What really makes this hurt is that they turned Modern into a ban format and then did this. So it's pretty clear what their plans are for Modern.
They at leadt are showing they are monitoring the format otherwise they would not be doing anything. We may not agree with their way of balancing through bans rather than unbans but at least they are not ignoring the format. They also gave their comment about being knowledgeable that the entire game of magic has turned to heavily on the threats being too good for the answers and are planning to shift that which will slowly influence modern so we need to wait a couple of years to recieve these new toys.
Why is everyone so mad? Wizards has no plans of axing Modern and they like that the format is doing well. Is this not good news?
Sure, that part is good news.
But the bad news is hearing high-profile tournaments described as "marketing". While I'm sure that's technically correct, it's still not what long-time, heavily-invested Modern players want to hear. Players want more opportunities to play high-caliber Magic, not fewer. As we've seen from SCG pulling most of its support, relying on 3rd party tournament organization is an unreliable way to go. WotC should be leading by example, not leading Modern out to pasture.
Its like playing competitive and supported Legacy.
No, it's not.
Playing Modern is distinctly not like playing Legacy, as both its supporters and detractors will agree.
As for Modern being supported, it just doesn't feel that way. That's why everyone is complaining about the announcement. Releasing one Modern Masters set every two years doesn't seem to drop prices very much, and despite WotC's feelings to the contrary, those prices are inevitably tied to the format's accessibility. Plus, reducing the number of high-profile tournaments gives Modern players fewer opportunities to play.
Maro's statement shouldn't come as welcome news to the players, because they just had their tournament support cut and they are now being told that this is all part of WotC's grand plan. And using EDH as a point of comparison is just insulting; no one wants to play competitive EDH, so of course there doesn't need to be WotC tournament support for it.
Ultimately, WotC is a business and they're going to do what's right for the business. I understand that high-profile Modern tournaments aren't necessarily right for the business, but I just wish that they had been forward with that information for the past few years; I would have just invested in Legacy instead, because pretty soon both Modern and Legacy are going to be living on LGS-level tournament support.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
We really needed no bans in January or just a Dredge ban but instead they shook up the format again by banning Gitaxian Probe. Not only that, they didn't even bother to put any effort into the rationale for banning. Just look at the difference between their explanation for banning Splinter Twin and their explanations for this year's bans. The removal of Modern from the Pro Tour did nothing to make the format have fewer bans. With confidence in the format already eroded, this announcement is the nail in the coffin.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern RGTron UGInfect URStorm WUBRAd Nauseam BRGrishoalbrand URGScapeshift WBGAbzan Company WUBRGAmulet Titan BRGLiving End WGBogles
Whether Bocephus has crazy purple hair or not, whether you agree that "it's Wizards' sandbox and we just pee in it" or not, he has a point: complainers are always louder.
I think thats not really true for wizards, i believe they are deaf on that ear. What they have is an eye for the numbers, and if enough modern events fire, if enough player participate, all is well for them. Because there will always be complains.
Fantastic, the first actual new we get about all of this is that Wizards is doing all of this on purpose. That's right double down on the terrible standard environments your R&D keep creating, and continue to take from Modern when it Standard fails. How could this not work?
I've already fired off another Tweet at him in response. I don't expect a reply, but we have to try.
Really people, if you have a twitter hit WotC up. I can supply a list of people to tweet to/at over this issue. The only way we stop this train wreck is to publicly voice our displeasure. Remember what we did when they first removed the PT? We need to get back to that level.
If anyone else has anymore contacts, I'd love to have them.
Why? It is the right move for wizards. And yes, it is the way legacy took. But it was clear that the format might take such a turn, after they axed the modern pro tour.
But still comparing to legacy, modern is in no trouble at all. Legacy got no support from wizards for years, and still does fine. I belive its a good thing if modern becomes independent of the premier events.
And you can twitter all you want, the only important thing in the end is, if you spend more or less money on magic than before. and since i believe most established modern players spend little money on it anyway (its one of the points of modern, after all) their voice in this regard may not be as loud and clear as you wish it to be.
So what, we are just supposed to watch silently as Modern is killed? Fat chance.
Also the issue with saying that Modern will be find cause look at Legacy. Do you really think the player base will maintain interest in Modern if it is unsupported? Or would you rather just jump into Legacy or Commander? Modern is just legacy sans the RL restriction. Without support why wouldn't you just drop Modern to play Legacy?
Also, my wife loves to open packs of Magic. That means I spend around 100 bucks every couple months to make her happy. She also loves Pokemon. I could easily switch brands. I could also get her into Hearthstone if I really tried.
As far as what is best for business, I think pushing Standard is best for short term growth, with supporting Modern is best for long term health. Once people get tired of the grind of Standard they have a place to go and play their older cards in a traditional 60 card format. Remove this, and many people will just leave the game all together. Modern exists as a repository for old standard player, and players that can be enticed to return to Standard. That last point is hugely important. Eventually Wizards will run out of new players. If there is no place for people who grew tired of standard over the years, there is no player base to tempt into Standard. Repeat customers are extremely important, and Wizards is eroding their repeat customer base.
Why is everyone so mad? Wizards has no plans of axing Modern and they like that the format is doing well. Is this not good news?
Sure, that part is good news.
But the bad news is hearing high-profile tournaments described as "marketing". While I'm sure that's technically correct, it's still not what long-time, heavily-invested Modern players want to hear. Players want more opportunities to play high-caliber Magic, not fewer. As we've seen from SCG pulling most of its support, relying on 3rd party tournament organization is an unreliable way to go. WotC should be leading by example, not leading Modern out to pasture.
Its like playing competitive and supported Legacy.
No, it's not.
Playing Modern is distinctly not like playing Legacy, as both its supporters and detractors will agree.
As for Modern being supported, it just doesn't feel that way. That's why everyone is complaining about the announcement. Releasing one Modern Masters set every two years doesn't seem to drop prices very much, and despite WotC's feelings to the contrary, those prices are inevitably tied to the format's accessibility. Plus, reducing the number of high-profile tournaments gives Modern players fewer opportunities to play.
Maro's statement shouldn't come as welcome news to the players, because they just had their tournament support cut and they are now being told that this is all part of WotC's grand plan. And using EDH as a point of comparison is just insulting; no one wants to play competitive EDH, so of course there doesn't need to be WotC tournament support for it.
Ultimately, WotC is a business and they're going to do what's right for the business. I understand that high-profile Modern tournaments aren't necessarily right for the business, but I just wish that they had been forward with that information for the past few years; I would have just invested in Legacy instead, because pretty soon both Modern and Legacy are going to be living on LGS-level tournament support.
Legacy has one big problem that modern does not and that is the reserve list. As long as wotc keeps giving us reprints the community can still grow even if prices stay high. Modern is not going to bave a shortage of staples.
