WotC is probably going to print better answers within the next couple of years after the current Standard fiasco. In the meantime, I think the latest bannings have made Modern a healthier format. Chalice of the Void is doing a decent job policing the more egregious decks.
I'm just defending them because they are a part of Magic, there were a part of Magic at least 20 years ago when I started, and yes, they are a feature of Modern, because the card pool itself makes it so there's an endless number of possible decks trying to kill you in T3 if possible.
I empathize with this. I miss powerful counterspells, land destruction, and prison decks. Those are features to me, despite the rest of the community (and WotC's market research) calling them bugs.
Are you going to ban Burn? Affinity? Bushwacker Zoo, Infect, Grishoalbrand, Cheeri0s, Storm, random human decks, Goblins, you name it. Are you going to ban every single deck that has an strategy which is, at its core, some variation of "kill your opponent ASAP"?
Am I going to ban them? No. I'm going to print cards for other strategies so that there aren't just aggro and combo decks in the format.
But WotC doesn't agree. Powerful control cards actually serve an important purpose for format health, but WotC would rather use the banhammer to regulate the format than their printing press.
No, because it wouldn't make any sense. Those are some of the most classic archetypes in the game of Magic. What can be done, and is done, is ban something when one of those decks is just too good, to the point of warping the format, dominating it, or making a large amount of decks and strategies obsolete. But this is not a specific feature of fast decks. It's exactly the same with other archetypes, look at Twin, look at Pod, etc.
It doesn't make sense to me, but it must make sense to WotC. I don't agree with their policies, but I understand them.
Yes, super fast decks are a feature of Modern, be it creature aggro, aggro-combo, or combo. And they are here to stay. And if you don't like them, well, tough luck! I don't like draw&go, I don't like ramp, I don't like resource denial decks, but I cope with them because they are a part of this game and format.
My problem isn't the existence of uninteractive decks. Every good format has a few of them. My problem is that the best things you can be doing in Modern are uninteractive.
Oh I have my preferences, I do. Do you know what I would ban if it was up to me, just to purge whatever I don't like about the format? I would ban Chalice of the Void and Eldrazi Temple. Why? Because I hate the decks that use those cards. But this is me, I'm not under the illusion that my personal preferences correlate to a rise in vaporous concepts like "fun" and "format health".
You wouldn't hear any complaints from me, although I have a personal affinity for Chalice.
I actually thought that Eldrazi Temple should have gotten the banhammer instead of Eye of Ugin. I'm less bothered by multiple T2 Eldrazi Mimics than by a single T2 TKS.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
On helping control, I have my opinion 100% formed. It/we/Modern need Counterspell. With the cards we have in this format it is just a travesty that Counterspell is not in it. And I think it would do wonders.
I can get on board with this. I don't play any decks that could take advantage of it, but I agree that Counterspell would help the format.
Now, about the relative balance of strategies, I agree that it's not good that the best thing you can be doing is a specific one and the rest are almost straight wrong. But I believe this on principle, not because of thinking uninteractive decks are somehow less deserving than others.
As the label suggests, uninteractive decks are uninteractive. I don't think that those decks should cease to exist, but I also don't think that they typically add new dimensions to a format.
At the moment, Modern is filled with linear, uninteractive decks because those strategies are the most efficient ones to win a game of Magic. That's a problem. It's not a problem because I dislike uninteractive decks; it's a problem because all of the pilots get to play past each other. It doesn't make for interesting gameplay, nor does it make for skill-intensive gameplay. Modern can be a skill intensive format, but Modern players shouldn't have to go out of their way to pilot decks that interact with their opponents.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Lol they just banned Gitaxian Probe and people keep asking to slow down uninteractive decks. Seems some people just don't like Modern and want a different format altogether.
Slowing down uninteractive decks = killing them
Speed is what they have going for them. Do you know what would happen if you toned down Burn's damage output? Or if you toned down Tron's mana producing abilities?
Fast, uninteractive decks are a part of the format and have been from the beginning. They are a feature of the format, that attract a very large number of players to it. You know when fast uninteractive decks occupy a large meta share, behind those decks, there are people playing them. And not all players are spikes, meaning it's quite likely that a majority of them actually like playing those decks.
