I caveat this as a thought experiment those pushing for Twin back and/or Jace; when GB/X decks were going the way of Dodo because of Dig, Cruise, Pod with Rhino, and then followed by Eldrazi Winter, if a GB/X players argued for a return of Elf (Deathrite and BloodBraid), GSZ or depending how you wanted to stretched it Punishing Fire. So they would get their proper meta share back. Would you have said "No to strong (Deathrite)", "Remove/Weaken X Archtype (Fire)" or "Homogenize Green Decks (GSZ)".
While admittedly GB/X never fell as low (hovering around 7-8 percent if you combined Abzan and Jund) as (Reactive/'Control') U/X is now (which is I believe noted earlier to be around 4-6 percent depending on catorgization. More if we count Delver, the statistics I saw (believe) quoted only include the Explicit Control decks and excluded Delver/Flash). To avoid a constant ramble, if the position was reverse and you were in GB/X or DS Jund (which was quoted (Deathshadow) at being around 20% two week ago, but earlier this week it was mentioned to have fallen to 11%, and but has cannablize more traditional GB/X Decks), and they asked you "Can we unban Deathrite? It dies to removal, does nothing vs fast aggro that kills on turn 3, worst it could do is power out T2 Veil, which is only good vs decks that are only one creature on board, and makes it boltable. In addition you have to fetch to ramp, you need a proper card type in graveyard, requiring setup. But it could really help GB/X because it can help us speed up to keep pace with Zoo, Affinity etc, it's a win condition that we don't need to swing so we can win on stall board states."
The comparison is off because Jace is attackable and three more Mana. However he also has instant board impact (bounce), filters in two different ways, and his Win Condition is harder to reverse once setup. But the arguments and card itself is very similar, and is honestly almost akin to Deathrite + Veil Package (two turns different, but one is two cards and other is one card. And nominally Mana intensity but DS makes Veil effectively only 2B in this circumstance)
If you heard the following argument "Our deck has to many 'narrow' removal, with Rhinos, Tasigurs and Drazi's running around Abrupt and IoK not very reliable. And our unconditional other two mana removal forces us into red or to give them a Mana. Thoughtseize only fills their grave faster, or prevents us building a board so we don't die. We need a card that can let us search, our few creatures earlier and fast, I mean it can't be Pod, that is too slow, and requires a board. How about GSZ? It can fix consistency issues, search out silver bullets!" Now the difference this and Twin is Twin as stated with Jace v Deathrite, 4 Mana to 1 Mana. However Twin provides a more immediate clock (well it ends the game then). However like GSZ it homogenized Green decks to a certain setup. And prevents in a Deck Out. For all that matters
Punishing Fire kills an archetype (tribal aggro decks cited in particular), and would power up GB/X (Jund especially) vs Aggro (also Grove vs DS Jund sounds funny to me going on). Unbanning Mystic would fall into this same potential category. I have not discussed her in particular given she fits in U/X and Abzan style decks. And is similar to Deathrite (Deathrite - Veil), Twin (Having to hold up Mana once she drops turn 3 onwards if you don't remove her on spot), as well Twin/GSZ (Homogenizes Deck Construction), and shuts down certain archetypes (Aggro, K-Commandless midrange that cannot discord Batterskull for whatever reason), and is two Mana (more expensive than Deathrite but cheaper than Jace/Twin. And is good top deck like GSZ).
The full thought question for those arguing for Return of Twin/Giving Jace a Chance. How would you argue this scenerio is fundmentally different than Cruise/Eldrazi was for GB/X decks or is it not, and then how are Jace/Twin different than Deathrite/GSZ are or they the same?
And if the answer to the above they are the same, GB/X got better overtime until it has evolved into Death Shadow Jund with 11% of the Metagame and why will U/X decks not in time do the same?
Not to toot my own horn, but am curious on Blue Advocates view on this post I made. If GB/X was in a similar state and asked for Deathrite/GSZ/Punishing Fire back in particular how would you respond? What would were counter be to in some ways an aethestic similarity Deathrite-Jace, and GSZ (or Punishing Fire if you prefer)-Twin have.
