I feel like half the reason a preordain unban seems frightening is the quantity of one blue cantrips. If that's the case they should just ban visions and unban preordain. Would combo decks having scry before draw instead really push them that hard?
This isn't necessarily directed to you, but rather to anyone who is worried about Preordain. Also, apologies if someone responded to this question already and I missed it on a previous page.
Please point to the specific combo decks which Preordain might break. Include their metagame shares currently and/or historically. Then, please explain why those decks are problematic given those metagame shares.
I ask this question because I hear lots of worry about decks like Storm, Cheeri0s, Griselbrand, Ad Nauseam, Scapeshift, etc., but all of those decks seem to lack the metagame share to be problematic. Sure, Preordain would boost them, but it seems very unlikely that they would receive huge boosts relative to the other decks which benefited from Preordain. In my experience, fear of Preordain is based on a largely unsupported, general fear of blue-based combo decks that aren't really that bad in Modern these days.
I'd just like to mention, that these same "fears of combo decks rising to power" where shared with the topic of an Ancestral Visions unban, and just look at how that all turned out.
Eh? While I recall some worries about Scapeshift or Splinter Twin running Ancestral Vision (much more about Twin than Scapeshift), I don't think there were any real worries about it being run in combo decks outside of those. The paranoia was about how it could make control decks overpowered (which turned out to be hilariously incorrect), not combo... and even the two combo decks I cited had strong control elements. I don't recall anyone trying to claim Ancestral Vision would go in any "true" combo decks, at least not here.
I feel like half the reason a preordain unban seems frightening is the quantity of one blue cantrips. If that's the case they should just ban visions and unban preordain. Would combo decks having scry before draw instead really push them that hard?
This isn't necessarily directed to you, but rather to anyone who is worried about Preordain. Also, apologies if someone responded to this question already and I missed it on a previous page.
Please point to the specific combo decks which Preordain might break. Include their metagame shares currently and/or historically. Then, please explain why those decks are problematic given those metagame shares.
I ask this question because I hear lots of worry about decks like Storm, Cheeri0s, Griselbrand, Ad Nauseam, Scapeshift, etc., but all of those decks seem to lack the metagame share to be problematic. Sure, Preordain would boost them, but it seems very unlikely that they would receive huge boosts relative to the other decks which benefited from Preordain. In my experience, fear of Preordain is based on a largely unsupported, general fear of blue-based combo decks that aren't really that bad in Modern these days.
Took the words out of my mouth
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Seems odd to have people in this thread who are very anti-unban-Jace because they opine it would do nothing to the format. If that's the case, then what is the rationale for the card being on the ban list in the first place?
Seems odd to have people in this thread who are very anti-unban-Jace because they opine it would do nothing to the format. If that's the case, then what is the rationale for the card being on the ban list in the first place?
I think for a lot of people who hold this opinion, the fear is that they will unban Jace in lieu of something else like Preordain, which would mean that we would have to wait until the next ban list announcement to see if they unban something more useful to combat the meta if Jace proves to provide little impact. I'd imagine that for most people who want to keep Jace banned despite believing he would have little impact, if he came off alongside other tools like SFM and Preordain, there would be little to no complaint
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Decks
Modern: UWUW Control UBRGrixis Shadow URIzzet Phoenix
Seems odd to have people in this thread who are very anti-unban-Jace because they opine it would do nothing to the format. If that's the case, then what is the rationale for the card being on the ban list in the first place?
I think for a lot of people who hold this opinion, the fear is that they will unban Jace in lieu of something else like Preordain, which would mean that we would have to wait until the next ban list announcement to see if they unban something more useful to combat the meta if Jace proves to provide little impact. I'd imagine that for most people who want to keep Jace banned despite believing he would have little impact, if he came off alongside other tools like SFM and Preordain, there would be little to no complaint
That's a solid point. It would suck to have cards that don't belong because Wizards is too scared to let multiple cards that could fit into the same archetype off at the same time. Remember the fear of Sword of the Meek helping Lantern too much? Well, Lantern did in fact win another GP, finally, without the slightest consideration for Sword. Interesting.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Seems odd to have people in this thread who are very anti-unban-Jace because they opine it would do nothing to the format. If that's the case, then what is the rationale for the card being on the ban list in the first place?
I think for a lot of people who hold this opinion, the fear is that they will unban Jace in lieu of something else like Preordain, which would mean that we would have to wait until the next ban list announcement to see if they unban something more useful to combat the meta if Jace proves to provide little impact. I'd imagine that for most people who want to keep Jace banned despite believing he would have little impact, if he came off alongside other tools like SFM and Preordain, there would be little to no complaint
I don't understand why anyone is anti-unban the cards that where the victims of the initial ban lists.
Remember Jace is banned because of cawblade, by the same logic current standard cards should be banned.
Stoneforge, cawblade again.
Jite, banned because it supposedly would be OP with stoneforge and stoneforge was the more fun card. Stoneforge was allowed in one of the test tournaments, but jite stayed banned even with it's justification also banned.
Artifact lands, banned because they would supposedly be too power in combination with metal craft (remember scars block was the current set), but for some reason mox opal is just fine.
All those things where supposedly too strong to even be considered for play, but then all those early tournaments where smash by infect, storm and other combo.
Looking at basically every card banned since the initial list, every one of them is a combo piece or a combo enabler, but for some reason wizards and many other people are holding on to this irrational fear that blue control is 1 card away from making modern a 1 deck format.
Seems odd to have people in this thread who are very anti-unban-Jace because they opine it would do nothing to the format. If that's the case, then what is the rationale for the card being on the ban list in the first place?
I think for a lot of people who hold this opinion, the fear is that they will unban Jace in lieu of something else like Preordain, which would mean that we would have to wait until the next ban list announcement to see if they unban something more useful to combat the meta if Jace proves to provide little impact. I'd imagine that for most people who want to keep Jace banned despite believing he would have little impact, if he came off alongside other tools like SFM and Preordain, there would be little to no complaint
I don't understand why anyone is anti-unban the cards that where the victims of the initial ban lists.
Remember Jace is banned because of cawblade, by the same logic current standard cards should be banned.
Stoneforge, cawblade again.
Jite, banned because it supposedly would be OP with stoneforge and stoneforge was the more fun card. Stoneforge was allowed in one of the test tournaments, but jite stayed banned even with it's justification also banned.
Artifact lands, banned because they would supposedly be too power in combination with metal craft (remember scars block was the current set), but for some reason mox opal is just fine.
All those things where supposedly too strong to even be considered for play, but then all those early tournaments where smash by infect, storm and other combo.
Looking at basically every card banned since the initial list, every one of them is a combo piece or a combo enabler, but for some reason wizards and many other people are holding on to this irrational fear that blue control is 1 card away from making modern a 1 deck format.
Jitte is the most powerful piece of equipment ever printed. Second place would be Skullclamp, which is less equipment and more sac/draw engine.
It doesn't belong anywhere the same area of ban discussion as Jace or SFM.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Seems odd to have people in this thread who are very anti-unban-Jace because they opine it would do nothing to the format. If that's the case, then what is the rationale for the card being on the ban list in the first place?
I think for a lot of people who hold this opinion, the fear is that they will unban Jace in lieu of something else like Preordain, which would mean that we would have to wait until the next ban list announcement to see if they unban something more useful to combat the meta if Jace proves to provide little impact. I'd imagine that for most people who want to keep Jace banned despite believing he would have little impact, if he came off alongside other tools like SFM and Preordain, there would be little to no complaint
I don't understand why anyone is anti-unban the cards that where the victims of the initial ban lists.
Remember Jace is banned because of cawblade, by the same logic current standard cards should be banned.
Stoneforge, cawblade again.
Jite, banned because it supposedly would be OP with stoneforge and stoneforge was the more fun card. Stoneforge was allowed in one of the test tournaments, but jite stayed banned even with it's justification also banned.
Artifact lands, banned because they would supposedly be too power in combination with metal craft (remember scars block was the current set), but for some reason mox opal is just fine.
All those things where supposedly too strong to even be considered for play, but then all those early tournaments where smash by infect, storm and other combo.
Looking at basically every card banned since the initial list, every one of them is a combo piece or a combo enabler, but for some reason wizards and many other people are holding on to this irrational fear that blue control is 1 card away from making modern a 1 deck format.
Jitte is the most powerful piece of equipment ever printed. Second place would be Skullclamp, which is less equipment and more sac/draw engine.
It doesn't belong anywhere the same area of ban discussion as Jace or SFM.
Sure it does.
1) As with the above it was never allowed to be played in modern.
2) "Most powerful ever" of a card type that sees almost no play in modern is not exactly that intimidating.
1) As with the above it was never allowed to be played in modern.
2) "Most powerful ever" of a card type that sees almost no play in modern is not exactly that intimidating.
You play 4 Jitte in your deck. I play 4 in mine. I am on the play and get mine online first. Who wins?
You play 4 Jitte in your deck. I play 0 or don't draw it. Who wins?
These scenarios are enough to make Jitte too busted for Modern. Not to mention, there are so many decks affected by creature combat. Admittedly, it's not super good against Tron, Titan Shift, Grishoalbrand, and some other Combo decks, but even Birthing Pod was not or wouldn't be super good against those decks.
Skullclamp is just seriously busted. It is probably the 2nd most busted card in the whole Modern (legal and banned) card pool, outside of Mental Misstep.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Seems odd to have people in this thread who are very anti-unban-Jace because they opine it would do nothing to the format. If that's the case, then what is the rationale for the card being on the ban list in the first place?
I think for a lot of people who hold this opinion, the fear is that they will unban Jace in lieu of something else like Preordain, which would mean that we would have to wait until the next ban list announcement to see if they unban something more useful to combat the meta if Jace proves to provide little impact. I'd imagine that for most people who want to keep Jace banned despite believing he would have little impact, if he came off alongside other tools like SFM and Preordain, there would be little to no complaint
I don't understand why anyone is anti-unban the cards that where the victims of the initial ban lists.
Remember Jace is banned because of cawblade, by the same logic current standard cards should be banned.
Stoneforge, cawblade again.
Jite, banned because it supposedly would be OP with stoneforge and stoneforge was the more fun card. Stoneforge was allowed in one of the test tournaments, but jite stayed banned even with it's justification also banned.
Artifact lands, banned because they would supposedly be too power in combination with metal craft (remember scars block was the current set), but for some reason mox opal is just fine.
All those things where supposedly too strong to even be considered for play, but then all those early tournaments where smash by infect, storm and other combo.
Looking at basically every card banned since the initial list, every one of them is a combo piece or a combo enabler, but for some reason wizards and many other people are holding on to this irrational fear that blue control is 1 card away from making modern a 1 deck format.
Jitte is the most powerful piece of equipment ever printed. Second place would be Skullclamp, which is less equipment and more sac/draw engine.
It doesn't belong anywhere the same area of ban discussion as Jace or SFM.
I take it you have never played with skullclamp if you rate it weaker than Jitte.
Don't get me wrong Jitte needs to stay on the banned list, however Skullclamp would probably be the first or 2nd card with Mental Misstep I would add to the modern banlist when creating the format.
It doesn't matter if skullclamp or jitte is more powerful, they're both busted ass cards for format. Period. The whole notion of these two cards should be dropped
Remember Jace is banned because of cawblade, by the same logic current standard cards should be banned.
Stoneforge, cawblade again.
Jite, banned because it supposedly would be OP with stoneforge and stoneforge was the more fun card. Stoneforge was allowed in one of the test tournaments, but jite stayed banned even with it's justification also banned.
Artifact lands, banned because they would supposedly be too power in combination with metal craft (remember scars block was the current set), but for some reason mox opal is just fine.
All those things where supposedly too strong to even be considered for play, but then all those early tournaments where smash by infect, storm and other combo.
While I agree with your point in general, I'm confused by your appeal to Affinity. Where's the dissonance between the banning of the artifact lands but Mox Opal being fine? They wanted to hit something in Affinity and chose the artifact lands. With those banned, there wasn't any need to ban anything else. It's like wondering why they didn't ban Vampire Hexmage along with Dark Depths.
Also, I should point out that Affinity was a major contender back in those early days as well, though it was a bit more "combo-ish" by running Atog and Fling.
I don't like Jace, The Mind Sculptor at all. He is great at winning all of the midrange decks, and can be from mediocre to useless vs decks like Tron, Valakut, Scapeshift, Infect, Affinity, Burn, Dredge, Boggles, Tokens etc.
Yes, some time he will be fatesealing midrange decks out of the game. Will that be a fun element? No. Will Jace make URx decks better at winning vs big mana decks or even aggro decks hitting from different angles? No.
Ktkenshinx said a lot of times already that URx's decks fall reason is not Tron/Valakut/Eldrazi but that URx (or U-based control/attrition decks) are simply not good enough and this is highlighted by the fact that BGx is still doing GREAT despite the fact that Big mana decks and other attrition natural predators exist in the format.
So, can anyone tell me:
How the heck Jace, The Mind Sculptor will help URx control/attrition decks win their bad matchups?
On top of that, how will the card help if a respectable portion of Modern's meta rises to the ocassion and tries to go under him or ignore him? Meaning move away from decks like Jund and play Abzan Midrange(Lingering Souls can still wreck him apart) or play Tron, or RG Valakut/Titanshift variations, or Bant Eldrazi, or Burn, etc?
Blue based control/attrition decks were good only once during Modern's history. With Splinter Twin. Those decks need A kind of FAST(not turn 4 violator) win con button in the vast sea of Modern's linearity. Do you think Splinter Twin is too good? Unban it and ban Deceiver Exarch. But even that is not necessary imo. Just give Splinter Twin.
Honestly, Jace's +2 seems really good against Tron and other big mana decks that rely heavily on topdecks once they get to the midgame, and generally win based on the strength of their topdecks.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I don't like Jace, The Mind Sculptor at all. He is great at winning all of the midrange decks, and can be from mediocre to useless vs decks like Tron, Valakut, Scapeshift, Infect, Affinity, Burn, Dredge, Boggles, Tokens etc.
Yes, some time he will be fatesealing midrange decks out of the game. Will that be a fun element? No. Will Jace make URx decks better at winning vs big mana decks or even aggro decks hitting from different angles? No.
Ktkenshinx said a lot of times already that URx's decks fall reason is not Tron/Valakut/Eldrazi but that URx (or U-based control/attrition decks) are simply not good enough and this is highlighted by the fact that BGx is still doing GREAT despite the fact that Big mana decks and other attrition natural predators exist in the format.
So, can anyone tell me:
How the heck Jace, The Mind Sculptor will help URx control/attrition decks win their bad matchups?
On top of that, how will the card help if a respectable portion of Modern's meta rises to the ocassion and tries to go under him or ignore him? Meaning move away from decks like Jund and play Abzan Midrange(Lingering Souls can still wreck him apart) or play Tron, or RG Valakut/Titanshift variations, or Bant Eldrazi, or Burn, etc?
Blue based control/attrition decks were good only once during Modern's history. With Splinter Twin. Those decks need A kind of FAST(not turn 4 violator) win con button in the vast sea of Modern's linearity. Do you think Splinter Twin is too good? Unban it and ban Deceiver Exarch. But even that is not necessary imo. Just give Splinter Twin.
Honestly, Jace's +2 seems really good against Tron and other big mana decks that rely heavily on topdecks once they get to the midgame, and generally win based on the strength of their topdecks.
I don't really agree that it's that good. The redundancy of Tron means one fateseal per turn is likely just to dig them into another piece of gas or way of finding said piece of gas, and tapping down 2UU to cast him for that effect is begging to get your face stomped in. Although admittedly he's good against a resolved Wurmcoil Engine.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Yikes, back to Jitte? No thanks. Modern doesn't need all creature-based strategies to homogenize around Jitte wars. The first step consists of creature vs. creature battles devolving into "who sticks Jitte" battles. The second step consists of the metagame shifting to the 1-2 best Jitte decks, and all the non-creature decks that can beat the Jitte decks. In that regard, Jitte is a diversity reducer. There are much better options for increasing format health and diversity.
Jitte is a much more potent Deathrite Shaman (not necessarily as fast depending on the deck, but still has the potential to be equally fast in some) and it's colorless (and an artifact for extra salt). I'll rather see DRS off the list if forced to choose between the two and to me DRS still solidly deserves its stay on the list compared to a bunch of other cards. So simply put, no Jitte.
As for Preordain, it's simple. I said in my previous post - we're in a world of fast-Modern, 8 Tarmogoyfs and 8 Thoughtseizes, what is exactly wrong with having 8 1-mana cantrips? Considering the speed of the format Ancestral Vision is too slow and arguably the equivalent of what Despise is to the 8 discard spells. If there are decks dominating with 8 cantrips, find the other components and remove them, the same way Jund lost DRS (and BBE). Cheerios too powerful with 8 cantrips? Either cripple one of the other draw engines (Sram/Paladin) or if need be the engine (Retract). They already did this pre-preemptively with Twin by removing Twin itself, I've reached the point I simply don't see why they're durdling with opening the second gate of diversity the first gate failed to deliver on.
But then again, they just failed this scenario recently (GGT being hit instead of the GY returners), so I think it's an issue that we need to communicate with them that they're doing the first step right (unbanning the harmless half of cards that synergize) but addressing the following steps wrongly (not identifying the actual harmful half cards). Although I feel like the whole Dredge thing was because they applied the "Birthing Pod" formula to it (basically they're more likely to print more GY returners rather than Dredge itself), but that formula doesn't work because of the mechanics of the deck.
Yikes, back to Jitte? No thanks. Modern doesn't need all creature-based strategies to homogenize around Jitte wars. The first step consists of creature vs. creature battles devolving into "who sticks Jitte" battles. The second step consists of the metagame shifting to the 1-2 best Jitte decks, and all the non-creature decks that can beat the Jitte decks. In that regard, Jitte is a diversity reducer. There are much better options for increasing format health and diversity.
No sarcasm or anything of the kind intended here but, so sfm+batterskull is acceptable to a lot of people in this thread, because in modern there's all sort of ways of dealing with it, kcommand, incidental artifact hate, push, etc. But jitte would single handedly demolish the format? So, some people seem able to deal with a batterskull on t3, but not with a jitte on the same turn?
Also, and in regards to the quote, I imagine, since a lot of people have issues with modern turning into a 'creature sideways' format that jitte would then be able to solve that issue to a great extent?
Jitte is a much more potent Deathrite Shaman (not necessarily as fast depending on the deck, but still has the potential to be equally fast in some) and it's colorless (and an artifact for extra salt). I'll rather see DRS off the list if forced to choose between the two and to me DRS still solidly deserves its stay on the list compared to a bunch of other cards. So simply put, no Jitte....
Nothing to do with it. DRS is a 1 mana planeswalker that can shotgun your opponent (see legacy elves), can save your bacon through life gain, controls your opponent's gy shenanigans and accelerates you to a t2 lili. Jitte, well, kills vanilla aggro decks.
I probably shouldn't open my big mouth, but what if Deathrite Shaman gets spoiled in MM2017? Does this mean that there will be unban hype?
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Yikes, back to Jitte? No thanks. Modern doesn't need all creature-based strategies to homogenize around Jitte wars. The first step consists of creature vs. creature battles devolving into "who sticks Jitte" battles. The second step consists of the metagame shifting to the 1-2 best Jitte decks, and all the non-creature decks that can beat the Jitte decks. In that regard, Jitte is a diversity reducer. There are much better options for increasing format health and diversity.
No sarcasm or anything of the kind intended here but, so sfm+batterskull is acceptable to a lot of people in this thread, because in modern there's all sort of ways of dealing with it, kcommand, incidental artifact hate, push, etc. But jitte would single handedly demolish the format? So, some people seem able to deal with a batterskull on t3, but not with a jitte on the same turn?
Also, and in regards to the quote, I imagine, since a lot of people have issues with modern turning into a 'creature sideways' format that jitte would then be able to solve that issue to a great extent?
SFM doesn't degenerate all creature decks into SFM mirrors. Jitte does. SFM also helps out two colors that are struggling (white and blue). Jitte just goes into whatever the best creature-based deck is and makes it even better.
Even if we talk about how easy/hard it is to answer a card, SFM is significantly easier to answer than Jitte. The only decks that can reliably answer Jitte with maindeck cards are BGx strategies (Decay, Pulse, K-Command, discard). Any deck playing removal can kill SFM. I don't actually care about how easy/hard something is to answer in a vacuum, but if we want to argue that point, SFM still wins over Jitte.
Yikes, back to Jitte? No thanks. Modern doesn't need all creature-based strategies to homogenize around Jitte wars. The first step consists of creature vs. creature battles devolving into "who sticks Jitte" battles. The second step consists of the metagame shifting to the 1-2 best Jitte decks, and all the non-creature decks that can beat the Jitte decks. In that regard, Jitte is a diversity reducer. There are much better options for increasing format health and diversity.
No sarcasm or anything of the kind intended here but, so sfm+batterskull is acceptable to a lot of people in this thread, because in modern there's all sort of ways of dealing with it, kcommand, incidental artifact hate, push, etc. But jitte would single handedly demolish the format? So, some people seem able to deal with a batterskull on t3, but not with a jitte on the same turn?
Also, and in regards to the quote, I imagine, since a lot of people have issues with modern turning into a 'creature sideways' format that jitte would then be able to solve that issue to a great extent?
SFM doesn't degenerate all creature decks into SFM mirrors. Jitte does. SFM also helps out two colors that are struggling (white and blue). Jitte just goes into whatever the best creature-based deck is and makes it even better.
Even if we talk about how easy/hard it is to answer a card, SFM is significantly easier to answer than Jitte. The only decks that can reliably answer Jitte with maindeck cards are BGx strategies (Decay, Pulse, K-Command, discard). Any deck playing removal can kill SFM. I don't actually care about how easy/hard something is to answer in a vacuum, but if we want to argue that point, SFM still wins over Jitte.
Any deck playing removal (ie, nearly 100% of modern) can also deal with jitte. Jitte needs to be equipped and have a ready critter to attack, that needs to connect.
And when you say that SFM won't turn things into mirrors, but will help ux, it will also help any colour combination that includes w and can slot it. You will have a ton of sfm mirrors.
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Eh? While I recall some worries about Scapeshift or Splinter Twin running Ancestral Vision (much more about Twin than Scapeshift), I don't think there were any real worries about it being run in combo decks outside of those. The paranoia was about how it could make control decks overpowered (which turned out to be hilariously incorrect), not combo... and even the two combo decks I cited had strong control elements. I don't recall anyone trying to claim Ancestral Vision would go in any "true" combo decks, at least not here.
Took the words out of my mouth
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Modern:
UWUW Control
UBRGrixis Shadow
URIzzet Phoenix
That's a solid point. It would suck to have cards that don't belong because Wizards is too scared to let multiple cards that could fit into the same archetype off at the same time. Remember the fear of Sword of the Meek helping Lantern too much? Well, Lantern did in fact win another GP, finally, without the slightest consideration for Sword. Interesting.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I don't understand why anyone is anti-unban the cards that where the victims of the initial ban lists.
Remember Jace is banned because of cawblade, by the same logic current standard cards should be banned.
Stoneforge, cawblade again.
Jite, banned because it supposedly would be OP with stoneforge and stoneforge was the more fun card. Stoneforge was allowed in one of the test tournaments, but jite stayed banned even with it's justification also banned.
Artifact lands, banned because they would supposedly be too power in combination with metal craft (remember scars block was the current set), but for some reason mox opal is just fine.
All those things where supposedly too strong to even be considered for play, but then all those early tournaments where smash by infect, storm and other combo.
Looking at basically every card banned since the initial list, every one of them is a combo piece or a combo enabler, but for some reason wizards and many other people are holding on to this irrational fear that blue control is 1 card away from making modern a 1 deck format.
Jitte is the most powerful piece of equipment ever printed. Second place would be Skullclamp, which is less equipment and more sac/draw engine.
It doesn't belong anywhere the same area of ban discussion as Jace or SFM.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Sure it does.
1) As with the above it was never allowed to be played in modern.
2) "Most powerful ever" of a card type that sees almost no play in modern is not exactly that intimidating.
If splinter twin were unbanned in the banning announcements,
Do you guys feel UR Twin would still rein supreme, or would fatal push make it the better deck now?
You play 4 Jitte in your deck. I play 4 in mine. I am on the play and get mine online first. Who wins?
You play 4 Jitte in your deck. I play 0 or don't draw it. Who wins?
These scenarios are enough to make Jitte too busted for Modern. Not to mention, there are so many decks affected by creature combat. Admittedly, it's not super good against Tron, Titan Shift, Grishoalbrand, and some other Combo decks, but even Birthing Pod was not or wouldn't be super good against those decks.
Skullclamp is just seriously busted. It is probably the 2nd most busted card in the whole Modern (legal and banned) card pool, outside of Mental Misstep.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I take it you have never played with skullclamp if you rate it weaker than Jitte.
Don't get me wrong Jitte needs to stay on the banned list, however Skullclamp would probably be the first or 2nd card with Mental Misstep I would add to the modern banlist when creating the format.
How? The card is most powerful in aggro and creature decks!
While I agree with your point in general, I'm confused by your appeal to Affinity. Where's the dissonance between the banning of the artifact lands but Mox Opal being fine? They wanted to hit something in Affinity and chose the artifact lands. With those banned, there wasn't any need to ban anything else. It's like wondering why they didn't ban Vampire Hexmage along with Dark Depths.
Also, I should point out that Affinity was a major contender back in those early days as well, though it was a bit more "combo-ish" by running Atog and Fling.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I don't really agree that it's that good. The redundancy of Tron means one fateseal per turn is likely just to dig them into another piece of gas or way of finding said piece of gas, and tapping down 2UU to cast him for that effect is begging to get your face stomped in. Although admittedly he's good against a resolved Wurmcoil Engine.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
As for Preordain, it's simple. I said in my previous post - we're in a world of fast-Modern, 8 Tarmogoyfs and 8 Thoughtseizes, what is exactly wrong with having 8 1-mana cantrips? Considering the speed of the format Ancestral Vision is too slow and arguably the equivalent of what Despise is to the 8 discard spells. If there are decks dominating with 8 cantrips, find the other components and remove them, the same way Jund lost DRS (and BBE). Cheerios too powerful with 8 cantrips? Either cripple one of the other draw engines (Sram/Paladin) or if need be the engine (Retract). They already did this pre-preemptively with Twin by removing Twin itself, I've reached the point I simply don't see why they're durdling with opening the second gate of diversity the first gate failed to deliver on.
But then again, they just failed this scenario recently (GGT being hit instead of the GY returners), so I think it's an issue that we need to communicate with them that they're doing the first step right (unbanning the harmless half of cards that synergize) but addressing the following steps wrongly (not identifying the actual harmful half cards). Although I feel like the whole Dredge thing was because they applied the "Birthing Pod" formula to it (basically they're more likely to print more GY returners rather than Dredge itself), but that formula doesn't work because of the mechanics of the deck.
No sarcasm or anything of the kind intended here but, so sfm+batterskull is acceptable to a lot of people in this thread, because in modern there's all sort of ways of dealing with it, kcommand, incidental artifact hate, push, etc. But jitte would single handedly demolish the format? So, some people seem able to deal with a batterskull on t3, but not with a jitte on the same turn?
Also, and in regards to the quote, I imagine, since a lot of people have issues with modern turning into a 'creature sideways' format that jitte would then be able to solve that issue to a great extent?
Nothing to do with it. DRS is a 1 mana planeswalker that can shotgun your opponent (see legacy elves), can save your bacon through life gain, controls your opponent's gy shenanigans and accelerates you to a t2 lili. Jitte, well, kills vanilla aggro decks.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)SFM doesn't degenerate all creature decks into SFM mirrors. Jitte does. SFM also helps out two colors that are struggling (white and blue). Jitte just goes into whatever the best creature-based deck is and makes it even better.
Even if we talk about how easy/hard it is to answer a card, SFM is significantly easier to answer than Jitte. The only decks that can reliably answer Jitte with maindeck cards are BGx strategies (Decay, Pulse, K-Command, discard). Any deck playing removal can kill SFM. I don't actually care about how easy/hard something is to answer in a vacuum, but if we want to argue that point, SFM still wins over Jitte.
Any deck playing removal (ie, nearly 100% of modern) can also deal with jitte. Jitte needs to be equipped and have a ready critter to attack, that needs to connect.
And when you say that SFM won't turn things into mirrors, but will help ux, it will also help any colour combination that includes w and can slot it. You will have a ton of sfm mirrors.