You call it a feature, I call it a bug.
Uninteractive decks have been breaking the format since the days of Blazing Shoal Infect. WotC has always explicitly wanted Modern to be slower than Legacy, but it's not slower now and it never has been. Uninteractive games are bad for the speed of a format, because without interaction, every game becomes a race and nothing matters except the die roll. It's hard to have sympathy for the combo players whose decks intentionally break the stated goals of the format; they play those decks precisely because their decks do things that are unreasonable.
What WotC should have done, is print stronger answers, while leaving fast, uninteractive decks alone. Instead what they have done, is ban pieces of uninteractive decks until those decks are slow and clunky. I don't like it either. But WotC's market research is pushing them away from countermagic and control elements, and we either have to play by their rules or migrate to Legacy.
I am with you, WotC should give us more stronger answers - something's like good land hates...to slow down every mana creations, it's good to slow the format
I honestly don't see a point in having Counterspell. It doesn't solve the problem I have with the dice roll being too big of a factor determining games.
The format is unfriendly to control for a number of reasons, and yes I'm going to bring up Twin. Why?
Because it was the best 'i win' if they didn't have an answer.
There are so few cards that do that for Uxx, it's not even funny. I had a guy on MTGO ask me what my win con was, as he wanted to bail after I had been answering everything he did for 9 turns. My answer, either Bolt/Snap beats/burn, Tasigur, or Torrential Gearhulk.
Those are 4 very fair answers, that will in most cases take either a long time to get there, or even close out.
Modern often demands a fast close out, and Uxx no longer has one.
That's the same complaint I had about UW Control years ago. How did they win? Collonade beats, after stabilizing with a fat Sphinx Rev.
I don't think answers, are our problem in Uxx anymore, how do we close it out and win, after we have held on and made it a game, is the issue as I see it.
I've been saying this for a while. Uxx has plenty of tools to buy time, but no good way to actually WIN. Uxx decks really need to do something unfair to win (like Twin) or have a massive upgrade in cheap threats to become more like Jund. The way they are now, the answers only stall and the threats are too slow/unreliable.
Grixis Control // Delver are the two blue snap decks I see on that list, and they are not short of ways to close the game; at least, they're aren't significantly worse than Tarmogoof.
The threats are either fragile (x/1s and x/2s) or require multiple setup steps (fetch + Scour for Delve). It would be nice to have a blue goyf-like creature. A value 2 drop in blue that doesn't require additional cards for setup.
This has been true of blue decks in eternal formats. Control decks in vintage/legacy are and have been combocontrol or in miracles case prisoncombo control.
just for the record, I don't care about slowing down decks, I care about slowing the FORMAT. and when I mentioned Tron and Burn, those are my 2 primary decks, but I still want Therapy printed. I don't advocate using bans to slow decks except in the most extreme cases, when they are just too crazy, like Shoal Infect. if the cards are around for it to be dealt with, i will be in favor of letting players deal with it. I say print Therapy, watch Dredge, print some better hate. I want a cyclical meta, one where the hyperfast decks can exist and do well, but they are a meta choice. I want Burn to struggle with legitimate discard and lifegain decks, I want control to be something that can be tuned to almost any meta. I don't want to play Legacy because (aside from price), I really love Tron, which is not nearly good enough for that format, i want to play decks that can't exist there, but I do envy them the idea that any kind of deck you want to play can be viable. I have no objection to the infect turn 2 godhand, that's fine, or 4xBolt backed by Guide in Burn, I like for them to threaten any meta not ready, but it shouldn't be 'fast decks are good because options to stop them are limited. I basically want a format where you can randomly pick any deck you have access to and rarely play the mirror. Therapy wouldn't create a new monster or stop a deck from existing as long as Dredge was watched, it would just be another moving part
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On helping control, I have my opinion 100% formed. It/we/Modern need Counterspell. With the cards we have in this format it is just a travesty that Counterspell is not in it. And I think it would do wonders.
I can get on board with this. I don't play any decks that could take advantage of it, but I agree that Counterspell would help the format.
Now, about the relative balance of strategies, I agree that it's not good that the best thing you can be doing is a specific one and the rest are almost straight wrong. But I believe this on principle, not because of thinking uninteractive decks are somehow less deserving than others.
