I was looking over the ban list earlier today to find cards that might not have a big impact in the meta right now. I found one that might not greatly affect the meta, but all the old arguments can still apply to it. Punishing fire doesn't get much discussion on here. I know it can invalidate small creature aggro like elves and merfolk as well as be a very slow win con on its own, but I'm not sure it would have a big impact in this meta. When the meta is full of grixis shadow, eldrazi, dredge, and faster liniar decks I'm just not sure how big an impact it would have. It would see play and would even be good in some match ups like hate bears, affinity maybe and others, but I don't think it would greatly shift the meta especially the top tier.
That leads to a question of: is this a sign that it could be unbanned since it may not affect the top tier decks? Or is this a sign that the kinds of decks punishing fire is good against need more help? (It didn't use to be that way, they banned that card and wild nacatl because zoo was so oppressive vs any other aggro deck and the field as a whole.) If sfm were unbanned does that change either of the other answeres?
I know this card is not discussed much and is probably considered settled, but the meta has shifted and I thought I would bring this card up.
When I hear: "While deck diversity is good, we're keeping an eye on color balance. If there's an easy change to the banned list that could open up more decks in the future, we will examine it when other formats have less pressing needs."
My brain interprets that to mean SFM unban to improve white's representation in the meta.
SFM isn't looking too likely right now, WOTC would reason the rise of DnT, which is a dumb opinion they probably hold.
When I hear: "While deck diversity is good, we're keeping an eye on color balance. If there's an easy change to the banned list that could open up more decks in the future, we will examine it when other formats have less pressing needs."
My brain interprets that to mean SFM unban to improve white's representation in the meta.
SFM isn't looking too likely right now, WOTC would reason the rise of DnT, which is a dumb opinion they probably hold.
Considering the last few statements were literally "dealing will Standard, we'll get back to you", it's pretty obvious we're a low priority. At least we haven't seen more bans? Either way, their rationale can be as thin as thin can be and we just have to sit back and take it, whether it makes sense or not.
The worst byproduct of the increased frequency in ban/restricted announcements is that instead of people clamoring for SFM's un-ban just 2-3 times per year, it now feels like the topic is brought up every other week. If I had a nickel for every time someone beat that dead horse leading up to B&R announcements, I'd have enough to buy a SFM play set.
Maybe you should buy it now before it gets unbanned and the price spikes.
Not so fast, slick; you know what they say. Fool me into buying SFM/JtMS once prior to a B&R announcement, shame on you. Fool me into buying SFM/JtMS prior to each B&R announcement over the next four years, shame on me for not buying SCG/TCGplayer stock options instead.
The worst byproduct of the increased frequency in ban/restricted announcements is that instead of people clamoring for SFM's un-ban just 2-3 times per year, it now feels like the topic is brought up every other week. If I had a nickel for every time someone beat that dead horse leading up to B&R announcements, I'd have enough to buy a SFM play set.
Maybe you should buy it now before it gets unbanned and the price spikes.
Not so fast, slick; you know what they say. Fool me into buying SFM/JtMS once prior to a B&R announcement, shame on you. Fool me into buying SFM/JtMS prior to each B&R announcement over the next four years, shame on me for not buying SCG/TCGplayer stock options instead.
Judging by the steepness of the falloff last spike (Jan 2016) and the complete lack of spike this year, I'd say we've finally caught on! I mean, don't get me wrong, I have two playsets myself (one regular one GP foil, just in case), but at least those were had for ~$10 and can go into Commander decks...
I haven't been able to play or pay attention to the format in about two weeks, but I noticed over the past few pages a lot of hate for SFM. A month or so ago it seemed the general consensus was it was fine but that it wasn't coming off, probably ever, for lots of reasons that boiled down to basically WotC whack reasoning.
I tried looking at some recent tournament results but other than the double hate bears top 8 from the Vegas GP about a month ago, I haven't seen anything to make me think white is doing much better aside from a few UW/Jeskai control lists popping up every now and then. I did miss something? Or just a different voice being heard the past few days?
I agree, Hoagland has made some absurd demands for bans. He really has toxic views about modern, and Reddit literally ran him out because of it. At the end of it all, he's a brewer, not a pro. He hasn't accidentally stumbled into top SCG standing or anything, but he has said some--strange things.
LSV's vid had backlash, I really don't think Claim//Fame will do much, if anything. It's a dead card in so many scenarios, I imagine players will test it out as a 2 of, claim it's amazing, then do more testing, cut it down to 1, and then just it out completely.
If Wraith gets banned, Shadow is definitely a tier 2.5 deck, it's worse in any midrange fight, and it significantly worsens against combo and linear decks. If the deck can't police linear strategies, I see no place for this deck, you may as well play Jund or Grixis Control instead.
No need for apologies. I'm just saying that the similarities are there, and the banning criteria fits(not that it matters too much for WOTC).
The only thing that makes me think that DS wouldn't be nerfed is that 2017 was a complete fiasco from the competitive standpoint. Modern was their best format by a mile(and it's still regardless i've heard many people say that Standard is actually fixed now and a blast), and more bannings in their flagship formats would be too loose from a marketing POV. It's clear most people are having a good time with Modern, included myself. I just make arguements and back up my reasonings with a comprehensive view of their past actions in the Modern format.
They can easily leave Shadow be until 2018 when the waters are settled down a bit more and then see if the formats health is a good place.
Their hatred for blue cantrips still seems to be very much a thing, I wouldn't expect a Preordain unban anytime soon.
Out of all blue cards Jace, the Mind Sculptor is probably the most likely card to get unbanned, but that probably doesn't mean much.
Wow, that's insane banning those cards out all legal cards. They must really hate blue. Might also explain why we have not seen a force spike, counterspell reprint in ages.
That's just insane. Like you said demonic and tutor vampiric tutor are legal, and all the other tutors are legal...
Looks like they banned Treachery as well. 4 blue cards.... While it's not modern it does not speak well of those making the decisions for modern.
I absolutely never want Jace unbanned until modern gains the necessary safety valves for it
As far as I can see, there's a lot of safety valves; the fact the guy costs 4 mana makes him rather slow, a lot of decks just don't care about him, and everyone has a 1-mana answer to him in the form of Pithing Needle. What exactly are the safety valves that are missing? The only "safety valve" against Jace I can see that Legacy has that Modern doesn't is that it's a faster format to make the 4-mana Jace even worse, so I'm not sure how exactly that can be accomplished without dispensing with the sacrosanct "turn 4 rule."
Jace would either push out every GBx deck and make blue the only interactive deck in modern worth playing, or it'd power up Sultai too much, and make it the only midrange deck worth playing while stomping on control decks to boot.
I remember many people making the same claim about Ancestral Vision.
What answer does any GBx deck have to that card if it drops on an empty board? Like, lets be realistic, it's either discard or bust
I'm not really worried about it out grinding me, because Sultai would predictably be the best deck and I'd just convert to that, since Jund would be unlikely allowed to exist from Jace in the format
Can't say for sure about Abzan due to lingering souls
Regardless, it'd be Sultai>Every other blue deck and GBx deck. I'd have to buy some foiled out misties but it'd be a quick transition
4x Jaces to 1x Pulse? Probably 2x Pulses if Jace were playable.
I'm certain 1 Jace deck would canobolize both midrange and control. Honestly, I think Sultai is just one 2 cmc removal away from being the best color combination in modern, there just needs to be a catch all to play with Goyfs and Snappies.
4x Jaces to 1x Pulse? Probably 2x Pulses if Jace were playable.
I'm certain 1 Jace deck would canobolize both midrange and control. Honestly, I think Sultai is just one 2 cmc removal away from being the best color combination in modern, there just needs to be a catch all to play with Goyfs and Snappies.
What meaningful midrange or control decks are there left to cannibalize anyway?
And on paper, Sultai *should* already be the best with the printing of Fatal Push. They have access to Push, Decay, Pulse, Lili, Goyf, Snap, discard, and counters. I think what's holding GBx back more than anything is actually Fatal Push itself. It inadvertently makes Tarmogoyf much, much worse than it used to be, and is the main reason why large, but cheap, Eldrazi and delve-cheated fatties are so much more popular. Being a high-toughness 2 drop used to be a commodity, but is now a liability with Push being one of the most played removal spells in the format. It's just better to cheat out things that dodge Push.
Push very much damaged Tarmogoyf, being resistant to bolt was one of Goyfs biggest strengths, I think it's been a goal to lower Goyfs power level for a while, I think WOTC didn't forsee all these creatures being cheated out so quickly resistant to removal though .
I don't think anything is left to cannibalize, it's mainly Shadow with a hint of Abzan decks for tier 1 and tier 2 fair decks
Sultai doesn't have a good all removal for fatties, Murderous cut doesn't---cut it. If some kind of terminate came out in sultai colors I think it'd thrive.
Sultai doesn't have a good all removal for fatties, Murderous cut doesn't---cut it. If some kind of terminate came out in sultai colors I think it'd thrive.
I guess that's another symptom of Push... Abrupt Decay is also much worse when your opponents are playing Eldrazi and Delve threats... they're all still essentially 1-3 drops, but being cheated in with sol lands and Delve.
Decay lost stock after the Twin ban, now it's barely a 1 of in Jund decks. Decay was like, one of the pinnacle removals of modern for years. Bolt is bad. The meta is crazy.
Eldrazi and Dive threats have really warped the meta, that wouldn't be such a big deal if not for cheating them out with the GY and Temple.
There are no cards to answer a Jace now? Or is BGx just so damn spoiled by Abrupt Decay that anything at 4cmc that isn't in Jund or Azban, is 'unanswerable'.
It's offensive honestly, as a blue player, to have to hear over and over and over 'no this too good!'
What's bull is 'No we cant have Preordain because X, we cant have Ponder because X, we cant have SFM because X, we cant have Twin because X, and we cant have Jace because X'.
Its garbage. :]
I dont care if its the best PW printed, who's second? Lily? Which of her 2 3cmc versions?
We can (and I dont mean you and I, the royal 'we') argue if GDS is blue or not all day, but if/when DS eats a bullet, you think Grixis is sticking around at the top tier?
No, it would become Grixis Delver again, down in Deck Creation.
EDIT: And I dont mean to offend here, and I hope I'm not coming across as attacking you personally, but its tiresome that only Black and Green are allowed to be strong. White has little to nothing as it is, Red has Burn, and Blue has enablers for Black...
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That leads to a question of: is this a sign that it could be unbanned since it may not affect the top tier decks? Or is this a sign that the kinds of decks punishing fire is good against need more help? (It didn't use to be that way, they banned that card and wild nacatl because zoo was so oppressive vs any other aggro deck and the field as a whole.) If sfm were unbanned does that change either of the other answeres?
I know this card is not discussed much and is probably considered settled, but the meta has shifted and I thought I would bring this card up.
SFM isn't looking too likely right now, WOTC would reason the rise of DnT, which is a dumb opinion they probably hold.
Considering the last few statements were literally "dealing will Standard, we'll get back to you", it's pretty obvious we're a low priority. At least we haven't seen more bans? Either way, their rationale can be as thin as thin can be and we just have to sit back and take it, whether it makes sense or not.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Not so fast, slick; you know what they say. Fool me into buying SFM/JtMS once prior to a B&R announcement, shame on you. Fool me into buying SFM/JtMS prior to each B&R announcement over the next four years, shame on me for not buying SCG/TCGplayer stock options instead.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Judging by the steepness of the falloff last spike (Jan 2016) and the complete lack of spike this year, I'd say we've finally caught on! I mean, don't get me wrong, I have two playsets myself (one regular one GP foil, just in case), but at least those were had for ~$10 and can go into Commander decks...
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I tried looking at some recent tournament results but other than the double hate bears top 8 from the Vegas GP about a month ago, I haven't seen anything to make me think white is doing much better aside from a few UW/Jeskai control lists popping up every now and then. I did miss something? Or just a different voice being heard the past few days?
LSV's vid had backlash, I really don't think Claim//Fame will do much, if anything. It's a dead card in so many scenarios, I imagine players will test it out as a 2 of, claim it's amazing, then do more testing, cut it down to 1, and then just it out completely.
If Wraith gets banned, Shadow is definitely a tier 2.5 deck, it's worse in any midrange fight, and it significantly worsens against combo and linear decks. If the deck can't police linear strategies, I see no place for this deck, you may as well play Jund or Grixis Control instead.
The only thing that makes me think that DS wouldn't be nerfed is that 2017 was a complete fiasco from the competitive standpoint. Modern was their best format by a mile(and it's still regardless i've heard many people say that Standard is actually fixed now and a blast), and more bannings in their flagship formats would be too loose from a marketing POV. It's clear most people are having a good time with Modern, included myself. I just make arguements and back up my reasonings with a comprehensive view of their past actions in the Modern format.
They can easily leave Shadow be until 2018 when the waters are settled down a bit more and then see if the formats health is a good place.
Wow, that's insane banning those cards out all legal cards. They must really hate blue. Might also explain why we have not seen a force spike, counterspell reprint in ages.
That's just insane. Like you said demonic and tutor vampiric tutor are legal, and all the other tutors are legal...
Looks like they banned Treachery as well. 4 blue cards.... While it's not modern it does not speak well of those making the decisions for modern.
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I remember many people making the same claim about Ancestral Vision.
Jace would be fine. "OMG A BLUE CARD YOU MUST ANSWER"
yeah, what a shame that would be.
Spirits
Grixis Control was destroying Jund decks until they realized they had to play against the rest of the meta, too
I also don't think we can compare AV's power level to the strongest planeswalker ever printed
No, I advocated for the unban of AV for a while before the unban reveal.
I did, however, freak out for a week or two when every Grixis deck was jamming AV and Dark Dwellers and shredding Jund
Turned out that form of Grixis Control deck wasn't viable when the meta was so creature aggro heavy, along with the combo decks
Its a 4 mana card, that does not win on the spot, and does not have flash.
Spirits
I'm not really worried about it out grinding me, because Sultai would predictably be the best deck and I'd just convert to that, since Jund would be unlikely allowed to exist from Jace in the format
Can't say for sure about Abzan due to lingering souls
Regardless, it'd be Sultai>Every other blue deck and GBx deck. I'd have to buy some foiled out misties but it'd be a quick transition
Surely once he's unleashed people will start including Maelstrom Pulse?
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
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I'm certain 1 Jace deck would canobolize both midrange and control. Honestly, I think Sultai is just one 2 cmc removal away from being the best color combination in modern, there just needs to be a catch all to play with Goyfs and Snappies.
What meaningful midrange or control decks are there left to cannibalize anyway?
And on paper, Sultai *should* already be the best with the printing of Fatal Push. They have access to Push, Decay, Pulse, Lili, Goyf, Snap, discard, and counters. I think what's holding GBx back more than anything is actually Fatal Push itself. It inadvertently makes Tarmogoyf much, much worse than it used to be, and is the main reason why large, but cheap, Eldrazi and delve-cheated fatties are so much more popular. Being a high-toughness 2 drop used to be a commodity, but is now a liability with Push being one of the most played removal spells in the format. It's just better to cheat out things that dodge Push.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I don't think anything is left to cannibalize, it's mainly Shadow with a hint of Abzan decks for tier 1 and tier 2 fair decks
Sultai doesn't have a good all removal for fatties, Murderous cut doesn't---cut it. If some kind of terminate came out in sultai colors I think it'd thrive.
I guess that's another symptom of Push... Abrupt Decay is also much worse when your opponents are playing Eldrazi and Delve threats... they're all still essentially 1-3 drops, but being cheated in with sol lands and Delve.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Eldrazi and Dive threats have really warped the meta, that wouldn't be such a big deal if not for cheating them out with the GY and Temple.
It's offensive honestly, as a blue player, to have to hear over and over and over 'no this too good!'
Bull.
Spirits
Blue has Death Shadow now, there's no bull, you guys are the king of the mountain and GBx is second fiddle, it happens.
I'm fine GBx being a tier 2/3 status right now, but I'm in no way ok with Jace
Its garbage. :]
I dont care if its the best PW printed, who's second? Lily? Which of her 2 3cmc versions?
We can (and I dont mean you and I, the royal 'we') argue if GDS is blue or not all day, but if/when DS eats a bullet, you think Grixis is sticking around at the top tier?
No, it would become Grixis Delver again, down in Deck Creation.
EDIT: And I dont mean to offend here, and I hope I'm not coming across as attacking you personally, but its tiresome that only Black and Green are allowed to be strong. White has little to nothing as it is, Red has Burn, and Blue has enablers for Black...
Spirits