If the two-card combo of Vizier + Druid are ok for modern, Twin should also be ok.
Vizier can even kill a turn earlier and the deck plays a lot of tutoring effects to find the pieces.
Someone explain how this deck is ok but Twin is not
I've explained this about 5 times now but in addition to it really being a 3 card combo, Twin got to play its combo in a shell of control spells and play almost entirely at instant speed. The difference is quite substantial.
The druid combo, because it requires 3 pieces, functionally has to be played with collected company which has deck building constraints that prevent it from playing much interaction.
Eh, too be fair, the CoCo decks play pretty well at instant speed as well with Chord and CoCo and Witness rebuying them. I think the deck is absolutely fine, but this hysteria about twin is hilarious. It was never "too good" for the format. It was 9-12% and was around 10% when it got banned. We're not talking 30-35% BBE/DRS Jund or Eldrazi Winter and it certainly didn't violate any of the stated rules of the format. Also, apparently Wizards kills Ux decks out of the format, but just touches every other deck when it comes to bans. There are lots of 2 card combo's in the format, but I don't see WoTC touching them (Ad Naus/Goryo's/etc.). Hell, there are even 1 card "combo's" (maybe 2 if you want to get technical with stuff like Valakut/Scapeshift and Storm (cantrips/rituals + grapeshot)) like with Living End.
There's a pretty obvious double standard from the data and rationalization with Twin with how the format has looked since Twin. I don't expect WoTC to be rational with their ban criteria and what they ban though. I expect hypocrisy.
IMO the fact that WotC can ban 1-2 cards out of a strategy like Jund, Eldrazi, Pod and those bannings didn't completely render the shells as non competitive actually shows actually how powerful the Combo was. The only other bannings in Modern that really come close are the banning of Bloom and Probe and even in the case of Probe 1 of the 3 decks "targeted" with the ban actually survived and evolved to be competitive without it.
Again none of those Combo's you pointed out are actually 1 or 2 card combo's. Ad Naus is a 3 card minimum unless you think drawing your entire hand instantly wins you the game on its own. Goryo's is a 3 card minimum Goryo, the fattie your bringing back and the method for placing it into the yard, and again Goryo's while a very solid combo can fizzle out so its not even as good as Twin on the bar of winning you the game. Valakut does nothing without all of the ramp spells, even with Valakut and Scapeshift together they are pretty bad if you are just waiting to naturally hit land drops up to 7. The idea that you are calling Storm a 1 card combo is pretty strange as it is almost certainly the most dependent on having a critical mass of spells to achieve the combo kill.
the Banning of Twin is in keeping with the tradition WotC has of banning broken 2 card combos since Channel+Fireball
Regarding JTMS, a recent Channel Fireball video has one of the hosts mentioning that he asked Forsythe about the possibility of an unban. The answer was "never". Not only due to balance issues but because of how hard it would be to ban such an expensive card again should it prove necessary. Not worth it for WotC.
In said video he said he asked him 3 years ago or so. Also, we know, based on Aaron's tweet, that they are hearing the JTMS unbanning arguments and they would bring it up for discussion when modern is brought up.
Regarding the SFM comment. No, that's not why SFM is banned. It was a problem for standard, it is not a problem for modern. They don't consider modern when printing new cards. Also keep in mind that literally ALL the equipments they have printed since Batterskull/swords are pathetic to say the least. There is not such thing as "inevitability of printing a more busted card thatn Batterskull".
SFM, JtmS and MM all received bans based on the same justifications and Standard performance wasn't the justification. It was that they were all Great in Legacy which is still true, even more so for SFM now that top is banned as top decks pushed SFM strategies out of the meta and we are seeing them return.
Given the history of Magic it seems far more likely that they will inevitably print something else broken, because of course they said the same kind of never going to happen again things after Jitte and then Skull clamp.......thats kind of the problem with accidents that produce broken things they are not intentional so how can you intentionally not do something that you never had intended to do in the first place.
Yeah because Titan shift can tutor up the artifact with its summoners pacts....