As the label suggests, uninteractive decks are uninteractive. I don't think that those decks should cease to exist, but I also don't think that they typically add new dimensions to a format.
At the moment, Modern is filled with linear, uninteractive decks because those strategies are the most efficient ones to win a game of Magic. That's a problem. It's not a problem because I dislike uninteractive decks; it's a problem because all of the pilots get to play past each other. It doesn't make for interesting gameplay, nor does it make for skill-intensive gameplay. Modern can be a skill intensive format, but Modern players shouldn't have to go out of their way to pilot decks that interact with their opponents.
I think you're missing another part to this problem though. A lot of those uninteractive decks are cheap, or at least they start out that way. Dredge, eldrazi aggro, dsz all started out very cheap and easy to get your hands on. If someone wants to play jund they literally can't without spending an arm and a leg on goyf/lili. That's why a lot of people flock to fast uninteractive decks imo (to win on the cheap).
What WotC should have done, is print stronger answers, while leaving fast, uninteractive decks alone. Instead what they have done, is ban pieces of uninteractive decks until those decks are slow and clunky. I don't like it either. But WotC's market research is pushing them away from countermagic and control elements, and we either have to play by their rules or migrate to Legacy.
Printing answers to problems rarely fixes the problem. In Magic's past in fact, it's made it worse (Mental Misstep took Legacy in the wrong direction that was meant to answer the dominance of Brainstorm). Additionally, there are somethings that no matter what the answer, the initial problem is so strong that players will just plow through the hate undeterred. But to be honest (I'm thinking of Tron specifically), I think you and I just have different definitions of what constitutes "slow and clunky."
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
I'm not sure if somebody has already suggested this, but wouldn't it be easier for everybody if WoTC used Modern Masters not only for a reprint outlet, but also as a way to introduce "new"(cards already in existence that pre-date modern) cards into the format? Since the last 8 pages of this thread involve reasons made for/against Counterspell in Modern, I'll use that as an example. Instead of printing $15 MM boosters that serve as glorified Goyf lottery tix, WoTC could also use the product to add pre-Modern cards into the card pool (e.g. Counterspell). This would eliminate the need to print certain overpowered cards in standard sets in order for them to trickle down into modern, and it would allow for WoTC to "police" the format without the need of (as many) bans/unbans. Essentially, tweak the format to be 8th Edition & beyond plus anything that's been printed in a Modern Masters set.
Even if it were only one or two cards per Modern Masters set that were integrated into the format this way, it would give modern much needed answer cards without jeopardizing the standard metagame. Like I said, this may have already been discussed before, but it seems like a no-brainer to give us answers instead of banning threats. Thoughts?
What WotC should have done, is print stronger answers, while leaving fast, uninteractive decks alone. Instead what they have done, is ban pieces of uninteractive decks until those decks are slow and clunky. I don't like it either. But WotC's market research is pushing them away from countermagic and control elements, and we either have to play by their rules or migrate to Legacy.
Printing answers to problems rarely fixes the problem. In Magic's past in fact, it's made it worse (Mental Misstep took Legacy in the wrong direction that was meant to answer the dominance of Brainstorm). Additionally, there are somethings that no matter what the answer, the initial problem is so strong that players will just plow through the hate undeterred. But to be honest (I'm thinking of Tron specifically), I think you and I just have different definitions of what constitutes "slow and clunky."
I'd like to address your view (and others') about tron.
So.. What's the beef? Tron has been a reliable pendulum in modern, swinging between tier 2 and tier 1 since the format began. It rises, it falls, like clockwork. It's also been hit with a ban in the form of Eye of Ugin, meaning the deck no longer has the long game locked up against control etc, because the deck can't play emrakul.
So why has everyone suddenly gone mad about tron? Nothing's particularly changed; the deck will recede again, just as it has done before. Every time the metagame gets good for jund or abzan, guess what? Tron rides that wave for a while until *poof* the bubble bursts and tron is tier 2 and struggling again for a few months. And tron isn't even that good against jund anymore, as shown by recent data. It's more like a 45/55 matchup than the old 30/70 that people like to throw around to suit their point of view.
So I say again, what's the beef against tron? It's like the most reliable yo-yo between tier 1 and 2, it isn't warping the metagame, isn't as consistent, and in a couple of months, maybe a little more, it'll recede again into tier 2. It's one of the most healthy decks in the format to have around because it's so easy to deal with from a metagame perspective. Infect, burn, affinity, living end, ur delver, scapeshift, all these strategies crush tron, and there's more that I'm not listing.
If you're only hating on tron because everyone else seems to be; I'd have a think about it before posting anything else.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I'm not sure if somebody has already suggested this, but wouldn't it be easier for everybody if WoTC used Modern Masters not only for a reprint outlet, but also as a way to introduce "new" cards into the format? Since the last 8 pages of this thread involve reasons made for/against Counterspell in Modern, I'll use that as an example. Instead of printing $15 MM boosters that serve as glorified Goyf lottery tix, WoTC could also use the product to add pre-Modern cards into the card pool (e.g. Counterspell). This would eliminate the need to print certain overpowered cards in standard sets in order for them to trickle down into modern, and it would allow for WoTC to "police" the format without the need of (as many) bans/unbans. Essentially, tweak the format to be 8th Edition & beyond plus anything that's been printed in a Modern Masters set.
Even if it were only one or two cards per Modern Masters set that were integrated into the format this way, it would give modern much needed answer cards without jeopardizing the standard metagame. Like I said, this may have already been discussed before, but it seems like a no-brainer to give us answers instead of banning threats. Thoughts?
This idea has been brought up multiple times but in reality would be horrible unless it was a heavily printed card before moderns start point. Just imagine in push (granted this is talking new not just a reprint) was printed that way. Instead of a $5 uncommon it'd be like $20. MM product is already too pricey and having it as a way to introduce cards to the format is bad unless they are previously heavily printed (like counterspell) or all the new cards are commons. Another example would be commander product, if it weren't for legacy playables almost everything would be worth pennies. There are just too few cards at a low rarity that would effect modern. Supply is so limited on legacy stuff that is semi playable (unless reprinted in conspiracy/commander (unlimited print runs)) that the prices would be outrageous if they went above common imo.
EDIT: Not to mention that then wotc would have to actually test these cards and we've all seen how well they do at that.
I'm not sure if somebody has already suggested this, but wouldn't it be easier for everybody if WoTC used Modern Masters not only for a reprint outlet, but also as a way to introduce "new" cards into the format? Since the last 8 pages of this thread involve reasons made for/against Counterspell in Modern, I'll use that as an example. Instead of printing $15 MM boosters that serve as glorified Goyf lottery tix, WoTC could also use the product to add pre-Modern cards into the card pool (e.g. Counterspell). This would eliminate the need to print certain overpowered cards in standard sets in order for them to trickle down into modern, and it would allow for WoTC to "police" the format without the need of (as many) bans/unbans. Essentially, tweak the format to be 8th Edition & beyond plus anything that's been printed in a Modern Masters set.
Even if it were only one or two cards per Modern Masters set that were integrated into the format this way, it would give modern much needed answer cards without jeopardizing the standard metagame. Like I said, this may have already been discussed before, but it seems like a no-brainer to give us answers instead of banning threats. Thoughts?
This idea in reality would be horrible unless it was a heavily printed card before moderns start point. Just imagine in push was printed that way. Instead of a $5 uncommon it'd be like $20. MM product is already too pricey and having it as a way to introduce cards to the format is bad unless they are previously heavily printed (like counterspell) or all the new cards are commons. Another example would be commander product, if it weren't for legacy playables almost everything would be worth pennies. There are just too few cards at a low rarity that would effect modern.
Sorry, I should have been more clear in my original post; I'm not suggesting that brand new cards be introduced through MM. Only cards that already exist. But yes, exactly something like counterspell; cards that are legacy legal but pre-date modern.
Did I just read Cabal Therapy should be printed into modern? Does this person want GBx decks to get banned?
The format is DEFINITELY slower with the ban of probe, I'm really shocked how effective the banning was. Infect looks really dead to me now though, I think for the first time in a long time it's going to drop into tier 3. It's nearly dead on mtgo, it's down in paper shares, and people who said they played it in regionals were out so quick it wasn't even funny.
