Modern needs a "free" counter-spell like Force of Will. But with the downside that it cannot be used during your own turn, to prevent combo decks from using it to protect them on the turn they go off
Not everyone can afford legacy, but us modern players should still be able to have access to some of the same types of cards that makes legacy so great
Hey guys. I'm not a modern player but I follow entusiastically the format. I'd like to ask what do you think about unbanning cards that belong to non-played (or lightly played deck) in order to make a shake-up of the format.
I'm referring to powerful cards such as Stoneforge, Bloodbraid elf, Deathrite and punishing fire (maybe even Jitte). These are fair cards for midrange/tempo strategies, which aren't oppressive actually. Would they destroy the format?
JW, with Jeskai doing very well in the standings in events this weekend (especially at the Open but to a lesser extent at the Classic), where are the All Control Decks Matter people?
It's interesting to look at all the different decklists. One had kiki combo, another had 4 snap + 2 torrential gearhulk. Another had 4 geist of saint trafts while another similar list choose spell queller instead.
I think this supports the same position I've had for a long time (meta's hostility to control still waxes and wanes, of course): Control decks in modern are difficult to build and master, but a variety of builds have a skill ceiling that are high enough to permit skilled pilots to take them to the top of a large event. I don't find that underlying concept problematic since decks (obviously) have different skill ceilings and skill floors.
There is a large pool of cards that work for UW/Esper/Jeskai control decks, which gain and lose value with the shifting meta. No coincidence that Kiki showed up at place 9 in an event where Fatal Push was being chosen over Lightning Bolt in many decks.
Hey guys. I'm not a modern player but I follow entusiastically the format. I'd like to ask what do you think about unbanning cards that belong to non-played (or lightly played deck) in order to make a shake-up of the format.
I'm referring to powerful cards such as Stoneforge, Bloodbraid elf, Deathrite and punishing fire (maybe even Jitte). These are fair cards for midrange/tempo strategies, which aren't oppressive actually. Would they destroy the format?
Pretty sure the only content you'll find here outside of opinions on those exact topics is metagame analysis. If you want to see what people think about that, why not read back a few pages rather than ask people to produce more pages on those topics?
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Hey guys. I'm not a modern player but I follow entusiastically the format. I'd like to ask what do you think about unbanning cards that belong to non-played (or lightly played deck) in order to make a shake-up of the format.
I'm referring to powerful cards such as Stoneforge, Bloodbraid elf, Deathrite and punishing fire (maybe even Jitte). These are fair cards for midrange/tempo strategies, which aren't oppressive actually. Would they destroy the format?
Stoneforge and JTMS were banned when the format was first created because people hated playing against UW stoneblade in standard.
Punishing fire makes Jund a tier 0.5 deck. So did DRS, but they didn't want to ban a standard card, so they banned BBE, and then had to ban DRS.
As you can see by the poll, a lot of modern players believe SFM, JTMS, and/or BBE could be unbanned. There's no way they're unbanning Jitte.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Hey guys. I'm not a modern player but I follow entusiastically the format. I'd like to ask what do you think about unbanning cards that belong to non-played (or lightly played deck) in order to make a shake-up of the format.
I'm referring to powerful cards such as Stoneforge, Bloodbraid elf, Deathrite and punishing fire (maybe even Jitte). These are fair cards for midrange/tempo strategies, which aren't oppressive actually. Would they destroy the format?
Stoneforge and JTMS were banned when the format was first created because people hated playing against UW stoneblade in standard.
Punishing fire makes Jund a tier 0.5 deck. So did DRS, but they didn't want to ban a standard card, so they banned BBE, and then had to ban DRS.
As you can see by the poll, a lot of modern players believe SFM, JTMS, and/or BBE could be unbanned. There's no way they're unbanning Jitte.
To delve further, not only did Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor cause problems in Standard, they had to be banned eventually. They were essentially banned with one month left in the Standard rotation because attendance was hurting so much because they initially tried to "wait it out." Then, there is also the fact that the 2 cards are Legacy staples. Decks like X Blade or Death and Taxes can't exist without Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor gives another win-con to some Legacy decks. I feel it was a similar basis to why Ancestral Vision was banned for so long - simply because it was played in Shardless BUG because of a card that doesn't exist in Modern.
But yes, there are a lot of players who believe that those cards are all right. I actually am leaning more toward probably seeing an unban of Stoneforge Mystic coming up and slightly less likely, no changes.
Agreed with Jitte. Wizards wants formats to be creature based. Why would they introduce a card that single handedly wins those types of battles?
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Hey guys. I'm not a modern player but I follow entusiastically the format. I'd like to ask what do you think about unbanning cards that belong to non-played (or lightly played deck) in order to make a shake-up of the format.
I'm referring to powerful cards such as Stoneforge, Bloodbraid elf, Deathrite and punishing fire (maybe even Jitte). These are fair cards for midrange/tempo strategies, which aren't oppressive actually. Would they destroy the format?
SFM and BBE are probably fine. Deathrite is too powerful for Modern, it's arguably too powerful even for Legacy. Punishing Fire is too oppressive against creature decks. Jitte is too good, especially if you unban SFM.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Agreed with Jitte. Wizards wants formats to be creature based. Why would they introduce a card that single handedly wins those types of battles?
Jitte does require to be creature based, so it would be great in creature based mirror but no so great in non-interactive games. Of course SFM and Jitte cannot be unbanned together!
I remember when Jitte was legal in extended (which was extremley more creature based than actual modern) and it wasn't so oppressive.
I'm not trying to speculate on absurd unbanning, just trying to understand how things would work out in such a scenario
As a control player, as much as i'd like to see jtms or preordain get unbanned (they are fine imo), this isn't really what i want. Just get counterspell into modern. Every control deck i build has this glaring deficiency in the early counterspell suite. Cryptic is good, but i am so tired of the rest of my counterspell list looking like 1 logic knot, 2 mana leak, 1 spell snare, 1 negate, ect. While i get some people like playing with this diverse list of counters, it drives me buggy. I don't care how they do it, just print it in the next modern masters if it's too good for standard (it's not). Counterspell should be in modern.
Agreed with Jitte. Wizards wants formats to be creature based. Why would they introduce a card that single handedly wins those types of battles?
Jitte does require to be creature based, so it would be great in creature based mirror but no so great in non-interactive games. Of course SFM and Jitte cannot be unbanned together!
I remember when Jitte was legal in extended (which was extremley more creature based than actual modern) and it wasn't so oppressive.
I'm not trying to speculate on absurd unbanning, just trying to understand how things would work out in such a scenario
Jitte was legal in extended with different legendary rules though too. Previously if the opponent put a jitte into play you could put your own into play and they both go away which was rough, but not the worst. Now the first player gets to machine gun down anything the opponent plays so they get the powerful equipment, but the opp can't do anything.
talking about the new article, "metamorphosis 2.0" do you think that the comeback of this kind of "coreset" could bring back the modern pro tour? it seems like a pro tour with a core set as a focus could be boring, even more taking into account that, as maro said, this set would be more oriented to new players
didnt honest think of that. Maybe a split pt or if it was a modern one maybe they do a team unified type thing with standard and legacy too that seems rather popular as well as the fact that they are pushing teams now.
JW, with Jeskai doing very well in the standings in events this weekend (especially at the Open but to a lesser extent at the Classic), where are the All Control Decks Matter people?
A few pages back, I wrote out the ten criteria the "blue sucks" camp needs to see in a deck before it is declared viable. As you might imagine, those criteria are unmet after even these results. Some of the decks run Geist, i.e. "too midrangey." Others run Kiki combo, i.e. "too proactive." And naturally there's the "just one event" rebuttal; it's an extremely narrow definition of success. Although I empathize with the desire for more data points, I also think these decks are much better than man acknowledge.
JW, with Jeskai doing very well in the standings in events this weekend (especially at the Open but to a lesser extent at the Classic), where are the All Control Decks Matter people?
A few pages back, I wrote out the ten criteria the "blue sucks" camp needs to see in a deck before it is declared viable. As you might imagine, those criteria are unmet after even these results. Some of the decks run Geist, i.e. "too midrangey." Others run Kiki combo, i.e. "too proactive." And naturally there's the "just one event" rebuttal; it's an extremely narrow definition of success. Although I empathize with the desire for more data points, I also think these decks are much better than man acknowledge.
I read those and agree with you that the camp is that insatiable. That was just me rubbing salt into the wound (and, in the interest of contributing constructively to this thread, giving additional voice to the sentiment of their-views-are-unreasonable).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Did some maths, as I was curious about how egregious a 20% day2 to 50% top8 conversion rate was.
In a day 2 with 66 total players and 13 on Grixis DS, the probability of exactly 4 Grixis DS in top8 is 3.65%, while the probability of 4 or more Grixis DS in top 8 is 4.21%.
Hm. Interesting. What were the conversion rates for Eldrazi Tron and Living End?
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
Call me crazy guys but what if thoughtseize was banned?
How much would this hurt the death shadow decks? Quite a bit id imagine
There are few bans which would hurt Modern more. Think things are linear and non-interactive now? A TS ban would make it significantly worse. Thankfully, I can't conceive of a world where Wizards would actually do that, so it's not worth entertaining much.
talking about the new article, "metamorphosis 2.0" do you think that the comeback of this kind of "coreset" could bring back the modern pro tour? it seems like a pro tour with a core set as a focus could be boring, even more taking into account that, as maro said, this set would be more oriented to new players
didnt honest think of that. Maybe a split pt or if it was a modern one maybe they do a team unified type thing with standard and legacy too that seems rather popular as well as the fact that they are pushing teams now.
maybe. but this change should revitalize the audience, and giving modern A LITTLE more space for hardcore players
So is traditional Jund making a bit of a comeback? Heard Reid Duke has been playing it too.
I don't know but I sure hope so! I spent the first few turns wondering why his life total was so high and where the damned death's shadows were. I saw a Dark Confidant for christ's sake!
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Modern: -UBG Lantern Control-GW or RG or R Tron - G Stompy - C KCI Combo-
EDH: -UG Ezuri-UGZegana-BRMogis-WUBRGRamos-WBREdgar-URLocust God-WUBRBreya-BMacar-WUBrago-WEvra-
I don't want a ban but I think something needs to be done about the fact the meta is so gy heavy. Ggt needed a ban because decks needed too much gy hate and here we are in almost an even worse spot.
That's on the players to fix. Modern has the best graveyard hate in the game. Two Surgical Extraction, one Nihil Spellbomb, and a Grafdigger's Cage isn't enough. The hate is too spread out and not focussed. When I see just 2 Leyline of the Void in a sideboard instead of 4, that drives me nuts. Take this 24th placing deck from SCG this weekend:
That is some weak sauce when it comes to graveyard hate. Until players start running enough serious graveyard hate to give a tournament a "herd immunity" to graveyard shenanigans, players will continue to abuse it. I'm glad to see the Tron decks starting to maindeck Relic of Progenitus. That's a good start.
the deck you singled out is of course also a GY deck and running RIP just makes the deck so much worst(board out your snapcasters and your logic knots for what?). Other than Eldrazi Tron pretty much every deck that is doing well leans heavily on its GY and running the best options is a lot like a creature based aggro deck planning on jamming like 6 Wrath affects as a answer to opposing creature decks.
I mean your saying that 4 slots in the SB to aide against 1 specific aspect of the opposing decks isn't enough then we are in a worst place than before the GGT ban as demanding play sets worth of hate is what got it rebanned anyways.
The reality is that nearly all of the T1 decks are GY dependent decks, Grixis Shadow is garbage if you resolve a RIP or open with a Leyline of the Void. But most decks can't play RIP or Relic because it hinders their own game plan to much.
Even if they have to resort to Tormod's Crypt so they don't nuke their own graveyards, these decks need to run more GY hate. Otherwise, there is no real downside to relying so much on dredge, delve, or Snapcaster Mage. In fact, Tormod's Crypt might not be all that bad since I saw so many people tap out with an active Relic of Progenitus on the board this weekend. Every time, the Grixis/Dredge/Storm/Living End player took advantage of that.
One time affects can get the job done but against decks like dredge or Grixis Shadow which can refill the yard very quickly it isn't as good.
Its easy to be hyper critical about things like, not making use of all of your mana in order to keep up 1 for relic when we have the benefit of complete knowledge of the possible plays both players can make, a great way to lose against DS decks and dredge is to sit around losing out on developing your own board and losing mana to attempt to be hyper reactive. Against DS decks if you don't cast your cards when provided the opportunity you might not be casting it at all, and dredge can play through multiple relics its not a instant win like RIP or LVoid. I think that running 4 in your board is pretty heavy even if you have to run sub par hate to not screw yourself. The real issue is that pretty much every deck utilizes the GY as a resource and can't run the best hate and understand that the opponent likely cannot either its just old school MAD. This ignores that while Dredge is completely hosed by great GY hate Grixis Shadow isn't it does slow down your plays but it is probably equally as likely that you mulligan for your GY hate and the opponent just has a hand that powers out DS early and you probably lost by mulling for hate that doesn't do anything for you. If it was as cut and dry easy as your making it out to be they wouldn't have needed to ban GGT again.
Call me crazy guys but what if thoughtseize was banned?
How much would this hurt the death shadow decks? Quite a bit id imagine
There are few bans which would hurt Modern more. Think things are linear and non-interactive now? A TS ban would make it significantly worse. Thankfully, I can't conceive of a world where Wizards would actually do that, so it's not worth entertaining much.
But aren't the linear decks constructed to not be hurt by T-Seize with redundancy and speed? The issue I'm seeing is that decks either fold to T-Seize, or need to be able to ignore it.
I could see T-Seize banned, but only with an influx of cards to otherwise punish those linear strats.
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
It seems that I predicted the return of the Core set. Great move its a always been a home for vanilla answers and if we ever get a Counterspell reprint it will be in the core set.
A thoughtseize ban would be disastrous and very much have me counterplate quitting MTG altogether. I mainly play GBx decks exclusively now (with burn on the side), I don't see how any black-green fair deck in modern could compete if that were to happen.
It'd make way more sense to straight up ban Death Shadow itself if things became that dire.
I'm sure DS decks frustrate players who play goldfish decks, but an IOK/Thoughtseize ban would truly be one of the worst bannings in all of Magic history.
Hey guys. I'm not a modern player but I follow entusiastically the format. I'd like to ask what do you think about unbanning cards that belong to non-played (or lightly played deck) in order to make a shake-up of the format.
I'm referring to powerful cards such as Stoneforge, Bloodbraid elf, Deathrite and punishing fire (maybe even Jitte). These are fair cards for midrange/tempo strategies, which aren't oppressive actually. Would they destroy the format?
Either Jitte or Fire alone kill every aggro deck in the format.
Deathrite makes jund the undisputed best deck in the format.
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Legacy
Death and Taxes Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
Call me crazy guys but what if thoughtseize was banned?
How much would this hurt the death shadow decks? Quite a bit id imagine
There are few bans which would hurt Modern more. Think things are linear and non-interactive now? A TS ban would make it significantly worse. Thankfully, I can't conceive of a world where Wizards would actually do that, so it's not worth entertaining much.
But aren't the linear decks constructed to not be hurt by T-Seize with redundancy and speed? The issue I'm seeing is that decks either fold to T-Seize, or need to be able to ignore it.
I could see T-Seize banned, but only with an influx of cards to otherwise punish those linear strats.
All the linear decks that TS keeps at bay would return in force. They would either replace or supplement the wider decks, probably the latter, and the format would be in a really bad spot. I understand that a subset of players are unhappy with format elements right now, but that doesn't mean we need to look to these kinds of strange, improbable, and likely ineffective solutions to address the perceived problem.
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Not everyone can afford legacy, but us modern players should still be able to have access to some of the same types of cards that makes legacy so great
I'm referring to powerful cards such as Stoneforge, Bloodbraid elf, Deathrite and punishing fire (maybe even Jitte). These are fair cards for midrange/tempo strategies, which aren't oppressive actually. Would they destroy the format?
I think this supports the same position I've had for a long time (meta's hostility to control still waxes and wanes, of course): Control decks in modern are difficult to build and master, but a variety of builds have a skill ceiling that are high enough to permit skilled pilots to take them to the top of a large event. I don't find that underlying concept problematic since decks (obviously) have different skill ceilings and skill floors.
There is a large pool of cards that work for UW/Esper/Jeskai control decks, which gain and lose value with the shifting meta. No coincidence that Kiki showed up at place 9 in an event where Fatal Push was being chosen over Lightning Bolt in many decks.
Pretty sure the only content you'll find here outside of opinions on those exact topics is metagame analysis. If you want to see what people think about that, why not read back a few pages rather than ask people to produce more pages on those topics?
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Stoneforge and JTMS were banned when the format was first created because people hated playing against UW stoneblade in standard.
Punishing fire makes Jund a tier 0.5 deck. So did DRS, but they didn't want to ban a standard card, so they banned BBE, and then had to ban DRS.
As you can see by the poll, a lot of modern players believe SFM, JTMS, and/or BBE could be unbanned. There's no way they're unbanning Jitte.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
To delve further, not only did Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor cause problems in Standard, they had to be banned eventually. They were essentially banned with one month left in the Standard rotation because attendance was hurting so much because they initially tried to "wait it out." Then, there is also the fact that the 2 cards are Legacy staples. Decks like X Blade or Death and Taxes can't exist without Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor gives another win-con to some Legacy decks. I feel it was a similar basis to why Ancestral Vision was banned for so long - simply because it was played in Shardless BUG because of a card that doesn't exist in Modern.
But yes, there are a lot of players who believe that those cards are all right. I actually am leaning more toward probably seeing an unban of Stoneforge Mystic coming up and slightly less likely, no changes.
Agreed with Jitte. Wizards wants formats to be creature based. Why would they introduce a card that single handedly wins those types of battles?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Jitte does require to be creature based, so it would be great in creature based mirror but no so great in non-interactive games. Of course SFM and Jitte cannot be unbanned together!
I remember when Jitte was legal in extended (which was extremley more creature based than actual modern) and it wasn't so oppressive.
I'm not trying to speculate on absurd unbanning, just trying to understand how things would work out in such a scenario
Jitte was legal in extended with different legendary rules though too. Previously if the opponent put a jitte into play you could put your own into play and they both go away which was rough, but not the worst. Now the first player gets to machine gun down anything the opponent plays so they get the powerful equipment, but the opp can't do anything.
A few pages back, I wrote out the ten criteria the "blue sucks" camp needs to see in a deck before it is declared viable. As you might imagine, those criteria are unmet after even these results. Some of the decks run Geist, i.e. "too midrangey." Others run Kiki combo, i.e. "too proactive." And naturally there's the "just one event" rebuttal; it's an extremely narrow definition of success. Although I empathize with the desire for more data points, I also think these decks are much better than man acknowledge.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Hm. Interesting. What were the conversion rates for Eldrazi Tron and Living End?
How much would this hurt the death shadow decks? Quite a bit id imagine
Combo decks are prevalent enough as it is without doing something crazy like that.
There are few bans which would hurt Modern more. Think things are linear and non-interactive now? A TS ban would make it significantly worse. Thankfully, I can't conceive of a world where Wizards would actually do that, so it's not worth entertaining much.
maybe. but this change should revitalize the audience, and giving modern A LITTLE more space for hardcore players
I don't know but I sure hope so! I spent the first few turns wondering why his life total was so high and where the damned death's shadows were. I saw a Dark Confidant for christ's sake!
EDH: -UG Ezuri-UGZegana-BRMogis-WUBRGRamos-WBREdgar-URLocust God-WUBRBreya-BMacar-WUBrago-WEvra-
One time affects can get the job done but against decks like dredge or Grixis Shadow which can refill the yard very quickly it isn't as good.
Its easy to be hyper critical about things like, not making use of all of your mana in order to keep up 1 for relic when we have the benefit of complete knowledge of the possible plays both players can make, a great way to lose against DS decks and dredge is to sit around losing out on developing your own board and losing mana to attempt to be hyper reactive. Against DS decks if you don't cast your cards when provided the opportunity you might not be casting it at all, and dredge can play through multiple relics its not a instant win like RIP or LVoid. I think that running 4 in your board is pretty heavy even if you have to run sub par hate to not screw yourself. The real issue is that pretty much every deck utilizes the GY as a resource and can't run the best hate and understand that the opponent likely cannot either its just old school MAD. This ignores that while Dredge is completely hosed by great GY hate Grixis Shadow isn't it does slow down your plays but it is probably equally as likely that you mulligan for your GY hate and the opponent just has a hand that powers out DS early and you probably lost by mulling for hate that doesn't do anything for you. If it was as cut and dry easy as your making it out to be they wouldn't have needed to ban GGT again.
But aren't the linear decks constructed to not be hurt by T-Seize with redundancy and speed? The issue I'm seeing is that decks either fold to T-Seize, or need to be able to ignore it.
I could see T-Seize banned, but only with an influx of cards to otherwise punish those linear strats.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
It'd make way more sense to straight up ban Death Shadow itself if things became that dire.
I'm sure DS decks frustrate players who play goldfish decks, but an IOK/Thoughtseize ban would truly be one of the worst bannings in all of Magic history.
Unban: Stoneforge Mystic
Ban: Nothing
(but if there is a ban, my prediction is Death's Shadow)
Heck, I'll try other formats also.
Legacy: Earthcraft unbanned.
Standard: No changes.
Vintage: I don't know that much about Vintage but I'm going to guess no changes.
Either Jitte or Fire alone kill every aggro deck in the format.
Deathrite makes jund the undisputed best deck in the format.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
All the linear decks that TS keeps at bay would return in force. They would either replace or supplement the wider decks, probably the latter, and the format would be in a really bad spot. I understand that a subset of players are unhappy with format elements right now, but that doesn't mean we need to look to these kinds of strange, improbable, and likely ineffective solutions to address the perceived problem.