planeswalker no questions asked, basically since the day Gideon was spoiled
To make the long story short: Wizards designers decided they had to play the job of the fun police and take out anything that made new players upset. At least that is the hypothesis that is floating around with some on this board.
oh of course, that's how they roll. but I remember my time as a new player in Standard, i would much rather get countered every 5th game than alternate between getting hit by a car or a Gideon every single match
To be frank Wizards sort of needs an affordable non-rotating format that can attract new blood into it along with standard just to act as a buffer so they can handle mistakes they may make in standard. Modern sort of works for that, but because it's been around so long most of the staple cards are way too costly to get players who play standard to step into the format.They either go to other games or gravitate towards commander. It's mostly due to them treating modern like the enemy to anything good and only reprinting cards in luxury products like the masters series due to fear of hurting collectors feelings, even though none of the cards are on any kind of reserve list in modern. It's just idiotic.
However, if they are taking feedback seriously they should start doing more reprints of older cards in standard sets. They already have plenty of good answers in the modern card pool, it's just picking out the ones that are not set specific. Kolaghan's command is pretty set specific, but Path to Exile and Maelstrom Pulse certainly aren't. Neither are double bounce cards from pre-modern or the original counterspell.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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Seriously though. How can anyone suggest getting rid of an existing popular archetype that doesn't top 8 ever on the off chance it makes their deck easier to play.
I really do not get the logic for those people cry for the ban to nerf Tron.
Tron is definitely beatable if you can adjust your deck list properly.
All of my decks either have some tools to play against Tron, or simply ignore it because of the good match up.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
By highly visible do you mean a card that has been on a decline for a number of years now? Stoneforge sees play mainly in Death & Taxes and Stoneblade, stoneblade as an archtype is no where near the strength it used to be and when you think of Death & Taxes Stoneforge is hardly the first card you think of.
White itself, like blue is on the weaker end of the spectrum in modern and could do some good.
People are like this over every single ban, do you remember the comments people used to say about Ancestral Visions or Bitterblossom before it was unbanned?
Thoughtseize, Fetchlands, Tarmogoyf, Lightning Bolt, and Snapcaster Mage are also all highly visible legacy cards. If they really wanted modern to be visibly different, they should have banned these cards as well. In the case of Bolt and Fetches, they are much more commonly played in legacy than Stoneforge is.
Can people really argue that Stoneforge's power level is even close to that of Tarmogoyf?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)High visibility yes it is a legacy staple and will always be good in legacy. The fact that it is on the decline currently doesn't remove its status as a highly visible legacy card, I know people who if you say "goblins" they say oh legacy right? not knowing that goblins has been garbage in legacy for years now, but it is still a staple of the format as far as being a visible and known element.
I noted that WUR could all use some of the energy WotC seems to put into GB cards redirected towards them.
Yes I do remember comments regarding AV and Bitterblossom and like anything some people will always see the shingles falling off the Firmament and others had more sound opinions. The difference between those cards and SFM or JtmS is that they didn't break a format, they had been format defining cards yes and WotC avoided them because they didn't want the first Modern meta to simply be a greatest hits of the past standards/extended formats that is not why SFM and JtmS had been banned.
Like I said, I would actually be fine with unbanning SFM....for that matter I would be fine with unbanning JtmS and MM also. In general I do not like the logic behind many of the preemptive strike bans of "its great in legacy hence its to good for modern" SFM is probably IMO the better of the 3 for modern in so far as power level:play ability are concerned, MM is good at slowing down matches and punishing aggro and injecting a FoW level T0 counter into the format but it doesn't warp the format any harder than IoK and TS already have, JtmS is probably to slow to play in any deck not looking to prey on mid-range decks so maybe its existence would make mid-range worse but that might not be so bad, SFM is actually cheap enough to be MD and flexible enough to allow for MD hate in the form of 1 of's swords ntm BS.
Just because I think that SFM actually doesn't improve W's position in Modern outside of adding 1 more card to the MD worthy W splash that is Path and Lingering souls doesn't mean I don't think it would be okay to unban. Regardless of what I think, I do not think WotC will unban SFM because it so easily slots into some of the best decks in the format and they have openly stated that they do not look to unban things that are a direct boon to strategies that are already doing fine. One is my ideal, the other is the practical logical conclusion and they do not mesh well but ideals often do not mesh well with reality. Its like when people say "all the colors should be equally playable and we will have balance" okay, that is a nice ideal but the practical side of that is likely impossible as it has never once been achieved in MTG history.