We really needed no bans in January or just a Dredge ban but instead they shook up the format again by banning Gitaxian Probe. Not only that, they didn't even bother to put any effort into the rationale for banning. Just look at the difference between their explanation for banning Splinter Twin and their explanations for this year's bans. The removal of Modern from the Pro Tour did nothing to make the format have fewer bans. With confidence in the format already eroded, this announcement is the nail in the coffin.
I totally disagree. Probe needed to go and yes bans are still going on but we will eventually reach a point where modern can go without bans but there is a lot of history of mistakes that they had to go through.
Ultimately, WotC is a business and they're going to do what's right for the business.
It's hard to believe that when for the last several years, if not longer, they've constantly been doing things that are blatantly not right for the business.
Ultimately, WotC is a business and they're going to do what's right for the business.
It's hard to believe that when for the last several years, if not longer, they've constantly been doing things that are blatantly not right for the business.
Maybe the management of "what makes the most money for a business" isn't the best here, but I think CharonsObol's point stands that it is the whole point of a business. And I hear or read here about how successful Wizards has been doing for themselves in the past 10 years or so (despite really ******* it up recently in multiple formats).
What, may I ask you, has Wizards done that is blatantly wrong for business?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Why is everyone so mad? Wizards has no plans of axing Modern and they like that the format is doing well. Is this not good news?
Sure, that part is good news.
But the bad news is hearing high-profile tournaments described as "marketing". While I'm sure that's technically correct, it's still not what long-time, heavily-invested Modern players want to hear. Players want more opportunities to play high-caliber Magic, not fewer. As we've seen from SCG pulling most of its support, relying on 3rd party tournament organization is an unreliable way to go. WotC should be leading by example, not leading Modern out to pasture.
Exactly how much high-level Modern do you want to play? Just look up tournaments and travel to them. They happen all the time all over the country.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Ultimately, WotC is a business and they're going to do what's right for the business.
It's hard to believe that when for the last several years, if not longer, they've constantly been doing things that are blatantly not right for the business.
Maybe the management of "what makes the most money for a business" isn't the best here, but I think CharonsObol's point stands that it is the whole point of a business. And I hear or read here about how successful Wizards has been doing for themselves in the past 10 years or so (despite really ******* it up recently in multiple formats).
What, may I ask you, has Wizards done that is blatantly wrong for business?
What have they done that's blatantly wrong for business? Pretty much everything outside of R&D itself, and even R&D has had some major goofups recently. The company's run pretty poorly.
It'd be more accurate to say they'll do what they think is right for business, no matter how wrongheaded that often is.
As someone who has had 2 businesses fail in his life time, I think simply staying in business and staying above water, shows at least some success. There's no doubt that many things could be better ... cough, cough MTGO... but overall the prices of cards seems to be pointing in the right direction of profit to me. Cards spike because of demand, which wouldn't happen if the business model was destroyed.
I do think things are really on the downswing right now, but my hope is that Wizards will hire someone that can find their way back to popularity. Despite how much I hate it, it begins with Standard.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Bocephus, during the ELDRAZI WINTER, you said the same thing. Meaning that for every one if those unhappy players, there are happy ones not complaining. Who is Wotc to cater to?
Again, you saying that thing does not make it true. Actually, you were flat out wrong back then, and you are just wrong this time.
Yep you are right, everyone quit playing, took their decks and pouted at home because there was a single deck no one wanted to play against.
Local attendance wasnt hurt in the least. We still had the numbers for FNM and other local events during this so called Eldrazi Winter. And yes a few people played the deck, it didnt stop others from playing the format.
I wonder how much actual playing you do.
Quote from cfusionpm »
What evidence do you have to support this claim? Also, you make it sound like a 1:1 ratio, which would still be incredibly unhealthy, if actually true.
I am sure its greater then a 1:1 in favor of those that dont complain and just play the format. Attendance numbers are there. Wotc sees the numbers from local events. FNMs, PPTQs. if the numbers were bad, they would shift toward what the complainers are complaining about. Since they have held course, I would say thats evidence enough the non complainers out weigh the complainers.
The same dozen or so people are complaining about the same things they have been complaining about for months. I will ask again, if you are not happy with the format, why play it? Why force those enjoying the format to play your vision for the format? Ever occur to anyone complaining, those playing now might not like what those complaining desire?
Quote from Lord Seth »
It's hard to believe that when for the last several years, if not longer, they've constantly been doing things that are blatantly not right for the business.
What the vocal player base desires, and what Wotc needs to stay in business are 2 very different things.
Players look at it as a game. Wotc sees it as a income.
The fact Wotc has stayed in business for over 20 years says volumes of their understanding of what it takes to stay in business.
Ultimately, WotC is a business and they're going to do what's right for the business.
It's hard to believe that when for the last several years, if not longer, they've constantly been doing things that are blatantly not right for the business.
Maybe the management of "what makes the most money for a business" isn't the best here, but I think CharonsObol's point stands that it is the whole point of a business. And I hear or read here about how successful Wizards has been doing for themselves in the past 10 years or so (despite really ******* it up recently in multiple formats).
What, may I ask you, has Wizards done that is blatantly wrong for business?
FoodChainGoblins has this right. It's hard to argue with the scoreboard.
Magic has experienced eight consecutive years of growth. On what grounds can you (@Lord Seth) argue with those results?
I mean, I don't like some of WotC's decisions either, but they've done their market research and it has seemingly paid off. Sure, some of their decisions alienate me personally, but I'm still here playing Magic, and so are many other old-timers.
Exactly how much high-level Modern do you want to play? Just look up tournaments and travel to them. They happen all the time all over the country.
I play very little high-level Modern, mostly because there aren't many high-level tournaments in my area.
Your response is shortsighted; we can't all live in Boston, or more generally, in major urban areas. Traveling to tournaments requires that you have a car or the discretionary income to fly, not to mention a complete weekend worth of free time to spare.
I don't want to get into the specific details about where I live, but if you lived in Montana or had to take care of a family, you'd feel differently about your response. Magic is a hobby. Fewer tournaments literally means less accessibility for some of us. We may have an equal opportunity to play, but we definitely don't have equal access.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
After reading Maro' s response, I think I know what to do.
No More Standard (I keep buying complete set x4 for each new set since I play this game), less expense on Modern(look at my signature). As a result, I can save more money for my family.
You really piss me off, Wizards.
FoodChainGoblins has this right. It's hard to argue with the scoreboard.
Sure, let's look at the scoreboard. The scoreboard says Hearthstone is winning despite being much, much younger.
Magic has experienced eight consecutive years of growth. On what grounds can you (@Lord Seth) argue with those results?
And that growth is because of one thing primarily: Duels of the Planeswalkers. A game that Wizards of the Coast didn't even make (as shown by the fact people liked it). But perhaps someone wants to say it was smart of them to give the license to someone so they should get credit. Okay... but that was 8 years ago.
Magic's growth has mostly come from them coasting on the fumes of a smart decision they made 8 years ago and the fact that due to being at the top of the heap, Magic has managed to keep itself self-perpetuating despite their many missteps, as it's what people gravitate to simply because it's easiest to find people to play with. But we've definitely started seeing their poor decisions starting to bite them back; you mention it posting growth, but that growth has slowed down compared to where it used to be. You can't just coast on those fumes forever.
Like I said, their R&D department is perhaps the one thing in the company that isn't incompetent (although it does still have issues). That manages to keep things afloat. But their decisions in practically everything else are pretty poor and have prevented the game's growth from being as successful as it could have been.
FoodChainGoblins has this right. It's hard to argue with the scoreboard.
Sure, let's look at the scoreboard. The scoreboard says Hearthstone is winning despite being much, much younger.
Magic has experienced eight consecutive years of growth. On what grounds can you (@Lord Seth) argue with those results?
And that growth is because of one thing primarily: Duels of the Planeswalkers. A game that Wizards of the Coast didn't even make (as shown by the fact people liked it). But perhaps someone wants to say it was smart of them to give the license to someone so they should get credit. Okay... but that was 8 years ago.
Magic's growth has mostly come from them coasting on the fumes of a smart decision they made 8 years ago and the fact that due to being at the top of the heap, Magic has managed to keep itself self-perpetuating despite their many missteps, as it's what people gravitate to simply because it's easiest to find people to play with. But we've definitely started seeing their poor decisions starting to bite them back; you mention it posting growth, but that growth has slowed down compared to where it used to be. You can't just coast on those fumes forever.
Like I said, their R&D department is perhaps the one thing in the company that isn't incompetent (although it does still have issues). That manages to keep things afloat. But their decisions in practically everything else are pretty poor and have prevented the game's growth from being as successful as it could have been.
Any data to back these claims up?
During the just the last ten years, Wizards has outlasted several fairly popular card games, and remains unchallenged in the paper market in the United States. YGO and Pokemon are second and third by quite a fair margin. Yu-Gi-Oh has better worldwide sales, but the game is extremely popular in China and Japan, where Magic is only kind of popular.
And Hearthstone is only ahead in online sales because it is literally the only way to play that game. A lot of players at locals don't play on MTGO because they don't want to spend real money on Magic cards they will never touch.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Exactly how much high-level Modern do you want to play? Just look up tournaments and travel to them. They happen all the time all over the country.
I play very little high-level Modern, mostly because there aren't many high-level tournaments in my area.
Your response is shortsighted; we can't all live in Boston, or more generally, in major urban areas. Traveling to tournaments requires that you have a car or the discretionary income to fly, not to mention a complete weekend worth of free time to spare.
I don't want to get into the specific details about where I live, but if you lived in Montana or had to take care of a family, you'd feel differently about your response. Magic is a hobby. Fewer tournaments literally means less accessibility for some of us. We may have an equal opportunity to play, but we definitely don't have equal access.
Thanks to Wizards' bottom line, there will always be more Standard high-level events than Modern ones. So let me ask you this: how many high-level Standard events are there in your area? If you truly live in the boonies, I'm guessing not very many. Do you expect Wizards to bend over backwards so that they can get some extra Modern support happening in underpopulated areas? There just isn't any monetary incentive for them to do that. Especially now that we've seen Standard become cannibalized by Modern, and now that Modern has become such a crucial part of the SCG tour and other tournament circuits run by third parties. It makes perfect sense that Wizards would want to scale back on Modern tournament support.
Like you said, Magic is a hobby. Working full-time, raising a family, spending money on things other than travel, etc. are all decisions you have made. There's nothing wrong with that, but at the end of the day, everyone decides how much time/money they want to dedicate to their hobbies, and those amounts obviously vary depending on external factors like location. It's not Wizards's fault you don't live in Boston. And it's not reasonable for customers (you) to expect companies (Wizards) to always cater to their individual needs (high-level events in rural areas??).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Exactly how much high-level Modern do you want to play? Just look up tournaments and travel to them. They happen all the time all over the country.
I play very little high-level Modern, mostly because there aren't many high-level tournaments in my area.
Your response is shortsighted; we can't all live in Boston, or more generally, in major urban areas. Traveling to tournaments requires that you have a car or the discretionary income to fly, not to mention a complete weekend worth of free time to spare.
I don't want to get into the specific details about where I live, but if you lived in Montana or had to take care of a family, you'd feel differently about your response. Magic is a hobby. Fewer tournaments literally means less accessibility for some of us. We may have an equal opportunity to play, but we definitely don't have equal access.
Thanks to Wizards' bottom line, there will always be more Standard high-level events than Modern ones. So let me ask you this: how many high-level Standard events are there in your area? If you truly live in the boonies, I'm guessing not very many. Do you expect Wizards to bend over backwards so that they can get some extra Modern support happening in underpopulated areas? There just isn't any monetary incentive for them to do that. Especially now that we've seen Standard become cannibalized by Modern, and now that Modern has become such a crucial part of the SCG tour and other tournament circuits run by third parties. It makes perfect sense that Wizards would want to scale back on Modern tournament support.
No, I don't expect them to bend over backwards, but I did expect them to provide tournament support. Providing tournament support, including high-level support, to make the format visible doesn't seem like too much to ask. Modern was supposed to be their endorsed, competitive, non-rotating format. In light of recent events, it feels like it's losing WotC's endorsement, which in turn will make it less competitive, because there will be fewer high-profile events to play in.
Like you said, Magic is a hobby. Working full-time, raising a family, spending money on things other than travel, etc. are all decisions you have made. There's nothing wrong with that, but at the end of the day, everyone decides how much time/money they want to dedicate to their hobbies, and those amounts obviously vary depending on external factors like location. It's not Wizards's fault you don't live in Boston. And it's not reasonable for customers (you) to expect companies (Wizards) to always cater to their individual needs (high-level events in rural areas??).
I shouldn't have to tell you that you sound like an indignant twenty-something, but you should still quit while you're behind.
My comments aren't about some thinly-veiled entitlement to play a game I enjoy. My comments are about WotC needing to respect their customers enough to not mislead them. Being competitive in Magic takes a lot of things, including time and money. Those are precious commodities for most of us, yourself hopefully included. When a player invests his or her time and money into the game, you can't just dismiss that person by suggesting that their inability to compensate for program-level changes is actually just their own fault. We can't just pick up and leave our homes, jobs, and responsibilities to overcome years' worth of life choices resulting in Magic being a low-priority. For most people, Magic is a hobby, not a lifestyle.
If I knew that WotC were going to make it harder to play Modern, I wouldn't have invested in Modern. Simple as that. And it's not unreasonable to say. I like Magic, and I didn't expect WotC to make it harder for me to play a format that they've spent years endorsing.
