You guys are arguing over MTG becoming an eSport through one format, as if it can't be split. One of the most entertaining tournaments/streams I've seen for MTG in a LONG time was the recent SCG Team Constructed format in Baltimore, where you had Standard, Modern, and Legacy players form a team and play together. It kept the stream interesting because you had a variety of decks all day, and the variance even had the casters more involved and energized making for better banter and commentary. At the end of the day, a stream or tournament is only going to be as interesting as you make it. Coming from a background of other sports, I've seen some of the biggest competitions go unnoticed or fade into obscurity because of disorganization and lack of enthusiasm and hype around the event, while smaller competitions flourish because they're organized by people who truly love the sport and put their maximum effort into organizing it. There's so much more that goes into MTG becoming an eSport than the card pool.
Moderns success as a format hinging on it being viable from an eSports aspect is a joke. Other people already pointed out how poker thrives yet it plays off the same old game every time. It's a bad example because MTG is a niche where poker is more widely understood, but the idea of support around the game vs the game itself still holds.
Your posts are the most consistently baseless I see on this forum, and frankly you theories are as nonsensical as they are antagonistic.
Because.... Snip... How can you even think that... Snip.... This isn't speculation, it's common sense.
Colt, if I may:
I raise this in a non-judgmental way, truly, but I believe our mutual friend here has become frustrated with way you are delivering your comments, as highlighted above. The reason is easy to miss, as most people don't self-edit themselves in an analytical way.
Basically; what you may see as common sense or intuitive is not necessarily evident to others, nor is it necessarily correct. Every time you make an assertion using this sort of tone, you are making a series of unseen logical leaps to reach your "common sense" standpoint. Those leaps may not ever be individually processed by you, it may occur to you spontaneously and therefore *seem* common sense, but they aren't. You have your own world view, influenced by your limited window of experience into your environment. Neither you, nor anyone else has complete or perfect information. What may seem perfectly obvious to you might completely disagree with the facts at someone else's disposal.
As was ever thus. It's something you'll have to consider when pushing your statements on this forum in the kind of tone that strongly suggests you are reciting some kind of immutable fact.
Like I said, no judgement. I don't really care what you wrote. Just offering some constructive insight as to why others may have taken issue with the *way* you said it.
Hope I've been helpful. I do realise that there's a risk that comments like these can come across as arrogant, and I truly don't mean it as such.
Peace out guys.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I never said the format sucks. I love it right now. I was just stating there is a group of players unhappy at the direction of the format. Most have been since its inception.
It's clearly the best.
Which is bad for the game over all. I am not just talking about Modern, but all formats and the game in general.
Quote from MothaFlippin »
I see no long-lasting future for Modern... well, I mean, it will likely be played forever* but it will quickly become another Legacy. Abandoned, obscure for new players, and too elitist/expensive for new players to ever get into it.
All formats other then Standard will take this route. Even if Frontier becomes a sanctioned format. Wotc has to have Standard the #1 format in the brand. It sells the most product and is the reasoning for new sets. Without Standard, we dont get new toys to play with. Without those new toys to sell, LGS start closing across the country. It becomes harder to find some place to play for any format.
Magic is the #1 seller for almost every LGS. Some may supplement their sales with other things such as used video games, board games, or puzzles, but without Magic, those LGS die a miserable death.
On the Esport issue. Almost every game made into a television friendly version has made the game simpler or in other words, its dumbed down the game. I am not sure Magic can survive that kind of change just to draw in a few more viewers/players. Leave the esports for games that are meant for the televison, video games.
It would probably be T2, the Wizard's Version of "Frontier" and, likely, Limited Sealed decks.
Why would Wizards make a new non-rotating format to boost a multi-format team sport when Modern is already well-known and extremely popular? That doesn't make any sense. I'm sure one day we'll get an intermediate format between Standard and Modern, but that's far in the distance. Right now, if you're Wizards and you're trying to build a team experience, you're going to turn to your hallmark nonrotating format, not make a new one and hope people buy into it.
I see no long-lasting future for Modern... well, I mean, it will likely be played forever* but it will quickly become another Legacy. Abandoned, obscure for new players, and too elitist/expensive for new players to ever get into it.
This is borderline format bashing. Please keep it constructive.
More specifically, this post is pessimistic, alarmist, and wholly negative, all without any evidence or grounding to support your claims. If you're going to post about Modern longevity issues, you need to support your arguments with some actual sources or evidence. You also need to be in dialogue with the counter-arguments. Just claiming it will be "Abandoned" and become "elitist/expensive" doesn't cut it and doesn't really meet the bar for constructive discussion.
It would probably be T2, the Wizard's Version of "Frontier" and, likely, Limited Sealed decks.
Why would Wizards make a new non-rotating format to boost a multi-format team sport when Modern is already well-known and extremely popular? That doesn't make any sense. I'm sure one day we'll get an intermediate format between Standard and Modern, but that's far in the distance. Right now, if you're Wizards and you're trying to build a team experience, you're going to turn to your hallmark nonrotating format, not make a new one and hope people buy into it.
I see no long-lasting future for Modern... well, I mean, it will likely be played forever* but it will quickly become another Legacy. Abandoned, obscure for new players, and too elitist/expensive for new players to ever get into it.
This is borderline format bashing. Please keep it constructive.
More specifically, this post is pessimistic, alarmist, and wholly negative, all without any evidence or grounding to support your claims. If you're going to post about Modern longevity issues, you need to support your arguments with some actual sources or evidence. You also need to be in dialogue with the counter-arguments. Just claiming it will be "Abandoned" and become "elitist/expensive" doesn't cut it and doesn't really meet the bar for constructive discussion.
From the look of things WoTC is looking to improve the game design and make a better non-paper format for the e-sports version. At least that is what I was taking away from the press conference leaks and what information we got on MTG Digital Next, the later being more of a studio. Paper magic is going to keep existing as it is with larger print runs and most likely more reprints, as they've probably learned from Aether Revolt that they need at least some kind of modern reprint in the standard set to help improve the EV. However, all of this is anecdotal at best since we can only go off of what information they have posted and what we've been seeing in print runs over the last year.
As for a new non-rotating format: They definitely have one in the works. Modern is hard for them to really support and bring new players into due to many factors, some of which were out of their own control such as the recession. If they make a new format it's going to be about making a baseline experience people can readily return to from standard, more than the current non-rotating format of modern where it acts more as a pure repository of old cards with little care towards catering towards a specific kind of experience.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
... This is borderline format bashing. Please keep it constructive.
More specifically, this post is pessimistic, alarmist, and wholly negative, all without any evidence or grounding to support your claims. If you're going to post about Modern longevity issues, you need to support your arguments with some actual sources or evidence. You also need to be in dialogue with the counter-arguments. Just claiming it will be "Abandoned" and become "elitist/expensive" doesn't cut it and doesn't really meet the bar for constructive discussion.
Isn't that actually called 'my opinion'?
I mean, we are on a thread where people grab half-a-dozen published results and extrapolate that information for the worldwide modern meta-game. Is that any more substantiated? Yeah, like a 10 people survey in an universe of 10 million. looks good on paper, in the small print under a tv commercial.
From the look of things WoTC is looking to improve the game design and make a better non-paper format for the e-sports version. At least that is what I was taking away from the press conference leaks and what information we got on MTG Digital Next, the later being more of a studio. Paper magic is going to keep existing as it is with larger print runs and most likely more reprints, as they've probably learned from Aether Revolt that they need at least some kind of modern reprint in the standard set to help improve the EV. However, all of this is anecdotal at best since we can only go off of what information they have posted and what we've been seeing in print runs over the last year.
In most cases, players just project their own fears and/or hopes onto Digital Next. It's everything we want it to be or everything we fear it will be. We just don't have enough information about it so it can be whatever we want it to be to advance our own argument. Unless you or others have better sources about Digital Next, it shouldn't factor into our Modern conversation at all. It's just too speculative.
As for a new non-rotating format: They definitely have one in the works. Modern is hard for them to really support and bring new players into due to many factors, some of which were out of their own control such as the recession. If they make a new format it's going to be about making a baseline experience people can readily return to from standard, more than the current non-rotating format of modern where it acts more as a pure repository of old cards with little care towards catering towards a specific kind of experience.
Again, it doesn't make sense for them to make a new non-rotating format when they already have one that is successful. It wouldn't solve any of their problems. If the issue is that Standard players aren't bringing their decks/cards over from Standard to Modern, the new format only solves that in the short term. 1-2 years out, it would be just as settled as Modern; that's what happens with non-rotating formats. If the issue is that Modern doesn't drive sales, a new non-rotating format wouldn't address that either. Once the format settles, new products wouldn't be absorbed as easily.
If Wizards wants to solve Standard's problems, it needs to fix the broken Standard. It does not need to break everything around Standard so Standard appears fixed by comparison. Modern has longevity because there will always be a desire for a non-rotating format, and Wizards can support Modern in the long-term to an extent it can't support Legacy or Vintage.
I know it's only a vocal minority in this thread, but I'm really disheartened to see that same small vocal contingent continually suggest Modern is in trouble. Especially when they rarely have any evidence, let alone compelling evidence.
... This is borderline format bashing. Please keep it constructive.
More specifically, this post is pessimistic, alarmist, and wholly negative, all without any evidence or grounding to support your claims. If you're going to post about Modern longevity issues, you need to support your arguments with some actual sources or evidence. You also need to be in dialogue with the counter-arguments. Just claiming it will be "Abandoned" and become "elitist/expensive" doesn't cut it and doesn't really meet the bar for constructive discussion.
Isn't that actually called 'my opinion'?
I mean, we are on a thread where people grab half-a-dozen published results and extrapolate that information for the worldwide modern meta-game. Is that any more substantiated? Yeah, like a 10 people survey in an universe of 10 million. looks good on paper, in the small print under a tv commercial.
There are very few forums where you can just write out your opinion. Ours is no exception. Forums are places for constructive discussion, which means you can only share opinions that are framed in a constructive manner, and are offered in such a way as to advance the discussion.
If one were to post a single line post of "Modern is dying," that would be spamming because it doesn't constructively advance the conversation. If one were to instead post "Modern is dying. Here's why:..." and then explain why they feel that's the case, it would more likely be within the thread's parameters.
The bar is not "does your post have statistically significant evidence or irrefutable support?" It's "does your post contribute to a constructive conversation?"
Not disagreeing on all the doomsaying. I may talk of moderns downsides a lot and the potential upsets a new non-rotating format will bring, but modern itself isn't going to go anywhere. If we really are heading into the age of mega reprints we may not even need something like frontier, as that format was a reaction to the lack of card supply in Japan and Asia. What will help the format a lot is if they can get the most played cards low enough to reprint in commander. If that happens they have more than one way to get older cards into regions outside of the US.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Now you are an expert on E-Sport development and game design to the point of telling us what Wizard intends Colt?
I remain, unconvinced.
I've been gaming for decades, and I played with and against the founding members of many of the E-Sports teams people may recognize if they play FPS games. Your analysis or thoughts on what Wizards wants to do, or is doing, to push E-Sports, is...questionable. I've also competed at a high level and found success in Sports, Table Top games, Magic, MMO's (server first raid guilds and so on) and FPS games.
The common thread between all of that and E-Sports?
E-Sports are successful, when players feel they could do it too, when they feel they could be part of it, OR when they have something to cheer for.
Nobody is going to get attached to Copy-Cat, to cheer for it to win, and tune in when its doing well, because it ROTATES.
On the flip side, people do get attached to Jund, or Storm, or Affinity, or Burn, and cheer for it (or if we are honest worry about it winning!) and tune in when its doing well BECAUSE ITS THEIR DECK TOO.
I dont cheer for Sam Black, but if Sam Black was on Twin, I would hope for him to win. Am I alone in that?
On the other hand Colt, you continue to parrot sound bites from pro's 'Oh its the variance of hoser cards' as if those statements hold validity in and of themselves. They do not.
Here are some true facts.
Standard is down. This is known. This is admitted to by Wizards staff on Twitter and in their articles, and they have a pretty good idea of why at this point.
Modern is not down. This is known. This is admitted to by Wizards staff on Twitter, Tumblr (Blogatog) and in their articles, as well as several articles from Pro's THIS WEEK ALONE. And you know what? All parties have a pretty good idea why.
Maro even posted why they are not 'pushing' Modern, because it doesnt need the help! Know what does? STANDARD.
So yeah they are going to cut back on Modern. Let SCG hold events, hold a few GP's, and let their partner Twitch showcase a varied and entertaining format for the game we enjoy. Will it last forever? Maybe not, few things do. Quake 3 was the greatest competitive FPS that existed (true facts), but players move on and with them, sponsors.
E-Sports require adoption by the public, to succeed. Magic is going to struggle because its trying to push a paper based product into the digital space that E-Sports commands, but if Wizards looks at the numbers, and does some critical thinking, well I dont worry about Modern.