Regardless I would still be fine with all 3 being unbanned because if they are actually a problem like BBE, Twin, Pod, or GGT then a seat awaits them in the "sorry you are to good for your own good" section of the banned list. The only card I think is a must to stay banned is Hypergenesis and only because a practical shell already exists for the Combo and is certainly better than the current Restore balance plan.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I agree with you.
Remember there are couple of people here against SFM unban because it will make Abzan dominate the META...
Anyway...
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
So how about, instead of trying to change what's at #10 and is therefore only a small factor, one of the 9 more important things is fixed?
Tron is a bad matchup for control. Whatever. Tron is also something like 3-5% of the metagame. So whatever happened to all of those control decks that never got matched up against it... even in a 15-round tournament like a Grand Prix, you have a very high chance of not getting paired up against a single Tron deck.
I do find it amusing that apparently Tron is so big an issue for control at its low percentage of the metagame but somehow, despite decks that are equally bad matchups for Tron (e.g. Burn) being at higher percentages of the metagame, Tron is able to do okay.
Oh, I'm sure someone would jump in with "because Tron is good against enough of the format!" Sure! But that just highlights the silliness of whining about Tron in regards to control: The problem is the rest of the format, not 3-5% of it that Tron occupies. One might as well blame Tron for the fact Tribal Spiders is a mediocre deck.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
2)Unban Jace, TMS, No bans
3)Unban Both, No bans
4)No changes
Number 3 and 4 are the most probable in my book. I only brought up Jace because Forsythe said they were going to test him. They might have found they would like him being the flagship for blue so people can stop crying. However, i do think that an unban of both SFM and Jace is more probable if they took that route because white is a struggling colour right now and so is blue. They encourage players to try combinations of this cards that have seen much play in the past, even in Legacy, and on top of that, they avoid people jamming SFM in their Bant Eldrazi and Abzan decks and becoming the guys who saw an upgrade in their already-good arcehtypes. I also like the idea of a big unban to take some attention away from the best deck in Death's Shadow, so at least there is some artificial archetype balancing in the top tiers, whether or not the format can really handle Death's Shadow itself.
Those are the only cards that remain in the banlist that make any sense whatsoever to unban at this particular moment.
Every year Modern gets a little more powerful than it was before. WotC has been trying to artificially suppress the power creep with bannings, but it's still more powerful despite the bannings. Jund dominated Modern for most of its history and barely exists anymore in its classic form. Twin was the star deck of 2015, and with the current meta I'm not sure it would even be tier 1 today.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
happy you don't work for WotC
twin and pod are both deserving their banned status. Pod would be fantastic and invalidate a large swath of creature based decks, just the infinite life combo in Pod would make damage based fair decks pretty bad. I don't really understand the desire for more infinite instant win combo's as a Fix for anything. The notion that it would be a experiment is kinda silly as we have years worth of observation for both decks. SFM would be a experiment one I don't think would do much for the format other than give already very good decks a even better card. Maybe the Maverick version of Abzan becomes a unique deck on par with the other BGx decks? For that reason I don't think they would unban it but I don't think it would be as bad as say BBE just more ubiquitous and just a bit less back braking perhaps.
SSG might be ban worthy if everyone agrees that fast mana is deemed ban worthy. If goryo's is just crushing with SSG fueled speed or T1-2 Blood Moon is T0-0.5 it is likely the reason. Neither of those things are true so I don't think it would be banned regardless as I think probably a majority of players think the card is if not ban worthy a busted card.
It wont be unbanned though, because as people have demonstrated with Twin before, and Copy Cat in Standard, people cannot handle having to think about tapping out. Its a big reason Combo is hated too. It controls what the other player can do, assuming they are intelligent enough to consider the outcome of their actions.
Regardless. I predict (sadly) no unbans. The format is stable, and in a good place. Thats boring, but the facts.
Spirits
The problem with CopyCat in Standard isn't people not handle having to think about tapping out, it's that Wizards of the Coast has nerfed answer cards to such a ridiculous extent that it's much harder to deal with than it should be. Splinter Twin caused no problems in Standard (it was a good deck, but not a problematic one), and a large part of that was the fact there were good ways to deal with it. Dismember is a whole lot better than Unlicensed Disintegration.
Of course, one can't say CopyCat is any bigger of a problem in Standard than Mardu Vehicles, and it's possibly less of one. If they had something like Pithing Needle around both decks would be much less of a problem (though, when I suggested that as a reprint elsewhere, someone actually took issue because they thought Pithing Needle was somehow too powerful of a card to have around--this is the kind of attitude that gets cultivated when answer cards are made so bad, you get people claiming Pithing freaking Needle is too powerful).
First I don't think anyone is arguing Tarmogoyf:SFM power levels, But SFM is a undeniably powerful creature I don't think they are comparable because they have entirely different functions when used.
The argument I am giving regarding SFM is actually in relation to statements made by WotC, it is very similar to the justifications they used for banning Mental Misstep. SFM probably suffered a bit from "guilty by association" as it is known to hang around U which WotC hasn't been pretty shy about the fear that Modern would become another format dominated by U coming and taking all of G and B's women. Personally I think that either all of the Genesis ban's are equally safe to try or none of them are, we either do not know or do not care to know. So I am with you as I play Legacy and its a way different format than Modern and have since 2012 been annoyed that this was a standard held in the formation of the format.
I personally don't think unbanning anything really changes the condition of the format. Pretty much anything on the list that anyone discusses has never been format legal would most likely be amalgamated into a BGx deck because that shell is just so flexible potentially some random T3-2 deck gets a slight upgrade but its rather unlikely to break the BGx stranglehold on fair decks. IMO Mental Misstep is probably the only card on the list that if you unbanned it, it would increase the potency of Ux decks as it would give U T0 interaction to protect against things like fast aggro, IoK and TS and which can be respectably hard cast in later turns. For clarity I am only referencing to cards not banned for actual performance violations.
The issue with Copy cat is sort of part of my whole malaise with magic at the moment. I got reminded of what magic used to be and then looked at what it has become, and they basically made creatures too powerful, killed alternative angles of attack via armageddon, good counter magic, and just more effective sorceries and instants, and have been messing up the entire game with this yu-gi-oh style mythic rarity super powerful cards deal. The less I have to think about it the better, honestly.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Either the justification provided by WotC is as valid for Twin as it is for GGT or given justifications for anything removed from the format for a performance violation is equally unjustly imprisoned or your just very bias.
People still have to think about tapping out, see now your just being a bit melodramatic insulting blindly everyone that doesn't agree with you..
I am happy to agree with your unbanning divination thumbs up great job!
seriously, they talk about how it's hard for a card to get to Modern because of Standard, and they have been looking at a Standard that people would fall all over themselves for a card that stops a Vehicle or a planeswalker no questions asked, basically since the day Gideon was spoiled
To make the long story short: Wizards designers decided they had to play the job of the fun police and take out anything that made new players upset. At least that is the hypothesis that is floating around with some on this board.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
oh of course, that's how they roll. but I remember my time as a new player in Standard, i would much rather get countered every 5th game than alternate between getting hit by a car or a Gideon every single match
To be frank Wizards sort of needs an affordable non-rotating format that can attract new blood into it along with standard just to act as a buffer so they can handle mistakes they may make in standard. Modern sort of works for that, but because it's been around so long most of the staple cards are way too costly to get players who play standard to step into the format.They either go to other games or gravitate towards commander. It's mostly due to them treating modern like the enemy to anything good and only reprinting cards in luxury products like the masters series due to fear of hurting collectors feelings, even though none of the cards are on any kind of reserve list in modern. It's just idiotic.
However, if they are taking feedback seriously they should start doing more reprints of older cards in standard sets. They already have plenty of good answers in the modern card pool, it's just picking out the ones that are not set specific. Kolaghan's command is pretty set specific, but Path to Exile and Maelstrom Pulse certainly aren't. Neither are double bounce cards from pre-modern or the original counterspell.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!