If it's as powerful as people on here think they would def play 4 batterskull and then have 8 titans available yes. Pact wouldn't need to go get it there were/are plenty of lists playing walkers that, guess what, can't be gotten with pact.
Maybe if they didn't have a method of tutoring up a very powerful 4/4 life gain creature already. The comparison with what on average 2 Chandra's seems intentionally misleading as those are card draw engines for those decks.
I mean you could make the same kind of nonsense argument for things like "if cheaper eldrazi are so good with temple why doesn't every deck just jam 4x temple 4x tks etc... it would after all be trivial for decks to add such powerful affects"
SFM actually increases the power level of Batterskull because you know cheating it into play at instant speed while also cheating on mana tends to make most any card more powerful.
Baloth is very powerful now? Never heard it been called that before. You're missing the point. Batterskull isn't that good even on t3. Not very sneaky putting it in at instant speed when you showed the opponent you were getting it and give them a turn to stop it with hand disruption or creature removal. Also Chandra doesn't draw cards. If she did she'd be much better.
In the deck you attempted to use as a example it is better since they can already tutor for it and don't need to run a 3rd color to do so.
This is just trolling if your going to ignore your own example and attempt to act like I was speaking as if the conversation was about a vacuum. You brought up Titan breach and Eldrazi Tron runs BS out of the board.
Yeah I brought up titan breach as an example of a deck that can drop it on t3. We can use eldrazi tron as that example too if you'd like, my point still stands that it isn't that powerful or they'd be making sure it hit earlier/more often (run more copies) but it's not even close to the best things they can be doing on t3 so they don't. This is my point, t3 skull being the most powerful sfm could do isn't broken in the least. Idk what you think I'm trying to make this about but I'm talking about the fact that if it were soooooo busted like some seem to think people would already be making it happen early without sfm. Fact is batterskull is just good compared to things like t3 titan swing and kill you in breach, t2 kill you in gishoalbrand, t3 kill you in storm, t3 kill you in company, t3/4 kill you in affinity, t3/4 kill you in burn, t3 kill you in infect, t3 karn in any tron list, t2 tks into t3 smasher in any eldrazi list, t1-3 take all your cards put out a fatty or 2 in deathshadow list, and even t2/3 kill you in some random decks like cheeri0's (cool but all those things happen only if the opponent doesn't have any interaction, well same is true for sfm). Beyond the point that it's not fast enough to be troublesome in the current meta it also has the issue that there is hate everywhere for small creatures, hands, artifacts, and just turtoring in general. There is no way sfm is too good for modern and people that can't see that are silly. Is it good sure could it be in a t1 deck maybe, but I'm certainly not convinced it would be, and if it is I really think it'd be because it could use swords or something of that nature that isn't in the format currently.
Regarding JTMS, a recent Channel Fireball video has one of the hosts mentioning that he asked Forsythe about the possibility of an unban. The answer was "never". Not only due to balance issues but because of how hard it would be to ban such an expensive card again should it prove necessary. Not worth it for WotC.
In said video he said he asked him 3 years ago or so. Also, we know, based on Aaron's tweet, that they are hearing the JTMS unbanning arguments and they would bring it up for discussion when modern is brought up.
Regarding the SFM comment. No, that's not why SFM is banned. It was a problem for standard, it is not a problem for modern. They don't consider modern when printing new cards. Also keep in mind that literally ALL the equipments they have printed since Batterskull/swords are pathetic to say the least. There is not such thing as "inevitability of printing a more busted card thatn Batterskull".
SFM, JtmS and MM all received bans based on the same justifications and Standard performance wasn't the justification. It was that they were all Great in Legacy which is still true, even more so for SFM now that top is banned as top decks pushed SFM strategies out of the meta and we are seeing them return.
Given the history of Magic it seems far more likely that they will inevitably print something else broken, because of course they said the same kind of never going to happen again things after Jitte and then Skull clamp.......thats kind of the problem with accidents that produce broken things they are not intentional so how can you intentionally not do something that you never had intended to do in the first place.