Not disagreeing on all the doomsaying. I may talk of moderns downsides a lot and the potential upsets a new non-rotating format will bring, but modern itself isn't going to go anywhere. If we really are heading into the age of mega reprints we may not even need something like frontier, as that format was a reaction to the lack of card supply in Japan and Asia. What will help the format a lot is if they can get the most played cards low enough to reprint in commander. If that happens they have more than one way to get older cards into regions outside of the US.
I feel like the bolded is not true. Frontier was proposed and implemented by larger Asian shops to help unload rotated cards from recent standard sets. Some people have bought in due to lower cost/just having the cards around, but that doesn't change that it really was a marketing gimmick.
I am also unsure that MM17 is heralding an era of "mega reprints." Honestly, it is probably desirable for WotC that Modern has a more expensive buy-in; means it will cannibalize Standard sales less frequently. I agree with idSurge that modern's reduced support is more likely a sign of failed standard environments rather than any real concern about modern.
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Sig by Dark Night Cavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios!
didn't pay attention to this thread for a bit and had to read through maybe 10 pages of text. so I'll combine a few things in one to give my thoughts
I don't think they'll ban/unban anything for at least a few more months. They changed the format up for PT Oath of the Gatewatch, which warped the format so much they had to do it again after Shadows. Then they made more bans for Aether Revolt. so they've made 3 updates over the course of a year. I think they should just let the format settle for a year or two before making drastic changes again. I can see JTMS being fine in modern, power level wise. But I can see his price jumping. I don't know where I stand on SFM. With the power level of creatures ever growing, I think pod will stay on the banned list. That's all I really have to say in regards to the banned list.
as for the "Magic as an e-sport" discussion that was before, I think the one thing that restricts its ability to grow as an esport is the fact that you pretty much need to play in order to understand what's going on. There are so many decks that it would probably confuse outsiders almost. Plus formats like standard are always changing, so someone who played standard, say 5-7 years ago wouldn't know what decks are currently around. as much as I'd like to see it grow as an e-sport, I think its growth could be limited
Now you are an expert on E-Sport development and game design to the point of telling us what Wizard intends Colt?
I remain, unconvinced.
I've been gaming for decades, and I played with and against the founding members of many of the E-Sports teams people may recognize if they play FPS games. Your analysis or thoughts on what Wizards wants to do, or is doing, to push E-Sports, is...questionable. I've also competed at a high level and found success in Sports, Table Top games, Magic, MMO's (server first raid guilds and so on) and FPS games.
The common thread between all of that and E-Sports?
E-Sports are successful, when players feel they could do it too, when they feel they could be part of it, OR when they have something to cheer for.
Nobody is going to get attached to Copy-Cat, to cheer for it to win, and tune in when its doing well, because it ROTATES.
On the flip side, people do get attached to Jund, or Storm, or Affinity, or Burn, and cheer for it (or if we are honest worry about it winning!) and tune in when its doing well BECAUSE ITS THEIR DECK TOO.
I dont cheer for Sam Black, but if Sam Black was on Twin, I would hope for him to win. Am I alone in that?
On the other hand Colt, you continue to parrot sound bites from pro's 'Oh its the variance of hoser cards' as if those statements hold validity in and of themselves. They do not.
Here are some true facts.
Standard is down. This is known. This is admitted to by Wizards staff on Twitter and in their articles, and they have a pretty good idea of why at this point.
Modern is not down. This is known. This is admitted to by Wizards staff on Twitter, Tumblr (Blogatog) and in their articles, as well as several articles from Pro's THIS WEEK ALONE. And you know what? All parties have a pretty good idea why.
Maro even posted why they are not 'pushing' Modern, because it doesnt need the help! Know what does? STANDARD.
So yeah they are going to cut back on Modern. Let SCG hold events, hold a few GP's, and let their partner Twitch showcase a varied and entertaining format for the game we enjoy. Will it last forever? Maybe not, few things do. Quake 3 was the greatest competitive FPS that existed (true facts), but players move on and with them, sponsors.
E-Sports require adoption by the public, to succeed. Magic is going to struggle because its trying to push a paper based product into the digital space that E-Sports commands, but if Wizards looks at the numbers, and does some critical thinking, well I dont worry about Modern.
Um, IdSurge? What has gotten under your skin so much here to go into rant mode? You just finger waggled me on not knowing anything about e-sports game design and then showed that you understand basically nothing about it (if you want to learn about it I can try to get you pointed in the right direction, but there are some "challenges" with that one), then went on to talk about standard being down which we all know, and then went on to talk about modern, which I stated isn't down and is doing fine, then agreed with me that they aren't pushing modern because they need to help standard...
I'm a software engineer who delved into game design as well as graphic design and advertising, so yes I do know about game development and the trials of creating a game suitable to being an e-sport. Why do I not work in the game industry? Because for one that industry has bad job security, a not so insignificant number of the jobs are located on the west coast of the US with high living costs, and it's nowhere near as glamorous as some people like to envision. (I also made a game as well, but let's just say much like most who make their first game, it's not exactly something you proudly put out there on steam greenlight).
As for concepts like "gamification", asymmetric balancing, etc, check out the Extra Credits crew on YouTube. They do a great job of breaking things down for the average guy on the net and can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg
Actually, if you want to see some good videos that go over problems that modern has in specific, these two videos are a good place to start. Not exactly related to what we were talking about with e-sports, but its a good watch for those who play tcgs in general:
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Now you are an expert on E-Sport development and game design to the point of telling us what Wizard intends Colt?
I remain, unconvinced.
I've been gaming for decades, and I played with and against the founding members of many of the E-Sports teams people may recognize if they play FPS games. Your analysis or thoughts on what Wizards wants to do, or is doing, to push E-Sports, is...questionable. I've also competed at a high level and found success in Sports, Table Top games, Magic, MMO's (server first raid guilds and so on) and FPS games.
The common thread between all of that and E-Sports?
E-Sports are successful, when players feel they could do it too, when they feel they could be part of it, OR when they have something to cheer for.
Nobody is going to get attached to Copy-Cat, to cheer for it to win, and tune in when its doing well, because it ROTATES.
On the flip side, people do get attached to Jund, or Storm, or Affinity, or Burn, and cheer for it (or if we are honest worry about it winning!) and tune in when its doing well BECAUSE ITS THEIR DECK TOO.
I dont cheer for Sam Black, but if Sam Black was on Twin, I would hope for him to win. Am I alone in that?
On the other hand Colt, you continue to parrot sound bites from pro's 'Oh its the variance of hoser cards' as if those statements hold validity in and of themselves. They do not.
Here are some true facts.
Standard is down. This is known. This is admitted to by Wizards staff on Twitter and in their articles, and they have a pretty good idea of why at this point.
Modern is not down. This is known. This is admitted to by Wizards staff on Twitter, Tumblr (Blogatog) and in their articles, as well as several articles from Pro's THIS WEEK ALONE. And you know what? All parties have a pretty good idea why.
Maro even posted why they are not 'pushing' Modern, because it doesnt need the help! Know what does? STANDARD.
So yeah they are going to cut back on Modern. Let SCG hold events, hold a few GP's, and let their partner Twitch showcase a varied and entertaining format for the game we enjoy. Will it last forever? Maybe not, few things do. Quake 3 was the greatest competitive FPS that existed (true facts), but players move on and with them, sponsors.
E-Sports require adoption by the public, to succeed. Magic is going to struggle because its trying to push a paper based product into the digital space that E-Sports commands, but if Wizards looks at the numbers, and does some critical thinking, well I dont worry about Modern.
Great post! The only thing I dont agree with and it may be a generational thing, I root for players not decks. I could care less what decks actually win events. I do care about what players do and dont make it to top tables.
Other then that, I agree with the rest. Strange days .. lol
Thanks for the links Colt. Some interesting thoughts, but it's not like there is one school of thought for game design, and in fact Modern probably craps all over several rules or theories, same as Legacy, same as Overwatch, same as Quake 3.
Let's not forget that Standard is the result of probably hundreds of surveys, dozens of focus groups, and collectively decades of MTG experience, and it's falling on its face.
Go to ANY popular game forum and do some market research, the signal to noise ratio is hilarious.
There comes a point where designing for the masses fails, and forgetting the spikes is often high on the list of first mistakes.
Not disagreeing on all the doomsaying. I may talk of moderns downsides a lot and the potential upsets a new non-rotating format will bring, but modern itself isn't going to go anywhere. If we really are heading into the age of mega reprints we may not even need something like frontier, as that format was a reaction to the lack of card supply in Japan and Asia. What will help the format a lot is if they can get the most played cards low enough to reprint in commander. If that happens they have more than one way to get older cards into regions outside of the US.
I feel like the bolded is not true. Frontier was proposed and implemented by larger Asian shops to help unload rotated cards from recent standard sets. Some people have bought in due to lower cost/just having the cards around, but that doesn't change that it really was a marketing gimmick.
I believe it. I have a couple friends from Japan who have said that getting into Modern over there can be pretty difficult. Availability is low and prices can be bad. Apparently the Japanese shops created Frontier to be a non-rotating format that the players there can get into, since MTG has gotten much more popular there with Khans.
Any thoughts on the announcement today that CFB will be the only TO for GPs starting in 2018? Considering CFB and SCG have an affinity for Modern, is it possible CFB may have an influence on WOTC to make sure the amount of Modern GPs remain at a certain minimum (usually 4 a year).
I started some of the doomsaying, but it wasn't baseless. I also didn't directly say Modern was dying, I said Magic was dying. I can at least speak for Canada, I know lots of the major stores I've traded with across the country, I can't attest to the secondary Market in Canada, but the primary is suffering severely. Distributors and Stores have been ordering less, and reporting half the attendance of FNM compared to 2014-2015. This is actually exemplified with Modern Masters 2017. Stores cannot order what they want to based on numbers and the systems Wizards and their distributors have.
No statement from Hasbro is going to tell their shareholders that Magic has less people showing up to local geekshops every Friday night. From what I've been told, Modern is the only format that hasn't had large drops in attendance.
You can easily tell Magic fell off a cliff if you were around in the Darksteel days. People stopped showing up, then Wizards prompted so much on extra events, product changes, etc. You need to understand that Wizards is on a 2 year lag. In one single double set block, they now dedicated to having Masterpiece/Expeditions in each block. That alone tells you they are in dire need of selling their product. They didn't do it because they want to make us smile.
Either way, when a store can order a booster box from a distributor for 65 USD from a Standard set, that should send a red flag that no one is buying the product.
Any thoughts on the announcement today that CFB will be the only TO for GPs starting in 2018? Considering CFB and SCG have an affinity for Modern, is it possible CFB may have an influence on WOTC to make sure the amount of Modern GPs remain at a certain minimum (usually 4 a year).
I'm hoping we get more modern GPs. I was talking to my buddy a few weeks ago, we both agreed it would be nice to get a modern GP in Eastern Canada
I started some of the doomsaying, but it wasn't baseless. I also didn't directly say Modern was dying, I said Magic was dying. I can at least speak for Canada, I know lots of the major stores I've traded with across the country, I can't attest to the secondary Market in Canada, but the primary is suffering severely. Distributors and Stores have been ordering less, and reporting half the attendance of FNM compared to 2014-2015. This is actually exemplified with Modern Masters 2017. Stores cannot order what they want to based on numbers and the systems Wizards and their distributors have.
No statement from Hasbro is going to tell their shareholders that Magic has less people showing up to local geekshops every Friday night. From what I've been told, Modern is the only format that hasn't had large drops in attendance.
You can easily tell Magic fell off a cliff if you were around in the Darksteel days. People stopped showing up, then Wizards prompted so much on extra events, product changes, etc. You need to understand that Wizards is on a 2 year lag. In one single double set block, they now dedicated to having Masterpiece/Expeditions in each block. That alone tells you they are in dire need of selling their product. They didn't do it because they want to make us smile.
Either way, when a store can order a booster box from a distributor for 65 USD from a Standard set, that should send a red flag that no one is buying the product.
what part of Canada do you live in?
I live in Southern Ontario, a few hours east of Toronto. Magic is really strong here, and ever growing for the most part (except for limited). My area has less than 100 000 people in between 2 cities, but there is enough of a player base to support 3 stores, each with their own, somewhat "unique" crowd. We fire Thursday Night Magic, usually standard at my main store. With FNMs being standard, competitive modern and more casual modern. I feel the selection at stores could be a bit better, but one of the stores just started doing singles, one of the stores not really putting the effort into singles they could and the third having a fantastic selection. We regularly have 3+ vehicles going to Face to Face Opens in Toronto.
Hopefully I didn't come across too negative, I just feel Magic is really strong in my part of Canadac
Any thoughts on the announcement today that CFB will be the only TO for GPs starting in 2018? Considering CFB and SCG have an affinity for Modern, is it possible CFB may have an influence on WOTC to make sure the amount of Modern GPs remain at a certain minimum (usually 4 a year).
I'm hoping we get more modern GPs. I was talking to my buddy a few weeks ago, we both agreed it would be nice to get a modern GP in Eastern Canada
I started some of the doomsaying, but it wasn't baseless. I also didn't directly say Modern was dying, I said Magic was dying. I can at least speak for Canada, I know lots of the major stores I've traded with across the country, I can't attest to the secondary Market in Canada, but the primary is suffering severely. Distributors and Stores have been ordering less, and reporting half the attendance of FNM compared to 2014-2015. This is actually exemplified with Modern Masters 2017. Stores cannot order what they want to based on numbers and the systems Wizards and their distributors have.
No statement from Hasbro is going to tell their shareholders that Magic has less people showing up to local geekshops every Friday night. From what I've been told, Modern is the only format that hasn't had large drops in attendance.
You can easily tell Magic fell off a cliff if you were around in the Darksteel days. People stopped showing up, then Wizards prompted so much on extra events, product changes, etc. You need to understand that Wizards is on a 2 year lag. In one single double set block, they now dedicated to having Masterpiece/Expeditions in each block. That alone tells you they are in dire need of selling their product. They didn't do it because they want to make us smile.
Either way, when a store can order a booster box from a distributor for 65 USD from a Standard set, that should send a red flag that no one is buying the product.
what part of Canada do you live in?
I live in Southern Ontario, a few hours east of Toronto. Magic is really strong here, and ever growing for the most part (except for limited). My area has less than 100 000 people in between 2 cities, but there is enough of a player base to support 3 stores, each with their own, somewhat "unique" crowd. We fire Thursday Night Magic, usually standard at my main store. With FNMs being standard, competitive modern and more casual modern. I feel the selection at stores could be a bit better, but one of the stores just started doing singles, one of the stores not really putting the effort into singles they could and the third having a fantastic selection. We regularly have 3+ vehicles going to Face to Face Opens in Toronto.
Hopefully I didn't come across too negative, I just feel Magic is really strong in my part of Canadac
I live in Montreal. You must have heard Face to Face, right?
Three weeks ago, one of my friend who is working there told me that the recent Standard events can only get 8~16 players to join, and Modern can only attract 16~24 players.
Any thoughts on the announcement today that CFB will be the only TO for GPs starting in 2018? Considering CFB and SCG have an affinity for Modern, is it possible CFB may have an influence on WOTC to make sure the amount of Modern GPs remain at a certain minimum (usually 4 a year).
I'm hoping we get more modern GPs. I was talking to my buddy a few weeks ago, we both agreed it would be nice to get a modern GP in Eastern Canada
I started some of the doomsaying, but it wasn't baseless. I also didn't directly say Modern was dying, I said Magic was dying. I can at least speak for Canada, I know lots of the major stores I've traded with across the country, I can't attest to the secondary Market in Canada, but the primary is suffering severely. Distributors and Stores have been ordering less, and reporting half the attendance of FNM compared to 2014-2015. This is actually exemplified with Modern Masters 2017. Stores cannot order what they want to based on numbers and the systems Wizards and their distributors have.
No statement from Hasbro is going to tell their shareholders that Magic has less people showing up to local geekshops every Friday night. From what I've been told, Modern is the only format that hasn't had large drops in attendance.
You can easily tell Magic fell off a cliff if you were around in the Darksteel days. People stopped showing up, then Wizards prompted so much on extra events, product changes, etc. You need to understand that Wizards is on a 2 year lag. In one single double set block, they now dedicated to having Masterpiece/Expeditions in each block. That alone tells you they are in dire need of selling their product. They didn't do it because they want to make us smile.
Either way, when a store can order a booster box from a distributor for 65 USD from a Standard set, that should send a red flag that no one is buying the product.
what part of Canada do you live in?
I live in Southern Ontario, a few hours east of Toronto. Magic is really strong here, and ever growing for the most part (except for limited). My area has less than 100 000 people in between 2 cities, but there is enough of a player base to support 3 stores, each with their own, somewhat "unique" crowd. We fire Thursday Night Magic, usually standard at my main store. With FNMs being standard, competitive modern and more casual modern. I feel the selection at stores could be a bit better, but one of the stores just started doing singles, one of the stores not really putting the effort into singles they could and the third having a fantastic selection. We regularly have 3+ vehicles going to Face to Face Opens in Toronto.
Hopefully I didn't come across too negative, I just feel Magic is really strong in my part of Canadac
I live in Montreal. You must have heard Face to Face, right?
Three weeks ago, one of my friend who is working there told me that the recent Standard events can only get 8~16 players to join, and Modern can only attract 16~24 players.
I would say this is not a good sign at all.
yeah that doesn't seem good for a city the size of Montreal. I heard that even in Toronto, standard was having a hard time firing, but everything else seems fine.
Either way, if MM2017 is an indicator that they know how badly they have been screwing up. I think the game could be revitalized. They just need to understand that most problems they have occurred were self inflicted.
Either way, if MM2017 is an indicator that they know how badly they have been screwing up. I think the game could be revitalized. They just need to understand that most problems they have occurred were self inflicted.
Agreed, although I'd say the change of direction Stoddard outlined is a better indicator than MM17. It looks like they're on the right path, at any rate. The next couple of sets will probably do a lot to cement or unwind the baggage that's been holding the game back.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Either way, if MM2017 is an indicator that they know how badly they have been screwing up. I think the game could be revitalized. They just need to understand that most problems they have occurred were self inflicted.
From a Modern metagame perspective, the most important development was the realization that threats > answers is really problematic for Standard and Magic as a whole. This has been one of the biggest problems with Standard recently, and it has trickled down into Modern. Once we start seeing more answers and better solutions, Modern will have a better chance of getting more interactive and gaining access to some of the better answer cards.
Hopefully, this points Wizards towards more ways to fix Standard by fixing Standard, not fixing Standard by breaking other things to make Standard look better. If D&D and R&D can figure that out, it solidifies Modern's standing as the premier non-rotating format and improves the cards that get into Modern. That said, if Wizard decides the way to fix Standard is to torpedo other formats so Standard just appears less awful, that would obviously be really bad for Modern. Force-feeding a bad Standard format doesn't solve Standard's problems, and I'm hoping that recent player outcry and recent Modern popularity underscores that.
If Wizards wants Modern to be more profitable, they should be looking at ways of monetizing the format, not ways to sink Modern so Standard is more profitable by comparison. It's not a zero sum game and there are plenty of creative solutions that benefit players and Wizards alike.
You can easily tell Magic fell off a cliff if you were around in the Darksteel days. People stopped showing up, then Wizards prompted so much on extra events, product changes, etc. You need to understand that Wizards is on a 2 year lag. In one single double set block, they now dedicated to having Masterpiece/Expeditions in each block. That alone tells you they are in dire need of selling their product. They didn't do it because they want to make us smile.
While I do think the game is having problems currently, I do not understand the frequent assertion that putting Masterpiece/Expeditions in each block is a sign they are in "dire need" of selling their product. They had the Expeditions, people liked them, so they figured "hey, why not keep them around if people like them? We don't even have to spend time on playtesting them!" If consumers like X and you decide to make more of X as a result, that's not a sign of desperation or anything because that's something you would logically do whether you were doing spectacularly or if you were doing really poorly.
I just really don't get why people think the Masterpieces becoming commonplace is anything more than a sign of players liking them and Wizards of the Coast logically deciding that if players like something and it's not really an increased cost, that continuing to give them it would be a good idea.
Thanks for the links Colt. Some interesting thoughts, but it's not like there is one school of thought for game design, and in fact Modern probably craps all over several rules or theories, same as Legacy, same as Overwatch, same as Quake 3.
Let's not forget that Standard is the result of probably hundreds of surveys, dozens of focus groups, and collectively decades of MTG experience, and it's falling on its face.
Go to ANY popular game forum and do some market research, the signal to noise ratio is hilarious.
There comes a point where designing for the masses fails, and forgetting the spikes is often high on the list of first mistakes.
For the most part you aren't wrong on different thoughts on game design. In general, this is referring to things involving the building of the games themselves such as wedge design vs layer design (The japanese did layer early on while most western developers did wedge), Story driven development vs Mechanic driven development, etc. The original MtG game was mechanics driven and developed as a way for D&D players to get a quick fix, but as time went along the game expanded into it's own entity that overtook D&D in popularity. Without looking too deeply and just going by the set designs I'd say the philosophy started changing around Urza's Saga to more story driven design. Maro would probably know more about the goings ons and I'm sure that guy would have tons of input on that subject.
The thing is I can't really say one way or another modern is a designed format. Developers can design individual cards to fit moderns power curve, but that isn't the same as saying "we want specific lines of play to work along the following turn sequence" and then put together the plays that you'd expect to have on that sequence line. If you looked at the most recent video from Extra Credits they talk about "de-gamification". Modern is exactly what they describe in that video. It's like Skyrim with mod support, where players can completely ignore the leveling curve or bypass limits placed by the original game designers. People can go stuff a burn deck with basically 12 copies of Lightning bolt, and in legacy people actually stuff burn with 16 copies of lightning bolt, or someone can go run a merfolk deck with so many fish lords you'd be wondering if they have a legislature in the Marianas Trench.
As far as modern crapping over several design theories or what not, that entirely depends on what wizards has in their design docs as "rules and theories" . It definitely craps over their stuff for standard given what we've been seeing lately.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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Moderns success as a format hinging on it being viable from an eSports aspect is a joke. Other people already pointed out how poker thrives yet it plays off the same old game every time. It's a bad example because MTG is a niche where poker is more widely understood, but the idea of support around the game vs the game itself still holds.
Colt, if I may:
I raise this in a non-judgmental way, truly, but I believe our mutual friend here has become frustrated with way you are delivering your comments, as highlighted above. The reason is easy to miss, as most people don't self-edit themselves in an analytical way.
Basically; what you may see as common sense or intuitive is not necessarily evident to others, nor is it necessarily correct. Every time you make an assertion using this sort of tone, you are making a series of unseen logical leaps to reach your "common sense" standpoint. Those leaps may not ever be individually processed by you, it may occur to you spontaneously and therefore *seem* common sense, but they aren't. You have your own world view, influenced by your limited window of experience into your environment. Neither you, nor anyone else has complete or perfect information. What may seem perfectly obvious to you might completely disagree with the facts at someone else's disposal.
As was ever thus. It's something you'll have to consider when pushing your statements on this forum in the kind of tone that strongly suggests you are reciting some kind of immutable fact.
Like I said, no judgement. I don't really care what you wrote. Just offering some constructive insight as to why others may have taken issue with the *way* you said it.
Hope I've been helpful. I do realise that there's a risk that comments like these can come across as arrogant, and I truly don't mean it as such.
Peace out guys.
I never said the format sucks. I love it right now. I was just stating there is a group of players unhappy at the direction of the format. Most have been since its inception.
Which is bad for the game over all. I am not just talking about Modern, but all formats and the game in general.
All formats other then Standard will take this route. Even if Frontier becomes a sanctioned format. Wotc has to have Standard the #1 format in the brand. It sells the most product and is the reasoning for new sets. Without Standard, we dont get new toys to play with. Without those new toys to sell, LGS start closing across the country. It becomes harder to find some place to play for any format.
Magic is the #1 seller for almost every LGS. Some may supplement their sales with other things such as used video games, board games, or puzzles, but without Magic, those LGS die a miserable death.
On the Esport issue. Almost every game made into a television friendly version has made the game simpler or in other words, its dumbed down the game. I am not sure Magic can survive that kind of change just to draw in a few more viewers/players. Leave the esports for games that are meant for the televison, video games.
Why would Wizards make a new non-rotating format to boost a multi-format team sport when Modern is already well-known and extremely popular? That doesn't make any sense. I'm sure one day we'll get an intermediate format between Standard and Modern, but that's far in the distance. Right now, if you're Wizards and you're trying to build a team experience, you're going to turn to your hallmark nonrotating format, not make a new one and hope people buy into it.
This is borderline format bashing. Please keep it constructive.
More specifically, this post is pessimistic, alarmist, and wholly negative, all without any evidence or grounding to support your claims. If you're going to post about Modern longevity issues, you need to support your arguments with some actual sources or evidence. You also need to be in dialogue with the counter-arguments. Just claiming it will be "Abandoned" and become "elitist/expensive" doesn't cut it and doesn't really meet the bar for constructive discussion.
From the look of things WoTC is looking to improve the game design and make a better non-paper format for the e-sports version. At least that is what I was taking away from the press conference leaks and what information we got on MTG Digital Next, the later being more of a studio. Paper magic is going to keep existing as it is with larger print runs and most likely more reprints, as they've probably learned from Aether Revolt that they need at least some kind of modern reprint in the standard set to help improve the EV. However, all of this is anecdotal at best since we can only go off of what information they have posted and what we've been seeing in print runs over the last year.
As for a new non-rotating format: They definitely have one in the works. Modern is hard for them to really support and bring new players into due to many factors, some of which were out of their own control such as the recession. If they make a new format it's going to be about making a baseline experience people can readily return to from standard, more than the current non-rotating format of modern where it acts more as a pure repository of old cards with little care towards catering towards a specific kind of experience.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Isn't that actually called 'my opinion'?
I mean, we are on a thread where people grab half-a-dozen published results and extrapolate that information for the worldwide modern meta-game. Is that any more substantiated? Yeah, like a 10 people survey in an universe of 10 million. looks good on paper, in the small print under a tv commercial.
In most cases, players just project their own fears and/or hopes onto Digital Next. It's everything we want it to be or everything we fear it will be. We just don't have enough information about it so it can be whatever we want it to be to advance our own argument. Unless you or others have better sources about Digital Next, it shouldn't factor into our Modern conversation at all. It's just too speculative.
Again, it doesn't make sense for them to make a new non-rotating format when they already have one that is successful. It wouldn't solve any of their problems. If the issue is that Standard players aren't bringing their decks/cards over from Standard to Modern, the new format only solves that in the short term. 1-2 years out, it would be just as settled as Modern; that's what happens with non-rotating formats. If the issue is that Modern doesn't drive sales, a new non-rotating format wouldn't address that either. Once the format settles, new products wouldn't be absorbed as easily.
If Wizards wants to solve Standard's problems, it needs to fix the broken Standard. It does not need to break everything around Standard so Standard appears fixed by comparison. Modern has longevity because there will always be a desire for a non-rotating format, and Wizards can support Modern in the long-term to an extent it can't support Legacy or Vintage.
I know it's only a vocal minority in this thread, but I'm really disheartened to see that same small vocal contingent continually suggest Modern is in trouble. Especially when they rarely have any evidence, let alone compelling evidence.
There are very few forums where you can just write out your opinion. Ours is no exception. Forums are places for constructive discussion, which means you can only share opinions that are framed in a constructive manner, and are offered in such a way as to advance the discussion.
If one were to post a single line post of "Modern is dying," that would be spamming because it doesn't constructively advance the conversation. If one were to instead post "Modern is dying. Here's why:..." and then explain why they feel that's the case, it would more likely be within the thread's parameters.
The bar is not "does your post have statistically significant evidence or irrefutable support?" It's "does your post contribute to a constructive conversation?"
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I remain, unconvinced.
I've been gaming for decades, and I played with and against the founding members of many of the E-Sports teams people may recognize if they play FPS games. Your analysis or thoughts on what Wizards wants to do, or is doing, to push E-Sports, is...questionable. I've also competed at a high level and found success in Sports, Table Top games, Magic, MMO's (server first raid guilds and so on) and FPS games.
The common thread between all of that and E-Sports?
E-Sports are successful, when players feel they could do it too, when they feel they could be part of it, OR when they have something to cheer for.
Nobody is going to get attached to Copy-Cat, to cheer for it to win, and tune in when its doing well, because it ROTATES.
On the flip side, people do get attached to Jund, or Storm, or Affinity, or Burn, and cheer for it (or if we are honest worry about it winning!) and tune in when its doing well BECAUSE ITS THEIR DECK TOO.
I dont cheer for Sam Black, but if Sam Black was on Twin, I would hope for him to win. Am I alone in that?
On the other hand Colt, you continue to parrot sound bites from pro's 'Oh its the variance of hoser cards' as if those statements hold validity in and of themselves. They do not.
Here are some true facts.
Standard is down. This is known. This is admitted to by Wizards staff on Twitter and in their articles, and they have a pretty good idea of why at this point.
Modern is not down. This is known. This is admitted to by Wizards staff on Twitter, Tumblr (Blogatog) and in their articles, as well as several articles from Pro's THIS WEEK ALONE. And you know what? All parties have a pretty good idea why.
Maro even posted why they are not 'pushing' Modern, because it doesnt need the help! Know what does? STANDARD.
So yeah they are going to cut back on Modern. Let SCG hold events, hold a few GP's, and let their partner Twitch showcase a varied and entertaining format for the game we enjoy. Will it last forever? Maybe not, few things do. Quake 3 was the greatest competitive FPS that existed (true facts), but players move on and with them, sponsors.
E-Sports require adoption by the public, to succeed. Magic is going to struggle because its trying to push a paper based product into the digital space that E-Sports commands, but if Wizards looks at the numbers, and does some critical thinking, well I dont worry about Modern.
Spirits
I feel like the bolded is not true. Frontier was proposed and implemented by larger Asian shops to help unload rotated cards from recent standard sets. Some people have bought in due to lower cost/just having the cards around, but that doesn't change that it really was a marketing gimmick.
I am also unsure that MM17 is heralding an era of "mega reprints." Honestly, it is probably desirable for WotC that Modern has a more expensive buy-in; means it will cannibalize Standard sales less frequently. I agree with idSurge that modern's reduced support is more likely a sign of failed standard environments rather than any real concern about modern.
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StaffI don't think they'll ban/unban anything for at least a few more months. They changed the format up for PT Oath of the Gatewatch, which warped the format so much they had to do it again after Shadows. Then they made more bans for Aether Revolt. so they've made 3 updates over the course of a year. I think they should just let the format settle for a year or two before making drastic changes again. I can see JTMS being fine in modern, power level wise. But I can see his price jumping. I don't know where I stand on SFM. With the power level of creatures ever growing, I think pod will stay on the banned list. That's all I really have to say in regards to the banned list.
as for the "Magic as an e-sport" discussion that was before, I think the one thing that restricts its ability to grow as an esport is the fact that you pretty much need to play in order to understand what's going on. There are so many decks that it would probably confuse outsiders almost. Plus formats like standard are always changing, so someone who played standard, say 5-7 years ago wouldn't know what decks are currently around. as much as I'd like to see it grow as an e-sport, I think its growth could be limited
Um, IdSurge? What has gotten under your skin so much here to go into rant mode? You just finger waggled me on not knowing anything about e-sports game design and then showed that you understand basically nothing about it (if you want to learn about it I can try to get you pointed in the right direction, but there are some "challenges" with that one), then went on to talk about standard being down which we all know, and then went on to talk about modern, which I stated isn't down and is doing fine, then agreed with me that they aren't pushing modern because they need to help standard...
I'm a software engineer who delved into game design as well as graphic design and advertising, so yes I do know about game development and the trials of creating a game suitable to being an e-sport. Why do I not work in the game industry? Because for one that industry has bad job security, a not so insignificant number of the jobs are located on the west coast of the US with high living costs, and it's nowhere near as glamorous as some people like to envision. (I also made a game as well, but let's just say much like most who make their first game, it's not exactly something you proudly put out there on steam greenlight).
As for concepts like "gamification", asymmetric balancing, etc, check out the Extra Credits crew on YouTube. They do a great job of breaking things down for the average guy on the net and can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg
Actually, if you want to see some good videos that go over problems that modern has in specific, these two videos are a good place to start. Not exactly related to what we were talking about with e-sports, but its a good watch for those who play tcgs in general:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZnjwdStzUc&list=PLhyKYa0YJ_5BkTruCmaBBZ8z6cP9KzPiX&index=52
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3b3hDvRjJA
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Great post! The only thing I dont agree with and it may be a generational thing, I root for players not decks. I could care less what decks actually win events. I do care about what players do and dont make it to top tables.
Other then that, I agree with the rest. Strange days .. lol
Let's not forget that Standard is the result of probably hundreds of surveys, dozens of focus groups, and collectively decades of MTG experience, and it's falling on its face.
Go to ANY popular game forum and do some market research, the signal to noise ratio is hilarious.
There comes a point where designing for the masses fails, and forgetting the spikes is often high on the list of first mistakes.
Spirits
I believe it. I have a couple friends from Japan who have said that getting into Modern over there can be pretty difficult. Availability is low and prices can be bad. Apparently the Japanese shops created Frontier to be a non-rotating format that the players there can get into, since MTG has gotten much more popular there with Khans.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
No statement from Hasbro is going to tell their shareholders that Magic has less people showing up to local geekshops every Friday night. From what I've been told, Modern is the only format that hasn't had large drops in attendance.
You can easily tell Magic fell off a cliff if you were around in the Darksteel days. People stopped showing up, then Wizards prompted so much on extra events, product changes, etc. You need to understand that Wizards is on a 2 year lag. In one single double set block, they now dedicated to having Masterpiece/Expeditions in each block. That alone tells you they are in dire need of selling their product. They didn't do it because they want to make us smile.
Either way, when a store can order a booster box from a distributor for 65 USD from a Standard set, that should send a red flag that no one is buying the product.
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StaffI'm hoping we get more modern GPs. I was talking to my buddy a few weeks ago, we both agreed it would be nice to get a modern GP in Eastern Canada
what part of Canada do you live in?
I live in Southern Ontario, a few hours east of Toronto. Magic is really strong here, and ever growing for the most part (except for limited). My area has less than 100 000 people in between 2 cities, but there is enough of a player base to support 3 stores, each with their own, somewhat "unique" crowd. We fire Thursday Night Magic, usually standard at my main store. With FNMs being standard, competitive modern and more casual modern. I feel the selection at stores could be a bit better, but one of the stores just started doing singles, one of the stores not really putting the effort into singles they could and the third having a fantastic selection. We regularly have 3+ vehicles going to Face to Face Opens in Toronto.
Hopefully I didn't come across too negative, I just feel Magic is really strong in my part of Canadac
I live in Montreal. You must have heard Face to Face, right?
Three weeks ago, one of my friend who is working there told me that the recent Standard events can only get 8~16 players to join, and Modern can only attract 16~24 players.
I would say this is not a good sign at all.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
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Staffyeah that doesn't seem good for a city the size of Montreal. I heard that even in Toronto, standard was having a hard time firing, but everything else seems fine.
Agreed, although I'd say the change of direction Stoddard outlined is a better indicator than MM17. It looks like they're on the right path, at any rate. The next couple of sets will probably do a lot to cement or unwind the baggage that's been holding the game back.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
From a Modern metagame perspective, the most important development was the realization that threats > answers is really problematic for Standard and Magic as a whole. This has been one of the biggest problems with Standard recently, and it has trickled down into Modern. Once we start seeing more answers and better solutions, Modern will have a better chance of getting more interactive and gaining access to some of the better answer cards.
Hopefully, this points Wizards towards more ways to fix Standard by fixing Standard, not fixing Standard by breaking other things to make Standard look better. If D&D and R&D can figure that out, it solidifies Modern's standing as the premier non-rotating format and improves the cards that get into Modern. That said, if Wizard decides the way to fix Standard is to torpedo other formats so Standard just appears less awful, that would obviously be really bad for Modern. Force-feeding a bad Standard format doesn't solve Standard's problems, and I'm hoping that recent player outcry and recent Modern popularity underscores that.
If Wizards wants Modern to be more profitable, they should be looking at ways of monetizing the format, not ways to sink Modern so Standard is more profitable by comparison. It's not a zero sum game and there are plenty of creative solutions that benefit players and Wizards alike.
While I do think the game is having problems currently, I do not understand the frequent assertion that putting Masterpiece/Expeditions in each block is a sign they are in "dire need" of selling their product. They had the Expeditions, people liked them, so they figured "hey, why not keep them around if people like them? We don't even have to spend time on playtesting them!" If consumers like X and you decide to make more of X as a result, that's not a sign of desperation or anything because that's something you would logically do whether you were doing spectacularly or if you were doing really poorly.
I just really don't get why people think the Masterpieces becoming commonplace is anything more than a sign of players liking them and Wizards of the Coast logically deciding that if players like something and it's not really an increased cost, that continuing to give them it would be a good idea.
For the most part you aren't wrong on different thoughts on game design. In general, this is referring to things involving the building of the games themselves such as wedge design vs layer design (The japanese did layer early on while most western developers did wedge), Story driven development vs Mechanic driven development, etc. The original MtG game was mechanics driven and developed as a way for D&D players to get a quick fix, but as time went along the game expanded into it's own entity that overtook D&D in popularity. Without looking too deeply and just going by the set designs I'd say the philosophy started changing around Urza's Saga to more story driven design. Maro would probably know more about the goings ons and I'm sure that guy would have tons of input on that subject.
The thing is I can't really say one way or another modern is a designed format. Developers can design individual cards to fit moderns power curve, but that isn't the same as saying "we want specific lines of play to work along the following turn sequence" and then put together the plays that you'd expect to have on that sequence line. If you looked at the most recent video from Extra Credits they talk about "de-gamification". Modern is exactly what they describe in that video. It's like Skyrim with mod support, where players can completely ignore the leveling curve or bypass limits placed by the original game designers. People can go stuff a burn deck with basically 12 copies of Lightning bolt, and in legacy people actually stuff burn with 16 copies of lightning bolt, or someone can go run a merfolk deck with so many fish lords you'd be wondering if they have a legislature in the Marianas Trench.
As far as modern crapping over several design theories or what not, that entirely depends on what wizards has in their design docs as "rules and theories"
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!