Complete list of stats Wraith Made
Death Shadow Jund - 17 (13.3%)
Bant Eldrazi - 10 (7.8%)
Eldrazi Tron - 9 (7%)
Burn - 9 (7%)
Abzan - 6 (4.7%)
Dredge - 5 (3.9%)
Infect - 5 (3.9%)
Titanshift - 5 (3.9%)
Abzan Company - 4 (3.1%)
Merfolk - 4 (3.1%)
Affinity - 4 (3.1%)
Jund - 4 (3.1%)
Ad Nauseam - 4 (3.1%)
Revolt Zoo - 4 (3.1%)
8 Rack - 3 (2.3%)
Grixis Control - 3 (2.3%)
Amulet Titan - 2 (1.6%)
Bant Company - 2 (1.6%)
Breach Titan - 2 (1.6%)
Lantern Control - 2 (1.6%)
GB Tron - 2 (1.6%)
Goryo's Vengeance - 2 (1.6%)
RG Ponza - 2 (1.6%)
Eldrazi & Taxes - 1 (.8%)
Elves - 1 (.8%)
RW Prison - 1 (.8%)
Living End - 1 (.8%)
Esper Transcendent - 1 (.8%)
BTL Scapeshift - 1 (.8%)
GW Tron - 1 (.8%)
Jeskai Saheeli - 1 (.8%)
Naya Midrange - 1 (.8%)
Esper Delve - 1 (.8%)
BW Eldrazi - 1 (.8%)
RUG Scapeshift - 1 (.8%)
Grixis Delver - 1 (.8%)
GW Company - 1 (.8%)
Skred - 1 (.8%)
Mono-Green Ramp - 1 (.8%)
GR Tron - 1 (.8%)
UW Control - 1 (.8%)
--------
True Jund/Abzan number 10 Decks total
U-Control Decks 6 (UW Control, Transcedent, Saheeli and Grixis). If we start throwing Scapeshift decks in their the number increases, but let us ignore that because stretching.
DRS is a busted ass card, and Jund was averaging 20% plus meta-shares, DRS could beat every strategy, GY hate, ping creatures, kill mana dorks, play into a turn two LOTV. DRS>Splinter Twin (and it's not even close).
Green Sun Zenith is also a busted ass card, we're seeing a slightly less broken version of it in Jund right now and it's SO good, I can't imagine other decks playing it, it would smother blue control decks for sure, it'd honestly be the last straw for blue being viable in tier 2
Green Sun Zenith>Splinter Twin
Punishing Fire? Really dude? It would literally make creature aggro unplayable.
You're trying to turn it around and I think it's coming off like bad hyperbole more than you making a point
Wasn't trying to hyperbole; but the argument I hear for and against Jace-
Bad vs Fast Aggro, and Self Contained Win Condition. Deathrite (in combination with Veil) kills decks that only play 1 Creature a turn
Twin is that it was banned for homogenizing Blue Based Deck (just as GSZ, well that and Toolboxing), and preventing experimentation.
I only bring up punishing fire because it was noted as suppressing certain kind of decks (tribal decks), just as twin suppressed decks that lack interaction/tap out T3.
Their are several differences, most notably the Mana cost is very difference. But the argument for why they are banned and why you could want them back (DRS can stay on list, and be fun to see a format or two with Jace in it, for all I care). But the argument I am making-asking how would you draw a distinction as U/X Player if GB/X was in the gutter and asked for those cards back.
Cards and decks don't get banned for being too tool-boxy.
All three of those cards you mentioned are fantastic in just about any point in the game, which I think is one of the important criterias on a cards power level
Twin was banned for homogenizing blue based decks, and guess what happened, instead of those shares being split into more blue bad decks, they got put into other categories and blue has suffered. Blue hasn't seen a tier 1 deck since the ban (and no, I'm not going to count Jeskai Nahiri's two months).
Prevent experimentation? I don't think so, what stops something like Death Shadow Jund from stopping experimenting, it runs 8 discards, an extra 2 to 3 collective brutality if you're a deck that does't like to interact at all
I just think you're going about asking your question in a really cryptic manner
My heart doesn't exactly break for players who are frustrated they need to interact to stop Splinter Twin, the format felt more interactive before it was banned.
Look at the first 24 decks on Mttgoldfish, 8 of those decks want to interact with you, but even of those 8 decks, only the GBx and Grixis decks want to interact, the others just throw in some mainboard interaction but kinda still do their own thing.
I'm fine and respect players wanting to play linear decks, or decks that have close to no interaction, but by all means, I'm not going to feel sorry for them if a deck beats them for not interacting
Wotc got it right. Blue mages are pissed. But Wotc sees attendance numbers form mid level events like SCG, and also sees numbers for local LGS events and sees the the number of decks being played and feel why mess with something a good number of players are enjoying. Let the format evolve form new cards through Standard. If I was Wotc I wouldnt even look at the ban list thinking unban something.
We will have to see what happens the next 6 weeks or so for the next B&R announcement, but if it continues this way, I see no changes then too.
If you were WotC, we never would have seen any unbans. IIRC, you were against each and every unban and predicted that cards like Valakut, Wild Nacatl, and Ancestral Vision would doom the format.
I have answered your comment before.
But you are right, I wouldnt have unbanned anything until the format got to where Wotc liked it, not the player base.
Your doom saying about unbannings is the same as the doom saying about bans. To some, they want bans, others want unbans. If I was Wotc, I wouldnt listen to the player base at all and just look at numbers. Attencance numbers and sales numbers. How many events are LGS firing a week? a month? Those numbers would be a lot easier to understand then the different sides of the player base bickering over the same thing.
So, as far as I understand it, your position is basically this. As long as the amount of people playing Modern stays constant or increases, there can't possibly be anything wrong with the format so nothing should be unbanned, regardless of whether an unbanning would make the format better, bring more people into the format, or make the format more diverse, even if the banned card wouldn't warp the format. That seems like an absurd position to have. Almost no cards would ever be unbanned in any format under those rules. People don't stop playing in tournaments because their card of choice hasn't been unbanned yet.
The thing is, there is no guaranteeing change will make the format better or bring in more players then it loses. People stopped playing during the Dig/Tcruise era, you have to be foolish to think people would step away if something any where near that comes back into the format, and I dont care what color combo either.
Better is subjective. As subjective as the different opinions of what Wotc should do to change the format to appease those certain people.
People don't stop playing in tournaments because their card of choice hasn't been unbanned yet.
Exactly!! Then why worry about the ban list?
But there are people that will step away from the format if certain cards come off. we have no way of knowing the +/- in player change from those changes.
In the end its not about you or me or anyone else on this site, which I am glad of, its up to Wotc.
Spiegal, let me rephrase perhaps.
Let us say GB/x decks only had 3-4% of the meta total for around one year. And were utterly in the gutter for a variety of reasons, just like U/X is today.
But U/X Reactive/Permission decks were making up a total of 20% of the meta. So instead of asking for a ban from U/X deck is on top (for sake of discussion let us say Jace or Twin).
They asked for
Deathrite Shamen
Green Sun Zenith*
Punishing Fire
Because it would allow them to compete better vs Aggro decks (DRS and Fire), be a slow win condition that is interactable with (Deathrite, killable by every removal in format), and allows you access to silver bullet your deck (no clean comparison beside homogenizing deck akin to Twin.)
How would you argue that those two/three cards are fundamentally different than Jace/Twin, in terms of coming off the list or why they should remain banned? (Personally as I said in my above post first is Mana Cost, DRS is 1 Mana to Jace 4, and in regards to Punishing Fire vs Twin, they suppress in different ways. GSZ my view if Pod is banned so should GSZ, and Traverse (unless Traverse is shown over next couple months to fade back in obscurity.)
*GSZ is the weakest comparison here, but is the best one I could think of with 'homogenizing' GB/X decks like Twin did for U/X
Spiegal, let me rephrase perhaps.
Let us say GB/x decks only had 3-4% of the meta total for around one year. And were utterly in the gutter for a variety of reasons, just like U/X is today.
But U/X Reactive/Permission decks were making up a total of 20% of the meta. So instead of asking for a ban from U/X deck is on top (for sake of discussion let us say Jace or Twin).
They asked for
Deathrite Shamen
Green Sun Zenith*
Punishing Fire
The only time when U/X was around 20% was when we had Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time. So hell yeah, go ahead and unban Deathrite. I'd be all for it.
Spiegal, let me rephrase perhaps.
Let us say GB/x decks only had 3-4% of the meta total for around one year. And were utterly in the gutter for a variety of reasons, just like U/X is today.
But U/X Reactive/Permission decks were making up a total of 20% of the meta. So instead of asking for a ban from U/X deck is on top (for sake of discussion let us say Jace or Twin).
They asked for
Deathrite Shamen
Green Sun Zenith*
Punishing Fire
Because it would allow them to compete better vs Aggro decks (DRS and Fire), be a slow win condition that is interactable with (Deathrite, killable by every removal in format), and allows you access to silver bullet your deck (no clean comparison beside homogenizing deck akin to Twin.)
How would you argue that those two/three cards are fundamentally different than Jace/Twin, in terms of coming off the list or why they should remain banned? (Personally as I said in my above post first is Mana Cost, DRS is 1 Mana to Jace 4, and in regards to Punishing Fire vs Twin, they suppress in different ways. GSZ my view if Pod is banned so should GSZ, and Traverse (unless Traverse is shown over next couple months to fade back in obscurity.)
*GSZ is the weakest comparison here, but is the best one I could think of with 'homogenizing' GB/X decks like Twin did for U/X
I think if some how Ux decks got the tools to compete in the current meta to the point where they were 20% while pushing GBx decks down to 3-4% meta share, I don't think it would be unreasonable for them to ask for stronger tools to compete. In this scenario, Ux decks have some sort of tool that GBx just can't keep up with. Having DRS could be the answer, depending on what Ux decks are working with. But this scenario is completely hypothetical given that we don't have those cards, nor do we know what those cards would be. I doubt unbanning Jace and/or preordain would have that sort of impact on the meta, especially given that GBx currently has the tools to fight both of those things. Twin + Jace could probably impact the meta that much, but that is such an unlikely possibility that who cares. Either way, in that scenario, GBx players asking for DRS or GSZ would not be unreasonable, especially if there was reason to believe that those unbanned cards would help their meta share without crushing the entire meta.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Spiegal, let me rephrase perhaps.
Let us say GB/x decks only had 3-4% of the meta total for around one year. And were utterly in the gutter for a variety of reasons, just like U/X is today.
But U/X Reactive/Permission decks were making up a total of 20% of the meta. So instead of asking for a ban from U/X deck is on top (for sake of discussion let us say Jace or Twin).
They asked for
Deathrite Shamen
Green Sun Zenith*
Punishing Fire
Because it would allow them to compete better vs Aggro decks (DRS and Fire), be a slow win condition that is interactable with (Deathrite, killable by every removal in format), and allows you access to silver bullet your deck (no clean comparison beside homogenizing deck akin to Twin.)
How would you argue that those two/three cards are fundamentally different than Jace/Twin, in terms of coming off the list or why they should remain banned? (Personally as I said in my above post first is Mana Cost, DRS is 1 Mana to Jace 4, and in regards to Punishing Fire vs Twin, they suppress in different ways. GSZ my view if Pod is banned so should GSZ, and Traverse (unless Traverse is shown over next couple months to fade back in obscurity.)
*GSZ is the weakest comparison here, but is the best one I could think of with 'homogenizing' GB/X decks like Twin did for U/X
I'd probably blame WOTC for making GBx so bad to begin with, because I don't think I could seriously advocate for any of those unbans, DRS beats up on too many things, his unban would be scarier to me than Jace, SFM or BBE.
I see where you're going with that argument, but I'm just having a difficult time envisioning it, because when it comes down to it GBx is just a pile of the best cards in the format, it would take something like an LOTV/Goyf ban to bump the archetype out of tier 1 (Although either ban would probably make it tier 3).
I already explained how I think those three cards are different from a Twin unban, they're just way above Twins power level. Those are legacy power level cards, Twin isn't.
You keep going back to the homogenizing aspect of it, but look at blue, they're all very different and they're all decks with poor results in the past half year, with middling results since the Twin ban. If the archetype has to be homogenized so be it, if you're competitive and in it to win, blue is just bad. Non Twin blue decks were actually better because it could prey on Twin and the fair decks that preyed on Twin
Spiegal, the homogonizing argument is only made in reference to GSZ/Twin, and while I am saying DRS is comparable to Jace (self contained win condition etc. and (DRS) in combination with Veil stunts any creature deck that plays only 1 Creature a turn. Both are slow win conditions that take a couple turns to get going, and can be removed 'relatively' easily.)
Your focusing on that element i.e Twin and GSZ (and lesser extent Punishing Fire) and ignoring how I am also asking to compare Jace/DRS as part of the 'argument'.
Spiegal, the homogonizing argument is only made in reference to GSZ/Twin, and while I am saying DRS is comparable to Jace (self contained win condition etc. and (DRS) in combination with Veil stunts any creature deck that plays only 1 Creature a turn. Both are slow win conditions that take a couple turns to get going, and can be removed 'relatively' easily.)
Your focusing on that element i.e Twin and GSZ (and lesser extent Punishing Fire) and ignoring how I am also asking to compare Jace/DRS as part of the 'argument'.
The DRS and JTMS comparison misses the critical point that JTMS has never been legal in Modern and DRS was objectively the card that broke BGx in 2013 and early 2014. The bar to unban a card that was banned due to results is much higher than the bar to unban a card that was banned with few/no results. PF stifling aggro is a similar issue. GSZ is more open because it was banned with only one event of results and in the hypothetical scenario you suggested would be a reasonable unban idea to discuss. So would BBE.
Spiegal, the homogonizing argument is only made in reference to GSZ/Twin, and while I am saying DRS is comparable to Jace (self contained win condition etc. and (DRS) in combination with Veil stunts any creature deck that plays only 1 Creature a turn. Both are slow win conditions that take a couple turns to get going, and can be removed 'relatively' easily.)
Your focusing on that element i.e Twin and GSZ (and lesser extent Punishing Fire) and ignoring how I am also asking to compare Jace/DRS as part of the 'argument'.
The primary difference is that BGx is 20% (edit: using the list you quoted earlier) of the meta now, without DRS. If something happened over the next year that pushed BGx down to 5-6% of the meta, I would absolutely think something needed to change, either an unban or a ban.
The comparison falls apart because we actually do know what DRS did to the meta, whereas we don't know what Jace would do. The card hasn't actually been in modern, if I'm not mistaken.
I see the homogenization argument pop up every so often here and I always wondered whether Wizards cares more about it than the players.
By all standards cards such as Splinter Twin, Green Sun's Zenith and Stoneforge Mystic would homogenize a few decks but from what I've gathered people still want
to them unbanned.
White is so bad I think it could use SFM, with the added benefit of helping blue decks
I still don't think Jace helps fix blue's issues, with the added chance of being dangerous and a huge disaster for modern if it needs a reban. I truly think Jace will never see an unban until modern gets legacy level safety valves.
DSJ is the new hotness and the best deck in the format
Jund and Abzan are in the 3-4ish range, which are very reasonable numbers. Honestly, I think Jund drops even further in shares while DSJ continues to exist, if it's allowed to continue to exist.
White is so bad I think it could use SFM, with the added benefit of helping blue decks
I still don't think Jace helps fix blue's issues, with the added chance of being dangerous and a huge disaster for modern if it needs a reban. I truly think Jace will never see an unban until modern gets legacy level safety valves.
Well I do agree with what you said, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Wizards cares if decks become too homogenized, probably stemming from their desire to have Magic become an e-sport and appeal to a larger audience. It doesn't look good when you stream an event and all the blue decks were mostly different varieties of Splinter Twin. Now currently they have failed that in Standard, so who knows. If Modern is going to get less focus in favour of Standard I don't see why they should hold on to that premise.
I do not understand the comments about losing to Jace as being so unbearable.
Is it worse than double Guide into Eidolon?
Is it worse than Karn, Ulamog, Mindslaver?
Is it worse than Lanter Locks?
Is it worse than double Goyf beats when you lack hard removal after having your hand shredded?
8rack?
I'll never get why people have an anversion to losing 'certain ways'. I admit. I hated UW Collonade beats, but I've gotten to a point where I can see how its going, and if you have lost, actual or virtual, just scoop.
As soon as I'm back home I'll start grinding with it. Deck not ideal, has issues but it's good. The kind of deck that would improve brutally with 4 Counterspell. Not being able to play decent countermagic stinks big time.
I heard some people on reddit calling that deck the hitler of Modern. Just as they thought this was the case back in the day with the Revelation/Collonades deck in type 2. But hey, there are many people that are salty about heavy control decks and they don't want a Tier 1 control deck in the Modern meta.
Those would be the players who dont like their combos/tricks being interacted with.
I mean, you're wrong, something doesn't have to be done, WOTC isn't obligated to make Blue amazing in modern (Although I'd like to see blue help police the meta).
WOTC hasn't done anything about white for years.
Do I think Jace would be dangerous? Probably not, but I do think the risk is too great. I also think that if he isn't oppressive, blue continues to have the same problem. I simply don't see the upside.
Preordain/SFM is still my choice,
A preordain and real 2 mana counter-spell would also be a big deal. With standard being such a disaster, maybe WOTC will actually start printing good spells again.
Discard is definitely more powerful than permission, in Modern. Have we ever considered that? Is the question stronger permission, or weaker discard (or both)?
I'm not sure I understand what you are driving at here.
Yes, discard is better than permission in modern. But why would nerfing discard help anything?
Discard has the biggest impact early game and then it drops off. This is particularly helpful for proactive decks as they can disrupt cheaply early on but then have gotten into a winnable position by the time that discard's effectiveness drops off.
Permission in modern really forces you to choose your poison in a reactive deck--the most efficient counterspells work a lot like discard in the format: solid early plays that lose potency as the game progresses. However, a reactive control deck typically seeks to have the game go long, which actually works against such control elements. The more powerful counters, in contrast, leave you dead to rights in the early game. While discard is pretty solid against a reactive deck, weakening it won't solve this problem. (I know you will want to bring up deprive, which is a solid card, but the tempo loss is hurtful in the early game to a reactive control deck, doesn't solve the problem either).
Again, Im not necessarily calling to ban any discard. Im just asking the question. We tend to harp on permission, and how WotC doesnt want strong permission, and yet strong discard is equally disabling. Discard is very good early, and still good late when your opponent is top decking. Black has 3 very good discard spells. Blue has not as good permission. You need more permission cards to cover all of your bases compared to what discard needs. You can play around permission. Its very hard to play around discard. It just kind of happens.
That being said, Discard is important to combat combo and other gofish strategies. So Im not sure what to say. But its interesting to see people completely give a pass to strong discard (which is just proactive permission), and yet think counterspell is too strong.
Not to toot my own horn, but am curious on Blue Advocates view on this post I made. If GB/X was in a similar state and asked for Deathrite/GSZ/Punishing Fire back in particular how would you respond? What would were counter be to in some ways an aethestic similarity Deathrite-Jace, and GSZ (or Punishing Fire if you prefer)-Twin have.
Complete list of stats Wraith Made
Death Shadow Jund - 17 (13.3%)
Bant Eldrazi - 10 (7.8%)
Eldrazi Tron - 9 (7%)
Burn - 9 (7%)
Abzan - 6 (4.7%)
Dredge - 5 (3.9%)
Infect - 5 (3.9%)
Titanshift - 5 (3.9%)
Abzan Company - 4 (3.1%)
Merfolk - 4 (3.1%)
Affinity - 4 (3.1%)
Jund - 4 (3.1%)
Ad Nauseam - 4 (3.1%)
Revolt Zoo - 4 (3.1%)
8 Rack - 3 (2.3%)
Grixis Control - 3 (2.3%)
Amulet Titan - 2 (1.6%)
Bant Company - 2 (1.6%)
Breach Titan - 2 (1.6%)
Lantern Control - 2 (1.6%)
GB Tron - 2 (1.6%)
Goryo's Vengeance - 2 (1.6%)
RG Ponza - 2 (1.6%)
Eldrazi & Taxes - 1 (.8%)
Elves - 1 (.8%)
RW Prison - 1 (.8%)
Living End - 1 (.8%)
Esper Transcendent - 1 (.8%)
BTL Scapeshift - 1 (.8%)
GW Tron - 1 (.8%)
Jeskai Saheeli - 1 (.8%)
Naya Midrange - 1 (.8%)
Esper Delve - 1 (.8%)
BW Eldrazi - 1 (.8%)
RUG Scapeshift - 1 (.8%)
Grixis Delver - 1 (.8%)
GW Company - 1 (.8%)
Skred - 1 (.8%)
Mono-Green Ramp - 1 (.8%)
GR Tron - 1 (.8%)
UW Control - 1 (.8%)
--------
True Jund/Abzan number 10 Decks total
U-Control Decks 6 (UW Control, Transcedent, Saheeli and Grixis). If we start throwing Scapeshift decks in their the number increases, but let us ignore that because stretching.
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
DRS is a busted ass card, and Jund was averaging 20% plus meta-shares, DRS could beat every strategy, GY hate, ping creatures, kill mana dorks, play into a turn two LOTV. DRS>Splinter Twin (and it's not even close).
Green Sun Zenith is also a busted ass card, we're seeing a slightly less broken version of it in Jund right now and it's SO good, I can't imagine other decks playing it, it would smother blue control decks for sure, it'd honestly be the last straw for blue being viable in tier 2
Green Sun Zenith>Splinter Twin
Punishing Fire? Really dude? It would literally make creature aggro unplayable.
You're trying to turn it around and I think it's coming off like bad hyperbole more than you making a point
Bad vs Fast Aggro, and Self Contained Win Condition. Deathrite (in combination with Veil) kills decks that only play 1 Creature a turn
Twin is that it was banned for homogenizing Blue Based Deck (just as GSZ, well that and Toolboxing), and preventing experimentation.
I only bring up punishing fire because it was noted as suppressing certain kind of decks (tribal decks), just as twin suppressed decks that lack interaction/tap out T3.
Their are several differences, most notably the Mana cost is very difference. But the argument for why they are banned and why you could want them back (DRS can stay on list, and be fun to see a format or two with Jace in it, for all I care). But the argument I am making-asking how would you draw a distinction as U/X Player if GB/X was in the gutter and asked for those cards back.
(Mana Cost is the biggest difference imho)
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
All three of those cards you mentioned are fantastic in just about any point in the game, which I think is one of the important criterias on a cards power level
Twin was banned for homogenizing blue based decks, and guess what happened, instead of those shares being split into more blue bad decks, they got put into other categories and blue has suffered. Blue hasn't seen a tier 1 deck since the ban (and no, I'm not going to count Jeskai Nahiri's two months).
Prevent experimentation? I don't think so, what stops something like Death Shadow Jund from stopping experimenting, it runs 8 discards, an extra 2 to 3 collective brutality if you're a deck that does't like to interact at all
I just think you're going about asking your question in a really cryptic manner
My heart doesn't exactly break for players who are frustrated they need to interact to stop Splinter Twin, the format felt more interactive before it was banned.
Look at the first 24 decks on Mttgoldfish, 8 of those decks want to interact with you, but even of those 8 decks, only the GBx and Grixis decks want to interact, the others just throw in some mainboard interaction but kinda still do their own thing.
I'm fine and respect players wanting to play linear decks, or decks that have close to no interaction, but by all means, I'm not going to feel sorry for them if a deck beats them for not interacting
The thing is, there is no guaranteeing change will make the format better or bring in more players then it loses. People stopped playing during the Dig/Tcruise era, you have to be foolish to think people would step away if something any where near that comes back into the format, and I dont care what color combo either.
Better is subjective. As subjective as the different opinions of what Wotc should do to change the format to appease those certain people.
Exactly!! Then why worry about the ban list?
But there are people that will step away from the format if certain cards come off. we have no way of knowing the +/- in player change from those changes.
In the end its not about you or me or anyone else on this site, which I am glad of, its up to Wotc.
Let us say GB/x decks only had 3-4% of the meta total for around one year. And were utterly in the gutter for a variety of reasons, just like U/X is today.
But U/X Reactive/Permission decks were making up a total of 20% of the meta. So instead of asking for a ban from U/X deck is on top (for sake of discussion let us say Jace or Twin).
They asked for
Deathrite Shamen
Green Sun Zenith*
Punishing Fire
Because it would allow them to compete better vs Aggro decks (DRS and Fire), be a slow win condition that is interactable with (Deathrite, killable by every removal in format), and allows you access to silver bullet your deck (no clean comparison beside homogenizing deck akin to Twin.)
How would you argue that those two/three cards are fundamentally different than Jace/Twin, in terms of coming off the list or why they should remain banned? (Personally as I said in my above post first is Mana Cost, DRS is 1 Mana to Jace 4, and in regards to Punishing Fire vs Twin, they suppress in different ways. GSZ my view if Pod is banned so should GSZ, and Traverse (unless Traverse is shown over next couple months to fade back in obscurity.)
*GSZ is the weakest comparison here, but is the best one I could think of with 'homogenizing' GB/X decks like Twin did for U/X
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
The only time when U/X was around 20% was when we had Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time. So hell yeah, go ahead and unban Deathrite. I'd be all for it.
I think if some how Ux decks got the tools to compete in the current meta to the point where they were 20% while pushing GBx decks down to 3-4% meta share, I don't think it would be unreasonable for them to ask for stronger tools to compete. In this scenario, Ux decks have some sort of tool that GBx just can't keep up with. Having DRS could be the answer, depending on what Ux decks are working with. But this scenario is completely hypothetical given that we don't have those cards, nor do we know what those cards would be. I doubt unbanning Jace and/or preordain would have that sort of impact on the meta, especially given that GBx currently has the tools to fight both of those things. Twin + Jace could probably impact the meta that much, but that is such an unlikely possibility that who cares. Either way, in that scenario, GBx players asking for DRS or GSZ would not be unreasonable, especially if there was reason to believe that those unbanned cards would help their meta share without crushing the entire meta.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
I'd probably blame WOTC for making GBx so bad to begin with, because I don't think I could seriously advocate for any of those unbans, DRS beats up on too many things, his unban would be scarier to me than Jace, SFM or BBE.
I see where you're going with that argument, but I'm just having a difficult time envisioning it, because when it comes down to it GBx is just a pile of the best cards in the format, it would take something like an LOTV/Goyf ban to bump the archetype out of tier 1 (Although either ban would probably make it tier 3).
I already explained how I think those three cards are different from a Twin unban, they're just way above Twins power level. Those are legacy power level cards, Twin isn't.
You keep going back to the homogenizing aspect of it, but look at blue, they're all very different and they're all decks with poor results in the past half year, with middling results since the Twin ban. If the archetype has to be homogenized so be it, if you're competitive and in it to win, blue is just bad. Non Twin blue decks were actually better because it could prey on Twin and the fair decks that preyed on Twin
Your focusing on that element i.e Twin and GSZ (and lesser extent Punishing Fire) and ignoring how I am also asking to compare Jace/DRS as part of the 'argument'.
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
The DRS and JTMS comparison misses the critical point that JTMS has never been legal in Modern and DRS was objectively the card that broke BGx in 2013 and early 2014. The bar to unban a card that was banned due to results is much higher than the bar to unban a card that was banned with few/no results. PF stifling aggro is a similar issue. GSZ is more open because it was banned with only one event of results and in the hypothetical scenario you suggested would be a reasonable unban idea to discuss. So would BBE.
The primary difference is that BGx is 20% (edit: using the list you quoted earlier) of the meta now, without DRS. If something happened over the next year that pushed BGx down to 5-6% of the meta, I would absolutely think something needed to change, either an unban or a ban.
The comparison falls apart because we actually do know what DRS did to the meta, whereas we don't know what Jace would do. The card hasn't actually been in modern, if I'm not mistaken.
FWIW I think bbe could be unbanned now.
EDIT: source for Jace never being in modern.
By all standards cards such as Splinter Twin, Green Sun's Zenith and Stoneforge Mystic would homogenize a few decks but from what I've gathered people still want
to them unbanned.
I still don't think Jace helps fix blue's issues, with the added chance of being dangerous and a huge disaster for modern if it needs a reban. I truly think Jace will never see an unban until modern gets legacy level safety valves.
Jund and Abzan are in the 3-4ish range, which are very reasonable numbers. Honestly, I think Jund drops even further in shares while DSJ continues to exist, if it's allowed to continue to exist.
Well I do agree with what you said, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Wizards cares if decks become too homogenized, probably stemming from their desire to have Magic become an e-sport and appeal to a larger audience. It doesn't look good when you stream an event and all the blue decks were mostly different varieties of Splinter Twin. Now currently they have failed that in Standard, so who knows. If Modern is going to get less focus in favour of Standard I don't see why they should hold on to that premise.
Is it worse than double Guide into Eidolon?
Is it worse than Karn, Ulamog, Mindslaver?
Is it worse than Lanter Locks?
Is it worse than double Goyf beats when you lack hard removal after having your hand shredded?
8rack?
I'll never get why people have an anversion to losing 'certain ways'. I admit. I hated UW Collonade beats, but I've gotten to a point where I can see how its going, and if you have lost, actual or virtual, just scoop.
Spirits
What if he is too good (it'd be disastrous, why take this chance when modern as a whole is doing well?)
Nahiri was too slow for modern, and she's a fantastic card that just does't cut it
Jace probably incentivizes less fair players to keep playing fair decks
I just see more cons for a Jace unban than pro's.
If there is good prize support that seems reasonable (as in the prizes are modern masters packs) but if not then no that is rather unreasonable
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
He wont do anything huge long term to help blue I feel. but something needs to be done eventually.
decks playing:
none
Those would be the players who dont like their combos/tricks being interacted with.
decks playing:
none
WOTC hasn't done anything about white for years.
Do I think Jace would be dangerous? Probably not, but I do think the risk is too great. I also think that if he isn't oppressive, blue continues to have the same problem. I simply don't see the upside.
Preordain/SFM is still my choice,
A preordain and real 2 mana counter-spell would also be a big deal. With standard being such a disaster, maybe WOTC will actually start printing good spells again.
Again, Im not necessarily calling to ban any discard. Im just asking the question. We tend to harp on permission, and how WotC doesnt want strong permission, and yet strong discard is equally disabling. Discard is very good early, and still good late when your opponent is top decking. Black has 3 very good discard spells. Blue has not as good permission. You need more permission cards to cover all of your bases compared to what discard needs. You can play around permission. Its very hard to play around discard. It just kind of happens.
That being said, Discard is important to combat combo and other gofish strategies. So Im not sure what to say. But its interesting to see people completely give a pass to strong discard (which is just proactive permission), and yet think counterspell is too strong.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I mean, that's a bit steep then, but i suppose stores have to keep the doors open somehow
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Imagine a world where we dont have Thoughtseize, and IOK, and instead have to make use of all the more narrow discards.
Thats exactly where we are with counters.
Spirits