You put a flag up on equipment as to make sure it doesn't slip through just like anything else in life. It's not like other things in the game there are only a select few every set so it's not hard to double and triple check them to be sure they're ok. Even more so now with a new test group in the works for feedback. Jitte is the reason sfm is good in legacy and it'll never be legal in modern.
Regarding JTMS, a recent Channel Fireball video has one of the hosts mentioning that he asked Forsythe about the possibility of an unban. The answer was "never". Not only due to balance issues but because of how hard it would be to ban such an expensive card again should it prove necessary. Not worth it for WotC.
Also from the show: "SFM is banned because it limits what equipment WotC can print, not because its too powerful even with a Batterskull at the moment".
When they inevitably print something more busted than Batterskull an unbanned SFM would likely make it problematic.
At this point, I kinda don't care about the potential unbans. Just wait out the set after Ixalan and see what it brings.
You're taking a couple things out of context here. Mashi said he asked AF about Jace several years ago, so that's a very old statement. I think he's told that story before, because I'm pretty sure I've heard it before. The format has changed over the years, and the fact that AF even said they would discuss it means there's a possibility.
About SFM, that comment was the opinion of the co-host, and he's completely wrong. WotC will never print another equipment as powerful as Batterskull. They're not even likely to print anything as powerful as the swords again. SFM is not limiting what equipment they can make because their design parameters for equipment right now are much lower in power level than equipment that already exists in the Modern card pool. And if they do somehow mess up and print an equipment more busted than Batterskull, then just ban that.
Ad Naus is a 3 card minimum unless you think drawing your entire hand instantly wins you the game on its own. Goryo's is a 3 card minimum Goryo, the fattie your bringing back and the method for placing it into the yard, and again Goryo's while a very solid combo can fizzle out so its not even as good as Twin on the bar of winning you the game.
Ad Naus is a 2 card combo. You only need the 2 cards to execute your game winning combo because when you draw your deck you will automatically find the Lightning Storm or Lab Maniac. The same is kind of true of Goryo's, but it's not a gauruntee that you'll kill every time when you get your 2 card combo because the deck has a high failure rate.
SFM, JtmS and MM all received bans based on the same justifications and Standard performance wasn't the justification. It was that they were all Great in Legacy which is still true, even more so for SFM now that top is banned as top decks pushed SFM strategies out of the meta and we are seeing them return.
That's not a valid justification. Modern is not Legacy. The environment of the format changes how good some cards may or may not be. SFM, in particular, is decidedly worse in Modern than it is in Legacy because you don't have access to Jitte.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Regarding JTMS, a recent Channel Fireball video has one of the hosts mentioning that he asked Forsythe about the possibility of an unban. The answer was "never". Not only due to balance issues but because of how hard it would be to ban such an expensive card again should it prove necessary. Not worth it for WotC.
In said video he said he asked him 3 years ago or so. Also, we know, based on Aaron's tweet, that they are hearing the JTMS unbanning arguments and they would bring it up for discussion when modern is brought up.
Regarding the SFM comment. No, that's not why SFM is banned. It was a problem for standard, it is not a problem for modern. They don't consider modern when printing new cards. Also keep in mind that literally ALL the equipments they have printed since Batterskull/swords are pathetic to say the least. There is not such thing as "inevitability of printing a more busted card thatn Batterskull".
SFM, JtmS and MM all received bans based on the same justifications and Standard performance wasn't the justification. It was that they were all Great in Legacy which is still true, even more so for SFM now that top is banned as top decks pushed SFM strategies out of the meta and we are seeing them return.
Given the history of Magic it seems far more likely that they will inevitably print something else broken, because of course they said the same kind of never going to happen again things after Jitte and then Skull clamp.......thats kind of the problem with accidents that produce broken things they are not intentional so how can you intentionally not do something that you never had intended to do in the first place.
You put a flag up on equipment as to make sure it doesn't slip through just like anything else in life. It's not like other things in the game there are only a select few every set so it's not hard to double and triple check them to be sure they're ok. Even more so now with a new test group in the works for feedback. Jitte is the reason sfm is good in legacy and it'll never be legal in modern.
I mean, that is the problem with SFM, I would bet. Even if it would be OK now, having it in the format means they have to be careful about what they do with equipment in the future or risk re-banning him or the new toy. WotC has basically said they want to do the minimum in terms of testing and designing for modern, but at the same time they dislike the bad press from bannings. When you look at it that way, I don't think SFM is coming off. Even if being more careful about equipment wouldn't take that much effort, it is still effort that detracts from their main focus of making cool stuff for standard.
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Regarding JTMS, a recent Channel Fireball video has one of the hosts mentioning that he asked Forsythe about the possibility of an unban. The answer was "never". Not only due to balance issues but because of how hard it would be to ban such an expensive card again should it prove necessary. Not worth it for WotC.
In said video he said he asked him 3 years ago or so. Also, we know, based on Aaron's tweet, that they are hearing the JTMS unbanning arguments and they would bring it up for discussion when modern is brought up.
Regarding the SFM comment. No, that's not why SFM is banned. It was a problem for standard, it is not a problem for modern. They don't consider modern when printing new cards. Also keep in mind that literally ALL the equipments they have printed since Batterskull/swords are pathetic to say the least. There is not such thing as "inevitability of printing a more busted card thatn Batterskull".
SFM, JtmS and MM all received bans based on the same justifications and Standard performance wasn't the justification. It was that they were all Great in Legacy which is still true, even more so for SFM now that top is banned as top decks pushed SFM strategies out of the meta and we are seeing them return.
Given the history of Magic it seems far more likely that they will inevitably print something else broken, because of course they said the same kind of never going to happen again things after Jitte and then Skull clamp.......thats kind of the problem with accidents that produce broken things they are not intentional so how can you intentionally not do something that you never had intended to do in the first place.
You put a flag up on equipment as to make sure it doesn't slip through just like anything else in life. It's not like other things in the game there are only a select few every set so it's not hard to double and triple check them to be sure they're ok. Even more so now with a new test group in the works for feedback. Jitte is the reason sfm is good in legacy and it'll never be legal in modern.
I mean, that is the problem with SFM, I would bet. Even if it would be OK now, having it in the format means they have to be careful about what they do with equipment in the future or risk re-banning him or the new toy. WotC has basically said they want to do the minimum in terms of testing and designing for modern, but at the same time they dislike the bad press from bannings. When you look at it that way, I don't think SFM is coming off. Even if being more careful about equipment wouldn't take that much effort, it is still effort that detracts from their main focus of making cool stuff for standard.
That could be an arguement except they've made it clear they wont print good equipment anymore. I mean we just got another artifact set and they printed nothing worth a hoot in it. They made it very clear they aren't printing good equipment anymore. Unless you count some stuff for cheeri0's maybe lol. Even if they did it's not like they didn't just do that same thing wih ggt and I didn't really see anyone care too much that it got rebanned.
"People are too hung up on these cards. There is something seriously wrong with your capacity to enjoy modern if it hinges on a few cards in its banlist."
What is the point of this thread then? To only be negative about modern cards and ask for them to be banned? The people that want unbans want them because they like where modern is at and want to bring more into the fold. Why not have an equipment deck in modern??
Someone could correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Godsend see some play in that legacy Equipment deck? (Admittedly to fight True Name mostly) Godsend itself while not Sword or Batterskull, isn't a terrible card, once on board turns makes blocking hard. And once equipped the creature itself will be Bolt Immune.
Someone could correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Godsend see some play in that legacy Equipment deck? (Admittedly to fight True Name mostly) Godsend itself while not Sword or Batterskull, isn't a terrible card, once on board turns makes blocking hard. And once equipped the creature itself will be Bolt Immune.
Godsend is a horrible card and will never see play in modern.
Someone could correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Godsend see some play in that legacy Equipment deck? (Admittedly to fight True Name mostly) Godsend itself while not Sword or Batterskull, isn't a terrible card, once on board turns makes blocking hard. And once equipped the creature itself will be Bolt Immune.
So far as I am aware it did not. It wouldn't really be great at that since you can't block a True Name and they always have the option to block if they want to so Sword of Fire and Ice is pretty much always going to be better.
I doubt Death's Shadow itself will be banned because it actually makes for some very interesting games where you have to calculate how much life you are willing to lose and your opponent has to calculate how much damage they should deal to you. I also think wizards is moving away from banning entire archetypes anymore, which is why they only decided to slow down dredge slightly instead of outright gutting the deck.
The best ban is probably the "free" draw spell in Street Wraith if they are going to hit anything. IMO its the #1 culprit because it allows Death Shadow decks to skimp on lands, increases the effectiveness of bauble, makes it easier to hit delirium, fuels delve, and of course lets you burn through your own life very quickly.
I would bet on the following happening next week:
Bans - Street Wraith or nothing
Unbans - Stoneforge or nothing
I dont really understand the argument that SFM should stay banned because WOTC "might" print a busted equipment down the line. As others have pointed out they have really scaled back the power of equipment. Its also worth noting that there are better answers to sfm now. Sfm can be killed before it even cheats out what it tutored, and both can be k-commanded. Furthermore, it's hard to think any equipment cheated out turn 3 will be more powerful than turn 3 reality smasher/tasigur/karn/shadow/vizier combo/living end. Im not saying there are no risks to the card, but I am saying something being banned for the possibility of it being problematic down the line is a bad reason to leave something banned. That's like banning the merfolk lords because WOTC "might" print a super busted modern legal merfolk down the line.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
I doubt Death's Shadow itself will be banned because it actually makes for some very interesting games where you have to calculate how much life you are willing to lose and your opponent has to calculate how much damage they should deal to you. I also think wizards is moving away from banning entire archetypes anymore, which is why they only decided to slow down dredge slightly instead of outright gutting the deck.
The best ban is probably the "free" draw spell in Street Wraith if they are going to hit anything. IMO its the #1 culprit because it allows Death Shadow decks to skimp on lands, increases the effectiveness of bauble, makes it easier to hit delirium, fuels delve, and of course lets you burn through your own life very quickly.
I would bet on the following happening next week:
Bans - Street Wraith or nothing
Unbans - Stoneforge or nothing
I agree with your assessment. I don't think we're to the point where anything needs a ban but if LE creeps higher and ds decks stay at the top I think wrath is the most reasonable ban. Even the ppl on here has most people wanting no bans and sfm unbanned.
As much as people including myself might want SFM unbanned, I think it has a pretty low chance of actually getting unbanned. I think there are two things WotC will find paramount in this discussion:
-future design space limitations
-legacy and modern decks both featuring the card
While there are a few different angles from-which to view SFM, I think WotC will not unban it in order to avoid making modern look more like legacy, and to avoid constraining future design space. These two factors IMO, combined with a general lack of impetus to act, will result in SFM not getting it's deserved unban.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
As much as people including myself might want SFM unbanned, I think it has a pretty low chance of actually getting unbanned. I think there are two things WotC will find paramount in this discussion:
-future design space limitations
-legacy and modern decks both featuring the card
While there are a few different angles from-which to view SFM, I think WotC will not unban it in order to avoid making modern look more like legacy, and to avoid constraining future design space. These two factors IMO, combined with a general lack of impetus to act, will result in SFM not getting it's deserved unban.
I feel like design space would be a valid argument if they had literally printed any relevant or playable equipment since 2011. We just had a two set artifact block with absolutely no meaningful equipment, and have otherwise seen nothing across all other sets. This is a stupid reason for not unbanning SFM. Just like we will never see another vehicle on the level of Smuggler's Copter, it's clear they will never print equipment that is better than Batterskull, Jitte, or the Swords. So there's really no excuse there.
If it wasn't clear, I disagree with those rationales. But I believe it will be what WotC uses to avoid the unban.
Ah, exactly. So they make some kind of internal decision based on gut feelings, superficial perceptions, and internal echo chambers, then make up some BS reason to sell to the public justifying it. Makes sense. Fits perfectly in line with many of their decisions.
Stoneforge doesn't restrict future design like Birthing Pod did.
What makes Batterskull so good is the Living Weapon mechanic. Living Weapon is not normal for equipment to have and such should not even be taken into consideration because they will likely never print that mechanic again except for the occasional supplemental product.
Maro said a lot of times that older formats dont matter when designing cards, cause, at worst, they can be banned, but at the same time, people keep saying that SFM is still banned because of this. Jitte is the real offender, and i think that SFM would be a good card for modern
Let's hurry up and ban Liliana and thoughtseize and goyf and snapcaster for being good in legacy. What a nonsense argument. Stoneforge sees less (or at best comparable) play than goyf in legacy and would see less in modern.
As much as people including myself might want SFM unbanned, I think it has a pretty low chance of actually getting unbanned. I think there are two things WotC will find paramount in this discussion:
-future design space limitations
-legacy and modern decks both featuring the card
While there are a few different angles from-which to view SFM, I think WotC will not unban it in order to avoid making modern look more like legacy, and to avoid constraining future design space. These two factors IMO, combined with a general lack of impetus to act, will result in SFM not getting it's deserved unban.
I agree with this. Probably just less of a headache for them to keep it on. Not exactly a great reason for something to stay banned, but I really think the limiting-future-design-space thing has traction. Sure, equipment is powered down now, but it may not stay that way. Plus, no one has faith in their ability to avoid "oops too powerful" cards in any context. SFM magnifies any potential problem down the line.
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traverse the ulvenwald limits future design space for Wizards just as much, if not more, than SFM. Every argument for it staying on the banned list is terrible and absurd. SFM will almost surely stay banned well into the future but for no other reason than Wizards is lazy with modern.
What is the point of this thread then? To only be negative about modern cards and ask for them to be banned? The people that want unbans want them because they like where modern is at and want to bring more into the fold. Why not have an equipment deck in modern??
You could try discussing the metagame, new decks, tournament results, sideboard tech, deck diversity, impact of new cards, etc. There are other topics besides the banned list.
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
Yeah I brought up titan breach as an example of a deck that can drop it on t3. We can use eldrazi tron as that example too if you'd like, my point still stands that it isn't that powerful or they'd be making sure it hit earlier/more often (run more copies) but it's not even close to the best things they can be doing on t3 so they don't. This is my point, t3 skull being the most powerful sfm could do isn't broken in the least. Idk what you think I'm trying to make this about but I'm talking about the fact that if it were soooooo busted like some seem to think people would already be making it happen early without sfm. Fact is batterskull is just good compared to things like t3 titan swing and kill you in breach, t2 kill you in gishoalbrand, t3 kill you in storm, t3 kill you in company, t3/4 kill you in affinity, t3/4 kill you in burn, t3 kill you in infect, t3 karn in any tron list, t2 tks into t3 smasher in any eldrazi list, t1-3 take all your cards put out a fatty or 2 in deathshadow list, and even t2/3 kill you in some random decks like cheeri0's (cool but all those things happen only if the opponent doesn't have any interaction, well same is true for sfm). Beyond the point that it's not fast enough to be troublesome in the current meta it also has the issue that there is hate everywhere for small creatures, hands, artifacts, and just turtoring in general. There is no way sfm is too good for modern and people that can't see that are silly. Is it good sure could it be in a t1 deck maybe, but I'm certainly not convinced it would be, and if it is I really think it'd be because it could use swords or something of that nature that isn't in the format currently.
If it wasn't clear, I disagree with those rationales. But I believe it will be what WotC uses to avoid the unban.
Ah, exactly. So they make some kind of internal decision based on gut feelings, superficial perceptions, and internal echo chambers, then make up some BS reason to sell to the public justifying it. Makes sense. Fits perfectly in line with many of their decisions.
And then I saw this. .__.
All I'm asking is for W to have its own Bob/Snappy/Goyf/Goblin Guide.
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Modern: Death&Taxes / U Tron / G Tron / Goblins
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
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IMO the fact that WotC can ban 1-2 cards out of a strategy like Jund, Eldrazi, Pod and those bannings didn't completely render the shells as non competitive actually shows actually how powerful the Combo was. The only other bannings in Modern that really come close are the banning of Bloom and Probe and even in the case of Probe 1 of the 3 decks "targeted" with the ban actually survived and evolved to be competitive without it.
Again none of those Combo's you pointed out are actually 1 or 2 card combo's. Ad Naus is a 3 card minimum unless you think drawing your entire hand instantly wins you the game on its own. Goryo's is a 3 card minimum Goryo, the fattie your bringing back and the method for placing it into the yard, and again Goryo's while a very solid combo can fizzle out so its not even as good as Twin on the bar of winning you the game. Valakut does nothing without all of the ramp spells, even with Valakut and Scapeshift together they are pretty bad if you are just waiting to naturally hit land drops up to 7. The idea that you are calling Storm a 1 card combo is pretty strange as it is almost certainly the most dependent on having a critical mass of spells to achieve the combo kill.
the Banning of Twin is in keeping with the tradition WotC has of banning broken 2 card combos since Channel+Fireball
SFM, JtmS and MM all received bans based on the same justifications and Standard performance wasn't the justification. It was that they were all Great in Legacy which is still true, even more so for SFM now that top is banned as top decks pushed SFM strategies out of the meta and we are seeing them return.
Given the history of Magic it seems far more likely that they will inevitably print something else broken, because of course they said the same kind of never going to happen again things after Jitte and then Skull clamp.......thats kind of the problem with accidents that produce broken things they are not intentional so how can you intentionally not do something that you never had intended to do in the first place.
Yeah I brought up titan breach as an example of a deck that can drop it on t3. We can use eldrazi tron as that example too if you'd like, my point still stands that it isn't that powerful or they'd be making sure it hit earlier/more often (run more copies) but it's not even close to the best things they can be doing on t3 so they don't. This is my point, t3 skull being the most powerful sfm could do isn't broken in the least. Idk what you think I'm trying to make this about but I'm talking about the fact that if it were soooooo busted like some seem to think people would already be making it happen early without sfm. Fact is batterskull is just good compared to things like t3 titan swing and kill you in breach, t2 kill you in gishoalbrand, t3 kill you in storm, t3 kill you in company, t3/4 kill you in affinity, t3/4 kill you in burn, t3 kill you in infect, t3 karn in any tron list, t2 tks into t3 smasher in any eldrazi list, t1-3 take all your cards put out a fatty or 2 in deathshadow list, and even t2/3 kill you in some random decks like cheeri0's (cool but all those things happen only if the opponent doesn't have any interaction, well same is true for sfm). Beyond the point that it's not fast enough to be troublesome in the current meta it also has the issue that there is hate everywhere for small creatures, hands, artifacts, and just turtoring in general. There is no way sfm is too good for modern and people that can't see that are silly. Is it good sure could it be in a t1 deck maybe, but I'm certainly not convinced it would be, and if it is I really think it'd be because it could use swords or something of that nature that isn't in the format currently.
You put a flag up on equipment as to make sure it doesn't slip through just like anything else in life. It's not like other things in the game there are only a select few every set so it's not hard to double and triple check them to be sure they're ok. Even more so now with a new test group in the works for feedback. Jitte is the reason sfm is good in legacy and it'll never be legal in modern.
About SFM, that comment was the opinion of the co-host, and he's completely wrong. WotC will never print another equipment as powerful as Batterskull. They're not even likely to print anything as powerful as the swords again. SFM is not limiting what equipment they can make because their design parameters for equipment right now are much lower in power level than equipment that already exists in the Modern card pool. And if they do somehow mess up and print an equipment more busted than Batterskull, then just ban that.
Ad Naus is a 2 card combo. You only need the 2 cards to execute your game winning combo because when you draw your deck you will automatically find the Lightning Storm or Lab Maniac. The same is kind of true of Goryo's, but it's not a gauruntee that you'll kill every time when you get your 2 card combo because the deck has a high failure rate.
That's not a valid justification. Modern is not Legacy. The environment of the format changes how good some cards may or may not be. SFM, in particular, is decidedly worse in Modern than it is in Legacy because you don't have access to Jitte.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I mean, that is the problem with SFM, I would bet. Even if it would be OK now, having it in the format means they have to be careful about what they do with equipment in the future or risk re-banning him or the new toy. WotC has basically said they want to do the minimum in terms of testing and designing for modern, but at the same time they dislike the bad press from bannings. When you look at it that way, I don't think SFM is coming off. Even if being more careful about equipment wouldn't take that much effort, it is still effort that detracts from their main focus of making cool stuff for standard.
That could be an arguement except they've made it clear they wont print good equipment anymore. I mean we just got another artifact set and they printed nothing worth a hoot in it. They made it very clear they aren't printing good equipment anymore. Unless you count some stuff for cheeri0's maybe lol. Even if they did it's not like they didn't just do that same thing wih ggt and I didn't really see anyone care too much that it got rebanned.
"People are too hung up on these cards. There is something seriously wrong with your capacity to enjoy modern if it hinges on a few cards in its banlist."
What is the point of this thread then? To only be negative about modern cards and ask for them to be banned? The people that want unbans want them because they like where modern is at and want to bring more into the fold. Why not have an equipment deck in modern??
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
So far as I am aware it did not. It wouldn't really be great at that since you can't block a True Name and they always have the option to block if they want to so Sword of Fire and Ice is pretty much always going to be better.
The best ban is probably the "free" draw spell in Street Wraith if they are going to hit anything. IMO its the #1 culprit because it allows Death Shadow decks to skimp on lands, increases the effectiveness of bauble, makes it easier to hit delirium, fuels delve, and of course lets you burn through your own life very quickly.
I would bet on the following happening next week:
Bans - Street Wraith or nothing
Unbans - Stoneforge or nothing
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
I agree with your assessment. I don't think we're to the point where anything needs a ban but if LE creeps higher and ds decks stay at the top I think wrath is the most reasonable ban. Even the ppl on here has most people wanting no bans and sfm unbanned.
-future design space limitations
-legacy and modern decks both featuring the card
While there are a few different angles from-which to view SFM, I think WotC will not unban it in order to avoid making modern look more like legacy, and to avoid constraining future design space. These two factors IMO, combined with a general lack of impetus to act, will result in SFM not getting it's deserved unban.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I feel like design space would be a valid argument if they had literally printed any relevant or playable equipment since 2011. We just had a two set artifact block with absolutely no meaningful equipment, and have otherwise seen nothing across all other sets. This is a stupid reason for not unbanning SFM. Just like we will never see another vehicle on the level of Smuggler's Copter, it's clear they will never print equipment that is better than Batterskull, Jitte, or the Swords. So there's really no excuse there.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Ah, exactly. So they make some kind of internal decision based on gut feelings, superficial perceptions, and internal echo chambers, then make up some BS reason to sell to the public justifying it. Makes sense. Fits perfectly in line with many of their decisions.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
This looks horrible lol bet it's hard to win with honestly.
What makes Batterskull so good is the Living Weapon mechanic. Living Weapon is not normal for equipment to have and such should not even be taken into consideration because they will likely never print that mechanic again except for the occasional supplemental product.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I agree with this. Probably just less of a headache for them to keep it on. Not exactly a great reason for something to stay banned, but I really think the limiting-future-design-space thing has traction. Sure, equipment is powered down now, but it may not stay that way. Plus, no one has faith in their ability to avoid "oops too powerful" cards in any context. SFM magnifies any potential problem down the line.
You could try discussing the metagame, new decks, tournament results, sideboard tech, deck diversity, impact of new cards, etc. There are other topics besides the banned list.
I logged in solely for this.
And then I saw this. .__.
All I'm asking is for W to have its own Bob/Snappy/Goyf/Goblin Guide.
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif