As for the rest, for reference, various Uxx Control decks and Delver decks coexisted with Twin for quite a while, several of which spending considerable time above 4-5%. Having a great matchup against the "best deck" is the same reason why decks like D&T are doing well.
With Eldrazi Tron, I'd rather see a card in a future set that falls somewhere between Wasteland and Ghost Quarter in terms of power, maybe with a restriction to destroying lands without at least one basic land type. That would balance a threat with an answer and both would require some deck-building accommodations. Plus it encourages more interaction (on both sides), which I'm personally a fan of.
Ahh, now you are getting to the root of the problem, answer cards. Again this is on WIZARDS to print these. I'd be fine with your idea as long as it hits all colors and colorless not just colorless hate. This is a "pull us up" suggestion, not a "push them down" one. Keep them coming.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Significantly-blue means what I'm defining it to mean, which is that the decks run 18-20 mono-blue spells in the 75. That's blue. That's significant. I'm not even counting Tasigur, which needs blue to activate in GDS.
PS: Whoever blue mage wants Twin back and is not willing to give U/W Control a try, is a hypocrite! But, sorry, I forgot. U/W Control is garbage, because unlike Twin, it loses from RG Valakut, Dredge or Ad Nauseam! 3 whole bad matchups! It should win versus everything for you to accept it.
I don't care about bad match ups, I care about the feel.
Does UW control 'win' on the stack, end of turn? If so which version?
I've played every Ux and Uxx deck that I have seen looking for a replacement so please, let me know if such a miracle exists.
Every player that wants Twin back and is not satisfied from U/W Control's dynamic in this meta can not be taken seriously.
We seriously could not care less that you want your tempo bolt snap bolt deck to play. You can lower it down to playing another good metacall of a deck: U/W Control. But no! I forgot! It actually loses from 2 or 3 decks(Ad Naus, Dredge, RG Valakut). Gotta win them all.
I didn't know U/W Control could chip away early damage while threatening their opponent into making less-than-ideal plays and finish in a flurry of Bolts and Snaps. Seems more like the "I have to have the right answer at the right time or I lose, and I take 12+ turns to win" kind of deck.
So, you don't want a true control deck. You want a control deck that has a combo finish. Thus, you want to be winning with a unfair, linear way some times(for example vs decks like Tron or Dredge). There are many of those in Modern for those who want one. In other cases, there is Kiki-Jiki as a replacement.
I don't remember saying I want a control deck. I'd like a reactive deck, preferably tempo-based. Delver was fantastic fun until that got banned. Kiki Jiki is Tier 5 trash.
There were SIX Snap/Bolt Jeskai Control lists in the Top 32 at the SSG Roanoke Open ... all three variants - Queller, Saheeli, Nahiri - represented but still the same core. That's not even counting the UW decks, of which there were another three in the top 32. Seems like plenty of good options for blue-based control players at the top of the meta.
Options are not the same as feel. I have, and played, all 3.
Queller, very much a tempo deck.
Saheeli, I'm still not on this one. Its probably because it is in every way a worse twin, and a weird UWR 'value' deck, but its not what I (and others) want.
Nahiri, I've foiled a bunch of this out, I enjoy it quite a bit, but its still not what I'm after.
Honestly put yourself in our shoes. Temple is banned, 'oh well you can go play Tron'.
Actually the last sentence was a joke, and I know cfusion will understand this, because Grixis Exarch sucks. The rest though, remain true.
U/W Control is something all blue mages should try out before making any statement such as "blue sucks"
Again the blue sucks narrative is dead. Thats why I think (and again I dont want to claim i'm speaking for them but I really think we are mostly aligned) between fusion, myself, and hellfire, a bit of a full disclosure, 'come to jesus' is in order.
Its not about playing blue, or UR, its about the style of that play, the feel of that deck, and (irrationally) the injustice of Twin being banned and Eldrazi existing. SIMPLY EXISTING, at tier 1.
EDIT: To put it more clearly: Unless its Twin, or a near 100% stand in for Twin, nothing will be sufficient.
Maybe they will try a GGT-like trial unban and see how it goes ... I definitely wouldn't be opposed to that even though the deck would be a pretty bad matchup for ET.
EDIT: To put it more clearly: Unless its Twin, or a near 100% stand in for Twin, nothing will be sufficient.
Banning Temple doesn't unban Twin.
Redirect your anger where it is deserved.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Jesus, I feel like Grixis Shadow isn't far off from Delver. Replace the delver with Shadow and the bolts with push and it's almost the same deck
UW Control is interactive and as close to draw go as you can get. It won't stay a tier 1 deck but it's a good meta call right now.
I feel it's very unfair to say, "NO, I want a deck that plays everything at instant speed, chips you away, bolts snap bolts, and wins unfairly when I'm in trouble and need to jam the emergency win button". Come on, man, I don't think you guys are sounding rational.
Brad Nelson gave up on Jund and accepted Grixis is the new midrange deck; you gotta get over it.
Seriously, just play a Jeskai Geist deck if you're this unhappy, it literally plays everything at instant speed minus Geist. You tempo them out, drop Geist, clear the way while holding up burn and counters and win.
It was a fun deck that I played on the side a year and a half ago.
Meta's change, and being bitter that Eldrazi can exist while Twin can't is coming off as petty. DnT and UW Control are now known decks, so there's zero chance SFM see's an unban
The only viable unban is BBE, but it's extremely likely to be a no changes update in August barring some shocking results in the near future tournaments.
EDIT: To put it more clearly: Unless its Twin, or a near 100% stand in for Twin, nothing will be sufficient.
Banning Temple doesn't unban Twin.
Redirect your anger where it is deserved.
I already covered that, as long as Eldrazi players accept that their deck is well ahead of the curve I don't want it banned, I hate the deck by association with my own loss of a deck, and see it as a representative of what was wrong with Development, nothing more.
Spsiegal: yes it's petty. Yes it's irrational, and yes I want a style that is very specific, but when that style existed, and the justifications for keeping it from us have been weak since day one and weaker NOW...it's frustrating to say the least.
I want a competitive combo control UR deck, and the answer exists on the ban list for no arguable reason.
Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for an explanation on this bit from the supposedly well thought out article
"Without its removal, Jund is nothing. Etron holds this advantage, which coupled with its more stable mana allowed it to supplant the Bant version.
This trend was reinforced by the rise of Grixis Shadow. Bolt hits exactly Snapcaster Mage and Bolting a Shadow player is a dicey strategy. Inquistion is decent, but all the delve creatures hurt. This resistance is one explanation for Grixis topping Jund Shadow. The bottom line is that with two very good decks having a natural advantage over it, there was little chance for Jund to hold onto its traditional place in Tier 1. Abzan has done better but Etron is still a bad matchup. This is good for Shadow decks because Jund grinds well thanks to Terminate, Scavenging Ooze, and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, which gave it an edge on Shadow."
He was discussing 2 ways in which those decks have an "edge" over Jund Midrange. The first being head to head and the second being against the field. Eldrazi Tron has an edge over Jund Midrange in both categories and Grixis Death's Shadow has an edge over Jund Midrange in the second category.
There were SIX Snap/Bolt Jeskai Control lists in the Top 32 at the SSG Roanoke Open ... all three variants - Queller, Saheeli, Nahiri - represented but still the same core. That's not even counting the UW decks, of which there were another three in the top 32. Seems like plenty of good options for blue-based control players at the top of the meta.
Wait, U/x/x was 30% of the Top32 and you're not even counting Grixis Death's Shadow?
EDIT: To put it more clearly: Unless its Twin, or a near 100% stand in for Twin, nothing will be sufficient.
Banning Temple doesn't unban Twin.
Redirect your anger where it is deserved.
I already covered that, as long as Eldrazi players accept that their deck is well ahead of the curve I don't want it banned, I hate the deck by association with my own loss of a deck, and see it as a representative of what was wrong with Development, nothing more.
Spsiegal: yes it's petty. Yes it's irrational, and yes I want a style that is very specific, but when that style existed, and the justifications for keeping it from us have been weak since day one and weaker NOW...it's frustrating to say the least.
I want a competitive combo control UR deck, and the answer exists on the ban list for no arguable reason.
Yes it plays ahead of the curve, why do you think we play it? Every deck in Modern is looking for some advantage to exploit. It happens to be ours.
Again, I will reiterate.
Your anger is misplaced. Redirect your vitriol at WIZARDS. And yes, your anger comes across as petty and childish. Personally I'd like to help but I can't help if you won't accept the Olive Branch. You seem a bright, articulate and impassioned person, what can I do to help you get Twin back (again that doesn't nerf cards/decks)?
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Hey just throw a tweet at Aaron and Maro and Sam. "Twin shouldnt be banned anymore."
I get you, I'm not mad at eldrazi players, of course they use the deck if they like it. I'm frustrated that Aaron is full of it, lied, and was wrong about Twin.
Hey just throw a tweet at Aaron and Maro and Sam. "Twin shouldnt be banned anymore."
I get you, I'm not mad at eldrazi players, of course they use the deck if they like it. I'm frustrated that Aaron is full of it, lied, and was wrong about Twin.
Contacting them is something I can do. Whether or not they read it, that's in their court. I purchase a reasonable amount of cards from the secondary market. I can pass that plea along to those as well. I can also try to talk to fellow players on their positions. Hey I'm all for good solid competition. If Twin came back and wasn't oppressive, warped the Meta or led to a drastic decrease in players I would see that as a good thing. I'll be honest I don't think a lot will agree with it making a comeback but I'll try to do what I can. My advice is keep the pressure on Wizards and Wizards alone. Build bridges to other players and try to convince them an even more varied Meta will be good in the long run. Probably a long shot but if you love the deck, fight the right people for it.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Hey just throw a tweet at Aaron and Maro and Sam. "Twin shouldnt be banned anymore."
I get you, I'm not mad at eldrazi players, of course they use the deck if they like it. I'm frustrated that Aaron is full of it, lied, and was wrong about Twin.
It is a good thing that they were able to keep a deck competitive after a ban, isn't that the point of every ban?
I'd love to see twin unbanned. I don't want to play it, but anything that pushes skill intensive, interactive magic is good in my book.
It's sad that they banned it and it's sad that they were so disillusioned to think that kiki was a viable replacement but the fact that they banned an oppressive strategy but allowed it to live competitely is a good thing. It shows they may be learning from past mistakes.
I want SFM unbanned, but it's not happening, I'd be fine with twin being unbanned, but probably isn't happening either. They have messed up before but I don't include them not banning temple as one of those mistakes. I even agree that etron is the most warping deck in the meta but the answer is new prints (because we aren't getting unbans for a long time, it's time for us to accept that), not more bans.
They claim to now realize the error of their ways and while it sucks to say we need to give them two years to judge how they handled that mistake that is the nature of the situation we are in. If that time passes and the format is worse off then we need to collectively destroy them for it.
It is a good thing that they were able to keep a deck competitive after a ban, isn't that the point of every ban?
I'd love to see twin unbanned. I don't want to play it, but anything that pushes skill intensive, interactive magic is good in my book.
It's sad that they banned it and it's sad that they were so disillusioned to think that kiki was a viable replacement but the fact that they banned an oppressive strategy but allowed it to live competitely is a good thing. It shows they may be learning from past mistakes.
I want SFM unbanned, but it's not happening, I'd be fine with twin being unbanned, but probably isn't happening either. They have messed up before but I don't include them not banning temple as one of those mistakes. I even agree that etron is the most warping deck in the meta but the answer is new prints (because we aren't getting unbans for a long time, it's time for us to accept that), not more bans.
They claim to now realize the error of their ways and while it sucks to say we need to give them two years to judge how they handled that mistake that is the nature of the situation we are in. If that time passes and the format is worse off then we need to collectively destroy them for it.
Wait, when did they "claim to now realize the error of their ways" in Modern? I know they copped to the fact that not having answer cards in Standard was a big reason Standard has been so bad (and it was--except for maybe Felidar Guardian, not a single one of those cards would have merited banning had there been decent answers), but I don't remember offhand them saying anything like that for Modern.
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As for the rest, for reference, various Uxx Control decks and Delver decks coexisted with Twin for quite a while, several of which spending considerable time above 4-5%. Having a great matchup against the "best deck" is the same reason why decks like D&T are doing well.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Ahh, now you are getting to the root of the problem, answer cards. Again this is on WIZARDS to print these. I'd be fine with your idea as long as it hits all colors and colorless not just colorless hate. This is a "pull us up" suggestion, not a "push them down" one. Keep them coming.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
This statement makes no sense when Shadow would TEAR TWIN TO PIECES.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I don't care about bad match ups, I care about the feel.
Does UW control 'win' on the stack, end of turn? If so which version?
I've played every Ux and Uxx deck that I have seen looking for a replacement so please, let me know if such a miracle exists.
Spirits
I didn't know U/W Control could chip away early damage while threatening their opponent into making less-than-ideal plays and finish in a flurry of Bolts and Snaps. Seems more like the "I have to have the right answer at the right time or I lose, and I take 12+ turns to win" kind of deck.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits
Spirits
I don't remember saying I want a control deck. I'd like a reactive deck, preferably tempo-based. Delver was fantastic fun until that got banned. Kiki Jiki is Tier 5 trash.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Queller, very much a tempo deck.
Saheeli, I'm still not on this one. Its probably because it is in every way a worse twin, and a weird UWR 'value' deck, but its not what I (and others) want.
Nahiri, I've foiled a bunch of this out, I enjoy it quite a bit, but its still not what I'm after.
Honestly put yourself in our shoes. Temple is banned, 'oh well you can go play Tron'.
Thats what you are saying here.
Spirits
Basically this.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Again the blue sucks narrative is dead. Thats why I think (and again I dont want to claim i'm speaking for them but I really think we are mostly aligned) between fusion, myself, and hellfire, a bit of a full disclosure, 'come to jesus' is in order.
Its not about playing blue, or UR, its about the style of that play, the feel of that deck, and (irrationally) the injustice of Twin being banned and Eldrazi existing. SIMPLY EXISTING, at tier 1.
EDIT: To put it more clearly: Unless its Twin, or a near 100% stand in for Twin, nothing will be sufficient.
Spirits
Maybe they will try a GGT-like trial unban and see how it goes ... I definitely wouldn't be opposed to that even though the deck would be a pretty bad matchup for ET.
Banning Temple doesn't unban Twin.
Redirect your anger where it is deserved.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
UW Control is interactive and as close to draw go as you can get. It won't stay a tier 1 deck but it's a good meta call right now.
I feel it's very unfair to say, "NO, I want a deck that plays everything at instant speed, chips you away, bolts snap bolts, and wins unfairly when I'm in trouble and need to jam the emergency win button". Come on, man, I don't think you guys are sounding rational.
Brad Nelson gave up on Jund and accepted Grixis is the new midrange deck; you gotta get over it.
Seriously, just play a Jeskai Geist deck if you're this unhappy, it literally plays everything at instant speed minus Geist. You tempo them out, drop Geist, clear the way while holding up burn and counters and win.
It was a fun deck that I played on the side a year and a half ago.
Meta's change, and being bitter that Eldrazi can exist while Twin can't is coming off as petty. DnT and UW Control are now known decks, so there's zero chance SFM see's an unban
The only viable unban is BBE, but it's extremely likely to be a no changes update in August barring some shocking results in the near future tournaments.
I already covered that, as long as Eldrazi players accept that their deck is well ahead of the curve I don't want it banned, I hate the deck by association with my own loss of a deck, and see it as a representative of what was wrong with Development, nothing more.
Spsiegal: yes it's petty. Yes it's irrational, and yes I want a style that is very specific, but when that style existed, and the justifications for keeping it from us have been weak since day one and weaker NOW...it's frustrating to say the least.
I want a competitive combo control UR deck, and the answer exists on the ban list for no arguable reason.
Spirits
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Time to ban Island.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Yes it plays ahead of the curve, why do you think we play it? Every deck in Modern is looking for some advantage to exploit. It happens to be ours.
Again, I will reiterate.
Your anger is misplaced. Redirect your vitriol at WIZARDS. And yes, your anger comes across as petty and childish. Personally I'd like to help but I can't help if you won't accept the Olive Branch. You seem a bright, articulate and impassioned person, what can I do to help you get Twin back (again that doesn't nerf cards/decks)?
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I get you, I'm not mad at eldrazi players, of course they use the deck if they like it. I'm frustrated that Aaron is full of it, lied, and was wrong about Twin.
Spirits
Contacting them is something I can do. Whether or not they read it, that's in their court. I purchase a reasonable amount of cards from the secondary market. I can pass that plea along to those as well. I can also try to talk to fellow players on their positions. Hey I'm all for good solid competition. If Twin came back and wasn't oppressive, warped the Meta or led to a drastic decrease in players I would see that as a good thing. I'll be honest I don't think a lot will agree with it making a comeback but I'll try to do what I can. My advice is keep the pressure on Wizards and Wizards alone. Build bridges to other players and try to convince them an even more varied Meta will be good in the long run. Probably a long shot but if you love the deck, fight the right people for it.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I'd love to see twin unbanned. I don't want to play it, but anything that pushes skill intensive, interactive magic is good in my book.
It's sad that they banned it and it's sad that they were so disillusioned to think that kiki was a viable replacement but the fact that they banned an oppressive strategy but allowed it to live competitely is a good thing. It shows they may be learning from past mistakes.
I want SFM unbanned, but it's not happening, I'd be fine with twin being unbanned, but probably isn't happening either. They have messed up before but I don't include them not banning temple as one of those mistakes. I even agree that etron is the most warping deck in the meta but the answer is new prints (because we aren't getting unbans for a long time, it's time for us to accept that), not more bans.
They claim to now realize the error of their ways and while it sucks to say we need to give them two years to judge how they handled that mistake that is the nature of the situation we are in. If that time passes and the format is worse off then we need to collectively destroy them for it.