...is not found in any winning lists, besides Valakut. WEIRD
lol I went to fact check this, and, of the three decks that run SSG, Valakut has more meta% than Griselbrand and Ad Nauseam combined. ITS ALMOST LIKE YOURE USING BANMANIA TO PUSH YOUR AGENDA BUT YOU WOULD NEVER...
Do you consider or find Scapeshift decks too oppressive? I don't think so outside of Breach lists - and monkey is there the biggest offender. If player is able to tap out and draw his whole library he will have 3-4 free mana thanks to that ape and Manamorphose and that is broken if something.
...is not found in any winning lists, besides Valakut. WEIRD
lol I went to fact check this, and, of the three decks that run SSG, Valakut has more meta% than Griselbrand and Ad Nauseam combined. ITS ALMOST LIKE YOURE USING BANMANIA TO PUSH YOUR AGENDA BUT YOU WOULD NEVER...
Do you consider or find Scapeshift decks too oppressive? I don't think so outside of Breach lists - and monkey is there the biggest offender. If player is able to tap out and draw his whole library he will have 3-4 free mana thanks to that ape and Manamorphose and that is broken if something.
I don't think Valakut decks, at 4% of the meta, are oppressive. I especially do not think that Griselbrand and Adnauseam at collective sub 3% of the meta are oppressive. Anyone who says otherwise is a blatant troll. How a deck wins is far less important than the frequency of winning tournaments. Take your anti combo bias back to Standard, please.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Valakut is just fine. Ape is the offender here incase you missed that earlier.
What, exactly, is it offending? Because all numbers say that it isn't.
Here, I'll help you bro, make it real easy.
Valakut is 4% of the meta, nowhere near egregious enough to warrant any ban. All SSG is turn Through the Breach into a t4 instead of t5 play. Pretty sure you can handle that.
Ad Nauseam is 2% of the meta, and cannot win before turn 4. If you can't interact either by discard or racing or counterspells, you deserve to lose to your own durlde.
Griselbrand is less than 1% of the meta and not all versions even run SSG. It's also the most inconsistent pile in the format and is weak to everything Ad Nauseam is weak too.
So, unless you have some sort of argument other than "FACK MONKEE FAST MANA GGGGGGGG" then, kindly, shut up.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Here`s my current situation. I`m pondering what deck to pick up if my Temur deck turns out to be uncompetitive after the Probe ban. I had some deck in the back of my mind as exit strategies if the meta shifted more hostile towards Temur. Those decks were UR Prowess, Jeskai Ascension and UG Infect. All three got hit by the Probe ban. UG Infect should still be competitive as far as I can tell, but that means that it can still get hit by a ban later. I`m also interested in Grixis Goryo/Breach and TitanBreach, but from what I`ve heard, they both rely on SSG, which is also a possible ban target. I kinda like Affinity too, but it won`t be good if Opal gets hit.
This is it. The ban paranoia has finally caught hold of me. I`m afraid to get into any of the decks I`m interested in. If Temur is ruined for me, I honestly don`t know what to do in my favourite format.
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Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Here`s my current situation. I`m pondering what deck to pick up if my Temur deck turns out to be uncompetitive after the Probe ban. I had some deck in the back of my mind as exit strategies if the meta shifted more hostile towards Temur. Those decks were UR Prowess, Jeskai Ascension and UG Infect. All three got hit by the Probe ban. UG Infect should still be competitive as far as I can tell, but that means that it can still get hit by a ban later. I`m also interested in Grixis Goryo/Breach and TitanBreach, but from what I`ve heard, they both rely on SSG, which is also a possible ban target. I kinda like Affinity too, but it won`t be good if Opal gets hit.
This is it. The ban paranoia has finally caught hold of me. I`m afraid to get into any of the decks I`m interested in. If Temur is ruined for me, I honestly don`t know what to do in my favourite format.
Sell your stuff and buy Legacy. This format is turning into a husk of what it once was.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
i played modern since its born, leaving legacy cause it was becoming less and less played where i live. I loved it, it had a lot of different and charismatic decks, like pod, twin, tron, jund, infect etc. I hoped they took the road of: UNBAN powerfull cards, print powerfull treat and powerfull answers. But they kept banning cards i loved, and printing only treats without good answers.
Banning is removing, removing cards is removing decks. Modern IMO lost its essence, its soul, it's became a rotating format thanks to the bans. Not what i was used to get into. I passed from playing every week to play every month, and now i played once every 6 months.
You cant balance a format with bans, there will allways be a best card. You banned golgari grave troll and made dredge bad? here it comes abzan tier 0 20%. Another ban to it? here it comes the "put your next deck" with another high percentage. If you print policing cards and do not ban everything, then you can have answers to certain decks. You could still see decks rotating, but that would be the meta adjusting itself.
Anyway bye bye modern, i sold my jund deck i had since 6 years, and gained so much that i don't even care. It wasnt even the jund deck i began with, it was a deformed jund without the charismatic cards i wanted to start with. I won't play any official format, unless they'll start to bring back the modern to what they told us. I'm playing for fun since a lot of time, so i can play the cards i want.
(BTW i'd unban all the cards in modern, BAN only the mistakes like skullclamp, leave the format thrive for one year, telling THIS to the people, and then BAN those broken cards that made certain decks broken, all of this with updated communication with the community).
Here`s my current situation. I`m pondering what deck to pick up if my Temur deck turns out to be uncompetitive after the Probe ban. I had some deck in the back of my mind as exit strategies if the meta shifted more hostile towards Temur. Those decks were UR Prowess, Jeskai Ascension and UG Infect. All three got hit by the Probe ban. UG Infect should still be competitive as far as I can tell, but that means that it can still get hit by a ban later. I`m also interested in Grixis Goryo/Breach and TitanBreach, but from what I`ve heard, they both rely on SSG, which is also a possible ban target. I kinda like Affinity too, but it won`t be good if Opal gets hit.
This is it. The ban paranoia has finally caught hold of me. I`m afraid to get into any of the decks I`m interested in. If Temur is ruined for me, I honestly don`t know what to do in my favourite format.
Sell your stuff and buy Legacy. This format is turning into a husk of what it once was.
The most tempting part about that proposition is that Temur Delver is a legitimate Legacy deck. I can do pretty much what I want to be doing in Modern. The best league where I live is Modern though, and I`ve specialized in Modern for years while I`ve barely dipped my toe into Legacy, so it will feel like giving up on a lot of experience and expertise. And buying blue duals sure as hell isn`t tempting either.
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When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Here`s my current situation. I`m pondering what deck to pick up if my Temur deck turns out to be uncompetitive after the Probe ban. I had some deck in the back of my mind as exit strategies if the meta shifted more hostile towards Temur. Those decks were UR Prowess, Jeskai Ascension and UG Infect. All three got hit by the Probe ban. UG Infect should still be competitive as far as I can tell, but that means that it can still get hit by a ban later. I`m also interested in Grixis Goryo/Breach and TitanBreach, but from what I`ve heard, they both rely on SSG, which is also a possible ban target. I kinda like Affinity too, but it won`t be good if Opal gets hit.
This is it. The ban paranoia has finally caught hold of me. I`m afraid to get into any of the decks I`m interested in. If Temur is ruined for me, I honestly don`t know what to do in my favourite format.
Sell your stuff and buy Legacy. This format is turning into a husk of what it once was.
The most tempting part about that proposition is that Temur Delver is a legitimate Legacy deck. I can do pretty much what I want to be doing in Modern. The best league where I live is Modern though, and I`ve specialized in Modern for years while I`ve barely dipped my toe into Legacy, so it will feel like giving up on a lot of experience and expertise. And buying blue duals sure as hell isn`t tempting either.
There's always the Chinese. RUG Delver is spendy, but UR less so. One step at a time.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Here`s my current situation. I`m pondering what deck to pick up if my Temur deck turns out to be uncompetitive after the Probe ban. I had some deck in the back of my mind as exit strategies if the meta shifted more hostile towards Temur. Those decks were UR Prowess, Jeskai Ascension and UG Infect. All three got hit by the Probe ban. UG Infect should still be competitive as far as I can tell, but that means that it can still get hit by a ban later. I`m also interested in Grixis Goryo/Breach and TitanBreach, but from what I`ve heard, they both rely on SSG, which is also a possible ban target. I kinda like Affinity too, but it won`t be good if Opal gets hit.
This is it. The ban paranoia has finally caught hold of me. I`m afraid to get into any of the decks I`m interested in. If Temur is ruined for me, I honestly don`t know what to do in my favourite format.
Sell your stuff and buy Legacy. This format is turning into a husk of what it once was.
The most tempting part about that proposition is that Temur Delver is a legitimate Legacy deck. I can do pretty much what I want to be doing in Modern. The best league where I live is Modern though, and I`ve specialized in Modern for years while I`ve barely dipped my toe into Legacy, so it will feel like giving up on a lot of experience and expertise. And buying blue duals sure as hell isn`t tempting either.
No. Just no. Remember the talk I had in here with Jordan(Boisvert)? Gitaxian Probe is banned yes, but as he said, they ARE going to give you Preordain. Just wait for it. 5 weeks. It IS coming.
I think that if they wait five weeks and then give me a replacement for Probe, they are completely insane. Five weeks is more than enough time to rage quit and sell everything. I`m not feeling it. (But I will keep trying to force RUG for a while anyway)
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Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
A lot of people seem to be confused about what people are arguing here.
On one side people are saying "Modern format was bad and needed these bans!"
The other side is saying "The modern format was bad BECAUSE IT CAN'T POLICE ITSELF and thus wizards keeps having to ban stuff, and we dont like that ban everything mentality."
Yes, and I've heard those "police" people complaining for a long time and keep asking them what is this special card (or cards) that they want wizards to make or insert into the card pool. No takers on what that card is exactly. Just random complaining that the police cards aren't there. Tell us what they are and perhaps we can discuss them?
It's not like Counterspell would have policed these decks. Mana Leak is countering all the same cards at an easier mana cost on T2-T3 so it wouldn't be policing any of these fast kills.
Preytell what are these specific police cards that would have stopped the T2-4 kill decks?
These cards have been discussed dozens of times. If you haven't seen them then you simply haven't been looking.
They include many things. For a while Innocent Blood was chief among them. But now we have Fatal Push, which likely answers that space.
Better non-basic land hate. Something between the power levels of what we currently have in Modern and Wasteland.
And yes, Counterspell and other cheaper and efficient counters. The fact that Counterspell and Mana Leak hit the same things in the fast aggressive decks is completely irrelevant. Control and Midrange decks already have positive matchups against those fast linear decks so it doesn't matter whatsoever there. But control and midrange decks have HORRID matchups against the big-mana decks like RG Breach/Valakut, Eldrazi, and Tron. Those decks can pay for Mana Leak multiple times over but Counterspell would be a huge positive for fair control and midrange decks to have a fighting chance there.
When fast linear decks are dominant that means they're preying on slower, rampy decks. Not midrange and control.
Interesting that you saw they've been discussed dozens of times but still can't list an actual card and I said don't mention counterspell because it doesn't address the problem of fast linear which is what the complaint is about. The big mana decks SHOULD be able to have good match-ups too. You can't seriously hope to have "all the answers" good stuff.dec
if their aim is to slow down the modern format to a 4th turn kill..
why, instead of banning the core cards of the fastest decks, don't they use the Legacy banlist starting from the 8th edition?
With every deck fastening, every deck will be slowed down.
The more opportunities, the best interactions to keep everyone in check.
Do you have real blue spells? I have Bloodbraid Elf and Artifact Lands, or a combo breaker.
Do you have graveyard-based deck? I have Deathrite Shaman.
Who's fastest? You in establishing control, with hard choices, or me in swinging in?
Modern today seems a solitaire game, with low to none interaction and hardcore lists that have very few flex spots to be changed during sideboarding.
The original modern banlist was decided without actual feedback; it wasn't even close to the Extended's, from which they could have learned something.
Now it's tuned according to tournaments results and decks' popularity, which is ok, but it is not fun.
Look at the Tier 1 section: all of the decks are aggro, or in the slower case, midrange. No real control, nor combo.
Maybe this have been already discussed zillion of times, but I want to know your opinion after this ban.
Modern often looked like a solitaire. Now, though, with Fatal Push coming our way and all of the hyper aggro decks nerfed or banned, the format will become once again very interactive and will be slowed down. We shall wait and get some results on our hands to be certain though.
All the cards in the banlist are banned for a specific reason.
One of: Preordain, Stoneforge Mystic, or Jace, The Mind Sculptor are the likely unban for the foreseeable future.
The solution you are proposing has so many problems. Who could fight a Jeskai StoneBlade Twin deck, with Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, the mind Sculptor, Ponder, Preordain, Ancestral Vision, Cryptic Command, etc?
Jund with DRS?
Pod with all that stuff?
Elves with Glimpse Of nature? Hypergenesis combos?
Super strong affinity?
Amulet Bloom in the format once again?
Can't be done. Sorry. Modern is not legacy. We need real solutions.
Miracles, Eldrazi, and storm as well. And Post. It's actually a pretty diverse format, with a lot of police decks. Worth a shot.
if their aim is to slow down the modern format to a 4th turn kill..
why, instead of banning the core cards of the fastest decks, don't they use the Legacy banlist starting from the 8th edition?
With every deck fastening, every deck will be slowed down.
The more opportunities, the best interactions to keep everyone in check.
Do you have real blue spells? I have Bloodbraid Elf and Artifact Lands, or a combo breaker.
Do you have graveyard-based deck? I have Deathrite Shaman.
Who's fastest? You in establishing control, with hard choices, or me in swinging in?
Modern today seems a solitaire game, with low to none interaction and hardcore lists that have very few flex spots to be changed during sideboarding.
The original modern banlist was decided without actual feedback; it wasn't even close to the Extended's, from which they could have learned something.
Now it's tuned according to tournaments results and decks' popularity, which is ok, but it is not fun.
Look at the Tier 1 section: all of the decks are aggro, or in the slower case, midrange. No real control, nor combo.
Maybe this have been already discussed zillion of times, but I want to know your opinion after this ban.
Modern often looked like a solitaire. Now, though, with Fatal Push coming our way and all of the hyper aggro decks nerfed or banned, the format will become once again very interactive and will be slowed down. We shall wait and get some results on our hands to be certain though.
All the cards in the banlist are banned for a specific reason.
One of: Preordain, Stoneforge Mystic, or Jace, The Mind Sculptor are the likely unban for the foreseeable future.
The solution you are proposing has so many problems. Who could fight a Jeskai StoneBlade Twin deck, with Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, the mind Sculptor, Ponder, Preordain, Ancestral Vision, Cryptic Command, etc?
Jund with DRS?
Pod with all that stuff?
Elves with Glimpse Of nature? Hypergenesis combos?
Super strong affinity?
Amulet Bloom in the format once again?
Can't be done. Sorry. Modern is not legacy. We need real solutions.
Miracles, Eldrazi, and storm as well. And Post. It's actually a pretty diverse format, with a lot of police decks. Worth a shot.
No Ban Modern is actually a pretty sweet format. Last time I checked into it was before Eldrazi happened though. At the time, the best decks were Hypergeneis, PyroClamp, Stoneblade, Elves, Dredge, DnT and Tezz
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
While I should note I'm not a Dredge player and only played infect that uses Probe I do agree completely with the bans and I think we should look more closely at the ideas behind them instead of the actual cards that got banned.
The banning of GGT is fine, as I believe the deck is too strong at the moment and requires all other decks to devote sideboard or even mainboard space to hate it out. This creates the lottery that we all know (and hopefully hate). The thing I actually like here is the fact they do ban a card that they unbanned. They don't test for modern, ok. But even if they did, how will their, probably small, test team compare to the rest of the modern community that devotes a lot of time on the intricate workings of the deck where the card slots into? I believe there is merrit in unbanning cards and having the 'real world' test them, if they are fine they are fine (AV), sometimes they are fine until other cards come along (GGT). While this means certain decks will be moving in and out of playability there is a deeper problem why the ban announcement is always scary; loss of investments.
A lot of the cards in modern that are considered 'staples' are expensive cards, mostly because of high demand vs low availability. This seems to be the case with the Gitaxian Probe ban as well, it's not that people don't understand the card needed to go but the fact that decks that they invested in are now (in their eyes) obsolete. I think there would be a lot less grumbling if we had decks of 50 euro instead of 10 to 20-fold the price. This then comes back once again to the reprint policy of Wizards. It's now somewhat better because they invented inventions but hopefully more reprints are incoming. Reasoning from my own view, I'm now hesitant to buy into a deck that I think will get banned in half a year because of the investment, if it was only 50 euros for half a year of playing a deck you like and being able to have the cards at hand for other strategies or selling them with a 50% loss would make a world of difference in my own opinion.
While the bans (especially the poster spaghetti of a set) in Standard are really scary (what the hell is R&D doing) I think the design of Fatal Push is spot on and a perfect example of ways to get cards into eternal formats without affecting the Standard format. With the fetch lands being the prime enabler of the card and them not being in standard you create a card that is ok in standard but a really good answer in Modern. Hopefully we will get more of these well-designed cards soon, however it's always difficult to get a card that impacts all formats in the way you want it to, especially an answer-all card that control decks are in need of.
I play dredge and I have to admit GGT ability plus dredge 6 is really awesome. But if you look at tournament result it never really hit the top 8 alot comparing to the percentage of usage. It was powerful enougn that although not hitting the top 8 it make sure not just 1-4 decks consistently makes the top 8. You may call me bias but GGT and dredge specifically make modern diverse that it was able to police the daily MTGO
You're high as hell, dredge didn't police *****
it devolved the format and forced players to playing fast decks
It did force people to reserve 3-4 side board slot thus making decks like GW tron, grixis control and latern control valuable. I may be wrong with the word "police" but it did create diversity from what the tournament result says. Again I'll emphasize that it did not dominate. It didn't usually did even make top 8 granting it has been utilized alot.
Forcing players to side in 3 to 4 cards is NOT policing a meta, it's warping a meta.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
So what I distill from all the reactions is (mostly) an agreement with the bans but problems with the overall structure of modern and the cards that get printed to support it (and therefore the need for bans that might not be needed with introduction of better cards).
I think that overall, the unbanning and now banning of GGT is a good thing. Even though there might be a new card (or two) printed that push Dredge over the edge, taking those away would really gut the deck. GGT has always been identified as one of the cards that made the deck overperform and I think seeing how it worked out in the meta was a good step and I hope Wizards keeps at this. Sure, it's annoying that the cards come and go but in the end the cards need to be tested a lot before you can say anything about the impact. I do believe Wizards should keep trying to see if cards are ok, if not, they should go again. But blaming them for the GGT ban while it was unbanned for testing purposes, that I don't agree with and hopefully will not lead to cards staying on the banlist for that reason.
Furthermore, while I think that the Modern Masters set is a good thing (ofcourse it is not perfect, but the fact that there is such a set is important to get reprints going) the problem with Modern in my opinion is the lack of card introduction without affecting other sanctioned formats. Legacy has used the Commander and Conspiracy sets to introduce strong cards into the pool without affecting the other formats (Flusterstorm, Scooze, True-Name, Priest etc) and there is, unfortunately, no way in which that can be done for modern. Therefore, there will always be a discrepancy between the power level from before and that of now. I was really hoping for a change in the MM sets (or even in other products such as Commander), introducing newly designed cards that can be picked up from those sets. In this way, specific cards can be developed that are needed in Modern but should not be in standard. For instance a card resembling Wasteland would be great, we now have no answer to big mana that doesn't punish yourself (Ghost Quarter) or is fast enough (Tectonic Edge) to matter.
The development of cards is something that I believe should be done with the support of the community. Now I don't have a clue if this already happening, but if a card can be introduced via non-standard sets it can be designed to answer a problem. And who knows that better than the players themselves? There are a number of really good players that are staples of the format (Jeff Hoogland comes to mind), why doesn't Wizards give them the opportunity to test with cards. Why not enlist the large teams like Channel Fireball to test the cards? I'm sure these people have a heart for the game and want to see it get better, they might surely help to identify the problems and help introduce novel cards???
Forcing players to side in 3 to 4 cards is NOT policing a meta, it's warping a meta.
You sound absolutely ridiculous arguing. Stahp.
Forcing people to maindeck 4 Force of Wills to stop Belcher/All Spells/Dredge/whatever isn't policing the format?
You have no idea what policing cards do.
You're ridiculous.
Stahp.
What? Force of will is a safety valve to stop degenerate decks, period, and it's not a restrictive card on top of it
People sideboarding all those gy cards in the sb was almost purely dedicated to stopping one deck, seeing as how dredge drove out every gy deck to low tier 2 or tier 3
Aston_kutcher: Big difference between a police deck and a format parameter IMO. Infect and Burn are examples of format parameters - if your deck is too goldfishy, and doesn't pack any interaction, Infect will beat you. If your deck is too careless with its life total, Burn will beat you. These decks just set limits on how extreme your deck can be.
Police decks, like Jund and Twin, keep the format's most powerful linear decks in check.
Jordan corrected me the other day when I claimed Infect was a police deck. It's a format parameter as he says and I now get why.
Dredge and Infect were such.
@Earthbound Dredge was and is not a police deck of course. Spsiegel1987, is, as most of the times, 100% right.
Why would the metagame not just sort itself out like it always do? You claim that Tron and Valakut will dominate and push out the decks that feasted on the aggressive decks, and maybe it will, short term. But if that's the case, we will see affinity, burn, infect, various combo like griselbrand based decks rise and punish those decks. This again will open the way for the jund like decks, and that again will invite tron etch. Why would that cycle suddenly stop simply because suicide zoo, UR prowess and to a lesser extent infect got weakened?
I see you state several places that you expect we will suddenly only see tron and similar decks, but im sure the metagame will control itself like it always have done unless something is to strong, like preban eldrazi. Your posts seem very biased and filled with bitterness since a vital card to your deck is banned. Surely a seasoned magic and modern player like yourself realize that as soon as the metagame settle, players will target those established decks.
Why would the metagame not just sort itself out like it always do? You claim that Tron and Valakut will dominate and push out the decks that feasted on the aggressive decks, and maybe it will, short term. But if that's the case, we will see affinity, burn, infect, various combo like griselbrand based decks rise and punish those decks. This again will open the way for the jund like decks, and that again will invite tron etch. Why would that cycle suddenly stop simply because suicide zoo, UR prowess and to a lesser extent infect got weakened?
I see you state several places that you expect we will suddenly only see tron and similar decks, but im sure the metagame will control itself like it always have done unless something is to strong, like preban eldrazi. Your posts seem very biased and filled with bitterness since a vital card to your deck is banned. Surely a seasoned magic and modern player like yourself realize that as soon as the metagame settle, players will target those established decks.
Meta games don't always sort themselves out. Why would you think that?
They don't always do but Tron's dominance since 2015 at least have been cyclical. So on that front I think it's reasonable to assume it has a good chance of sorting itself out.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Furthermore, while I think that the Modern Masters set is a good thing (ofcourse it is not perfect, but the fact that there is such a set is important to get reprints going) the problem with Modern in my opinion is the lack of card introduction without affecting other sanctioned formats. Legacy has used the Commander and Conspiracy sets to introduce strong cards into the pool without affecting the other formats (Flusterstorm, Scooze, True-Name, Priest etc) and there is, unfortunately, no way in which that can be done for modern. Therefore, there will always be a discrepancy between the power level from before and that of now. I was really hoping for a change in the MM sets (or even in other products such as Commander), introducing newly designed cards that can be picked up from those sets. In this way, specific cards can be developed that are needed in Modern but should not be in standard. For instance a card resembling Wasteland would be great, we now have no answer to big mana that doesn't punish yourself (Ghost Quarter) or is fast enough (Tectonic Edge) to matter.
The development of cards is something that I believe should be done with the support of the community. Now I don't have a clue if this already happening, but if a card can be introduced via non-standard sets it can be designed to answer a problem. And who knows that better than the players themselves? There are a number of really good players that are staples of the format (Jeff Hoogland comes to mind), why doesn't Wizards give them the opportunity to test with cards. Why not enlist the large teams like Channel Fireball to test the cards? I'm sure these people have a heart for the game and want to see it get better, they might surely help to identify the problems and help introduce novel cards???
First, I don't think modern will ever have a way to introduce new cards into the format outside of WotC deciding to use MM sets to do so. They have already given legacy and vintage the space for card design for supplemental products for EDH etc... they have to make general rules like all of x is legal in y format it would be a nightmare if they did something like say only this or that card from this supplemental material is legal in MOD. Just looking at the cost of legacy staples from supplemental products in terms of cost and supply.
I am pretty sure that WotC does tap pro players to join the R&D side it just demands that you don't compete in competitive play. I would rather have the Jeff Hoogland and Channel Fireball players active in the competitive side. It would be a serious conflict of interest if they didn't have to leave competitive play, just get to design torney winning decks for themselves at that point.
It's not what you would initially think, but unbanned modern is actually a pretty diverse format. You can play so many different archetypes competitively.
Want to play all-in combo? There are tons of options - Storm, Second Sunrise, Elves, Infect, etc etc. In no-ban modern, these combo decks often lose to slower combo that has control elements, or the pure control / tempo decks. Twin variants, Delver Variants, or Dark Depths decks all have good matchups here.
Want to play Ramp? 12post is a thing, and scapeshift is also still viable (with dig through time). These decks generally have good matchups against anything without a fast clock as they'll go right over the top. With that said, they can be quite weak to aggro strategies or decks like Infect.
Want to play control? There are tons of options, ranging from Tezzeret Variants, to Stoneblade Variants, to Miracles, and more. Preordain and Ponder being legal along with top make the control archetype strong once again, and the format having more "all-in" style combo decks means reactive control is more important as a policeman.
Want to play aggro? Zoo is still viable, as are the more degenerate combo-aggro decks like Affinity, Burn (eidolon craps on many of the formats' combos) Zooicide, Dredge, and other similar types of decks.
Want to play midrange? Believe it or not, there are tons of viable options, including straight midrange, or combo midrange. Options include Birthing Pod decks, GSZ style maverick decks, Junk, punishing fire jund (with DRS), Delver variants, Death and Taxes (actually has tested as one of the better decks in most no-ban modern tournaments), and Eldrazi.
There are also of course the hybrid decks that play multiple roles like dark depths decks, twin variants, and other similar decks.
Given, there isn't a legitimate metagame, and if this were played on MTGO, the meta would likely settle in a good bit with some decks falling down to tier 2 or 3 status, and some emerging as favorites, but no ban modern is a surprisingly balanced and diverse metagame despite all the degenerate cards that are in it. The prevalence of the degenerate cards requires more anti-combo cards in the main-deck, but there are some relevant tools that are legal such as Top, Mental Misstep, and certain cards become maindeck-worthy as the metagame becomes so graveyard-focused (such as Relic in Tezz decks).
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Why would the metagame not just sort itself out like it always do? You claim that Tron and Valakut will dominate and push out the decks that feasted on the aggressive decks, and maybe it will, short term. But if that's the case, we will see affinity, burn, infect, various combo like griselbrand based decks rise and punish those decks. This again will open the way for the jund like decks, and that again will invite tron etch. Why would that cycle suddenly stop simply because suicide zoo, UR prowess and to a lesser extent infect got weakened?
I see you state several places that you expect we will suddenly only see tron and similar decks, but im sure the metagame will control itself like it always have done unless something is to strong, like preban eldrazi. Your posts seem very biased and filled with bitterness since a vital card to your deck is banned. Surely a seasoned magic and modern player like yourself realize that as soon as the metagame settle, players will target those established decks.
Historically when Tron is format legal and no Combo deck exists to simply beat it on the spot it is the best Mid-range deck. During Ravinica city of guilds standard when Tron was last legal in standard it dominated until combo deck came around to hate on it.
I think lots of players forget that Tron is a mid-range deck and that as it gets more refined at dealing with aggro decks with builds like GW Tron the less viable decks like Jund will be. Its essentially the same problem that Jund has with Bant Eldrazi that in mid-range vs. mid-range match ups the mid-range deck that goes bigger tends to do better.
Tron is also in unique position to get better cards added to its card pool quicker simply because expensive colorless spells will continue to be a regular feature of the game since in standard is almost always safe to print 6+ c.c. cards that are very powerful since in standard it is rare to see ramp affects cheap enough to break them.
I think that until we see a consistent enough combo deck to prey on Tron we will continue to see Tron climb in meta share since its adjustments to contend with zoo style aggro decks are also good against Jund style mid-range match ups in which it is already favored.
People seriously talking about banning Valakut... Banmania is here. Valakut is by no means breaking any rules. Simian Spirit Guide on the other hand...
Yes people are talking about valakut being banned. Why not? If it does well, it could be. That is Ban mania. Also assuming Spirit Guide, a card that sees less than 4 total percent in the meta should be banned... IS ALSO BAN MANIA
And your not to blame! Wizards has set the precedent. If its good, we will ban it.
My only doubt is that they should ban both Dredgers(Imp and this) or just ban Prized Amalgam instead.
This ban completely reminds me of the Bloodbraid Elf ban, when Deathrite Shaman was allowed to roam free. When dredge gets busted good again (which it can), they will eventually find out that Amalgam was the culprit, and thet Golgari Grave-Troll had nothing to do with it.
This is exactly what confuses me about Wizards. It's like their bias is so ridiculously intertwined with their ideologies that they can't distinguish actual problem cards anymore.
Cathartic Reunion became Draw 15 instead of Draw 18. That's all this banning did.
Yeah. I completely agree. And for the record, I am an Infect player. Gitaxian Probe ban was the best ban they could do. I will expand on it on the new thread.
About GGT, I cant understand why Dredge players are changing decks, etc. Even now, the deck is viable.
@Lantern can you share your opinion with us(about the viability of current Dredge)
Out of all bans that wizards has done, most which just straight up murder decks like pod or twin, I support this ban the most because it doesnt. Probe ban kills off storm and bloo likely, and hinders deaths shadow a ton, but isnt killing infect. I honestly think dredge is still a tier 1 deck with this ban... WHICH IS FINE. Before people jump on it to hate it... You probably should be running something like cage in your sideboard anyways for company decks.
What this ban did was 2 things. It made us less fast (we'll probably kill on turn 5 now, not turn 4 like normal. Completely acceptable), it made us less consistent as in well whiff more often (around 20-33%, thats nothing to sneeze at), and we fold to hate MUCH MUCH easier.
Troll was our way out to cage, and the best way to search for other hate answers. It was also one of our best ways out to selective grave hate and anger like cards.
Dredge can still have recurring threats, still attack from a weird angle, still scourge devil, still loot, and still do strong conflags. Nothings there has changed. Conflag made us tier 1 mind you. I'll admit that troll was probably a little too busted. Golgari thug isn't. We lost a win con, an anti hate card, and dredge 6 for a card that says dredge 4 and thats all. Its a big loss.
So Dredge is now a tier 1, tier 1.5 deck that loses to itself more often, and straight up WILL just die to sideboard hate. In those words... its basically just affinity... WHICH IS FINE. No ones trying to argue affinity is format warping.
Do you consider or find Scapeshift decks too oppressive? I don't think so outside of Breach lists - and monkey is there the biggest offender. If player is able to tap out and draw his whole library he will have 3-4 free mana thanks to that ape and Manamorphose and that is broken if something.
Modern
WUBRG
I don't think Valakut decks, at 4% of the meta, are oppressive. I especially do not think that Griselbrand and Adnauseam at collective sub 3% of the meta are oppressive. Anyone who says otherwise is a blatant troll. How a deck wins is far less important than the frequency of winning tournaments. Take your anti combo bias back to Standard, please.
What, exactly, is it offending? Because all numbers say that it isn't.
Here, I'll help you bro, make it real easy.
Valakut is 4% of the meta, nowhere near egregious enough to warrant any ban. All SSG is turn Through the Breach into a t4 instead of t5 play. Pretty sure you can handle that.
Ad Nauseam is 2% of the meta, and cannot win before turn 4. If you can't interact either by discard or racing or counterspells, you deserve to lose to your own durlde.
Griselbrand is less than 1% of the meta and not all versions even run SSG. It's also the most inconsistent pile in the format and is weak to everything Ad Nauseam is weak too.
So, unless you have some sort of argument other than "FACK MONKEE FAST MANA GGGGGGGG" then, kindly, shut up.
This is it. The ban paranoia has finally caught hold of me. I`m afraid to get into any of the decks I`m interested in. If Temur is ruined for me, I honestly don`t know what to do in my favourite format.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Sell your stuff and buy Legacy. This format is turning into a husk of what it once was.
Banning is removing, removing cards is removing decks. Modern IMO lost its essence, its soul, it's became a rotating format thanks to the bans. Not what i was used to get into. I passed from playing every week to play every month, and now i played once every 6 months.
You cant balance a format with bans, there will allways be a best card. You banned golgari grave troll and made dredge bad? here it comes abzan tier 0 20%. Another ban to it? here it comes the "put your next deck" with another high percentage. If you print policing cards and do not ban everything, then you can have answers to certain decks. You could still see decks rotating, but that would be the meta adjusting itself.
Anyway bye bye modern, i sold my jund deck i had since 6 years, and gained so much that i don't even care. It wasnt even the jund deck i began with, it was a deformed jund without the charismatic cards i wanted to start with. I won't play any official format, unless they'll start to bring back the modern to what they told us. I'm playing for fun since a lot of time, so i can play the cards i want.
(BTW i'd unban all the cards in modern, BAN only the mistakes like skullclamp, leave the format thrive for one year, telling THIS to the people, and then BAN those broken cards that made certain decks broken, all of this with updated communication with the community).
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
There's always the Chinese. RUG Delver is spendy, but UR less so. One step at a time.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Interesting that you saw they've been discussed dozens of times but still can't list an actual card and I said don't mention counterspell because it doesn't address the problem of fast linear which is what the complaint is about. The big mana decks SHOULD be able to have good match-ups too. You can't seriously hope to have "all the answers" good stuff.dec
Miracles, Eldrazi, and storm as well. And Post. It's actually a pretty diverse format, with a lot of police decks. Worth a shot.
No Ban Modern is actually a pretty sweet format. Last time I checked into it was before Eldrazi happened though. At the time, the best decks were Hypergeneis, PyroClamp, Stoneblade, Elves, Dredge, DnT and Tezz
Forcing players to side in 3 to 4 cards is NOT policing a meta, it's warping a meta.
You sound absolutely ridiculous arguing. Stahp.
Forcing people to maindeck 4 Force of Wills to stop Belcher/All Spells/Dredge/whatever isn't policing the format?
You have no idea what policing cards do.
You're ridiculous.
Stahp.
I think that overall, the unbanning and now banning of GGT is a good thing. Even though there might be a new card (or two) printed that push Dredge over the edge, taking those away would really gut the deck. GGT has always been identified as one of the cards that made the deck overperform and I think seeing how it worked out in the meta was a good step and I hope Wizards keeps at this. Sure, it's annoying that the cards come and go but in the end the cards need to be tested a lot before you can say anything about the impact. I do believe Wizards should keep trying to see if cards are ok, if not, they should go again. But blaming them for the GGT ban while it was unbanned for testing purposes, that I don't agree with and hopefully will not lead to cards staying on the banlist for that reason.
Furthermore, while I think that the Modern Masters set is a good thing (ofcourse it is not perfect, but the fact that there is such a set is important to get reprints going) the problem with Modern in my opinion is the lack of card introduction without affecting other sanctioned formats. Legacy has used the Commander and Conspiracy sets to introduce strong cards into the pool without affecting the other formats (Flusterstorm, Scooze, True-Name, Priest etc) and there is, unfortunately, no way in which that can be done for modern. Therefore, there will always be a discrepancy between the power level from before and that of now. I was really hoping for a change in the MM sets (or even in other products such as Commander), introducing newly designed cards that can be picked up from those sets. In this way, specific cards can be developed that are needed in Modern but should not be in standard. For instance a card resembling Wasteland would be great, we now have no answer to big mana that doesn't punish yourself (Ghost Quarter) or is fast enough (Tectonic Edge) to matter.
The development of cards is something that I believe should be done with the support of the community. Now I don't have a clue if this already happening, but if a card can be introduced via non-standard sets it can be designed to answer a problem. And who knows that better than the players themselves? There are a number of really good players that are staples of the format (Jeff Hoogland comes to mind), why doesn't Wizards give them the opportunity to test with cards. Why not enlist the large teams like Channel Fireball to test the cards? I'm sure these people have a heart for the game and want to see it get better, they might surely help to identify the problems and help introduce novel cards???
What? Force of will is a safety valve to stop degenerate decks, period, and it's not a restrictive card on top of it
People sideboarding all those gy cards in the sb was almost purely dedicated to stopping one deck, seeing as how dredge drove out every gy deck to low tier 2 or tier 3
I'm sorry, brosefs.
I guess I blurred the lines between a police deck and parameter deck, the article makes a lot of sense.
I still feel infect is healthy for the format, but perhaps a probe ban was right since combo and aggro were like 2/3rds of tier 1 shares
Why would the metagame not just sort itself out like it always do? You claim that Tron and Valakut will dominate and push out the decks that feasted on the aggressive decks, and maybe it will, short term. But if that's the case, we will see affinity, burn, infect, various combo like griselbrand based decks rise and punish those decks. This again will open the way for the jund like decks, and that again will invite tron etch. Why would that cycle suddenly stop simply because suicide zoo, UR prowess and to a lesser extent infect got weakened?
I see you state several places that you expect we will suddenly only see tron and similar decks, but im sure the metagame will control itself like it always have done unless something is to strong, like preban eldrazi. Your posts seem very biased and filled with bitterness since a vital card to your deck is banned. Surely a seasoned magic and modern player like yourself realize that as soon as the metagame settle, players will target those established decks.
Meta games don't always sort themselves out. Why would you think that?
First, I don't think modern will ever have a way to introduce new cards into the format outside of WotC deciding to use MM sets to do so. They have already given legacy and vintage the space for card design for supplemental products for EDH etc... they have to make general rules like all of x is legal in y format it would be a nightmare if they did something like say only this or that card from this supplemental material is legal in MOD. Just looking at the cost of legacy staples from supplemental products in terms of cost and supply.
I am pretty sure that WotC does tap pro players to join the R&D side it just demands that you don't compete in competitive play. I would rather have the Jeff Hoogland and Channel Fireball players active in the competitive side. It would be a serious conflict of interest if they didn't have to leave competitive play, just get to design torney winning decks for themselves at that point.
Want to play all-in combo? There are tons of options - Storm, Second Sunrise, Elves, Infect, etc etc. In no-ban modern, these combo decks often lose to slower combo that has control elements, or the pure control / tempo decks. Twin variants, Delver Variants, or Dark Depths decks all have good matchups here.
Want to play Ramp? 12post is a thing, and scapeshift is also still viable (with dig through time). These decks generally have good matchups against anything without a fast clock as they'll go right over the top. With that said, they can be quite weak to aggro strategies or decks like Infect.
Want to play control? There are tons of options, ranging from Tezzeret Variants, to Stoneblade Variants, to Miracles, and more. Preordain and Ponder being legal along with top make the control archetype strong once again, and the format having more "all-in" style combo decks means reactive control is more important as a policeman.
Want to play aggro? Zoo is still viable, as are the more degenerate combo-aggro decks like Affinity, Burn (eidolon craps on many of the formats' combos) Zooicide, Dredge, and other similar types of decks.
Want to play midrange? Believe it or not, there are tons of viable options, including straight midrange, or combo midrange. Options include Birthing Pod decks, GSZ style maverick decks, Junk, punishing fire jund (with DRS), Delver variants, Death and Taxes (actually has tested as one of the better decks in most no-ban modern tournaments), and Eldrazi.
There are also of course the hybrid decks that play multiple roles like dark depths decks, twin variants, and other similar decks.
Given, there isn't a legitimate metagame, and if this were played on MTGO, the meta would likely settle in a good bit with some decks falling down to tier 2 or 3 status, and some emerging as favorites, but no ban modern is a surprisingly balanced and diverse metagame despite all the degenerate cards that are in it. The prevalence of the degenerate cards requires more anti-combo cards in the main-deck, but there are some relevant tools that are legal such as Top, Mental Misstep, and certain cards become maindeck-worthy as the metagame becomes so graveyard-focused (such as Relic in Tezz decks).
Historically when Tron is format legal and no Combo deck exists to simply beat it on the spot it is the best Mid-range deck. During Ravinica city of guilds standard when Tron was last legal in standard it dominated until combo deck came around to hate on it.
I think lots of players forget that Tron is a mid-range deck and that as it gets more refined at dealing with aggro decks with builds like GW Tron the less viable decks like Jund will be. Its essentially the same problem that Jund has with Bant Eldrazi that in mid-range vs. mid-range match ups the mid-range deck that goes bigger tends to do better.
Tron is also in unique position to get better cards added to its card pool quicker simply because expensive colorless spells will continue to be a regular feature of the game since in standard is almost always safe to print 6+ c.c. cards that are very powerful since in standard it is rare to see ramp affects cheap enough to break them.
I think that until we see a consistent enough combo deck to prey on Tron we will continue to see Tron climb in meta share since its adjustments to contend with zoo style aggro decks are also good against Jund style mid-range match ups in which it is already favored.
Yes people are talking about valakut being banned. Why not? If it does well, it could be. That is Ban mania. Also assuming Spirit Guide, a card that sees less than 4 total percent in the meta should be banned... IS ALSO BAN MANIA
And your not to blame! Wizards has set the precedent. If its good, we will ban it.
Out of all bans that wizards has done, most which just straight up murder decks like pod or twin, I support this ban the most because it doesnt. Probe ban kills off storm and bloo likely, and hinders deaths shadow a ton, but isnt killing infect. I honestly think dredge is still a tier 1 deck with this ban... WHICH IS FINE. Before people jump on it to hate it... You probably should be running something like cage in your sideboard anyways for company decks.
What this ban did was 2 things. It made us less fast (we'll probably kill on turn 5 now, not turn 4 like normal. Completely acceptable), it made us less consistent as in well whiff more often (around 20-33%, thats nothing to sneeze at), and we fold to hate MUCH MUCH easier.
Troll was our way out to cage, and the best way to search for other hate answers. It was also one of our best ways out to selective grave hate and anger like cards.
Dredge can still have recurring threats, still attack from a weird angle, still scourge devil, still loot, and still do strong conflags. Nothings there has changed. Conflag made us tier 1 mind you. I'll admit that troll was probably a little too busted. Golgari thug isn't. We lost a win con, an anti hate card, and dredge 6 for a card that says dredge 4 and thats all. Its a big loss.
So Dredge is now a tier 1, tier 1.5 deck that loses to itself more often, and straight up WILL just die to sideboard hate. In those words... its basically just affinity... WHICH IS FINE. No ones trying to argue affinity is format warping.