I would absolutely be fine if SFM, BBE and Jace were released together, hopefully Jace and SFM together wouldn't be too oppressive though
I don't think they would be, but I think I'm going to brew a UWx Stoneblade deck and test against my friend's Jund deck with BBE added to it, see how that goes.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I'd be all for a Preordain and SFM unbans at the same time as the approach similar issues from different vectors. But Preordain plus all three of those guys sounds super sketchy to me. Especially as Stoneforge and Jace could get pretty cozy.
Preordain-SFM (or separately), evaluate, then Jace-BBE if appropriate seems a lot better to me if one were set on all four of them. Assuming the data supported it.
Point taken about Jund. I'd be interested to see their performance for the same period. For comparison, Abzan was only around 3% of the field.
Final note: I think the "SFM makes Abzan better than Jund" argument has somemething to it, but really I don't think it's about Jund/Junk. I think it's a reflection of the fact that SFM would make red the worst color instead of white. (Very debatable of course because of Bolt/Path and all that, but I think despite being an oversimplification, there's something to it.) Red becoming the new worst color isn't really a good reason to keep a card banned; it's a good reason to give red better cards.
(Thisnis of course setting aside that red is very good at aggro.)
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Preordain-SFM (or separately), evaluate, then Jace-BBE if appropriate seems a lot better to me if one were set on all four of them. Assuming the data supported it.
That sounds good to me.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I'd be all for a Preordain and SFM unbans at the same time as the approach similar issues from different vectors. But Preordain plus all three of those guys sounds super sketchy to me. Especially as Stoneforge and Jace could get pretty cozy.
Preordain-SFM (or separately), evaluate, then Jace-BBE if appropriate seems a lot better to me if one were set on all four of them. Assuming the data supported it.
Point taken about Jund. I'd be interested to see their performance for the same period. For comparison, Abzan was only around 3% of the field.
Final note: I think the "SFM makes Abzan better than Jund" argument has somemething to it, but really I don't think it's about Jund/Junk. I think it's a reflection of the fact that SFM would make red the worst color instead of white. (Very debatable of course because of Bolt/Path and all that, but I think despite being an oversimplification, there's something to it.) Red becoming the new worst color isn't really a good reason to keep a card banned; it's a good reason to give red better cards.
(Thisnis of course setting aside that red is very good at aggro.)
I think you make a good point
Jace/BBE packaged would be better for control and midrange to balance out.
If SFM released, I do think Abzan would be better. In all honesty, I think Abzans going to surpass Jund, that black bolt is pretty huge.
ok so i am actually thoroughly annoyed, they already instituted the git probe ban on modo??? i was going to replace it with fatal push upon release, but i log in today and its just banned?
Now to be clear here... I never said dredge and reanimators were different decks. In fact, it wasnt even about that. I simply said they always seem to be enabling grave yard based things. Looking at this you can see graveyard decks have always been in standard (cept devotion, where it was in there but stunk.) since 2011. That's almost 6 years unbroken. And they still give tools to the graveyard based strats constantly. even if you ban all the dredgers, it doesnt stop the old shell of vengevine decks using satyr way finder and grizzly salvage.
My point is banning amalgamate wont solve it long term. Grave yard decks will continue to exist in one form or another in magic, because they keep printing that stuff for standard. Like ramp... They keep printing godly strong cards at the top end, or aggro, because they'll keep printing at least 1 dumbly fast card or an enabler, or midrange because they love their 3 and 4 mana over powered dudes.
next set likely has tomb raiders after all. Its better to control the top end of graveyard decks than every head that will keep showing up over the yards. I'm sure they even saw that troll allowed dredge to go over the top of hate cards for it, and decided thats how to make it more fair.
Have anyone even tested against dredge now? Its still strong but it doesnt even have a pulse after game 2/3 hate unlike before. Just use cage and kill off company too.
ok so i am actually thoroughly annoyed, they already instituted the git probe ban on modo??? i was going to replace it with fatal push upon release, but i log in today and its just banned?
Yeah they straight up emergency banned it there because they can. I suppose its to give them an extra 2 weeks to do data research before they ban more ***** 2 weeks after the gp.
Valakut is just fine. Ape is the offender here incase you missed that earlier.
Ad Nauseam is 2% of the meta, and cannot win before turn 4. If you can't interact either by discard or racing or counterspells, you deserve to lose to your own durlde.
Just to be clear because I've seen it a couple of times in this thread and I want to correct it. Ad Nauseam CAN win before turn 4. It has a line to a turn 3 win.