Public Mod Note
(ktkenshinx):
Warning for trolling -ktkenshinx-
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Other successful card games (online and paper) all have a "standard" and a "modern" equivalent. One format for new releases, and one "bigger" format with everything.
(just to be clear, legacy can't be that "bigger" format in Magic, not since the reserved list... So modern is Wizards' only option here as it has no such restriction. Legacy was doomed to die from the start, whereas modern can be reprinted as much as they see fit).
In these other successful card games (hearthstone, pokemon etc) the older, "bigger" format is supported with normal-priced boosters and regular releases. The "standard" format is seen as a gateway to the larger game, and also a focus for competitive events. In Magic, the older "bigger" format is given infrequent releases with short print-runs and hugely over-costed booster prices. This isn't proper support.
Now imagine a world where the following happens:
- 1 modern masters set every year
- 3 standard set-releases every year
- A 1:3 ratio of modern:standard events in the year
- All booster products the same price
- All sets given a full print-run
In this scenario, modern is given more importance as the "core" of magic, some competitive support, and standard is the main focus for competitive events as well as pushing the new product to consumers. Modern staple prices would drop by a reasonable amount, but remain stable due to increased interest from competitive-level coverage and a new set evert year. Increased interest would see secondary markets being more active, with people trading into and out of decks. Generally the whole scenario would be better.
What we have currently is a classic scenario of board-meeting decisions being made. Someone has expressed nervousness about reprinting valuable cards, so they've adopted a very expensive, reduced print-run way to reprint cards. The act of doing this has affected people's ability to engage and buy-into the format in the long term. Reducing tournament support has lessened consumer interest, so they've completely shot themselves in the foot from a business perspective. Now, the guy in the suit who just looks at numbers thinks modern looks like a poor investment, but taking the wider perspective, they've just adopted the wrong model. Taking a leaf out of other games' successes is the way to go, and modern should be a solid 1/3rd of their constructed-format income, as it represents the "bigger" format that every other similar game has, and is necessary to the long term success of magic as a game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Why is everyone so mad? Wizards has no plans of axing Modern and they like that the format is doing well. Is this not good news?
Sure, that part is good news.
But the bad news is hearing high-profile tournaments described as "marketing". While I'm sure that's technically correct, it's still not what long-time, heavily-invested Modern players want to hear. Players want more opportunities to play high-caliber Magic, not fewer. As we've seen from SCG pulling most of its support, relying on 3rd party tournament organization is an unreliable way to go. WotC should be leading by example, not leading Modern out to pasture.
Its like playing competitive and supported Legacy.
No, it's not.
Playing Modern is distinctly not like playing Legacy, as both its supporters and detractors will agree.
As for Modern being supported, it just doesn't feel that way. That's why everyone is complaining about the announcement. Releasing one Modern Masters set every two years doesn't seem to drop prices very much, and despite WotC's feelings to the contrary, those prices are inevitably tied to the format's accessibility. Plus, reducing the number of high-profile tournaments gives Modern players fewer opportunities to play.
Maro's statement shouldn't come as welcome news to the players, because they just had their tournament support cut and they are now being told that this is all part of WotC's grand plan. And using EDH as a point of comparison is just insulting; no one wants to play competitive EDH, so of course there doesn't need to be WotC tournament support for it.
Ultimately, WotC is a business and they're going to do what's right for the business. I understand that high-profile Modern tournaments aren't necessarily right for the business, but I just wish that they had been forward with that information for the past few years; I would have just invested in Legacy instead, because pretty soon both Modern and Legacy are going to be living on LGS-level tournament support.
Legacy has one big problem that modern does not and that is the reserve list. As long as wotc keeps giving us reprints the community can still grow even if prices stay high. Modern is not going to bave a shortage of staples.
The reserve list may have accelerated the problem, but Modern has the same issues otherwise. The message they have been sending out for months now is that the format is strictly a collectors only format. It's not for people interested in playing competitive magic: For that they want people to play standard where they can keep pushing cards. This means that eventually the only way newer players will be able to play modern is by proxy just the same as legacy, and in fact many players already do play proxy modern because the core cards like Noble Hierarch and Zendikar fetches are very expensive, and with the spikey nature of the secondary market it makes it hard to plan financially to buy into sideboard cards when a new deck pops up like Puresteel paladin Cheerios. The market couldn't even adjust to how fast that Chalice of the void spiked due to market manipulation. I think the biggest benefit the format can have is letting go of proxy hate in the modern community and letting others play modern at FNM. It's been a great help to Legacy tournaments locally and it would definitely get more people in on modern nights at the game store.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Other successful card games (online and paper) all have a "standard" and a "modern" equivalent. One format for new releases, and one "bigger" format with everything.
(just to be clear, legacy can't be that "bigger" format in Magic, not since the reserved list... So modern is Wizards' only option here as it has no such restriction. Legacy was doomed to die from the start, whereas modern can be reprinted as much as they see fit).
In these other successful card games (hearthstone, pokemon etc) the older, "bigger" format is supported with normal-priced boosters and regular releases. The "standard" format is seen as a gateway to the larger game, and also a focus for competitive events. In Magic, the older "bigger" format is given infrequent releases with short print-runs and hugely over-costed booster prices. This isn't proper support.
Now imagine a world where the following happens:
- 1 modern masters set every year
- 3 standard set-releases every year
- A 1:3 ratio of modern:standard events in the year
- All booster products the same price
- All sets given a full print-run
In this scenario, modern is given more importance as the "core" of magic, some competitive support, and standard is the main focus for competitive events as well as pushing the new product to consumers. Modern staple prices would drop by a reasonable amount, but remain stable due to increased interest from competitive-level coverage and a new set evert year. Increased interest would see secondary markets being more active, with people trading into and out of decks. Generally the whole scenario would be better.
What we have currently is a classic scenario of board-meeting decisions being made. Someone has expressed nervousness about reprinting valuable cards, so they've adopted a very expensive, reduced print-run way to reprint cards. The act of doing this has affected people's ability to engage and buy-into the format in the long term. Reducing tournament support has lessened consumer interest, so they've completely shot themselves in the foot from a business perspective. Now, the guy in the suit who just looks at numbers thinks modern looks like a poor investment, but taking the wider perspective, they've just adopted the wrong model. Taking a leaf out of other games' successes is the way to go, and modern should be a solid 1/3rd of their constructed-format income, as it represents the "bigger" format that every other similar game has, and is necessary to the long term success of magic as a game.
I maybe wrong about this but wild (hearhstones eternal format) seems like it is hugely irrevelant more so than even modern has ever been and now is. Same with ygo where traditional is not even a thing. When I played ygo once advanced become the tournament format traditional basically became vintage where it is not supported at all and is only for collectors.
Why is everyone so mad? Wizards has no plans of axing Modern and they like that the format is doing well. Is this not good news?
Sure, that part is good news.
But the bad news is hearing high-profile tournaments described as "marketing". While I'm sure that's technically correct, it's still not what long-time, heavily-invested Modern players want to hear. Players want more opportunities to play high-caliber Magic, not fewer. As we've seen from SCG pulling most of its support, relying on 3rd party tournament organization is an unreliable way to go. WotC should be leading by example, not leading Modern out to pasture.
Its like playing competitive and supported Legacy.
No, it's not.
Playing Modern is distinctly not like playing Legacy, as both its supporters and detractors will agree.
As for Modern being supported, it just doesn't feel that way. That's why everyone is complaining about the announcement. Releasing one Modern Masters set every two years doesn't seem to drop prices very much, and despite WotC's feelings to the contrary, those prices are inevitably tied to the format's accessibility. Plus, reducing the number of high-profile tournaments gives Modern players fewer opportunities to play.
Maro's statement shouldn't come as welcome news to the players, because they just had their tournament support cut and they are now being told that this is all part of WotC's grand plan. And using EDH as a point of comparison is just insulting; no one wants to play competitive EDH, so of course there doesn't need to be WotC tournament support for it.
Ultimately, WotC is a business and they're going to do what's right for the business. I understand that high-profile Modern tournaments aren't necessarily right for the business, but I just wish that they had been forward with that information for the past few years; I would have just invested in Legacy instead, because pretty soon both Modern and Legacy are going to be living on LGS-level tournament support.
Legacy has one big problem that modern does not and that is the reserve list. As long as wotc keeps giving us reprints the community can still grow even if prices stay high. Modern is not going to bave a shortage of staples.
The reserve list may have accelerated the problem, but Modern has the same issues otherwise. The message they have been sending out for months now is that the format is strictly a collectors only format. It's not for people interested in playing competitive magic: For that they want people to play standard where they can keep pushing cards. This means that eventually the only way newer players will be able to play modern is by proxy just the same as legacy, and in fact many players already do play proxy modern because the core cards like Noble Hierarch and Zendikar fetches are very expensive, and with the spikey nature of the secondary market it makes it hard to plan financially to buy into sideboard cards when a new deck pops up like Puresteel paladin Cheerios. The market couldn't even adjust to how fast that Chalice of the void spiked due to market manipulation. I think the biggest benefit the format can have is letting go of proxy hate in the modern community and letting others play modern at FNM. It's been a great help to Legacy tournaments locally and it would definitely get more people in on modern nights at the game store.
They can solve the price issue with a more frequent reprint cycle, or use an unlimited print run for MMA serie.
But this will attract more people playing Modern and keep hurting their Standard market. Thus, they will NOT do this at the moment.
Other successful card games (online and paper) all have a "standard" and a "modern" equivalent. One format for new releases, and one "bigger" format with everything.
(just to be clear, legacy can't be that "bigger" format in Magic, not since the reserved list... So modern is Wizards' only option here as it has no such restriction. Legacy was doomed to die from the start, whereas modern can be reprinted as much as they see fit).
In these other successful card games (hearthstone, pokemon etc) the older, "bigger" format is supported with normal-priced boosters and regular releases. The "standard" format is seen as a gateway to the larger game, and also a focus for competitive events. In Magic, the older "bigger" format is given infrequent releases with short print-runs and hugely over-costed booster prices. This isn't proper support.
Now imagine a world where the following happens:
- 1 modern masters set every year
- 3 standard set-releases every year
- A 1:3 ratio of modern:standard events in the year
- All booster products the same price
- All sets given a full print-run
In this scenario, modern is given more importance as the "core" of magic, some competitive support, and standard is the main focus for competitive events as well as pushing the new product to consumers. Modern staple prices would drop by a reasonable amount, but remain stable due to increased interest from competitive-level coverage and a new set evert year. Increased interest would see secondary markets being more active, with people trading into and out of decks. Generally the whole scenario would be better.
What we have currently is a classic scenario of board-meeting decisions being made. Someone has expressed nervousness about reprinting valuable cards, so they've adopted a very expensive, reduced print-run way to reprint cards. The act of doing this has affected people's ability to engage and buy-into the format in the long term. Reducing tournament support has lessened consumer interest, so they've completely shot themselves in the foot from a business perspective. Now, the guy in the suit who just looks at numbers thinks modern looks like a poor investment, but taking the wider perspective, they've just adopted the wrong model. Taking a leaf out of other games' successes is the way to go, and modern should be a solid 1/3rd of their constructed-format income, as it represents the "bigger" format that every other similar game has, and is necessary to the long term success of magic as a game.
There seems to be a very serious disconnect in part of the player base in how Modern or any other non Standard constructed format can not be king of Wotc. Wotc has to have Standard as its king because the king pushes 'NEW' product. See Wotc is in a business of printing and selling boxes and packs of trading cards that can be played in this little game they have. Wotc has seen and knows Modern could easily be the number one format for the company, but they also know that Modern doesnt sell near the number of packs Standard does. Ill say it again, what Wotc needs from the game is very different from what the player base wants from the game. The guys complaining and then say they play the same deck week in and week out are not making Wotc any money. They are aiming at the people with money to switch decks regularly or are cracking packs or buying boxes/cases. Why worry about coins when you can collect paper money? If Wotc ever gets to the point they have to worry about the coins, the game is in huge trouble.
As for Maros 'words', I really dont understand a group of people complaining about a hand full of events in any given year. Push your local LGS to play Modern and run events weekly, FNMs, weekend event. Build a local player base for the format. Then you can play when you wish. A group of players complaining over a small number of high level events that the majority probably wont travel to or play in seems counter productive. Work at the local level, the LGS will work on having larger events if its worth it for them.
Other successful card games (online and paper) all have a "standard" and a "modern" equivalent. One format for new releases, and one "bigger" format with everything.
(just to be clear, legacy can't be that "bigger" format in Magic, not since the reserved list... So modern is Wizards' only option here as it has no such restriction. Legacy was doomed to die from the start, whereas modern can be reprinted as much as they see fit).
In these other successful card games (hearthstone, pokemon etc) the older, "bigger" format is supported with normal-priced boosters and regular releases. The "standard" format is seen as a gateway to the larger game, and also a focus for competitive events. In Magic, the older "bigger" format is given infrequent releases with short print-runs and hugely over-costed booster prices. This isn't proper support.
Now imagine a world where the following happens:
- 1 modern masters set every year
- 3 standard set-releases every year
- A 1:3 ratio of modern:standard events in the year
- All booster products the same price
- All sets given a full print-run
In this scenario, modern is given more importance as the "core" of magic, some competitive support, and standard is the main focus for competitive events as well as pushing the new product to consumers. Modern staple prices would drop by a reasonable amount, but remain stable due to increased interest from competitive-level coverage and a new set evert year. Increased interest would see secondary markets being more active, with people trading into and out of decks. Generally the whole scenario would be better.
What we have currently is a classic scenario of board-meeting decisions being made. Someone has expressed nervousness about reprinting valuable cards, so they've adopted a very expensive, reduced print-run way to reprint cards. The act of doing this has affected people's ability to engage and buy-into the format in the long term. Reducing tournament support has lessened consumer interest, so they've completely shot themselves in the foot from a business perspective. Now, the guy in the suit who just looks at numbers thinks modern looks like a poor investment, but taking the wider perspective, they've just adopted the wrong model. Taking a leaf out of other games' successes is the way to go, and modern should be a solid 1/3rd of their constructed-format income, as it represents the "bigger" format that every other similar game has, and is necessary to the long term success of magic as a game.
There seems to be a very serious disconnect in part of the player base in how Modern or any other non Standard constructed format can not be king of Wotc. Wotc has to have Standard as its king because the king pushes 'NEW' product. See Wotc is in a business of printing and selling boxes and packs of trading cards that can be played in this little game they have. Wotc has seen and knows Modern could easily be the number one format for the company, but they also know that Modern doesnt sell near the number of packs Standard does. Ill say it again, what Wotc needs from the game is very different from what the player base wants from the game. The guys complaining and then say they play the same deck week in and week out are not making Wotc any money. They are aiming at the people with money to switch decks regularly or are cracking packs or buying boxes/cases. Why worry about coins when you can collect paper money? If Wotc ever gets to the point they have to worry about the coins, the game is in huge trouble.
As for Maros 'words', I really dont understand a group of people complaining about a hand full of events in any given year. Push your local LGS to play Modern and run events weekly, FNMs, weekend event. Build a local player base for the format. Then you can play when you wish. A group of players complaining over a small number of high level events that the majority probably wont travel to or play in seems counter productive. Work at the local level, the LGS will work on having larger events if its worth it for them.
Bocephus,the idea above actually sounds quite reasonable.Standard would still get a lot more support, but Wizards would actually grow the profits because I don't buy Standard, I have actually sworn off sealed product, but I would reconsider for regular Modern support. the biggest reason a lot of people myself included don't switch Modern decks frequently is because it is HUGELY expensive, prohibitively so for anyone who is on any real budget. if once a year Modern got a set full of staples with a good run and reasonable msrp, i would draft it and build all the Modern decks. there are enough high value cards that by the time Wizards got through everything, the first things printed would be climbing back up. as far as needing new products to sell better, I think it would makemore sense for Wizards to want reprints to sell better and be able to slash R&D, not NEED as many new cards. or even just be more aggressive about reprints and slotting in Modern cards, that would be enough if they just took it seriously, instead of.....wow, I just got stopped in my tracks, have we not had a really relevant Modern staple reprinted in Standard since THEROS??? that can'tbe correct?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Yep you are right, everyone quit playing, took their decks and pouted at home because there was a single deck no one wanted to play against.
Local attendance wasnt hurt in the least. We still had the numbers for FNM and other local events during this so called Eldrazi Winter. And yes a few people played the deck, it didnt stop others from playing the format.
I wonder how much actual playing you do.
You are fooling yourself that Eldrazi Winter didn't hurt attendance. Perhaps it didn't in your little bubble utopia, but it did pretty much everywhere else. Eldrazi Winter was a disaster and probably the worst period ever in Modern's history. Your blatant disregard for its negative impact sullies whatever opinions you might have about the format and its health.
I am sure its greater then a 1:1 in favor of those that dont complain and just play the format. Attendance numbers are there. Wotc sees the numbers from local events. FNMs, PPTQs. if the numbers were bad, they would shift toward what the complainers are complaining about. Since they have held course, I would say thats evidence enough the non complainers out weigh the complainers.
Attendance alone does not correlate to happiness, especially in a format where decks can cost thousands of dollars. Events like Eldrazi Winter may be bad enough to affect attendance (which, despite your irrelevant personal bubble, it did), but for the most part, even if things aren't wonderful, people will still show up and play their decks. Since Modern players are often so heavily invested in their decks (money buying them, time playing them, skills perfecting them, etc), if the choices came down to play in a format that is far from ideal or don't play at all, many people would just choose to play, even if they are not necessarily happy. It is better to make use of my heavy investment than see it whither away in a box on a shelf in my closet.
The same dozen or so people are complaining about the same things they have been complaining about for months. I will ask again, if you are not happy with the format, why play it?
I enjoy aspects of Modern, but it could stand to benefit from several improvements across multiple avenues. It's not bad enough to want to quit, but is that really the bar Wizards should be aiming for?
Legacy is too expensive and has too little support to invest and play in regularly. Standard has been a relatively toxic environment for the last several cycles and now has the same banmania Modern does, in addition to the loss of value from rotation. Limited incurs a high cost per event with no long term value. But to be honest, I have been playing Commander significantly more than I have been playing Modern. I have several decks and enjoy the format more than anything else Magic currently offers.
Regardless, that last line is a meaningless circular argument: If you don't like a format, why are you playing it? --> You don't even play the format, why are you complaining about it?
It's simply a no-win scenario with asinine comments like that.
They at leadt are showing they are monitoring the format otherwise they would not be doing anything. We may not agree with their way of balancing through bans rather than unbans but at least they are not ignoring the format. They also gave their comment about being knowledgeable that the entire game of magic has turned to heavily on the threats being too good for the answers and are planning to shift that which will slowly influence modern so we need to wait a couple of years to recieve these new toys.
But the bad news is hearing high-profile tournaments described as "marketing". While I'm sure that's technically correct, it's still not what long-time, heavily-invested Modern players want to hear. Players want more opportunities to play high-caliber Magic, not fewer. As we've seen from SCG pulling most of its support, relying on 3rd party tournament organization is an unreliable way to go. WotC should be leading by example, not leading Modern out to pasture.
No, it's not.
Playing Modern is distinctly not like playing Legacy, as both its supporters and detractors will agree.
As for Modern being supported, it just doesn't feel that way. That's why everyone is complaining about the announcement. Releasing one Modern Masters set every two years doesn't seem to drop prices very much, and despite WotC's feelings to the contrary, those prices are inevitably tied to the format's accessibility. Plus, reducing the number of high-profile tournaments gives Modern players fewer opportunities to play.
Maro's statement shouldn't come as welcome news to the players, because they just had their tournament support cut and they are now being told that this is all part of WotC's grand plan. And using EDH as a point of comparison is just insulting; no one wants to play competitive EDH, so of course there doesn't need to be WotC tournament support for it.
Ultimately, WotC is a business and they're going to do what's right for the business. I understand that high-profile Modern tournaments aren't necessarily right for the business, but I just wish that they had been forward with that information for the past few years; I would have just invested in Legacy instead, because pretty soon both Modern and Legacy are going to be living on LGS-level tournament support.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
So what, we are just supposed to watch silently as Modern is killed? Fat chance.
Also the issue with saying that Modern will be find cause look at Legacy. Do you really think the player base will maintain interest in Modern if it is unsupported? Or would you rather just jump into Legacy or Commander? Modern is just legacy sans the RL restriction. Without support why wouldn't you just drop Modern to play Legacy?
Also, my wife loves to open packs of Magic. That means I spend around 100 bucks every couple months to make her happy. She also loves Pokemon. I could easily switch brands. I could also get her into Hearthstone if I really tried.
As far as what is best for business, I think pushing Standard is best for short term growth, with supporting Modern is best for long term health. Once people get tired of the grind of Standard they have a place to go and play their older cards in a traditional 60 card format. Remove this, and many people will just leave the game all together. Modern exists as a repository for old standard player, and players that can be enticed to return to Standard. That last point is hugely important. Eventually Wizards will run out of new players. If there is no place for people who grew tired of standard over the years, there is no player base to tempt into Standard. Repeat customers are extremely important, and Wizards is eroding their repeat customer base.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
Legacy has one big problem that modern does not and that is the reserve list. As long as wotc keeps giving us reprints the community can still grow even if prices stay high. Modern is not going to bave a shortage of staples.
I totally disagree. Probe needed to go and yes bans are still going on but we will eventually reach a point where modern can go without bans but there is a lot of history of mistakes that they had to go through.
It's hard to believe that when for the last several years, if not longer, they've constantly been doing things that are blatantly not right for the business.
Maybe the management of "what makes the most money for a business" isn't the best here, but I think CharonsObol's point stands that it is the whole point of a business. And I hear or read here about how successful Wizards has been doing for themselves in the past 10 years or so (despite really ******* it up recently in multiple formats).
What, may I ask you, has Wizards done that is blatantly wrong for business?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
What have they done that's blatantly wrong for business? Pretty much everything outside of R&D itself, and even R&D has had some major goofups recently. The company's run pretty poorly.
It'd be more accurate to say they'll do what they think is right for business, no matter how wrongheaded that often is.
I do think things are really on the downswing right now, but my hope is that Wizards will hire someone that can find their way back to popularity. Despite how much I hate it, it begins with Standard.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Yep you are right, everyone quit playing, took their decks and pouted at home because there was a single deck no one wanted to play against.
Local attendance wasnt hurt in the least. We still had the numbers for FNM and other local events during this so called Eldrazi Winter. And yes a few people played the deck, it didnt stop others from playing the format.
I wonder how much actual playing you do.
I am sure its greater then a 1:1 in favor of those that dont complain and just play the format. Attendance numbers are there. Wotc sees the numbers from local events. FNMs, PPTQs. if the numbers were bad, they would shift toward what the complainers are complaining about. Since they have held course, I would say thats evidence enough the non complainers out weigh the complainers.
The same dozen or so people are complaining about the same things they have been complaining about for months. I will ask again, if you are not happy with the format, why play it? Why force those enjoying the format to play your vision for the format? Ever occur to anyone complaining, those playing now might not like what those complaining desire?
What the vocal player base desires, and what Wotc needs to stay in business are 2 very different things.
Players look at it as a game. Wotc sees it as a income.
The fact Wotc has stayed in business for over 20 years says volumes of their understanding of what it takes to stay in business.
Magic has experienced eight consecutive years of growth. On what grounds can you (@Lord Seth) argue with those results?
I mean, I don't like some of WotC's decisions either, but they've done their market research and it has seemingly paid off. Sure, some of their decisions alienate me personally, but I'm still here playing Magic, and so are many other old-timers.
I play very little high-level Modern, mostly because there aren't many high-level tournaments in my area.
Your response is shortsighted; we can't all live in Boston, or more generally, in major urban areas. Traveling to tournaments requires that you have a car or the discretionary income to fly, not to mention a complete weekend worth of free time to spare.
I don't want to get into the specific details about where I live, but if you lived in Montana or had to take care of a family, you'd feel differently about your response. Magic is a hobby. Fewer tournaments literally means less accessibility for some of us. We may have an equal opportunity to play, but we definitely don't have equal access.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
No More Standard (I keep buying complete set x4 for each new set since I play this game), less expense on Modern(look at my signature). As a result, I can save more money for my family.
You really piss me off, Wizards.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
And that growth is because of one thing primarily: Duels of the Planeswalkers. A game that Wizards of the Coast didn't even make (as shown by the fact people liked it). But perhaps someone wants to say it was smart of them to give the license to someone so they should get credit. Okay... but that was 8 years ago.
Magic's growth has mostly come from them coasting on the fumes of a smart decision they made 8 years ago and the fact that due to being at the top of the heap, Magic has managed to keep itself self-perpetuating despite their many missteps, as it's what people gravitate to simply because it's easiest to find people to play with. But we've definitely started seeing their poor decisions starting to bite them back; you mention it posting growth, but that growth has slowed down compared to where it used to be. You can't just coast on those fumes forever.
Like I said, their R&D department is perhaps the one thing in the company that isn't incompetent (although it does still have issues). That manages to keep things afloat. But their decisions in practically everything else are pretty poor and have prevented the game's growth from being as successful as it could have been.
Any data to back these claims up?
During the just the last ten years, Wizards has outlasted several fairly popular card games, and remains unchallenged in the paper market in the United States. YGO and Pokemon are second and third by quite a fair margin. Yu-Gi-Oh has better worldwide sales, but the game is extremely popular in China and Japan, where Magic is only kind of popular.
And Hearthstone is only ahead in online sales because it is literally the only way to play that game. A lot of players at locals don't play on MTGO because they don't want to spend real money on Magic cards they will never touch.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Like you said, Magic is a hobby. Working full-time, raising a family, spending money on things other than travel, etc. are all decisions you have made. There's nothing wrong with that, but at the end of the day, everyone decides how much time/money they want to dedicate to their hobbies, and those amounts obviously vary depending on external factors like location. It's not Wizards's fault you don't live in Boston. And it's not reasonable for customers (you) to expect companies (Wizards) to always cater to their individual needs (high-level events in rural areas??).
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I shouldn't have to tell you that you sound like an indignant twenty-something, but you should still quit while you're behind.
My comments aren't about some thinly-veiled entitlement to play a game I enjoy. My comments are about WotC needing to respect their customers enough to not mislead them. Being competitive in Magic takes a lot of things, including time and money. Those are precious commodities for most of us, yourself hopefully included. When a player invests his or her time and money into the game, you can't just dismiss that person by suggesting that their inability to compensate for program-level changes is actually just their own fault. We can't just pick up and leave our homes, jobs, and responsibilities to overcome years' worth of life choices resulting in Magic being a low-priority. For most people, Magic is a hobby, not a lifestyle.
If I knew that WotC were going to make it harder to play Modern, I wouldn't have invested in Modern. Simple as that. And it's not unreasonable to say. I like Magic, and I didn't expect WotC to make it harder for me to play a format that they've spent years endorsing.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
(just to be clear, legacy can't be that "bigger" format in Magic, not since the reserved list... So modern is Wizards' only option here as it has no such restriction. Legacy was doomed to die from the start, whereas modern can be reprinted as much as they see fit).
In these other successful card games (hearthstone, pokemon etc) the older, "bigger" format is supported with normal-priced boosters and regular releases. The "standard" format is seen as a gateway to the larger game, and also a focus for competitive events. In Magic, the older "bigger" format is given infrequent releases with short print-runs and hugely over-costed booster prices. This isn't proper support.
Now imagine a world where the following happens:
- 1 modern masters set every year
- 3 standard set-releases every year
- A 1:3 ratio of modern:standard events in the year
- All booster products the same price
- All sets given a full print-run
In this scenario, modern is given more importance as the "core" of magic, some competitive support, and standard is the main focus for competitive events as well as pushing the new product to consumers. Modern staple prices would drop by a reasonable amount, but remain stable due to increased interest from competitive-level coverage and a new set evert year. Increased interest would see secondary markets being more active, with people trading into and out of decks. Generally the whole scenario would be better.
What we have currently is a classic scenario of board-meeting decisions being made. Someone has expressed nervousness about reprinting valuable cards, so they've adopted a very expensive, reduced print-run way to reprint cards. The act of doing this has affected people's ability to engage and buy-into the format in the long term. Reducing tournament support has lessened consumer interest, so they've completely shot themselves in the foot from a business perspective. Now, the guy in the suit who just looks at numbers thinks modern looks like a poor investment, but taking the wider perspective, they've just adopted the wrong model. Taking a leaf out of other games' successes is the way to go, and modern should be a solid 1/3rd of their constructed-format income, as it represents the "bigger" format that every other similar game has, and is necessary to the long term success of magic as a game.
The reserve list may have accelerated the problem, but Modern has the same issues otherwise. The message they have been sending out for months now is that the format is strictly a collectors only format. It's not for people interested in playing competitive magic: For that they want people to play standard where they can keep pushing cards. This means that eventually the only way newer players will be able to play modern is by proxy just the same as legacy, and in fact many players already do play proxy modern because the core cards like Noble Hierarch and Zendikar fetches are very expensive, and with the spikey nature of the secondary market it makes it hard to plan financially to buy into sideboard cards when a new deck pops up like Puresteel paladin Cheerios. The market couldn't even adjust to how fast that Chalice of the void spiked due to market manipulation. I think the biggest benefit the format can have is letting go of proxy hate in the modern community and letting others play modern at FNM. It's been a great help to Legacy tournaments locally and it would definitely get more people in on modern nights at the game store.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I maybe wrong about this but wild (hearhstones eternal format) seems like it is hugely irrevelant more so than even modern has ever been and now is. Same with ygo where traditional is not even a thing. When I played ygo once advanced become the tournament format traditional basically became vintage where it is not supported at all and is only for collectors.
They can solve the price issue with a more frequent reprint cycle, or use an unlimited print run for MMA serie.
But this will attract more people playing Modern and keep hurting their Standard market. Thus, they will NOT do this at the moment.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
There seems to be a very serious disconnect in part of the player base in how Modern or any other non Standard constructed format can not be king of Wotc. Wotc has to have Standard as its king because the king pushes 'NEW' product. See Wotc is in a business of printing and selling boxes and packs of trading cards that can be played in this little game they have. Wotc has seen and knows Modern could easily be the number one format for the company, but they also know that Modern doesnt sell near the number of packs Standard does. Ill say it again, what Wotc needs from the game is very different from what the player base wants from the game. The guys complaining and then say they play the same deck week in and week out are not making Wotc any money. They are aiming at the people with money to switch decks regularly or are cracking packs or buying boxes/cases. Why worry about coins when you can collect paper money? If Wotc ever gets to the point they have to worry about the coins, the game is in huge trouble.
As for Maros 'words', I really dont understand a group of people complaining about a hand full of events in any given year. Push your local LGS to play Modern and run events weekly, FNMs, weekend event. Build a local player base for the format. Then you can play when you wish. A group of players complaining over a small number of high level events that the majority probably wont travel to or play in seems counter productive. Work at the local level, the LGS will work on having larger events if its worth it for them.
Bocephus,the idea above actually sounds quite reasonable.Standard would still get a lot more support, but Wizards would actually grow the profits because I don't buy Standard, I have actually sworn off sealed product, but I would reconsider for regular Modern support. the biggest reason a lot of people myself included don't switch Modern decks frequently is because it is HUGELY expensive, prohibitively so for anyone who is on any real budget. if once a year Modern got a set full of staples with a good run and reasonable msrp, i would draft it and build all the Modern decks. there are enough high value cards that by the time Wizards got through everything, the first things printed would be climbing back up. as far as needing new products to sell better, I think it would makemore sense for Wizards to want reprints to sell better and be able to slash R&D, not NEED as many new cards. or even just be more aggressive about reprints and slotting in Modern cards, that would be enough if they just took it seriously, instead of.....wow, I just got stopped in my tracks, have we not had a really relevant Modern staple reprinted in Standard since THEROS??? that can'tbe correct?
You are fooling yourself that Eldrazi Winter didn't hurt attendance. Perhaps it didn't in your little bubble utopia, but it did pretty much everywhere else. Eldrazi Winter was a disaster and probably the worst period ever in Modern's history. Your blatant disregard for its negative impact sullies whatever opinions you might have about the format and its health.
Attendance alone does not correlate to happiness, especially in a format where decks can cost thousands of dollars. Events like Eldrazi Winter may be bad enough to affect attendance (which, despite your irrelevant personal bubble, it did), but for the most part, even if things aren't wonderful, people will still show up and play their decks. Since Modern players are often so heavily invested in their decks (money buying them, time playing them, skills perfecting them, etc), if the choices came down to play in a format that is far from ideal or don't play at all, many people would just choose to play, even if they are not necessarily happy. It is better to make use of my heavy investment than see it whither away in a box on a shelf in my closet.
I enjoy aspects of Modern, but it could stand to benefit from several improvements across multiple avenues. It's not bad enough to want to quit, but is that really the bar Wizards should be aiming for?
Legacy is too expensive and has too little support to invest and play in regularly. Standard has been a relatively toxic environment for the last several cycles and now has the same banmania Modern does, in addition to the loss of value from rotation. Limited incurs a high cost per event with no long term value. But to be honest, I have been playing Commander significantly more than I have been playing Modern. I have several decks and enjoy the format more than anything else Magic currently offers.
Regardless, that last line is a meaningless circular argument: If you don't like a format, why are you playing it? --> You don't even play the format, why are you complaining about it?
It's simply a no-win scenario with asinine comments like that.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate