Twin wasn't format warping in the sense that every deck had to devote a billion sideboard slots to it (ok five or six) like with dredge, and it wasn't UW eldrazi-warping in that it was the only viable deck. It was warping in that it crushed the metagame around it. 4 cmc threats were poor, most cheap removal other than lightning bolt was unplayable if it didn't hit the twin creatures, etc.
It's telling to look at abrupt decay numbers. Pre Twin-ban, it was an automatic 4x in virtually every BGx deck. Post twin-banning, Decay is often relegated to a 2 or 3 of, and some builds cut down on it even further than that.
Blatantly false. 4 Abrupt Decays was actually quite rare for BGx in 2015. Take a look here, here, here and here, for example. I'm not saying it never happened, but 3 was the standard amount.
You can't say the reason people aren't running 4x Abrupt Decay is Splinter Twin's banning when it was rather uncommon even while Splinter Twin was around.
I think anyone who buys into cheerios is an absolute fool. If you're looking for fun, meta gaming, or already own the deck, I respect that.
But I am so certain the deck is getting banned if it starts hitting top 8s. It is violating way too many turn 4 wins. I don't think games could come down to if the opponent had 2 1 Mana kill spells in hand.
Sigh, guess you guys should have prepared speeches for the future morons who cry outrage on reddit about wizard banning everything
I think anyone who buys into cheerios is an absolute fool. If you're looking for fun, meta gaming, or already own the deck, I respect that.
But I am so certain the deck is getting banned if it starts hitting top 8s. It is violating way too many turn 4 wins. I don't think games could come down to if the opponent had 2 1 Mana kill spells in hand.
Sigh, guess you guys should have prepared speeches for the future morons who cry outrage on reddit about wizard banning everything
Still don't understand this insulting, aggressive language. You're not a "fool" for buying into a deck, no matter how high the chance of a banning is. Different people play for different reasons. Perhaps the game is all about investing into decks that don't get banned for you (?), but most people I know don't have that as their primary objective when it comes to Modern.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I think anyone who buys into cheerios is an absolute fool. If you're looking for fun, meta gaming, or already own the deck, I respect that.
But I am so certain the deck is getting banned if it starts hitting top 8s. It is violating way too many turn 4 wins. I don't think games could come down to if the opponent had 2 1 Mana kill spells in hand.
Sigh, guess you guys should have prepared speeches for the future morons who cry outrage on reddit about wizard banning everything
Still don't understand this insulting, aggressive language. You're not a "fool" for buying into a deck, no matter how high the chance of a banning is. Different people play for different reasons. Perhaps the game is all about investing into decks that don't get banned for you (?), but most people I know don't have that as their primary objective when it comes to Modern.
I think the point being made here is that a deck like Cheerios is in no way safe if it can win that quickly and also do well at the GP level. Wizards has shown they are not afraid of banning decks for new and unknown reasons (or through different interpretations of old reasons), and this deck is a textbook ban case if it takes off in either popularity or success. The joke is that Modern players root for their decks to lose so they won't get banned, and that feels more and more true every day.
Therefore, it is foolish to buy in, unless you are comfortable with buying into a deck that will likely get banned.
I think anyone who buys into cheerios is an absolute fool. If you're looking for fun, meta gaming, or already own the deck, I respect that.
But I am so certain the deck is getting banned if it starts hitting top 8s. It is violating way too many turn 4 wins. I don't think games could come down to if the opponent had 2 1 Mana kill spells in hand.
Sigh, guess you guys should have prepared speeches for the future morons who cry outrage on reddit about wizard banning everything
Still don't understand this insulting, aggressive language. You're not a "fool" for buying into a deck, no matter how high the chance of a banning is. Different people play for different reasons. Perhaps the game is all about investing into decks that don't get banned for you (?), but most people I know don't have that as their primary objective when it comes to Modern.
I think the point being made here is that a deck like Cheerios is in no way safe if it can win that quickly and also do well at the GP level. Wizards has shown they are not afraid of banning decks for new and unknown reasons (or through different interpretations of old reasons), and this deck is a textbook ban case if it takes off in either popularity or success. The joke is that Modern players root for their decks to lose so they won't get banned, and that feels more and more true every day.
Surely there's a way to make this point without calling others "morons" or "fools?" I don't understand the need to flame people for playing whichever decks they want. That's literally the entire point of a constructed format.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I think anyone who buys into cheerios is an absolute fool. If you're looking for fun, meta gaming, or already own the deck, I respect that.
But I am so certain the deck is getting banned if it starts hitting top 8s. It is violating way too many turn 4 wins. I don't think games could come down to if the opponent had 2 1 Mana kill spells in hand.
Sigh, guess you guys should have prepared speeches for the future morons who cry outrage on reddit about wizard banning everything
Still don't understand this insulting, aggressive language. You're not a "fool" for buying into a deck, no matter how high the chance of a banning is. Different people play for different reasons. Perhaps the game is all about investing into decks that don't get banned for you (?), but most people I know don't have that as their primary objective when it comes to Modern.
I think the point being made here is that a deck like Cheerios is in no way safe if it can win that quickly and also do well at the GP level. Wizards has shown they are not afraid of banning decks for new and unknown reasons (or through different interpretations of old reasons), and this deck is a textbook ban case if it takes off in either popularity or success. The joke is that Modern players root for their decks to lose so they won't get banned, and that feels more and more true every day.
Surely there's a way to make this point without calling others "morons" or "fools?" I don't understand the need to flame people for playing whichever decks they want. That's literally the entire point of a constructed format.
I edited my post to include another statement, but it's basically a comment that its foolish to knowingly buy into a deck that has a high likelihood of being banned. Unfortunately, this is the Modern we live in because that is how Wizards chooses to manage their format.
Twin wasn't warping. Every deck has cards to account for other Tier 1 decks, or even Tier 2 strategies.
I dont think even Probe was warping. Eldrazi was warping.
Now after several days of grinding BGx decks, I will say I have a new understanding on Twin's banning. I NEVER felt out of it with Twin. I was always given at least 1 path to victory, and thats not how all other decks function. The ability to combo out after drawing into answers and steal games is pretty unique to Twin imo.
No deck exists now, that Twin was 'policing from existing'.
Bull. As I said a few pages back, there are at least five or six decks that would simply be pointless to play in a world where Twin is legal. Why play Nahiri when Twin is faster/better/more consistent? Why play any U/R/x variant that isn't Twin? Why play any combo deck that isn't Twin?
I'm sorry you don't have your "even or better matchup against the entire field" deck anymore. But are you really going to continue complaining about it every single day (13 months straight now) until it comes back or Modern dies, whichever comes first?
That's not the point. Decks like Nahiri didn't see play because Nahiri, the Harbinger had not been printed until 3 months after the ban. What decks, that existed as a deck, and hadn't seen significant gains from newly printed cards, were being suppressed under Twin, and are thriving now? This is a ludicrous and baseless claim to make.
So you are going to try and claim that Nahiri would see any Modern play at all if Twin wouldn't have been banned? Yeah... no.
It would if it was a viable deck. There is nothing mechanically that would cause Twin to hate out Nahiri decks, it just would be unlikely to get traction because UR Twin is better.
That's not suppression, that's Jeskai being not as good (or just good, period).
There are only two constants in life that one can depend on in modern: Merfolk and some variety of burn. Everybody else is flying a kite in a stormy sea of uncertainty. Well, unless we extend this to the LGS, in which case I have to ask if everyone elses LGS has a snack stand around the counter with a seemingly infinite supply of Dorritos and little debbie snacks?
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Anyone else have a little hope that the more new cards that break Modern, the likelier we are to see a course correction re: broad maindeckable answers? I feel like if we end up with a frequent cycle of "Gotta ban the new thing we just broke," that could be pretty bad for format health.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
That's just not true. It's only foolish if you plan on playing that deck for years to come. Plenty of people buy into top decks with the knowledge that they may very well be banned. I did so myself with Eldrazi, even trading booster boxes I had laying around for 50$ Eye of Ugins. Not sure how that makes me foolish or a moron?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I think anyone who buys into cheerios is an absolute fool. If you're looking for fun, meta gaming, or already own the deck, I respect that.
But I am so certain the deck is getting banned if it starts hitting top 8s. It is violating way too many turn 4 wins. I don't think games could come down to if the opponent had 2 1 Mana kill spells in hand.
Sigh, guess you guys should have prepared speeches for the future morons who cry outrage on reddit about wizard banning everything
Still don't understand this insulting, aggressive language. You're not a "fool" for buying into a deck, no matter how high the chance of a banning is. Different people play for different reasons. Perhaps the game is all about investing into decks that don't get banned for you (?), but most people I know don't have that as their primary objective when it comes to Modern.
I understand your perspective AK, but I'm going to agree with Spsiegel1987 on this topic, not his language, but his perspective.
Having your deck banned after you invested in it feels like buying an Xbox, then going home and it just doesn't work, no refund. Whether the individual is knowledgeable about Modern or not is a different topic entirely.
This entire mentality, is the reason I am against aggressive banned lists. It creates this atmosphere.
That's just not true. It's only foolish if you plan on playing that deck for years to come. Plenty of people buy into top decks with the knowledge that they may very well be banned. I did so myself with Eldrazi, even trading booster boxes I had laying around for 50$ Eye of Ugins. Not sure how that makes me foolish or a moron?
Bull. As I said a few pages back, there are at least five or six decks that would simply be pointless to play in a world where Twin is legal. Why play Nahiri when Twin is faster/better/more consistent? Why play any U/R/x variant that isn't Twin? Why play any combo deck that isn't Twin?
I'm sorry you don't have your "even or better matchup against the entire field" deck anymore. But are you really going to continue complaining about it every single day (13 months straight now) until it comes back or Modern dies, whichever comes first?
Oh my god, do we seriously have to go over the same points every 2 weeks? You people all complain about the Twin apologists, but at least (most of us) make valid points and don't over-exaggerate history to try to prove our point.
Why play Jeskai Nahiri if Twin were legal? First of all, almost nobody is playing it now. Second, Twin being legal would create a very good reason to play Jeskai Nahiri, being that it would have a good Twin match up. Someone posted historical metagame numbers on reddit the other day, and there were times where Grixis Delver reached 10% of the meta and Jeskai Control was almost 7%. This was all while coexisting with Twin. So yeah, this point is thoroughly debunked by just looking at past metagame shares.
And now for your "even or better matchup against the field" argument. MTGGoldfish analyzed 28k matches of Modern back in July 2015 before basically being told to cease and desist from WotC. Would you like to know where Twin ranked for win percentage? Of the decks with over 500 matches recorded, Twin was 10th. Ahead of Twin was Bant Company, Suicide Zoo, Jeskai Control, Naya Zoo, Affinity, Elves, Soul Sisters, Bogles, and Merfolk. So again, point easily debunked.
And for the other point I've seen people floating around, about how Twin "warped the format": EVERY tier 1 deck bends the format a bit to itself. Are you running those Stony Silences in your board just because you like the art? The most played decks are what make up the format's environment, and the format's environment is what determines what is good or not. Every top tier deck contributes to this picture. A format is warped when it becomes a clear Tier 0 top deck and decks that directly beat it, like we saw during Eldrazi Winter. Twin was never anywhere close to that, so people need to stop being over dramatic.
Now I would gladly like to drop the Twin topic if some of you people would stop trying to revise history until I feel compelled to respond.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
[quote from="Teysa_Karlov »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/764899-state-of-modern-thread-bans-format-health-reprints?comment=2418"]
Are you running those Stony Silences in your board just because you like the art?
Bull. As I said a few pages back, there are at least five or six decks that would simply be pointless to play in a world where Twin is legal. Why play Nahiri when Twin is faster/better/more consistent? Why play any U/R/x variant that isn't Twin? Why play any combo deck that isn't Twin?
I'm sorry you don't have your "even or better matchup against the entire field" deck anymore. But are you really going to continue complaining about it every single day (13 months straight now) until it comes back or Modern dies, whichever comes first?
Oh my god, do we seriously have to go over the same points every 2 weeks? You people all complain about the Twin apologists, but at least (most of us) make valid points and don't over-exaggerate history to try to prove our point.
Why play Jeskai Nahiri if Twin were legal? First of all, almost nobody is playing it now. Second, Twin being legal would create a very good reason to play Jeskai Nahiri, being that it would have a good Twin match up. Someone posted historical metagame numbers on reddit the other day, and there were times where Grixis Delver reached 10% of the meta and Jeskai Control was almost 7%. This was all while coexisting with Twin. So yeah, this point is thoroughly debunked by just looking at past metagame shares.
And now for your "even or better matchup against the field" argument. MTGGoldfish analyzed 28k matches of Modern back in July 2015 before basically being told to cease and desist from WotC. Would you like to know where Twin ranked for win percentage? Of the decks with over 500 matches recorded, Twin was 10th. Ahead of Twin was Bant Company, Suicide Zoo, Jeskai Control, Naya Zoo, Affinity, Elves, Soul Sisters, Bogles, and Merfolk. So again, point easily debunked.
And for the other point I've seen people floating around, about how Twin "warped the format": EVERY tier 1 deck bends the format a bit to itself. Are you running those Stony Silences in your board just because you like the art? The most played decks are what make up the format's environment, and the format's environment is what determines what is good or not. Every top tier deck contributes to this picture. A format is warped when it becomes a clear Tier 0 top deck and decks that directly beat it, like we saw during Eldrazi Winter. Twin was never anywhere close to that, so people need to stop being over dramatic.
Now I would gladly like to drop the Twin topic if some of you people would stop trying to revise history until I feel compelled to respond.
In two days, it will be 14 months since the Twin Defense Force began their war on this thread, Wizards, and everyone trying to have a rational discussion about Modern. There have been several international conflicts that have lasted a shorter amount of time.
There is no "revisionist" history going on here. There are no "alternative facts" for your argument. Feel free to cry and whine and stamp your feet about how the mean old Pro Tour shakeup killed your pet deck.
Twin is dead. And if you honestly think burning this thread to the ground to defend your pet deck is going to change that, you're wrong.
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I think anyone who buys into cheerios is an absolute fool. If you're looking for fun, meta gaming, or already own the deck, I respect that.
But I am so certain the deck is getting banned if it starts hitting top 8s. It is violating way too many turn 4 wins. I don't think games could come down to if the opponent had 2 1 Mana kill spells in hand.
Sigh, guess you guys should have prepared speeches for the future morons who cry outrage on reddit about wizard banning everything
Still don't understand this insulting, aggressive language. You're not a "fool" for buying into a deck, no matter how high the chance of a banning is. Different people play for different reasons. Perhaps the game is all about investing into decks that don't get banned for you (?), but most people I know don't have that as their primary objective when it comes to Modern.
I understand your perspective AK, but I'm going to agree with Spsiegel1987 on this topic, not his language, but his perspective.
Having your deck banned after you invested in it feels like buying an Xbox, then going home and it just doesn't work, no refund. Whether the individual is knowledgeable about Modern or not is a different topic entirely.
This entire mentality, is the reason I am against aggressive banned lists. It creates this atmosphere.
I'm only taking issue with his language and encourage him to have his own perspective.
Well or just paying money to buy something, enjoying it, and that's it. It's not like it's the most strange thing in the world, to pay for something, use it and then it's gone.
That's just not true. It's only foolish if you plan on playing that deck for years to come. Plenty of people buy into top decks with the knowledge that they may very well be banned. I did so myself with Eldrazi, even trading booster boxes I had laying around for 50$ Eye of Ugins. Not sure how that makes me foolish or a moron?
I guess Legacy Eldrazi Stompy is still a thing?
Haha I don't play Legacy but I'm fine with the Eyes sitting around in my NBL box forever. I wanted to play the deck, got a few months of mileage out of it, and was happy. Anyway sleeving up TKS and Smasher gave me a whole new deck to play and perspective on Modern---these days, I run Colorless Eldrazi in Modern more than I do any other deck. That gripping yarn to say there's a lot to gain from buying into decks depending on your perspective, whether or not they get banned. IMO, making everything about money and "value" isn't just illogical, it's gross.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Nobody is objecting to Twin's ban at this point, just your false statements. :]
BULL.
Proof: See nearly every post made by CfusionPM over the last 14 months. See nearly every post by xxxHellfire313xxx. See about half of WraithPk's posts.
Over the last nine months, there have been more posts arguing the Twin ban than for any other deck in Modern. In fact, if you take Eldrazi and Dredge out of the equation, they account for more than all other decks COMBINED.
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
The Twin banning has been discussed a million times over by people on this forum with a lot more knowledge than me. But they stopped arguing a long time ago because no matter what they said, no matter what facts they brought up, no matter what happened, the Twin Defense Force was unwilling to change, unwilling to relent, and unwilling to accept anything that contradicted their narrative that Wizards was just out to get them for "reasons".
So, by all means pick apart my arguments if it makes you feel better. But Twin isn't coming back, and Modern is better for it.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Yes, well the messaging and optics of the ban where to frank, horrible. The PR work was laughable, and the fact they kept the abomination that is Eldrazi Bant in Tier 1 is a fester wound in the side of everyone who's Tier 1 deck became so much Tier 2/Tier 3 jank for the sake of 'shaking things up'.
I get it though, finally, I do. Twin WAS the best deck, fractionally or not, it had the best tools to eek out the most wins that it shouldnt have, while remaining competitive, interactive, and thoughtful. They couldnt keep it around NOT because it was oppressive, NOT because it was 'keeping down blue diversity' but because it was simply put the safe, best, deck.
The ban was still handled poorly, but any claims that Twin being around would mean no other blue decks would be played...well show me the Blue decks being Tier 1 played right now? Hmm, nothing.
Good thing Twin was sacrificed for the sake of BLUE DIVERSITY. So no. Twin sure as hell wasnt suppressing anything, as you can see, there is little to 'suppress' that Eldrazi, Jund, and Tron wont be doing just fine.
Blue's place in the format becomes more defined when Modern is slow enough for Mana Leak to be a reasonable card. I'm sure we'll see blue decks start to accrue metagame shares in this new, Probeless, Push-inclusive Modern.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
To this day I do not get where the belief that Modern has a uniquely high number of bans comes from. The format is barely 6 years old and excluding the initial banned list and the handful of bans after PT Philadelphia 2011 (Debut of Modern) there have been exactly 12 Bans, and 6 Unbans, including the Unbanning and Rebanning of GGT. Look at the first 10-12 years of Type 1 (Vintage), Type 1.5 (Legacy), Type 2 (Standard), and Extended and you'll see the same thing. The only reason the other nonrotating formats don't have what might be perceived as regular bans is because that already happened years ago. They banned like 10-12 cards at once a few times in the 90s so be glad that hasn't happened.
Yes, well the messaging and optics of the ban where to frank, horrible. The PR work was laughable, and the fact they kept the abomination that is Eldrazi Bant in Tier 1 is a fester wound in the side of everyone who's Tier 1 deck became so much Tier 2/Tier 3 jank for the sake of 'shaking things up'.
I get it though, finally, I do. Twin WAS the best deck, fractionally or not, it had the best tools to eek out the most wins that it shouldnt have, while remaining competitive, interactive, and thoughtful. They couldnt keep it around NOT because it was oppressive, NOT because it was 'keeping down blue diversity' but because it was simply put the safe, best, deck.
The ban was still handled poorly, but any claims that Twin being around would mean no other blue decks would be played...well show me the Blue decks being Tier 1 played right now? Hmm, nothing.
Good thing Twin was sacrificed for the sake of BLUE DIVERSITY. So no. Twin sure as hell wasnt suppressing anything, as you can see, there is little to 'suppress' that Eldrazi, Jund, and Tron wont be doing just fine.
I notice you're forgetting:
Bant Eldrazi (Green-BLUE-White) 4.3%
Merfolk 1.8%
And while those numbers seem low, the top overall decks are:
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Re: Cheeri0s
No idea how it's working out for others, but it's beyond broken in my games. I'm interested in seeing how it plays out at the GP and SCG Classic/Open level. Thankfully, I had the deck anyway so I'm not worried about a ban, but I also couldn't advise someone in good conscience to buy this deck right now if you were looking for a stable investment. I'll also say that the only reason this deck feels so nutty in Modern is the lack of a FoW effect to keep people honest. I'll see how I feel about this as more time passes, but I'm starting to think that large, nonrotating formats like Modern actually need a free card like FoW (or maybe a free removal spell instead) to keep things honest and set a speed limit. Without those cards, extensive bans might be necessary.
Re: Twin ban
I encourage anyone who is tired of talking about the Twin ban to just not engage those posts and to just suggest other avenues of conversation. The broad nature of this thread allows lots of other interesting and productive topics. That said, idSurge is correct that blue decks were horrendous at the end of 2016, so on the "increasing UR diversity" count, the Twin ban has clearly failed a year later. We'll see how things look post-ban and into the coming GP/Open/Classic season: maybe Fatal Push gives Esper, Grixis, and Sultai the "push" they needed!
Teysa, you are going to say Bant Eldrazi is 'blue'? Give me a break.
A quick look at their lists (and it had to be quick before I just wept that their idiotically broken creatures still exist in this format...) shows Stubborn Denial as a blue spell. The rest are creatures. I'd bother to look up what my UR Twin contained to 'transfer' to such a BLUE deck, but..we both know there is no point.
Please, at least show the common decency to acknowledge what we are discussing with 'blue decks'.
Lies, damn lies, and statistics I suppose.
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UW Spirits
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Blatantly false. 4 Abrupt Decays was actually quite rare for BGx in 2015. Take a look here, here, here and here, for example. I'm not saying it never happened, but 3 was the standard amount.
You can't say the reason people aren't running 4x Abrupt Decay is Splinter Twin's banning when it was rather uncommon even while Splinter Twin was around.
But I am so certain the deck is getting banned if it starts hitting top 8s. It is violating way too many turn 4 wins. I don't think games could come down to if the opponent had 2 1 Mana kill spells in hand.
Sigh, guess you guys should have prepared speeches for the future morons who cry outrage on reddit about wizard banning everything
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I think the point being made here is that a deck like Cheerios is in no way safe if it can win that quickly and also do well at the GP level. Wizards has shown they are not afraid of banning decks for new and unknown reasons (or through different interpretations of old reasons), and this deck is a textbook ban case if it takes off in either popularity or success. The joke is that Modern players root for their decks to lose so they won't get banned, and that feels more and more true every day.
Therefore, it is foolish to buy in, unless you are comfortable with buying into a deck that will likely get banned.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I edited my post to include another statement, but it's basically a comment that its foolish to knowingly buy into a deck that has a high likelihood of being banned. Unfortunately, this is the Modern we live in because that is how Wizards chooses to manage their format.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
There are only two constants in life that one can depend on in modern: Merfolk and some variety of burn. Everybody else is flying a kite in a stormy sea of uncertainty. Well, unless we extend this to the LGS, in which case I have to ask if everyone elses LGS has a snack stand around the counter with a seemingly infinite supply of Dorritos and little debbie snacks?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I understand your perspective AK, but I'm going to agree with Spsiegel1987 on this topic, not his language, but his perspective.
Having your deck banned after you invested in it feels like buying an Xbox, then going home and it just doesn't work, no refund. Whether the individual is knowledgeable about Modern or not is a different topic entirely.
This entire mentality, is the reason I am against aggressive banned lists. It creates this atmosphere.
I guess Legacy Eldrazi Stompy is still a thing?
Spirits
Oh my god, do we seriously have to go over the same points every 2 weeks? You people all complain about the Twin apologists, but at least (most of us) make valid points and don't over-exaggerate history to try to prove our point.
Why play Jeskai Nahiri if Twin were legal? First of all, almost nobody is playing it now. Second, Twin being legal would create a very good reason to play Jeskai Nahiri, being that it would have a good Twin match up. Someone posted historical metagame numbers on reddit the other day, and there were times where Grixis Delver reached 10% of the meta and Jeskai Control was almost 7%. This was all while coexisting with Twin. So yeah, this point is thoroughly debunked by just looking at past metagame shares.
And now for your "even or better matchup against the field" argument. MTGGoldfish analyzed 28k matches of Modern back in July 2015 before basically being told to cease and desist from WotC. Would you like to know where Twin ranked for win percentage? Of the decks with over 500 matches recorded, Twin was 10th. Ahead of Twin was Bant Company, Suicide Zoo, Jeskai Control, Naya Zoo, Affinity, Elves, Soul Sisters, Bogles, and Merfolk. So again, point easily debunked.
And for the other point I've seen people floating around, about how Twin "warped the format": EVERY tier 1 deck bends the format a bit to itself. Are you running those Stony Silences in your board just because you like the art? The most played decks are what make up the format's environment, and the format's environment is what determines what is good or not. Every top tier deck contributes to this picture. A format is warped when it becomes a clear Tier 0 top deck and decks that directly beat it, like we saw during Eldrazi Winter. Twin was never anywhere close to that, so people need to stop being over dramatic.
Now I would gladly like to drop the Twin topic if some of you people would stop trying to revise history until I feel compelled to respond.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
This had me laughing. :]
Spirits
In two days, it will be 14 months since the Twin Defense Force began their war on this thread, Wizards, and everyone trying to have a rational discussion about Modern. There have been several international conflicts that have lasted a shorter amount of time.
There is no "revisionist" history going on here. There are no "alternative facts" for your argument. Feel free to cry and whine and stamp your feet about how the mean old Pro Tour shakeup killed your pet deck.
Twin is dead. And if you honestly think burning this thread to the ground to defend your pet deck is going to change that, you're wrong.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Spirits
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
BULL.
Proof: See nearly every post made by CfusionPM over the last 14 months. See nearly every post by xxxHellfire313xxx. See about half of WraithPk's posts.
Over the last nine months, there have been more posts arguing the Twin ban than for any other deck in Modern. In fact, if you take Eldrazi and Dredge out of the equation, they account for more than all other decks COMBINED.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
So, by all means pick apart my arguments if it makes you feel better. But Twin isn't coming back, and Modern is better for it.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
I get it though, finally, I do. Twin WAS the best deck, fractionally or not, it had the best tools to eek out the most wins that it shouldnt have, while remaining competitive, interactive, and thoughtful. They couldnt keep it around NOT because it was oppressive, NOT because it was 'keeping down blue diversity' but because it was simply put the safe, best, deck.
The ban was still handled poorly, but any claims that Twin being around would mean no other blue decks would be played...well show me the Blue decks being Tier 1 played right now? Hmm, nothing.
Grixis Delver, 2.6%
UR Prowess, 2.2%
Grixis Control, 2.2%
Jeskai Harbringer, 1.7%
Good thing Twin was sacrificed for the sake of BLUE DIVERSITY. So no. Twin sure as hell wasnt suppressing anything, as you can see, there is little to 'suppress' that Eldrazi, Jund, and Tron wont be doing just fine.
Spirits
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I notice you're forgetting:
Bant Eldrazi (Green-BLUE-White) 4.3%
Merfolk 1.8%
And while those numbers seem low, the top overall decks are:
Infect (10.2%)
Jund (7.5%)
Burn (6.9%)
Dredge (6.8%)
Affinity (5.3%)
Blue decks are represented as the 6th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 15th, and 16th most played decks in Modern.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
No idea how it's working out for others, but it's beyond broken in my games. I'm interested in seeing how it plays out at the GP and SCG Classic/Open level. Thankfully, I had the deck anyway so I'm not worried about a ban, but I also couldn't advise someone in good conscience to buy this deck right now if you were looking for a stable investment. I'll also say that the only reason this deck feels so nutty in Modern is the lack of a FoW effect to keep people honest. I'll see how I feel about this as more time passes, but I'm starting to think that large, nonrotating formats like Modern actually need a free card like FoW (or maybe a free removal spell instead) to keep things honest and set a speed limit. Without those cards, extensive bans might be necessary.
Re: Twin ban
I encourage anyone who is tired of talking about the Twin ban to just not engage those posts and to just suggest other avenues of conversation. The broad nature of this thread allows lots of other interesting and productive topics. That said, idSurge is correct that blue decks were horrendous at the end of 2016, so on the "increasing UR diversity" count, the Twin ban has clearly failed a year later. We'll see how things look post-ban and into the coming GP/Open/Classic season: maybe Fatal Push gives Esper, Grixis, and Sultai the "push" they needed!
A quick look at their lists (and it had to be quick before I just wept that their idiotically broken creatures still exist in this format...) shows Stubborn Denial as a blue spell. The rest are creatures. I'd bother to look up what my UR Twin contained to 'transfer' to such a BLUE deck, but..we both know there is no point.
Please, at least show the common decency to acknowledge what we are discussing with 'blue decks'.
Lies, damn lies, and statistics I suppose.
Spirits