Turn 1: land drop
Turn 2: Land drop, pentad Prism (2 counters)
Turn 3: land drop, simian spirit guide. produce six mana (2 black, 1 white), cast angel's grace, cast ad nauseam. Draw your entire Deck. Exile the other three simians from your deck, cast lightning storm for a lethal amount of damage.
It's not perfect and it's far from consistent in my experience (which is anecdotal and i definitely have no hard data to show for it) but it is possible.
That said i find the call for SSG to be banned unwarrented until it provides a degenerate deck that has consistent results and breaks the turn 4 rule, which at this point doesn't exist in modern.
People seriously talking about banning Valakut... Banmania is here. Valakut is by no means breaking any rules. Simian Spirit Guide on the other hand...
Yes people are talking about valakut being banned. Why not? If it does well, it could be. That is Ban mania. Also assuming Spirit Guide, a card that sees less than 4 total percent in the meta should be banned... IS ALSO BAN MANIA
And your not to blame! Wizards has set the precedent. If its good, we will ban it.
Talk of banning Spirit Guide CERTAINLY isn't banmania. It makes no difference what it's metashare is. It's an instant speed, uncounterable (red) lotus petal. It's always involved with decks trying to do unfair and often unfun things like cheap out blood moon or cheap out chalice of the void, play an early reanimate of griselbrand, etc, etc.
The card is an enabler of bad magic and therefore is always the subject of this kind of discussion because it really limits design space.
People seriously talking about banning Valakut... Banmania is here. Valakut is by no means breaking any rules. Simian Spirit Guide on the other hand...
Yes people are talking about valakut being banned. Why not? If it does well, it could be. That is Ban mania. Also assuming Spirit Guide, a card that sees less than 4 total percent in the meta should be banned... IS ALSO BAN MANIA
And your not to blame! Wizards has set the precedent. If its good, we will ban it.
Talk of banning Spirit Guide CERTAINLY isn't banmania. It makes no difference what it's metashare is. It's an instant speed, uncounterable (red) lotus petal. It's always involved with decks trying to do unfair and often unfun things like cheap out blood moon or cheap out chalice of the void, play an early reanimate of griselbrand, etc, etc.
The card is an enabler of bad magic and therefore is always the subject of this kind of discussion because it really limits design space.
Bad magic is entirely subjective. I strongly believe Siege Rhino is "bad magic" and Lingering souls to be "bad magic" and all planeswalkers to be "bad magic". I don't care what you think is bad magic, just like you dont care what I think is bad magic. Also, **** that term, "bad magic" like what? Anyone can play magic however they want. It's almost as bad as the concept of "fair" magic. Oh, you died to Grapeshot? I died to Thoughtseize > Goyf > Liliana. It's not "fair" either way. We are way past the idea that playing 2/2s is what magic is about.
The only thing that matters is facts. Numbers. Otherwise we get people like you shoving Jund mirrors down our throats.
A card that has low meta impact in fringe decks is perfectly fine until proven otherwise. Also, which design space, specifically, is it limiting? Seems a whole world different from something like Birthing Pod and pretty lackluster as far as fast mana effects go. Take your stupid crusade and rhetoric elsewhere, and don't spout ***** without facts please.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Should have clarified. Thought it was 2 weeks they do another banned list change, now they do it every 5 after gps.
Banned and Restricted announcements will now be made both on the Monday after Standard-legal set Prereleases and five weeks after a Pro Tour, also on a Monday.
I assume they mean litterally 5 weeks after any gp, and can hit modern with it.
People seriously talking about banning Valakut... Banmania is here. Valakut is by no means breaking any rules. Simian Spirit Guide on the other hand...
Yes people are talking about valakut being banned. Why not? If it does well, it could be. That is Ban mania. Also assuming Spirit Guide, a card that sees less than 4 total percent in the meta should be banned... IS ALSO BAN MANIA
And your not to blame! Wizards has set the precedent. If its good, we will ban it.
Talk of banning Spirit Guide CERTAINLY isn't banmania. It makes no difference what it's metashare is. It's an instant speed, uncounterable (red) lotus petal. It's always involved with decks trying to do unfair and often unfun things like cheap out blood moon or cheap out chalice of the void, play an early reanimate of griselbrand, etc, etc.
The card is an enabler of bad magic and therefore is always the subject of this kind of discussion because it really limits design space.
Bad magic is entirely subjective. I strongly believe Siege Rhino is "bad magic" and Lingering souls to be "bad magic" and all planeswalkers to be "bad magic". I don't care what you think is bad magic, just like you dont care what I think is bad magic. Also, **** that term, "bad magic" like what? Anyone can play magic however they want. It's almost as bad as the concept of "fair" magic. Oh, you died to Grapeshot? I died to Thoughtseize > Goyf > Liliana. It's not "fair" either way. We are way past the idea that playing 2/2s is what magic is about.
The only thing that matters is facts. Numbers. Otherwise we get people like you shoving Jund mirrors down our throats.
A card that has low meta impact in fringe decks is perfectly fine until proven otherwise. Also, which design space, specifically, is it limiting? Seems a whole world different from something like Birthing Pod and pretty lackluster as far as fast mana effects go. Take your stupid crusade and rhetoric elsewhere, and don't spout ***** without facts please.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. And no one cares what you think "bad magic" is if you think all planeswalkers are bad magic.
People seriously talking about banning Valakut... Banmania is here. Valakut is by no means breaking any rules. Simian Spirit Guide on the other hand...
Yes people are talking about valakut being banned. Why not? If it does well, it could be. That is Ban mania. Also assuming Spirit Guide, a card that sees less than 4 total percent in the meta should be banned... IS ALSO BAN MANIA
And your not to blame! Wizards has set the precedent. If its good, we will ban it.
Talk of banning Spirit Guide CERTAINLY isn't banmania. It makes no difference what it's metashare is. It's an instant speed, uncounterable (red) lotus petal. It's always involved with decks trying to do unfair and often unfun things like cheap out blood moon or cheap out chalice of the void, play an early reanimate of griselbrand, etc, etc.
The card is an enabler of bad magic and therefore is always the subject of this kind of discussion because it really limits design space.
Bad magic is entirely subjective. I strongly believe Siege Rhino is "bad magic" and Lingering souls to be "bad magic" and all planeswalkers to be "bad magic". I don't care what you think is bad magic, just like you dont care what I think is bad magic. Also, **** that term, "bad magic" like what? Anyone can play magic however they want. It's almost as bad as the concept of "fair" magic. Oh, you died to Grapeshot? I died to Thoughtseize > Goyf > Liliana. It's not "fair" either way. We are way past the idea that playing 2/2s is what magic is about.
The only thing that matters is facts. Numbers. Otherwise we get people like you shoving Jund mirrors down our throats.
A card that has low meta impact in fringe decks is perfectly fine until proven otherwise. Also, which design space, specifically, is it limiting? Seems a whole world different from something like Birthing Pod and pretty lackluster as far as fast mana effects go. Take your stupid crusade and rhetoric elsewhere, and don't spout ***** without facts please.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. And no one cares what you think "bad magic" is if you think all planeswalkers are bad magic.
Planeswalkers, since their inception, have signaled a shift in design that I am not okay with. No one cares what you think "bad magic" is, because you think SSG should get banned. See how that works? The difference I support my argument with actual facts and statistics. You spouted garbage and refused to bring up any points I mentioned, including usage/prevalence %, turn 4 violation %, and asking you to explain which design space was being limited by SSG. So, there's that. You suck at arguing and you treat your opinion as fact, which it is definitely not.
Now, kindly, stop pushing agenda without factual basis other than what you think, which was the whole purpose of my post, top notch comprehension skills.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
I want to highlight this post because its the perfect example of why constant banning is bad:
Yes people are talking about valakut being banned. Why not? If it does well, it could be. That is Ban mania. Also assuming Spirit Guide, a card that sees less than 4 total percent in the meta should be banned... IS ALSO BAN MANIA
And your not to blame! Wizards has set the precedent. If its good, we will ban it.
Talk of banning Spirit Guide CERTAINLY isn't banmania. It makes no difference what it's metashare is. It's an instant speed, uncounterable (red) lotus petal. It's always involved with decks trying to do unfair and often unfun things like cheap out blood moon or cheap out chalice of the void, play an early reanimate of griselbrand, etc, etc.
The card is an enabler of bad magic and therefore is always the subject of this kind of discussion because it really limits design space.
Bad magic is entirely subjective. I strongly believe Siege Rhino is "bad magic" and Lingering souls to be "bad magic" and all planeswalkers to be "bad magic". I don't care what you think is bad magic, just like you dont care what I think is bad magic. Also, **** that term, "bad magic" like what? Anyone can play magic however they want. It's almost as bad as the concept of "fair" magic. Oh, you died to Grapeshot? I died to Thoughtseize > Goyf > Liliana. It's not "fair" either way. We are way past the idea that playing 2/2s is what magic is about.
The only thing that matters is facts. Numbers. Otherwise we get people like you shoving Jund mirrors down our throats.
A card that has low meta impact in fringe decks is perfectly fine until proven otherwise. Also, which design space, specifically, is it limiting? Seems a whole world different from something like Birthing Pod and pretty lackluster as far as fast mana effects go. Take your stupid crusade and rhetoric elsewhere, and don't spout ***** without facts please.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. And no one cares what you think "bad magic" is if you think all planeswalkers are bad magic.
Planeswalkers, since their inception, have signal a shift in design that I am not okay with. No one cares what you think "bad magic" is you think SSG should get banned. See how that works? The difference I support my argument with actual facts and statistics. You spouted *****.
The fact remains that you're pushing an agenda without factual basis other than what you think, which was the whole purpose of my post, top notch comprehension skills.
I did support it with facts. Perhaps you should read before making yourself look foolish?
People seriously talking about banning Valakut... Banmania is here. Valakut is by no means breaking any rules. Simian Spirit Guide on the other hand...
Yes people are talking about valakut being banned. Why not? If it does well, it could be. That is Ban mania. Also assuming Spirit Guide, a card that sees less than 4 total percent in the meta should be banned... IS ALSO BAN MANIA
And your not to blame! Wizards has set the precedent. If its good, we will ban it.
Talk of banning Spirit Guide CERTAINLY isn't banmania. It makes no difference what it's metashare is. It's an instant speed, uncounterable (red) lotus petal. It's always involved with decks trying to do unfair and often unfun things like cheap out blood moon or cheap out chalice of the void, play an early reanimate of griselbrand, etc, etc.
The card is an enabler of bad magic and therefore is always the subject of this kind of discussion because it really limits design space.
Bad magic is entirely subjective. I strongly believe Siege Rhino is "bad magic" and Lingering souls to be "bad magic" and all planeswalkers to be "bad magic". I don't care what you think is bad magic, just like you dont care what I think is bad magic. Also, **** that term, "bad magic" like what? Anyone can play magic however they want. It's almost as bad as the concept of "fair" magic. Oh, you died to Grapeshot? I died to Thoughtseize > Goyf > Liliana. It's not "fair" either way. We are way past the idea that playing 2/2s is what magic is about.
The only thing that matters is facts. Numbers. Otherwise we get people like you shoving Jund mirrors down our throats.
A card that has low meta impact in fringe decks is perfectly fine until proven otherwise. Also, which design space, specifically, is it limiting? Seems a whole world different from something like Birthing Pod and pretty lackluster as far as fast mana effects go. Take your stupid crusade and rhetoric elsewhere, and don't spout ***** without facts please.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. And no one cares what you think "bad magic" is if you think all planeswalkers are bad magic.
I can only hope that Wizards see things your way instead of just banning whatever people call broken.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern RGTron UGInfect URStorm WUBRAd Nauseam BRGrishoalbrand URGScapeshift WBGAbzan Company WUBRGAmulet Titan BRGLiving End WGBogles
I want to highlight this post because its the perfect example of why constant banning is bad:
Yes people are talking about valakut being banned. Why not? If it does well, it could be. That is Ban mania. Also assuming Spirit Guide, a card that sees less than 4 total percent in the meta should be banned... IS ALSO BAN MANIA
And your not to blame! Wizards has set the precedent. If its good, we will ban it.
Talk of banning Spirit Guide CERTAINLY isn't banmania. It makes no difference what it's metashare is. It's an instant speed, uncounterable (red) lotus petal. It's always involved with decks trying to do unfair and often unfun things like cheap out blood moon or cheap out chalice of the void, play an early reanimate of griselbrand, etc, etc.
The card is an enabler of bad magic and therefore is always the subject of this kind of discussion because it really limits design space.
Bad magic is entirely subjective. I strongly believe Siege Rhino is "bad magic" and Lingering souls to be "bad magic" and all planeswalkers to be "bad magic". I don't care what you think is bad magic, just like you dont care what I think is bad magic. Also, **** that term, "bad magic" like what? Anyone can play magic however they want. It's almost as bad as the concept of "fair" magic. Oh, you died to Grapeshot? I died to Thoughtseize > Goyf > Liliana. It's not "fair" either way. We are way past the idea that playing 2/2s is what magic is about.
The only thing that matters is facts. Numbers. Otherwise we get people like you shoving Jund mirrors down our throats.
A card that has low meta impact in fringe decks is perfectly fine until proven otherwise. Also, which design space, specifically, is it limiting? Seems a whole world different from something like Birthing Pod and pretty lackluster as far as fast mana effects go. Take your stupid crusade and rhetoric elsewhere, and don't spout ***** without facts please.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. And no one cares what you think "bad magic" is if you think all planeswalkers are bad magic.
I can only hope that Wizards see things your way instead of just banning whatever people call broken.
Agreed. But it has a lot to do with understanding what kind of cards promote diverse, fun, and competitive environments.
Talk of banning Spirit Guide CERTAINLY isn't banmania. It makes no difference what it's metashare is. It's an instant speed, uncounterable (red) lotus petal. It's always involved with decks trying to do unfair and often unfun things like cheap out blood moon or cheap out chalice of the void, play an early reanimate of griselbrand, etc, etc.
The card is an enabler of bad magic and therefore is always the subject of this kind of discussion because it really limits design space.
Bad magic is entirely subjective. I strongly believe Siege Rhino is "bad magic" and Lingering souls to be "bad magic" and all planeswalkers to be "bad magic". I don't care what you think is bad magic, just like you dont care what I think is bad magic. Also, **** that term, "bad magic" like what? Anyone can play magic however they want. It's almost as bad as the concept of "fair" magic. Oh, you died to Grapeshot? I died to Thoughtseize > Goyf > Liliana. It's not "fair" either way. We are way past the idea that playing 2/2s is what magic is about.
The only thing that matters is facts. Numbers. Otherwise we get people like you shoving Jund mirrors down our throats.
A card that has low meta impact in fringe decks is perfectly fine until proven otherwise. Also, which design space, specifically, is it limiting? Seems a whole world different from something like Birthing Pod and pretty lackluster as far as fast mana effects go. Take your stupid crusade and rhetoric elsewhere, and don't spout ***** without facts please.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. And no one cares what you think "bad magic" is if you think all planeswalkers are bad magic.
Planeswalkers, since their inception, have signal a shift in design that I am not okay with. No one cares what you think "bad magic" is you think SSG should get banned. See how that works? The difference I support my argument with actual facts and statistics. You spouted *****.
The fact remains that you're pushing an agenda without factual basis other than what you think, which was the whole purpose of my post, top notch comprehension skills.
I did support it with facts. Perhaps you should read before making yourself look foolish?
What facts? I see zero facts. Sure, it enables Blood Moon and Chalice and Ad Nauseam and Griselbrand and Through the Breach one turn earlier. Sure, you may not like any of that. No one cares what you like. I don't like being Thoughtseized. I don't like planeswalkers. I'm not rallying for their bans. And further on SSG, How frequently do those things happen? How prevalent are those decks? Are they winning? If so, what percentage of the time? On what turn? Are their answers to the things they are trying to do? What percentage of the meta are SSG decks collectively? Are they stifling format diversity? What design space do you claim SSG is limiting? In what way? Where is your evidence as such?
Banning things based on what anyone considers to be "fun" or "fair" or "bad magic" is the stupidest pile of garbage I've ever heard. So go on kid, I'll refute you at every turn because you only have nonsense.
I'll lay it out easy for you, pay attention.
Decks that play SSG: Ad Nauseam, sometimes Valakut, sometimes Skred, sometimes Griselbrand.
% of meta those decks occupy: approximately equal or less than 6% according to MTGTOP8.
Do they win events? Much less than non SSG decks.
How frequently? Griselbrand won one major event in Unified Modern. Skred won a GP. The other on record wins are MTGO leagues and locals.
Can they win before turn 4? Griselbrand varients and Ad Nauseam can, infrequently. Other two, no.
Are they stifling format diversity? 6% meta occupation of four different decks does not a stifling create.
Are their answers to what they are trying to do? Yes.
Do they violate turn 4 with frequency or consistency? No.
What design space is SSG limiting? I don't have a god damn clue.
So now what? You have something else to say? I don't think you do. I think you will try to tell me that Griselbrand is more consistent than it is, so I'll save myself the trouble and direct you to its tier 3 status. I think you'll spout more garbage about Blood Moon and Chalice being "bad magic" (still a stupid term), and being enabled by SSG. Turns out both of those cards are played in non-SSG decks as well. (Hello Tezz/Affinity)
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Should have clarified. Thought it was 2 weeks they do another banned list change, now they do it every 5 after gps.
Banned and Restricted announcements will now be made both on the Monday after Standard-legal set Prereleases and five weeks after a Pro Tour, also on a Monday.
I assume they mean litterally 5 weeks after any gp, and can hit modern with it.
You say they do it every 5 after GPs, the WotC quote says "five weeks after a Pro Tour". GP does not equal PT. What do you mean?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Bad magic is entirely subjective. I strongly believe Siege Rhino is "bad magic" and Lingering souls to be "bad magic" and all planeswalkers to be "bad magic". I don't care what you think is bad magic, just like you dont care what I think is bad magic. Also, **** that term, "bad magic" like what? Anyone can play magic however they want. It's almost as bad as the concept of "fair" magic. Oh, you died to Grapeshot? I died to Thoughtseize > Goyf > Liliana. It's not "fair" either way. We are way past the idea that playing 2/2s is what magic is about.
The only thing that matters is facts. Numbers. Otherwise we get people like you shoving Jund mirrors down our throats.
A card that has low meta impact in fringe decks is perfectly fine until proven otherwise. Also, which design space, specifically, is it limiting? Seems a whole world different from something like Birthing Pod and pretty lackluster as far as fast mana effects go. Take your stupid crusade and rhetoric elsewhere, and don't spout ***** without facts please.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. And no one cares what you think "bad magic" is if you think all planeswalkers are bad magic.
Planeswalkers, since their inception, have signal a shift in design that I am not okay with. No one cares what you think "bad magic" is you think SSG should get banned. See how that works? The difference I support my argument with actual facts and statistics. You spouted *****.
The fact remains that you're pushing an agenda without factual basis other than what you think, which was the whole purpose of my post, top notch comprehension skills.
I did support it with facts. Perhaps you should read before making yourself look foolish?
What facts? I see zero facts. Sure, it enables Blood Moon and Chalice and Ad Nauseam and Griselbrand and Through the Breach one turn earlier. Sure, you may not like any of that. No one cares what you like. I don't like being Thoughtseized. I don't like planeswalkers. I'm not rallying for their bans. And further on SSG, How frequently do those things happen? How prevalent are those decks? Are they winning? If so, what percentage of the time? On what turn? Are their answers to the things they are trying to do? What percentage of the meta are SSG decks collectively? Are they stifling format diversity? What design space do you claim SSG is limiting? In what way? Where is your evidence as such?
Banning things based on what anyone considers to be "fun" or "fair" or "bad magic" is the stupidest pile of garbage I've ever heard. So go on kid, I'll refute you at every turn because you only have nonsense.
I'll lay it out easy for you, pay attention.
Decks that play SSG: Ad Nauseam, sometimes Valakut, sometimes Skred, sometimes Griselbrand.
% of meta those decks occupy: approximately equal or less than 6% according to MTGTOP8.
Do they win events? Much less than non SSG decks.
How frequently? Griselbrand won one major event in Unified Modern. Skred won a GP. The other on record wins are MTGO leagues and locals.
Can they win before turn 4? Griselbrand varients and Ad Nauseam can, infrequently. Other two, no.
Are they stifling format diversity? 6% meta occupation of four different decks does not a stifling create.
Are their answers to what they are trying to do? Yes.
Do they violate turn 4 with frequency or consistency? No.
What design space is SSG limiting? I don't have a god damn clue.
So now what? You have something else to say? I don't think you do. I think you will try to tell me that Griselbrand is more consistent than it is, so I'll save myself the trouble and direct you to its tier 3 status. I think you'll spout more garbage about Blood Moon and Chalice being "bad magic" (still a stupid term), I'll raise you that Blood Moon and Chalice are both meta calls and necessary things to have in this format to combat the likes of Tron/Infect.
Go on dude. Keep trying.
Wow, wish you would actually use FACTS to justify your opinion, like I did.
No one cares if you don't like getting thoughtseized or don't like planeswalkers. And your reasoning is absurdly lacking any logical consistancy. Please cease and desist your passive aggressive attacks. No need to reply to me. I am here for LOGICAL conversation and discussion. Not flaming and pushy opinions. Have a nice day.
Should have clarified. Thought it was 2 weeks they do another banned list change, now they do it every 5 after gps.
Banned and Restricted announcements will now be made both on the Monday after Standard-legal set Prereleases and five weeks after a Pro Tour, also on a Monday.
I assume they mean litterally 5 weeks after any gp, and can hit modern with it.
You say they do it every 5 after GPs, the WotC quote says "five weeks after a Pro Tour". GP does not equal PT. What do you mean?
Yep. I'm done. = )
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I want to highlight this post because its the perfect example of why constant banning is bad:
Yes people are talking about valakut being banned. Why not? If it does well, it could be. That is Ban mania. Also assuming Spirit Guide, a card that sees less than 4 total percent in the meta should be banned... IS ALSO BAN MANIA
And your not to blame! Wizards has set the precedent. If its good, we will ban it.
Talk of banning Spirit Guide CERTAINLY isn't banmania. It makes no difference what it's metashare is. It's an instant speed, uncounterable (red) lotus petal. It's always involved with decks trying to do unfair and often unfun things like cheap out blood moon or cheap out chalice of the void, play an early reanimate of griselbrand, etc, etc.
The card is an enabler of bad magic and therefore is always the subject of this kind of discussion because it really limits design space.
I'm a little confused. I certainly see you're argument for the first paragraph but how does Simian Spirit Guide limit design space? What do you mean by that?
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I don't think they would be, but I think I'm going to brew a UWx Stoneblade deck and test against my friend's Jund deck with BBE added to it, see how that goes.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Preordain-SFM (or separately), evaluate, then Jace-BBE if appropriate seems a lot better to me if one were set on all four of them. Assuming the data supported it.
Point taken about Jund. I'd be interested to see their performance for the same period. For comparison, Abzan was only around 3% of the field.
Final note: I think the "SFM makes Abzan better than Jund" argument has somemething to it, but really I don't think it's about Jund/Junk. I think it's a reflection of the fact that SFM would make red the worst color instead of white. (Very debatable of course because of Bolt/Path and all that, but I think despite being an oversimplification, there's something to it.) Red becoming the new worst color isn't really a good reason to keep a card banned; it's a good reason to give red better cards.
(Thisnis of course setting aside that red is very good at aggro.)
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
That sounds good to me.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I think you make a good point
Jace/BBE packaged would be better for control and midrange to balance out.
If SFM released, I do think Abzan would be better. In all honesty, I think Abzans going to surpass Jund, that black bolt is pretty huge.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Scars-Inn: Solarflare
Inn-RtR: Human Reanimator and Reanimator
RtR-Theros: Eh, there were whip decks, but they were nothing against devotion.
Theros-Khans:Whip decks
Khans- Battle:Rally decks
Battle-Now:Haunted dead/Prized Amalagamate decks and Colossus decks
Now to be clear here... I never said dredge and reanimators were different decks. In fact, it wasnt even about that. I simply said they always seem to be enabling grave yard based things. Looking at this you can see graveyard decks have always been in standard (cept devotion, where it was in there but stunk.) since 2011. That's almost 6 years unbroken. And they still give tools to the graveyard based strats constantly. even if you ban all the dredgers, it doesnt stop the old shell of vengevine decks using satyr way finder and grizzly salvage.
My point is banning amalgamate wont solve it long term. Grave yard decks will continue to exist in one form or another in magic, because they keep printing that stuff for standard. Like ramp... They keep printing godly strong cards at the top end, or aggro, because they'll keep printing at least 1 dumbly fast card or an enabler, or midrange because they love their 3 and 4 mana over powered dudes.
next set likely has tomb raiders after all. Its better to control the top end of graveyard decks than every head that will keep showing up over the yards. I'm sure they even saw that troll allowed dredge to go over the top of hate cards for it, and decided thats how to make it more fair.
Have anyone even tested against dredge now? Its still strong but it doesnt even have a pulse after game 2/3 hate unlike before. Just use cage and kill off company too.
Yeah they straight up emergency banned it there because they can. I suppose its to give them an extra 2 weeks to do data research before they ban more ***** 2 weeks after the gp.
Just to be clear because I've seen it a couple of times in this thread and I want to correct it. Ad Nauseam CAN win before turn 4. It has a line to a turn 3 win.
Turn 1: land drop
Turn 2: Land drop, pentad Prism (2 counters)
Turn 3: land drop, simian spirit guide. produce six mana (2 black, 1 white), cast angel's grace, cast ad nauseam. Draw your entire Deck. Exile the other three simians from your deck, cast lightning storm for a lethal amount of damage.
It's not perfect and it's far from consistent in my experience (which is anecdotal and i definitely have no hard data to show for it) but it is possible.
That said i find the call for SSG to be banned unwarrented until it provides a degenerate deck that has consistent results and breaks the turn 4 rule, which at this point doesn't exist in modern.
Talk of banning Spirit Guide CERTAINLY isn't banmania. It makes no difference what it's metashare is. It's an instant speed, uncounterable (red) lotus petal. It's always involved with decks trying to do unfair and often unfun things like cheap out blood moon or cheap out chalice of the void, play an early reanimate of griselbrand, etc, etc.
The card is an enabler of bad magic and therefore is always the subject of this kind of discussion because it really limits design space.
Bad magic is entirely subjective. I strongly believe Siege Rhino is "bad magic" and Lingering souls to be "bad magic" and all planeswalkers to be "bad magic". I don't care what you think is bad magic, just like you dont care what I think is bad magic. Also, **** that term, "bad magic" like what? Anyone can play magic however they want. It's almost as bad as the concept of "fair" magic. Oh, you died to Grapeshot? I died to Thoughtseize > Goyf > Liliana. It's not "fair" either way. We are way past the idea that playing 2/2s is what magic is about.
The only thing that matters is facts. Numbers. Otherwise we get people like you shoving Jund mirrors down our throats.
A card that has low meta impact in fringe decks is perfectly fine until proven otherwise. Also, which design space, specifically, is it limiting? Seems a whole world different from something like Birthing Pod and pretty lackluster as far as fast mana effects go. Take your stupid crusade and rhetoric elsewhere, and don't spout ***** without facts please.
Should have clarified. Thought it was 2 weeks they do another banned list change, now they do it every 5 after gps.
I assume they mean litterally 5 weeks after any gp, and can hit modern with it.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. And no one cares what you think "bad magic" is if you think all planeswalkers are bad magic.
Planeswalkers, since their inception, have signaled a shift in design that I am not okay with. No one cares what you think "bad magic" is, because you think SSG should get banned. See how that works? The difference I support my argument with actual facts and statistics. You spouted garbage and refused to bring up any points I mentioned, including usage/prevalence %, turn 4 violation %, and asking you to explain which design space was being limited by SSG. So, there's that. You suck at arguing and you treat your opinion as fact, which it is definitely not.
Now, kindly, stop pushing agenda without factual basis other than what you think, which was the whole purpose of my post, top notch comprehension skills.
I did support it with facts. Perhaps you should read before making yourself look foolish?
I can only hope that Wizards see things your way instead of just banning whatever people call broken.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Agreed. But it has a lot to do with understanding what kind of cards promote diverse, fun, and competitive environments.
What facts? I see zero facts. Sure, it enables Blood Moon and Chalice and Ad Nauseam and Griselbrand and Through the Breach one turn earlier. Sure, you may not like any of that. No one cares what you like. I don't like being Thoughtseized. I don't like planeswalkers. I'm not rallying for their bans. And further on SSG, How frequently do those things happen? How prevalent are those decks? Are they winning? If so, what percentage of the time? On what turn? Are their answers to the things they are trying to do? What percentage of the meta are SSG decks collectively? Are they stifling format diversity? What design space do you claim SSG is limiting? In what way? Where is your evidence as such?
Banning things based on what anyone considers to be "fun" or "fair" or "bad magic" is the stupidest pile of garbage I've ever heard. So go on kid, I'll refute you at every turn because you only have nonsense.
I'll lay it out easy for you, pay attention.
Decks that play SSG: Ad Nauseam, sometimes Valakut, sometimes Skred, sometimes Griselbrand.
% of meta those decks occupy: approximately equal or less than 6% according to MTGTOP8.
Do they win events? Much less than non SSG decks.
How frequently? Griselbrand won one major event in Unified Modern. Skred won a GP. The other on record wins are MTGO leagues and locals.
Can they win before turn 4? Griselbrand varients and Ad Nauseam can, infrequently. Other two, no.
Are they stifling format diversity? 6% meta occupation of four different decks does not a stifling create.
Are their answers to what they are trying to do? Yes.
Do they violate turn 4 with frequency or consistency? No.
What design space is SSG limiting? I don't have a god damn clue.
So now what? You have something else to say? I don't think you do. I think you will try to tell me that Griselbrand is more consistent than it is, so I'll save myself the trouble and direct you to its tier 3 status. I think you'll spout more garbage about Blood Moon and Chalice being "bad magic" (still a stupid term), and being enabled by SSG. Turns out both of those cards are played in non-SSG decks as well. (Hello Tezz/Affinity)
Keep trying.
You say they do it every 5 after GPs, the WotC quote says "five weeks after a Pro Tour". GP does not equal PT. What do you mean?
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Wow, wish you would actually use FACTS to justify your opinion, like I did.
No one cares if you don't like getting thoughtseized or don't like planeswalkers. And your reasoning is absurdly lacking any logical consistancy. Please cease and desist your passive aggressive attacks. No need to reply to me. I am here for LOGICAL conversation and discussion. Not flaming and pushy opinions. Have a nice day.
Yep. I'm done. = )
I'm a little confused. I certainly see you're argument for the first paragraph but how does Simian Spirit Guide limit design space? What do you mean by that?