Reactive blue players: in your opinion, what is the problem with your decks? And don't just say "we don't have Twin." Let's see if we can dig a little deeper. Is it an inability to close out games quickly? An inability to find answers? Weak answers? All of the above and, if so, what extent for each explanation?
I personally love a Preordain unban, but it means Twin is even less likely to come off the list and Preordain will definitely help Cheeri0s and Storm (less worryingly, Ad Nauseam too). I also like a JTMS unban, but if the problem is a lack of answers or a lack of early game consistency, JTMS doesn't solve that. I see arguments for and against both of these unbans, as well as SFM and Twin, but am not sure what the best option is.
The problem that draw-go counterspell decks have in modern is that the field is to wide open for control decks to be able to flourish. Control decks need a settled meta-game in order to construct a 75 card shell that can deal with the anticipated problems to be presented. I don't think any single thing could really help with this issue because it is more a issue with the fundamental nature of the format. Perhaps if Blue could get better mid-range value creatures it would help elevate blue decks, I doubt that will happen because of WotC being terrified about making Blue even better in legacy. I actually think blue and red have suffered more from the focus on value creatures in the game as a whole because while Black, White, and Green have been given major increases into that area of design red and blue seem to have kept their "our creatures suck" quality while at the same time non-creature spells in those colors have been scaled back into the "now our non-creature spells kinda suck" realm also.
Reactive blue players: in your opinion, what is the problem with your decks? And don't just say "we don't have Twin." Let's see if we can dig a little deeper. Is it an inability to close out games quickly? An inability to find answers? Weak answers? All of the above and, if so, what extent for each explanation?
I personally love a Preordain unban, but it means Twin is even less likely to come off the list and Preordain will definitely help Cheeri0s and Storm (less worryingly, Ad Nauseam too). I also like a JTMS unban, but if the problem is a lack of answers or a lack of early game consistency, JTMS doesn't solve that. I see arguments for and against both of these unbans, as well as SFM and Twin, but am not sure what the best option is.
The problem that draw-go counterspell decks have in modern is that the field is to wide open for control decks to be able to flourish. Control decks need a settled meta-game in order to construct a 75 card shell that can deal with the anticipated problems to be presented. I don't think any single thing could really help with this issue because it is more a issue with the fundamental nature of the format. Perhaps if Blue could get better mid-range value creatures it would help elevate blue decks, I doubt that will happen because of WotC being terrified about making Blue even better in legacy. I actually think blue and red have suffered more from the focus on value creatures in the game as a whole because while Black, White, and Green have been given major increases into that area of design red and blue seem to have kept their "our creatures suck" quality while at the same time non-creature spells in those colors have been scaled back into the "now our non-creature spells kinda suck" realm also.
Wizards doesn't care about whether stuff is too powerful in Legacy. They don't test for the format, they organize few tournaments for it, they rarely ban or unban cards in it, they allow unhealthy metagames where there is a single best deck to persist, they don't make new cards for it, and with the exception of Eternal Masters, they don't profit off of it.
I would say they dont work for some. It all depends on what you want out of the format. The meta has changed every time they have banned a card in the format.
While this is technically true, bans definitely haven't done a great job at improving competing decks. Non-Twin blue decks don't have a signficiantly higher meta share than they did when Twin was in the format and Wild Nacatl's banning didn't cause Doran and Student of Warfare to see any play.
Wizards banned Twin and said new reactive blue decks would emerge and then they didn't.
Yes it did. Gave birth to a couple Ux reactive decks. They may not be T1 but they are playable and in some cases a solid meta call.
Those blue reactive decks existed back when Twin was around too and haven't gotten much better since then. Grixis Control is a tier 2 deck, just like it was back then, while Jeskai, Esper, Faeries, and other decks are still tier 3 despite Twin being banned and despite getting Ancestral Vision, Nahiri, Fatal Push, and other tools. Nothing has changed, and I am pretty sure that other interactive blue decks like Scapeshift have actually gotten less popular since then.
I personally would like to go a year with no changes and let the format settle a little before doing anything.
So, you personally would like to go another year without a tier 1 blue deck.
Letting the format settle will do nothing. It's also...impossible. in April, we will get the next set of pushed cards. Maybe is 1 or 2, maybe it's 5 or 6, but you can be sure something pushed is on its obvious way.
And there is the problem. The tools on the ban list and very unlikely outside a broken mechanic, to be improved. Wizards doesn't do dig and tutors for cheap anymore. (Note, delve is broken)
So what will we get? It won't be format stability. It won't likely be Blue cantrips.
Just let those cards off the list, and fuel combo control.
BTW, Storm is very stable as the gifts version. I don't know how much more stable it really would be, but it's nearly an interact or die situation already.
Reactive blue players: in your opinion, what is the problem with your decks? And don't just say "we don't have Twin." Let's see if we can dig a little deeper. Is it an inability to close out games quickly? An inability to find answers? Weak answers? All of the above and, if so, what extent for each explanation?
I personally love a Preordain unban, but it means Twin is even less likely to come off the list and Preordain will definitely help Cheeri0s and Storm (less worryingly, Ad Nauseam too). I also like a JTMS unban, but if the problem is a lack of answers or a lack of early game consistency, JTMS doesn't solve that. I see arguments for and against both of these unbans, as well as SFM and Twin, but am not sure what the best option is.
Well... you want it? Here we go...
1. We lack any sort of consistency - I know this sounds obvious, but let me put it in perspective. If I am a player who needs to draw toe-to-toe with a burn player, not only do I need to draw proactively to react properly. I need to draw specifics and my specifics are less common comparative to the opponents threats. I'm not talking about the entire "well he had two Eidolon of the Great Revel" and I had Negate. I'm talking in order to have a chance, I need Dispel, Dispel, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Serum Visions and two lands, and he can have an ordinary draw. The burn player has a more consistent deck than I do, by a dramatic amount.
If both players have 6 lands, and I cast Serum Visions - I cannot decide my fate. My opponent casts Ancient Stirrings and I get hit with a Reality Smasher. Proactive decks feel like they are three or four steps above the reactive decks. If my opponent topdecks something dead, I have a slight chance, if they topdeck lucky, I cannot possibly climb back into the game. This is where I feel Wizards first tried this method to balance blue and banned Bloodbraid Elf, look how that worked out?
2. The removal is slightly lacking - Fatal Push was great step, it will help in a lot of situations, but it forces us into a color combination that doesn't suite many situations well. If I cast Path to Exile, during any of the first four critical turns, it becomes advantageous for my opponent. I don't have the tools to supplement the advantage gained. It seems like a strict Swords to Plowshares print would benefit. It feels seriously wrong to cast Path on a Glistener Elf, but your removal suite doesn't give you options otherwise in many situations.
So why are people playing reactive blue decks at all? Well we do have some advantages in the Modern format. Look at Scapeshift, it's difficult to interact with, and is a one card combo to help end the game, whether you ramp or not doesn't generally matter as long as you can interact, and it's the only deck in the format that has a chance against stumbling opponents.
I think that last line really hits home, Blue Reactive decks only work when the opponent stumbles, and we get lucky. If we start chaining Snapcasters with Kolaghan's Command and Cryptic Command you feel quite godly when the board is empty, the problem is this format doesn't have that situation arise often enough to warrant playing a blue deck.
3. Counter Magic is versatile enough, but not powerful enough. I replied to Seth when this thread was locked after he quoted me
Hey, thanks for the reply on the post. I can't respond since the thread got locked up again, but I definitely want to clarify something.
I only mentioned efficient counter magic, because the original post I was responding to also spoke about efficiency, not versatility. In that sense, I agree with you that blue countermagic isn't versatile, but I would also argue that it should be restrictive in versatility, at the cost of efficiency.
My personal preference is to have Absorb and Undermine modern legal. I honesty feel that would help solve the control deck problems, and at the same time, not lock blue into running 4 Counterspell in every deck.
I think that summarizes my feelings about the issue, I don't want to lock every blue deck running 4 Counterspell, but I want to lock in amazing options for going Ux, Absorb and Undermine are just amazing cards for what they can do. Snapcaster, into Undermine.... Drool. A control deck could actually close out a game against a greedy manabase without needing to run cheesy cards like Blood Moon. Disallow is just a complete joke, tagging more versatile options onto a 3 mana counterspell doesn't make it good. We have had Voidslime for years, and no one plays that garbage. Look at Counterflux, it's trash in this format. Cryptic Command is flexible and powerful, but you cannot afford to play 4 copies in most lists. We need raw power at the three mana slot, our versatility can stay at the two mana slot. As an example, our current countermagic, such as Mana Leak is not a bad card per say, it's just becomes a bad card when it's stuck in your hand, and when your opponents run on a 1-4 mana Axis, it can actually become worse than a Thoughtseize Topdeck. We need a level of manipulation before we need "all powerful" Counterspell.
4. Win Conditions exist, It's that simple, if we wanna win with Colonnade, we have shown we can do it. We just lack the tools to create the scenario. You can win with Madcap Skills, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, Celestial Colonnade, Sun Titan, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Baneslayer Angel, whatever. The problem is if we can't create a flow of the game through turns 1-6 we are dead in the water, if we skip a beat on any given turn. This is possible as Jeskai Control has won a Modern Pro Tour before, but you have to admit how insanely lucky he was at ensuring tempo and removal were on his side.
Splinter Twin ban has never personally bothered me, although it hurt me playing my favorite archetype. Beforehand I could lock down my opponents mana when they got slightly unfortunate, and turn that into an instant win. I definitely felt an amount of success with this deck in a way I never did with a generally reactive blue deck. I played Upheaval/Psychatog control at a competitive level when that was Standard, and that took you till turn 9, it felt like I was doing the same thing turn 4. So I understand the banning behind it, if I never get a blue card unbanned from the current list, Splinter Twin should be released, otherwise, you could unban every single blue card (except Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time) and I feel that would compensate for the problems blue lacks.
Now let's talk about the Standard Monster called Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Back in the Standard days people claimed that my article helped feed into the banning decision when the former Editor of SCG at the time, promoted my article (it's down now, so sorry I can't link it), even posting that I had a binder with 16 copies of the menacing planeswalker to exemplify no bias in my writing. Jace is the only card in the current pool that can help reactive blue decks increase consistency without forfeiting their early game effectiveness. So let's get something out of the way, Jace isn't coming down turn 4 in this format. If he is, it's a desperation move for the control player. 4 Mana Brainstorm doesn't sound appealing. The problem with Jace, is that people don't like his Fateseal, and I can understand that, but there is a large difference of being Fatesealed out of the game turn 10, and being Twinned out on turn 4. Control Mirror Matches are another reason that people would be skeptical about unbanning this Planeswalker, Caw-Blade was notorious for going to time. My answer to this is that it won't happen anymore. The legend rule has changed. We aren't casting Beleren into a Mind Sculptor to prolong the game. One of those players will find an answer, and quickly make stew out of the opposing control player.
Times have dramatically changed, we are closer to Legacy than ever before, and bannings have occurred annually. Everytime Wizards refuses to print a new cantrip, or a decent counterspell, puts us further and further away. It doesn't matter what they do to change the banned list, they would have to ban over half the format to have any significant effect for Blue mages. If you don't believe me, look at the recent announcement! Ban Gitaxian Probe? No problem, I'll run Street Wraith and Mishra's Bauble. Ban Golgari Grave-Troll? No problem, I'll just russian roulette you out of the game anyway. It seems the only thing they did was lower the Infect meta%, which probably made things worse for a Blue Mage.
TL;DR
1. Consistency for blue is a joke compared to other decks
2. Removal doesn't encompass the amount of versatile threats in the format
3. Countermagic is sub-par, but that's not to say it's not good enough for Modern
4. Splinter Twin should probably be the weakest card on the banned list, if it stays banned.
5. We could use Jace, it's not the monster you remember.
6. Wizards needs to stop banning to make us better, it's not going to work, this weekend is solid proof.
Reactive blue players: in your opinion, what is the problem with your decks? And don't just say "we don't have Twin." Let's see if we can dig a little deeper. Is it an inability to close out games quickly? An inability to find answers? Weak answers? All of the above and, if so, what extent for each explanation?
I personally love a Preordain unban, but it means Twin is even less likely to come off the list and Preordain will definitely help Cheeri0s and Storm (less worryingly, Ad Nauseam too). I also like a JTMS unban, but if the problem is a lack of answers or a lack of early game consistency, JTMS doesn't solve that. I see arguments for and against both of these unbans, as well as SFM and Twin, but am not sure what the best option is.
As someone who has played Ux control since 2011-2012 (in modern), the two biggest weaknesses is a lack of a good 2 mana counter and inefficient CA engine(s). Even a way to filter draws would be nice, but depending on the deck Thought Scour does a good job of being an enabler and velocity, but something like Opt would be nice.
If we could get:
Counterspell
Accumulated Knowledge (or even a generic 2 mana draw 2 at instant with some easy hoop to jump through - think 80% consistency (ala Predict in Miracles)) and possibly a 4 mana option (FoF/JTMS).
Opt/Weaker Brainstorm (perhaps a draw 2 put 1 on top)
The removal answers are fine for the most part. Yes, we don't have anything like Council's Judgment (Anguished Unmaking is so close, but the 3 life is way too much in this format), but that's not too big of a deal (it's fine to have some holes in the deck, but not to the extent it is right now). Finishers are fine as well - Tasigur, Snapcaster/Bolt, manlands, Clique, etc. The eventually winning part is not really a problem and with Eye of Ugin banned there really isn't any deck outside of something like Valakut that has true inevitability over Control.
JTMS would partially address the finisher and CA issue though. I'm not sure how much he'd actually help really since he would mostly be a SB card in fair MU's especially BGx, but BGx isn't really a problem for control. I'd rather see the other stuff be printed (the most important being a good 2 mana counter). Also, Caverns sucks
Reactive blue players: in your opinion, what is the problem with your decks? And don't just say "we don't have Twin." Let's see if we can dig a little deeper. Is it an inability to close out games quickly? An inability to find answers? Weak answers? All of the above and, if so, what extent for each explanation?
I personally love a Preordain unban, but it means Twin is even less likely to come off the list and Preordain will definitely help Cheeri0s and Storm (less worryingly, Ad Nauseam too). I also like a JTMS unban, but if the problem is a lack of answers or a lack of early game consistency, JTMS doesn't solve that. I see arguments for and against both of these unbans, as well as SFM and Twin, but am not sure what the best option is.
The biggest problem is that it is difficult to find instant-win cards early enough in the game. Those cards definitely do exist. Madcap Experiment, Gifts Ungiven, and even Nahiri, the Harbinger all end the game extremely quickly when played on curve. Most decks other than BGx Midrange and Tron have few answers to a turn 4 Platinum Emperion, a turn 5 Blazing Archon, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, or Iona, Shield of Emeria, or a turn 6 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and all of them instantly stabilize or win the game. However, with Serum Visions being the only decent cantrip, it is difficult to ensure that a wincon will be found in time to play it on curve, which opens up a window that allows Control players to lose to aggro and combo decks. If Preordain is unbanned, Combo/Control decks should be able to do well in Modern. Traditional pure Control decks likely will never do well in Modern though.
100 percent agree
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Reactive blue players: in your opinion, what is the problem with your decks? And don't just say "we don't have Twin." Let's see if we can dig a little deeper. Is it an inability to close out games quickly? An inability to find answers? Weak answers? All of the above and, if so, what extent for each explanation?
I personally love a Preordain unban, but it means Twin is even less likely to come off the list and Preordain will definitely help Cheeri0s and Storm (less worryingly, Ad Nauseam too). I also like a JTMS unban, but if the problem is a lack of answers or a lack of early game consistency, JTMS doesn't solve that. I see arguments for and against both of these unbans, as well as SFM and Twin, but am not sure what the best option is.
As someone who has played Ux control since 2011-2012 (in modern), the two biggest weaknesses is a lack of a good 2 mana counter and inefficient CA engine(s). Even a way to filter draws would be nice, but depending on the deck Thought Scour does a good job of being an enabler and velocity, but something like Opt would be nice.
If we could get:
Counterspell
Accumulated Knowledge (or even a generic 2 mana draw 2 at instant with some easy hoop to jump through - think 80% consistency (ala Predict in Miracles)) and possibly a 4 mana option (FoF/JTMS).
Opt/Weaker Brainstorm (perhaps a draw 2 put 1 on top)
The removal answers are fine for the most part. Yes, we don't have anything like Council's Judgment (Anguished Unmaking is so close, but the 3 life is way too much in this format), but that's not too big of a deal (it's fine to have some holes in the deck, but not to the extent it is right now). Finishers are fine as well - Tasigur, Snapcaster/Bolt, manlands, Clique, etc. The eventually winning part is not really a problem and with Eye of Ugin banned there really isn't any deck outside of something like Valakut that has true inevitability over Control.
JTMS would partially address the finisher and CA issue though. I'm not sure how much he'd actually help really since he would mostly be a SB card in fair MU's especially BGx, but BGx isn't really a problem for control. I'd rather see the other stuff be printed (the most important being a good 2 mana counter). Also, Caverns sucks
I mean they could just unban preordain so we can actually get good filtering instead of reprinting opt.
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Reactive blue players: in your opinion, what is the problem with your decks? And don't just say "we don't have Twin." Let's see if we can dig a little deeper. Is it an inability to close out games quickly? An inability to find answers? Weak answers? All of the above and, if so, what extent for each explanation?
I personally love a Preordain unban, but it means Twin is even less likely to come off the list and Preordain will definitely help Cheeri0s and Storm (less worryingly, Ad Nauseam too). I also like a JTMS unban, but if the problem is a lack of answers or a lack of early game consistency, JTMS doesn't solve that. I see arguments for and against both of these unbans, as well as SFM and Twin, but am not sure what the best option is.
Well... you want it? Here we go...
1. We lack any sort of consistency - I know this sounds obvious, but let me put it in perspective. If I am a player who needs to draw toe-to-toe with a burn player, not only do I need to draw proactively to react properly. I need to draw specifics and my specifics are less common comparative to the opponents threats. I'm not talking about the entire "well he had two Eidolon of the Great Revel" and I had Negate. I'm talking in order to have a chance, I need Dispel, Dispel, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Serum Visions and two lands, and he can have an ordinary draw. The burn player has a more consistent deck than I do, by a dramatic amount.
If both players have 6 lands, and I cast Serum Visions - I cannot decide my fate. My opponent casts Ancient Stirrings and I get hit with a Reality Smasher. Proactive decks feel like they are three or four steps above the reactive decks. If my opponent topdecks something dead, I have a slight chance, if they topdeck lucky, I cannot possibly climb back into the game. This is where I feel Wizards first tried this method to balance blue and banned Bloodbraid Elf, look how that worked out?
2. The removal is slightly lacking - Fatal Push was great step, it will help in a lot of situations, but it forces us into a color combination that doesn't suite many situations well. If I cast Path to Exile, during any of the first four critical turns, it becomes advantageous for my opponent. I don't have the tools to supplement the advantage gained. It seems like a strict Swords to Plowshares print would benefit. It feels seriously wrong to cast Path on a Glistener Elf, but your removal suite doesn't give you options otherwise in many situations.
So why are people playing reactive blue decks at all? Well we do have some advantages in the Modern format. Look at Scapeshift, it's difficult to interact with, and is a one card combo to help end the game, whether you ramp or not doesn't generally matter as long as you can interact, and it's the only deck in the format that has a chance against stumbling opponents.
I think that last line really hits home, Blue Reactive decks only work when the opponent stumbles, and we get lucky. If we start chaining Snapcasters with Kolaghan's Command and Cryptic Command you feel quite godly when the board is empty, the problem is this format doesn't have that situation arise often enough to warrant playing a blue deck.
3. Counter Magic is versatile enough, but not powerful enough. I replied to Seth when this thread was locked after he quoted me
Hey, thanks for the reply on the post. I can't respond since the thread got locked up again, but I definitely want to clarify something.
I only mentioned efficient counter magic, because the original post I was responding to also spoke about efficiency, not versatility. In that sense, I agree with you that blue countermagic isn't versatile, but I would also argue that it should be restrictive in versatility, at the cost of efficiency.
My personal preference is to have Absorb and Undermine modern legal. I honesty feel that would help solve the control deck problems, and at the same time, not lock blue into running 4 Counterspell in every deck.
I think that summarizes my feelings about the issue, I don't want to lock every blue deck running 4 Counterspell, but I want to lock in amazing options for going Ux, Absorb and Undermine are just amazing cards for what they can do. Snapcaster, into Undermine.... Drool. A control deck could actually close out a game against a greedy manabase without needing to run cheesy cards like Blood Moon. Disallow is just a complete joke, tagging more versatile options onto a 3 mana counterspell doesn't make it good. We have had Voidslime for years, and no one plays that garbage. Look at Counterflux, it's trash in this format. Cryptic Command is flexible and powerful, but you cannot afford to play 4 copies in most lists. We need raw power at the three mana slot, our versatility can stay at the two mana slot. As an example, our current countermagic, such as Mana Leak is not a bad card per say, it's just becomes a bad card when it's stuck in your hand, and when your opponents run on a 1-4 mana Axis, it can actually become worse than a Thoughtseize Topdeck. We need a level of manipulation before we need "all powerful" Counterspell.
4. Win Conditions exist, It's that simple, if we wanna win with Colonnade, we have shown we can do it. We just lack the tools to create the scenario. You can win with Madcap Skills, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, Celestial Colonnade, Sun Titan, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Baneslayer Angel, whatever. The problem is if we can't create a flow of the game through turns 1-6 we are dead in the water, if we skip a beat on any given turn. This is possible as Jeskai Control has won a Modern Pro Tour before, but you have to admit how insanely lucky he was at ensuring tempo and removal were on his side.
Splinter Twin ban has never personally bothered me, although it hurt me playing my favorite archetype. Beforehand I could lock down my opponents mana when they got slightly unfortunate, and turn that into an instant win. I definitely felt an amount of success with this deck in a way I never did with a generally reactive blue deck. I played Upheaval/Psychatog control at a competitive level when that was Standard, and that took you till turn 9, it felt like I was doing the same thing turn 4. So I understand the banning behind it, if I never get a blue card unbanned from the current list, Splinter Twin should be released, otherwise, you could unban every single blue card (except Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time) and I feel that would compensate for the problems blue lacks.
Now let's talk about the Standard Monster called Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Back in the Standard days people claimed that my article helped feed into the banning decision when the former Editor of SCG at the time, promoted my article (it's down now, so sorry I can't link it), even posting that I had a binder with 16 copies of the menacing planeswalker to exemplify no bias in my writing. Jace is the only card in the current pool that can help reactive blue decks increase consistency without forfeiting their early game effectiveness. So let's get something out of the way, Jace isn't coming down turn 4 in this format. If he is, it's a desperation move for the control player. 4 Mana Brainstorm doesn't sound appealing. The problem with Jace, is that people don't like his Fateseal, and I can understand that, but there is a large difference of being Fatesealed out of the game turn 10, and being Twinned out on turn 4. Control Mirror Matches are another reason that people would be skeptical about unbanning this Planeswalker, Caw-Blade was notorious for going to time. My answer to this is that it won't happen anymore. The legend rule has changed. We aren't casting Beleren into a Mind Sculptor to prolong the game. One of those players will find an answer, and quickly make stew out of the opposing control player.
Times have dramatically changed, we are closer to Legacy than ever before, and bannings have occurred annually. Everytime Wizards refuses to print a new cantrip, or a decent counterspell, puts us further and further away. It doesn't matter what they do to change the banned list, they would have to ban over half the format to have any significant effect for Blue mages. If you don't believe me, look at the recent announcement! Ban Gitaxian Probe? No problem, I'll run Street Wraith and Mishra's Bauble. Ban Golgari Grave-Troll? No problem, I'll just russian roulette you out of the game anyway. It seems the only thing they did was lower the Infect meta%, which probably made things worse for a Blue Mage.
TL;DR
1. Consistency for blue is a joke compared to other decks
2. Removal doesn't encompass the amount of versatile threats in the format
3. Countermagic is sub-par, but that's not to say it's not good enough for Modern
4. Splinter Twin should probably be the weakest card on the banned list, if it stays banned.
5. We could use Jace, it's not the monster you remember.
6. Wizards needs to stop banning to make us better, it's not going to work, this weekend is solid proof.
Twin isn't weaker than preordain.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Reactive blue players: in your opinion, what is the problem with your decks? And don't just say "we don't have Twin." Let's see if we can dig a little deeper. Is it an inability to close out games quickly? An inability to find answers? Weak answers? All of the above and, if so, what extent for each explanation?
I personally love a Preordain unban, but it means Twin is even less likely to come off the list and Preordain will definitely help Cheeri0s and Storm (less worryingly, Ad Nauseam too). I also like a JTMS unban, but if the problem is a lack of answers or a lack of early game consistency, JTMS doesn't solve that. I see arguments for and against both of these unbans, as well as SFM and Twin, but am not sure what the best option is.
As someone who has played Ux control since 2011-2012 (in modern), the two biggest weaknesses is a lack of a good 2 mana counter and inefficient CA engine(s). Even a way to filter draws would be nice, but depending on the deck Thought Scour does a good job of being an enabler and velocity, but something like Opt would be nice.
If we could get:
Counterspell
Accumulated Knowledge (or even a generic 2 mana draw 2 at instant with some easy hoop to jump through - think 80% consistency (ala Predict in Miracles)) and possibly a 4 mana option (FoF/JTMS).
Opt/Weaker Brainstorm (perhaps a draw 2 put 1 on top)
The removal answers are fine for the most part. Yes, we don't have anything like Council's Judgment (Anguished Unmaking is so close, but the 3 life is way too much in this format), but that's not too big of a deal (it's fine to have some holes in the deck, but not to the extent it is right now). Finishers are fine as well - Tasigur, Snapcaster/Bolt, manlands, Clique, etc. The eventually winning part is not really a problem and with Eye of Ugin banned there really isn't any deck outside of something like Valakut that has true inevitability over Control.
JTMS would partially address the finisher and CA issue though. I'm not sure how much he'd actually help really since he would mostly be a SB card in fair MU's especially BGx, but BGx isn't really a problem for control. I'd rather see the other stuff be printed (the most important being a good 2 mana counter). Also, Caverns sucks
I mean they could just unban preordain so we can actually get good filtering instead of reprinting opt.
Preordain is fine, good even, but for me in a format like Modern the instant speed is much preferable than the additional scry. The weaker brainstorm is probably much closer to what is needed imho (draw 2 put 1 on top) and it has the additional effect of being pretty crappy in standard due to limited shuffling options. Unfortunately, all of this is a pipe dream. I have minimal confidence U will get any of what is needed to make it a viable shell.
This is almost certainly the wrong approach. BANS DON'T WORK AT SHAPING FORMATS. Legacy self-regulates without bans. ...
ermmm... Treasure Cruise? Survival? Dig?
(and that is without going to the completely broken ones, like misstep.
Treasure Cruise is straight up broken.
Survival was the most broken Legacy deck in the past generation, with 3 different flavors all having a 60%+ opposing metagame matchup.
Lots of Legacy player would tell you Dig was completely broken in that format, especially with Omniscience.
This is almost certainly the wrong approach. BANS DON'T WORK AT SHAPING FORMATS. Legacy self-regulates without bans. ...
ermmm... Treasure Cruise? Survival? Dig?
(and that is without going to the completely broken ones, like misstep.
Treasure Cruise is straight up broken.
Survival was the most broken Legacy deck in the past generation, with 3 different flavors all having a 60%+ opposing metagame matchup.
Lots of Legacy player would tell you Dig was completely broken in that format, especially with Omniscience.
Yep, which proves total self-regulation is a myth. Force does not address everything, neither does Wasteland.
This is almost certainly the wrong approach. BANS DON'T WORK AT SHAPING FORMATS. Legacy self-regulates without bans. ...
ermmm... Treasure Cruise? Survival? Dig?
(and that is without going to the completely broken ones, like misstep.
Treasure Cruise is straight up broken.
Survival was the most broken Legacy deck in the past generation, with 3 different flavors all having a 60%+ opposing metagame matchup.
Lots of Legacy player would tell you Dig was completely broken in that format, especially with Omniscience.
Yep, which proves total self-regulation is a myth. Force does not address everything, neither does Wasteland.
I will say you are dramatically emphasizing Ktk's words. I would place his sentence with "Artificial Bans", which is what I would fairly assume he is speaking about. Formats do not self regulate with Artificial Bans. Which is what Modern has experienced in comparison to Legacy.
The way I see it with Reactive Blue is that for the first 4-5 turns, the decks are stuck between "Hold up Mana to try preventing my opponent from resolving threats" and "Try to not die to anything that's resolved".
I think the ideal answer would be some bastard child of Force Spike, Mana Leak, and Remand. Something like
"Spike Remand-UU"
Instant
Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 2. If the spell isn't countered, Draw a card.
Basically, what I think Blue wants is something that can act as a "hard" counter for the early game but becomes able to cycle in the late game.
That and I still maintain that Stoneforge Mystic and Jace should be unbanned, because the nightmares of Caw Blade make people forget that Mystic is useless once fetched and snuck in B. Skull and that Jace literally dies to Bolt
Reactive blue players: in your opinion, what is the problem with your decks? And don't just say "we don't have Twin." Let's see if we can dig a little deeper. Is it an inability to close out games quickly? An inability to find answers? Weak answers? All of the above and, if so, what extent for each explanation?
I personally love a Preordain unban, but it means Twin is even less likely to come off the list and Preordain will definitely help Cheeri0s and Storm (less worryingly, Ad Nauseam too). I also like a JTMS unban, but if the problem is a lack of answers or a lack of early game consistency, JTMS doesn't solve that. I see arguments for and against both of these unbans, as well as SFM and Twin, but am not sure what the best option is.
As someone who has played Ux control since 2011-2012 (in modern), the two biggest weaknesses is a lack of a good 2 mana counter and inefficient CA engine(s). Even a way to filter draws would be nice, but depending on the deck Thought Scour does a good job of being an enabler and velocity, but something like Opt would be nice.
If we could get:
Counterspell
Accumulated Knowledge (or even a generic 2 mana draw 2 at instant with some easy hoop to jump through - think 80% consistency (ala Predict in Miracles)) and possibly a 4 mana option (FoF/JTMS).
Opt/Weaker Brainstorm (perhaps a draw 2 put 1 on top)
The removal answers are fine for the most part. Yes, we don't have anything like Council's Judgment (Anguished Unmaking is so close, but the 3 life is way too much in this format), but that's not too big of a deal (it's fine to have some holes in the deck, but not to the extent it is right now). Finishers are fine as well - Tasigur, Snapcaster/Bolt, manlands, Clique, etc. The eventually winning part is not really a problem and with Eye of Ugin banned there really isn't any deck outside of something like Valakut that has true inevitability over Control.
JTMS would partially address the finisher and CA issue though. I'm not sure how much he'd actually help really since he would mostly be a SB card in fair MU's especially BGx, but BGx isn't really a problem for control. I'd rather see the other stuff be printed (the most important being a good 2 mana counter). Also, Caverns sucks
I mean they could just unban preordain so we can actually get good filtering instead of reprinting opt.
Preordain is fine, good even, but for me in a format like Modern the instant speed is much preferable than the additional scry. The weaker brainstorm is probably much closer to what is needed imho (draw 2 put 1 on top) and it has the additional effect of being pretty crappy in standard due to limited shuffling options. Unfortunately, all of this is a pipe dream. I have minimal confidence U will get any of what is needed to make it a viable shell.
I personally would say that the additional scry matters more since it would allow Combo/Control decks to dig deeper to find their wincons and seal away the game relatively early. Your ideas would work well too though. I personally am a bit more hopeful than you are about blue getting cards. IIRC, Wizards considering reprinting Opt in Standard, but didn't want to do it when Jeskai Ascendancy was legal.
The way I see it with Reactive Blue is that for the first 4-5 turns, the decks are stuck between "Hold up Mana to try preventing my opponent from resolving threats" and "Try to not die to anything that's resolved".
I think the ideal answer would be some bastard child of Force Spike, Mana Leak, and Remand. Something like
"Spike Remand-UU"
Instant
Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 2. If the spell isn't countered, Draw a card.
Basically, what I think Blue wants is something that can act as a "hard" counter for the early game but becomes able to cycle in the late game.
That and I still maintain that Stoneforge Mystic and Jace should be unbanned, because the nightmares of Caw Blade make people forget that Mystic is useless once fetched and snuck in B. Skull and that Jace literally dies to Bolt
I used to be a big advocate of unbanning SFM, but now that Junk is tier 1 I'm worried that it would help Junk far more than it helps any decks that actually need help.
Reactive blue players: in your opinion, what is the problem with your decks? And don't just say "we don't have Twin." Let's see if we can dig a little deeper. Is it an inability to close out games quickly? An inability to find answers? Weak answers? All of the above and, if so, what extent for each explanation?
As the card pool grows bigger and bigger, there is one way blue based Control decks will become Tier 1 again.
- Have a good win con. Nahiri, The Harbinger was kind of there, but not exactly what was needed. I don't know if Splinter Twin is on WOTC's books, but those decks need something like that. So, we either hope a new print help those decks by accident(a better Nahiri), or they design a good control finisher(something good with flash I suppose), or they unban Twin. That's the way I see it. I prefer the second way, but not gonna happen.
We certainly need some generous unbans, but Preordain is not coming IMO(decks like Cheerios and other will get what they want), and Jace, The Mind Sculptor won't help. It's easy to just ignore it and win if you are either a big mana deck or an aggro deck. Stoneforge Mystic is off the books as well, because it straight up helps a deck that's a true Tier 1 deck the most(Junk).
Atm, all cards in the banlist except Splinter Twin (maybe GSZ as well but thats a different beast) are a no go for Wizards the way I see it.
I really am not concerned about Preordain helping Cheerios or Storm. Both of those decks completely rely on keeping a creature that dies to every removal spell in the format alive for more than a turn while having at most 2 protection spells. There is no way that either of those decks could stay on top for long.
How do people feel about banning Cavern of Souls? Helps make Ux control decks better against the Eldrazi decks and makes Ceremonious Rejection a lot better. Unfortunately, would also hit fun tribal decks, but for a competitive format you have to weigh the more powerful decks than the fun decks unfortunately.
I think that problem with U control in modern is not the cards, but the meta itself
I think that the problem is the lack of
a) splinter twin
or
b) a good delver deck
When twin was legal, jeskai and grixis were good choices, cause splinter twin had the win button and the cards to play like a control deck against other strategies BUT was bad at playing control against the real control decks like jeskai.
On the other hand and if twin is not the answer, i think that a good delver deck (or tempo in general) would have the same effect as unbanning twin, but the problem with this option is that you need to introduce more cards than just unbanning twin (for example, if we look at legacy variants, wasteland, stifle and daze makes a really powerful tempo deck that can lose easily against control and would be awesome in modern)
anyway, i think that the worst problem for blue at the moment is the lack of good card selection
Reactive blue players: in your opinion, what is the problem with your decks? And don't just say "we don't have Twin." Let's see if we can dig a little deeper. Is it an inability to close out games quickly? An inability to find answers? Weak answers? All of the above and, if so, what extent for each explanation?
I personally love a Preordain unban, but it means Twin is even less likely to come off the list and Preordain will definitely help Cheeri0s and Storm (less worryingly, Ad Nauseam too). I also like a JTMS unban, but if the problem is a lack of answers or a lack of early game consistency, JTMS doesn't solve that. I see arguments for and against both of these unbans, as well as SFM and Twin, but am not sure what the best option is.
The problem that draw-go counterspell decks have in modern is that the field is to wide open for control decks to be able to flourish. Control decks need a settled meta-game in order to construct a 75 card shell that can deal with the anticipated problems to be presented. I don't think any single thing could really help with this issue because it is more a issue with the fundamental nature of the format. Perhaps if Blue could get better mid-range value creatures it would help elevate blue decks, I doubt that will happen because of WotC being terrified about making Blue even better in legacy. I actually think blue and red have suffered more from the focus on value creatures in the game as a whole because while Black, White, and Green have been given major increases into that area of design red and blue seem to have kept their "our creatures suck" quality while at the same time non-creature spells in those colors have been scaled back into the "now our non-creature spells kinda suck" realm also.
Wizards doesn't care about whether stuff is too powerful in Legacy. They don't test for the format, they organize few tournaments for it, they rarely ban or unban cards in it, they allow unhealthy metagames where there is a single best deck to persist, they don't make new cards for it, and with the exception of Eternal Masters, they don't profit off of it.
Mental Mistep is a example of a card in which WotC printed it with legacy in mind (some how they thought that making a free counter that any deck could run would help give non-blue decks some game forgetting that the most busted thing about metal mistep is that it was blue and hence pitched to FoW).
Regardless your statement doesn't actually deal with the real factor as to why I think WotC needs to print more powerful U/R mid-range Creatures, U/R non-creature spells have been powered down over and over set after set.
The reality is that yes WotC is weary about introducing powerful Blue things because of Legacy and have essentially only released powerful blue spells in Eternal masters selectively while Standard sets Blue options get poorer and poorer. While they don't design for Legacy any more than they do for Modern WotC in general has held a policy of blue counter magic getting worse and worse for over a decade. As long as the most popular type of Magic is bashing creatures into each other in standard Control will remain weakened counterspell is never coming back they have literally put counterspell on par with Dark Ritual. We are never going to get a new "fixed" ponder or preordain that doesn't cost 2 or more etc... Because the over decade long anti-2cc hard counter without hoops policy has spread to card selection what used to cost 1 now cost 2 or 3.
So if U(and to a lesser extent R) is no longer going to be given the types of tools within its segment of the color pie costed in a way and with a power level on par with say creatures in B/G/W can WotC at least find a way to print more potent threats in U/R which I still contend are the only 2 colors that are not really considered for value mid-range options.
Also a major factor in why WotC doesn't plan many events for Legacy is because it is the least accessible format for newer players
I think that problem with U control in modern is not the cards, but the meta itself
I think that the problem is the lack of
a) splinter twin
or
b) a good delver deck
When twin was legal, jeskai and grixis were good choices, cause splinter twin had the win button and the cards to play like a control deck against other strategies BUT was bad at playing control against the real control decks like jeskai.
On the other hand and if twin is not the answer, i think that a good delver deck (or tempo in general) would have the same effect as unbanning twin, but the problem with this option is that you need to introduce more cards than just unbanning twin (for example, if we look at legacy variants, wasteland, stifle and daze makes a really powerful tempo deck that can lose easily against control and would be awesome in modern)
anyway, i think that the worst problem for blue at the moment is the lack of good card selection
If U decks NEED to have a format warping combo to be good in modern then it is the worst color by a large margin in the format.
If Standard and Modern by extension are going be defined by proactive threats then I would argue that U needs better proactive threats. most of the potent modern playable U cards are from sets released over a decade ago, pretty much every other color has received some modern playable pushed threats and U gets things like 6 drop gear hulk that you will likely never live to cast.
I don't think Delver by its self will ever be that good in modern because of Abrupt Decay and LotV. Slashing for Tas is about the only reason that Delver is at all good right now.
The problem that draw-go counterspell decks have in modern is that the field is to wide open for control decks to be able to flourish. Control decks need a settled meta-game in order to construct a 75 card shell that can deal with the anticipated problems to be presented. I don't think any single thing could really help with this issue because it is more a issue with the fundamental nature of the format. Perhaps if Blue could get better mid-range value creatures it would help elevate blue decks, I doubt that will happen because of WotC being terrified about making Blue even better in legacy. I actually think blue and red have suffered more from the focus on value creatures in the game as a whole because while Black, White, and Green have been given major increases into that area of design red and blue seem to have kept their "our creatures suck" quality while at the same time non-creature spells in those colors have been scaled back into the "now our non-creature spells kinda suck" realm also.
Wizards doesn't care about whether stuff is too powerful in Legacy. They don't test for the format, they organize few tournaments for it, they rarely ban or unban cards in it, they allow unhealthy metagames where there is a single best deck to persist, they don't make new cards for it, and with the exception of Eternal Masters, they don't profit off of it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
While this is technically true, bans definitely haven't done a great job at improving competing decks. Non-Twin blue decks don't have a signficiantly higher meta share than they did when Twin was in the format and Wild Nacatl's banning didn't cause Doran and Student of Warfare to see any play.
Those blue reactive decks existed back when Twin was around too and haven't gotten much better since then. Grixis Control is a tier 2 deck, just like it was back then, while Jeskai, Esper, Faeries, and other decks are still tier 3 despite Twin being banned and despite getting Ancestral Vision, Nahiri, Fatal Push, and other tools. Nothing has changed, and I am pretty sure that other interactive blue decks like Scapeshift have actually gotten less popular since then.
So, you personally would like to go another year without a tier 1 blue deck.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
And there is the problem. The tools on the ban list and very unlikely outside a broken mechanic, to be improved. Wizards doesn't do dig and tutors for cheap anymore. (Note, delve is broken)
So what will we get? It won't be format stability. It won't likely be Blue cantrips.
Just let those cards off the list, and fuel combo control.
BTW, Storm is very stable as the gifts version. I don't know how much more stable it really would be, but it's nearly an interact or die situation already.
Spirits
Well... you want it? Here we go...
1. We lack any sort of consistency - I know this sounds obvious, but let me put it in perspective. If I am a player who needs to draw toe-to-toe with a burn player, not only do I need to draw proactively to react properly. I need to draw specifics and my specifics are less common comparative to the opponents threats. I'm not talking about the entire "well he had two Eidolon of the Great Revel" and I had Negate. I'm talking in order to have a chance, I need Dispel, Dispel, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Serum Visions and two lands, and he can have an ordinary draw. The burn player has a more consistent deck than I do, by a dramatic amount.
If both players have 6 lands, and I cast Serum Visions - I cannot decide my fate. My opponent casts Ancient Stirrings and I get hit with a Reality Smasher. Proactive decks feel like they are three or four steps above the reactive decks. If my opponent topdecks something dead, I have a slight chance, if they topdeck lucky, I cannot possibly climb back into the game. This is where I feel Wizards first tried this method to balance blue and banned Bloodbraid Elf, look how that worked out?
2. The removal is slightly lacking - Fatal Push was great step, it will help in a lot of situations, but it forces us into a color combination that doesn't suite many situations well. If I cast Path to Exile, during any of the first four critical turns, it becomes advantageous for my opponent. I don't have the tools to supplement the advantage gained. It seems like a strict Swords to Plowshares print would benefit. It feels seriously wrong to cast Path on a Glistener Elf, but your removal suite doesn't give you options otherwise in many situations.
So why are people playing reactive blue decks at all? Well we do have some advantages in the Modern format. Look at Scapeshift, it's difficult to interact with, and is a one card combo to help end the game, whether you ramp or not doesn't generally matter as long as you can interact, and it's the only deck in the format that has a chance against stumbling opponents.
I think that last line really hits home, Blue Reactive decks only work when the opponent stumbles, and we get lucky. If we start chaining Snapcasters with Kolaghan's Command and Cryptic Command you feel quite godly when the board is empty, the problem is this format doesn't have that situation arise often enough to warrant playing a blue deck.
3. Counter Magic is versatile enough, but not powerful enough. I replied to Seth when this thread was locked after he quoted me
I think that summarizes my feelings about the issue, I don't want to lock every blue deck running 4 Counterspell, but I want to lock in amazing options for going Ux, Absorb and Undermine are just amazing cards for what they can do. Snapcaster, into Undermine.... Drool. A control deck could actually close out a game against a greedy manabase without needing to run cheesy cards like Blood Moon. Disallow is just a complete joke, tagging more versatile options onto a 3 mana counterspell doesn't make it good. We have had Voidslime for years, and no one plays that garbage. Look at Counterflux, it's trash in this format. Cryptic Command is flexible and powerful, but you cannot afford to play 4 copies in most lists. We need raw power at the three mana slot, our versatility can stay at the two mana slot. As an example, our current countermagic, such as Mana Leak is not a bad card per say, it's just becomes a bad card when it's stuck in your hand, and when your opponents run on a 1-4 mana Axis, it can actually become worse than a Thoughtseize Topdeck. We need a level of manipulation before we need "all powerful" Counterspell.
4. Win Conditions exist, It's that simple, if we wanna win with Colonnade, we have shown we can do it. We just lack the tools to create the scenario. You can win with Madcap Skills, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, Celestial Colonnade, Sun Titan, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Baneslayer Angel, whatever. The problem is if we can't create a flow of the game through turns 1-6 we are dead in the water, if we skip a beat on any given turn. This is possible as Jeskai Control has won a Modern Pro Tour before, but you have to admit how insanely lucky he was at ensuring tempo and removal were on his side.
Let's now talk about Splinter Twin and Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Splinter Twin ban has never personally bothered me, although it hurt me playing my favorite archetype. Beforehand I could lock down my opponents mana when they got slightly unfortunate, and turn that into an instant win. I definitely felt an amount of success with this deck in a way I never did with a generally reactive blue deck. I played Upheaval/Psychatog control at a competitive level when that was Standard, and that took you till turn 9, it felt like I was doing the same thing turn 4. So I understand the banning behind it, if I never get a blue card unbanned from the current list, Splinter Twin should be released, otherwise, you could unban every single blue card (except Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time) and I feel that would compensate for the problems blue lacks.
Now let's talk about the Standard Monster called Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Back in the Standard days people claimed that my article helped feed into the banning decision when the former Editor of SCG at the time, promoted my article (it's down now, so sorry I can't link it), even posting that I had a binder with 16 copies of the menacing planeswalker to exemplify no bias in my writing. Jace is the only card in the current pool that can help reactive blue decks increase consistency without forfeiting their early game effectiveness. So let's get something out of the way, Jace isn't coming down turn 4 in this format. If he is, it's a desperation move for the control player. 4 Mana Brainstorm doesn't sound appealing. The problem with Jace, is that people don't like his Fateseal, and I can understand that, but there is a large difference of being Fatesealed out of the game turn 10, and being Twinned out on turn 4. Control Mirror Matches are another reason that people would be skeptical about unbanning this Planeswalker, Caw-Blade was notorious for going to time. My answer to this is that it won't happen anymore. The legend rule has changed. We aren't casting Beleren into a Mind Sculptor to prolong the game. One of those players will find an answer, and quickly make stew out of the opposing control player.
Times have dramatically changed, we are closer to Legacy than ever before, and bannings have occurred annually. Everytime Wizards refuses to print a new cantrip, or a decent counterspell, puts us further and further away. It doesn't matter what they do to change the banned list, they would have to ban over half the format to have any significant effect for Blue mages. If you don't believe me, look at the recent announcement! Ban Gitaxian Probe? No problem, I'll run Street Wraith and Mishra's Bauble. Ban Golgari Grave-Troll? No problem, I'll just russian roulette you out of the game anyway. It seems the only thing they did was lower the Infect meta%, which probably made things worse for a Blue Mage.
TL;DR
1. Consistency for blue is a joke compared to other decks
2. Removal doesn't encompass the amount of versatile threats in the format
3. Countermagic is sub-par, but that's not to say it's not good enough for Modern
4. Splinter Twin should probably be the weakest card on the banned list, if it stays banned.
5. We could use Jace, it's not the monster you remember.
6. Wizards needs to stop banning to make us better, it's not going to work, this weekend is solid proof.
As someone who has played Ux control since 2011-2012 (in modern), the two biggest weaknesses is a lack of a good 2 mana counter and inefficient CA engine(s). Even a way to filter draws would be nice, but depending on the deck Thought Scour does a good job of being an enabler and velocity, but something like Opt would be nice.
If we could get:
Counterspell
Accumulated Knowledge (or even a generic 2 mana draw 2 at instant with some easy hoop to jump through - think 80% consistency (ala Predict in Miracles)) and possibly a 4 mana option (FoF/JTMS).
Opt/Weaker Brainstorm (perhaps a draw 2 put 1 on top)
The removal answers are fine for the most part. Yes, we don't have anything like Council's Judgment (Anguished Unmaking is so close, but the 3 life is way too much in this format), but that's not too big of a deal (it's fine to have some holes in the deck, but not to the extent it is right now). Finishers are fine as well - Tasigur, Snapcaster/Bolt, manlands, Clique, etc. The eventually winning part is not really a problem and with Eye of Ugin banned there really isn't any deck outside of something like Valakut that has true inevitability over Control.
JTMS would partially address the finisher and CA issue though. I'm not sure how much he'd actually help really since he would mostly be a SB card in fair MU's especially BGx, but BGx isn't really a problem for control. I'd rather see the other stuff be printed (the most important being a good 2 mana counter). Also, Caverns sucks
100 percent agree
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
I mean they could just unban preordain so we can actually get good filtering instead of reprinting opt.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Twin isn't weaker than preordain.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Preordain is fine, good even, but for me in a format like Modern the instant speed is much preferable than the additional scry. The weaker brainstorm is probably much closer to what is needed imho (draw 2 put 1 on top) and it has the additional effect of being pretty crappy in standard due to limited shuffling options. Unfortunately, all of this is a pipe dream. I have minimal confidence U will get any of what is needed to make it a viable shell.
ermmm... Treasure Cruise? Survival? Dig?
(and that is without going to the completely broken ones, like misstep.
Treasure Cruise is straight up broken.
Survival was the most broken Legacy deck in the past generation, with 3 different flavors all having a 60%+ opposing metagame matchup.
Lots of Legacy player would tell you Dig was completely broken in that format, especially with Omniscience.
Yep, which proves total self-regulation is a myth. Force does not address everything, neither does Wasteland.
I will say you are dramatically emphasizing Ktk's words. I would place his sentence with "Artificial Bans", which is what I would fairly assume he is speaking about. Formats do not self regulate with Artificial Bans. Which is what Modern has experienced in comparison to Legacy.
Modern is different though, as there's some obviously broken cards sitting next to some rather confusing ones.
I think the ideal answer would be some bastard child of Force Spike, Mana Leak, and Remand. Something like
"Spike Remand-UU"
Instant
Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 2. If the spell isn't countered, Draw a card.
Basically, what I think Blue wants is something that can act as a "hard" counter for the early game but becomes able to cycle in the late game.
That and I still maintain that Stoneforge Mystic and Jace should be unbanned, because the nightmares of Caw Blade make people forget that Mystic is useless once fetched and snuck in B. Skull and that Jace literally dies to Bolt
I personally would say that the additional scry matters more since it would allow Combo/Control decks to dig deeper to find their wincons and seal away the game relatively early. Your ideas would work well too though. I personally am a bit more hopeful than you are about blue getting cards. IIRC, Wizards considering reprinting Opt in Standard, but didn't want to do it when Jeskai Ascendancy was legal.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
So basically, Miscalculation?
I used to be a big advocate of unbanning SFM, but now that Junk is tier 1 I'm worried that it would help Junk far more than it helps any decks that actually need help.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I really am not concerned about Preordain helping Cheerios or Storm. Both of those decks completely rely on keeping a creature that dies to every removal spell in the format alive for more than a turn while having at most 2 protection spells. There is no way that either of those decks could stay on top for long.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I think that the problem is the lack of
a) splinter twin
or
b) a good delver deck
When twin was legal, jeskai and grixis were good choices, cause splinter twin had the win button and the cards to play like a control deck against other strategies BUT was bad at playing control against the real control decks like jeskai.
On the other hand and if twin is not the answer, i think that a good delver deck (or tempo in general) would have the same effect as unbanning twin, but the problem with this option is that you need to introduce more cards than just unbanning twin (for example, if we look at legacy variants, wasteland, stifle and daze makes a really powerful tempo deck that can lose easily against control and would be awesome in modern)
anyway, i think that the worst problem for blue at the moment is the lack of good card selection
Mental Mistep is a example of a card in which WotC printed it with legacy in mind (some how they thought that making a free counter that any deck could run would help give non-blue decks some game forgetting that the most busted thing about metal mistep is that it was blue and hence pitched to FoW).
Regardless your statement doesn't actually deal with the real factor as to why I think WotC needs to print more powerful U/R mid-range Creatures, U/R non-creature spells have been powered down over and over set after set.
The reality is that yes WotC is weary about introducing powerful Blue things because of Legacy and have essentially only released powerful blue spells in Eternal masters selectively while Standard sets Blue options get poorer and poorer. While they don't design for Legacy any more than they do for Modern WotC in general has held a policy of blue counter magic getting worse and worse for over a decade. As long as the most popular type of Magic is bashing creatures into each other in standard Control will remain weakened counterspell is never coming back they have literally put counterspell on par with Dark Ritual. We are never going to get a new "fixed" ponder or preordain that doesn't cost 2 or more etc... Because the over decade long anti-2cc hard counter without hoops policy has spread to card selection what used to cost 1 now cost 2 or 3.
So if U(and to a lesser extent R) is no longer going to be given the types of tools within its segment of the color pie costed in a way and with a power level on par with say creatures in B/G/W can WotC at least find a way to print more potent threats in U/R which I still contend are the only 2 colors that are not really considered for value mid-range options.
Also a major factor in why WotC doesn't plan many events for Legacy is because it is the least accessible format for newer players
If U decks NEED to have a format warping combo to be good in modern then it is the worst color by a large margin in the format.
If Standard and Modern by extension are going be defined by proactive threats then I would argue that U needs better proactive threats. most of the potent modern playable U cards are from sets released over a decade ago, pretty much every other color has received some modern playable pushed threats and U gets things like 6 drop gear hulk that you will likely never live to cast.
I don't think Delver by its self will ever be that good in modern because of Abrupt Decay and LotV. Slashing for Tas is about the only reason that Delver is at all good right now.