The new death shadow aggro is powerful and fast without feelings oppressively so, it's fast and grindy. I don't own that deck, but for like 100 dollars I could buy the pieces I don't own. I think I'm only like 20ish away on mtgo.
Rallier is the real ******* deal in company decks, I think Rallier may actually be the allstar from the new set, not Fatal Push (oddly enough).
Blue still sucks. Wasn't there 1 Jeskai deck that hit like 2nd place in the regionals though?
I didn't mean to say ponder earlier yesterday, I meant preordain.
Also, Sheridan, even though MTGO's shares say Junk is higher than Jund's, it's notably been shrinking and underperformed in the regionals, everyone was playing Jund and most people agree Jund is better, I'm not sure Abzan is being very pushed right now, I don't think SFM is an unreasonable ban. You said it yourself, white is absolute crap in modern, and blue's not far behind. SFM is literally the definition of blue and white packaged into one card.
I no longer feel the talk of unbanning Splinger Twin is unreasonable anymore, and I can't defend that ban now, WOTC's goal of empowering blue has been an absolute failure
Either take the chance and unban a very huge blue card or just bring Twin again.
Now, if blue gains preordain, maybe Jace, doesn't it seem dangerous to unban Twin then? Just a question for the more seasoned blue players
Also, Sheridan, even though MTGO's shares say Junk is higher than Jund's, it's notably been shrinking and underperformed in the regionals, everyone was playing Jund and most people agree Jund is better, I'm not sure Abzan is being very pushed right now, I don't think SFM is an unreasonable ban. You said it yourself, white is absolute crap in modern, and blue's not far behind. SFM is literally the definition of blue and white packaged into one card.
This isn't accurate at all. SFM slots into any Wxx deck that can also host an equipment package, not any white/blue deck. For example, DnT and Maverick are both more than happy to run SFM without running blue, whereas UWr Miracles doesn't have any need for her. I'm guessing you're referring to Caw-blade when you say she's white and blue, but in legacy that (Stoneblade) is just one of three prominent decks that actually run her. I'm thoroughly of the opinion that she shouldn't be unbanned in modern, even with Jitte still on the banlist. Or if you do unban her, then Batterskull needs the axe.
I no longer feel the talk of unbanning Splinger Twin is unreasonable anymore, and I can't defend that ban now, WOTC's goal of empowering blue has been an absolute failure
Either take the chance and unban a very huge blue card or just bring Twin again.
Now, if blue gains preordain, maybe Jace, doesn't it seem dangerous to unban Twin then? Just a question for the more seasoned blue players
The issue with Splinter Twin wasn't that it made blue too powerful, but rather that it was deemed too oppressive on the format. Which was, in a way, correct, since we saw a proliferation of many different archetypes after Twin fell (albeit most of them being linear decks). Twin gave URx decks an oops-I-win switch, but it was also the only viable way to run blue. Preordain and counterspell would help blue much more (and also keep it more diverse so that you don't always have to run URx).
Also, Sheridan, even though MTGO's shares say Junk is higher than Jund's, it's notably been shrinking and underperformed in the regionals, everyone was playing Jund and most people agree Jund is better, I'm not sure Abzan is being very pushed right now, I don't think SFM is an unreasonable ban. You said it yourself, white is absolute crap in modern, and blue's not far behind. SFM is literally the definition of blue and white packaged into one card.
This isn't accurate at all. SFM slots into any Wxx deck that can also host an equipment package, not any white/blue deck. For example, DnT and Maverick are both more than happy to run SFM without running blue, whereas UWr Miracles doesn't have any need for her. I'm guessing you're referring to Caw-blade when you say she's white and blue, but in legacy that (Stoneblade) is just one of three prominent decks that actually run her. I'm thoroughly of the opinion that she shouldn't be unbanned in modern, even with Jitte still on the banlist. Or if you do unban her, then Batterskull needs the axe.
I no longer feel the talk of unbanning Splinger Twin is unreasonable anymore, and I can't defend that ban now, WOTC's goal of empowering blue has been an absolute failure
Either take the chance and unban a very huge blue card or just bring Twin again.
Now, if blue gains preordain, maybe Jace, doesn't it seem dangerous to unban Twin then? Just a question for the more seasoned blue players
The issue with Splinter Twin wasn't that it made blue too powerful, but rather that it was deemed too oppressive on the format. Which was, in a way, correct, since we saw a proliferation of many different archetypes after Twin fell (albeit most of them being linear decks). Twin gave URx decks an oops-I-win switch, but it was also the only viable way to run blue. Preordain and counterspell would help blue much more (and also keep it more diverse so that you don't always have to run URx).
Arguably the only reason why Twin got banned was the PT to "shake things up".
Twin would be a safe unban, and I strongly believe it will happen at some point.
Arguably the only reason why Twin got banned was the PT to "shake things up".
Twin would be a safe unban, and I strongly believe it will happen at some point.
To their credit, they gave a specific reason why they banned Twin
We also look for decks that hold a large enough percentage of the competitive field to reduce the diversity of the format.
Antonio Del Moral León won Pro Tour Fate Reforged playing Splinter Twin, and Jelger Wiegersma finished third; Splinter Twin has won two of the four Modern Pro Tours. Splinter Twin reached the Top 8 of the last six Modern Grand Prix. The last Modern Grand Prix in Pittsburgh had three Splinter Twin decks in the Top 8, including Alex Bianchi's winning deck.
Decks that are this strong can hurt diversity by pushing the decks that it defeats out of competition. They can also reduce diversity by supplanting similar decks. For instance, Shaun McLaren won Pro Tour Born of the Gods playing this Jeskai control deck. Alex Bianchi won our most recent Modern Grand Prix playing a similar deck but adding the Splinter Twin combination. Similarly, Temur Tempo used to see play at high-level events but has been supplanted by Temur Twin.
We considered what one would do with the cards from a Splinter Twin deck with Splinter Twin banned. In the case of some Jeskai or Temur, there are very similar decks to build. In other cases, there is Kiki-Jiki as a replacement.
In the interest of competitive diversity, Splinter Twin is banned from Modern.
Of course, Wizards has certainly proven they're capable of getting things way wrong, but it's pretty much what I said, and think about it: if Twin is unbanned, could any blue deck conceivably run anything but URx? There'd be no Esper or Sultai control. Twin addresses the symptom but not the cause.
On helping control, I have my opinion 100% formed. It/we/Modern need Counterspell. With the cards we have in this format it is just a travesty that Counterspell is not in it. And I think it would do wonders.
I can get on board with this. I don't play any decks that could take advantage of it, but I agree that Counterspell would help the format.
Now, about the relative balance of strategies, I agree that it's not good that the best thing you can be doing is a specific one and the rest are almost straight wrong. But I believe this on principle, not because of thinking uninteractive decks are somehow less deserving than others.
As the label suggests, uninteractive decks are uninteractive. I don't think that those decks should cease to exist, but I also don't think that they typically add new dimensions to a format.
At the moment, Modern is filled with linear, uninteractive decks because those strategies are the most efficient ones to win a game of Magic. That's a problem. It's not a problem because I dislike uninteractive decks; it's a problem because all of the pilots get to play past each other. It doesn't make for interesting gameplay, nor does it make for skill-intensive gameplay. Modern can be a skill intensive format, but Modern players shouldn't have to go out of their way to pilot decks that interact with their opponents.
I think you're missing another part to this problem though. A lot of those uninteractive decks are cheap, or at least they start out that way. Dredge, eldrazi aggro, dsz all started out very cheap and easy to get your hands on. If someone wants to play jund they literally can't without spending an arm and a leg on goyf/lili. That's why a lot of people flock to fast uninteractive decks imo (to win on the cheap).
And by extension, that is caused by wotc literally back seat driving the constructed format instead of improving the affordability of the more expensive archetypes. However, I've just about given up on the company letting go of the collectors market since they allowed the financial bubble to grow too big. If they try to fix the format they'd have to break the bubble around the big name cards and unfortunately wotc seems to have a rather short sighted outlook in this regard.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Even thinking that twin is good for the format (i really dont like that ban), maybe wizards wont unban it again (or at least not now) because of the obvious reaction by the community, i mean... wizards rebanned troll. If they unban twin, the confidence about wizards knowing what to do with the format could completely fall (even more than now)
Unbanning Troll didn't break Dredge. Unbanning Troll and printing Cathartic Reunion and Prized Amalgam broke Dredge.
I'm fine with them printing new cards that break established decks - re-banning Troll shouldn't change anyone's confidence levels.
i know that. Troll itself didnt break dredge, but i think that they knew what kind of cards would enter the modern pool. At the same time, im not sure if troll was the correct ban (amalgam maybe was the best target) The thing is that i dont really like how they try to fix modern
Lets not rewrite history here about twin. Twin was banned and then Eldrazi winter happened. This was the time when the dust was supposed to settle, leading into help for Uxx based decks with Sword of the Meek and Ancestral Vision. Characterizing that as banning twin without "further supporting" Uxx control decks is simply wrong. Sure, the support fell short, but they did try.
So now we are in the situation where the support offered was insufficient - not that it didn't happen. So more support is needed, not regressing back to the twin era of 'no other Uxx control decks possible". As soon as twin comes back, other Uxx reactive decks won't really make sense - which was the problem in the first place. Grixis control, UW control and Esper control decks have all been gaining ground and would be effectively eliminated if twin came back. The strategy should instead be, to no one's surprise, help all Uxx control decks, not just URx.
As I said before, Jace, the Mind Sculptor makes a lot more sense if the goal is to help all Uxx control/midrange decks instead of just URx.
Am I going to ban them? No. I'm going to print cards for other strategies so that there aren't just aggro and combo decks in the format.
But WotC doesn't agree. Powerful control cards actually serve an important purpose for format health, but WotC would rather use the banhammer to regulate the format than their printing press.
It doesn't make sense to me, but it must make sense to WotC. I don't agree with their policies, but I understand them.
My problem isn't the existence of uninteractive decks. Every good format has a few of them. My problem is that the best things you can be doing in Modern are uninteractive.
You wouldn't hear any complaints from me, although I have a personal affinity for Chalice.
I actually thought that Eldrazi Temple should have gotten the banhammer instead of Eye of Ugin. I'm less bothered by multiple T2 Eldrazi Mimics than by a single T2 TKS.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
As the label suggests, uninteractive decks are uninteractive. I don't think that those decks should cease to exist, but I also don't think that they typically add new dimensions to a format.
At the moment, Modern is filled with linear, uninteractive decks because those strategies are the most efficient ones to win a game of Magic. That's a problem. It's not a problem because I dislike uninteractive decks; it's a problem because all of the pilots get to play past each other. It doesn't make for interesting gameplay, nor does it make for skill-intensive gameplay. Modern can be a skill intensive format, but Modern players shouldn't have to go out of their way to pilot decks that interact with their opponents.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
This has been true of blue decks in eternal formats. Control decks in vintage/legacy are and have been combocontrol or in miracles case prisoncombo control.
I think you're missing another part to this problem though. A lot of those uninteractive decks are cheap, or at least they start out that way. Dredge, eldrazi aggro, dsz all started out very cheap and easy to get your hands on. If someone wants to play jund they literally can't without spending an arm and a leg on goyf/lili. That's why a lot of people flock to fast uninteractive decks imo (to win on the cheap).
Printing answers to problems rarely fixes the problem. In Magic's past in fact, it's made it worse (Mental Misstep took Legacy in the wrong direction that was meant to answer the dominance of Brainstorm). Additionally, there are somethings that no matter what the answer, the initial problem is so strong that players will just plow through the hate undeterred. But to be honest (I'm thinking of Tron specifically), I think you and I just have different definitions of what constitutes "slow and clunky."
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Even if it were only one or two cards per Modern Masters set that were integrated into the format this way, it would give modern much needed answer cards without jeopardizing the standard metagame. Like I said, this may have already been discussed before, but it seems like a no-brainer to give us answers instead of banning threats. Thoughts?
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
I'd like to address your view (and others') about tron.
So.. What's the beef? Tron has been a reliable pendulum in modern, swinging between tier 2 and tier 1 since the format began. It rises, it falls, like clockwork. It's also been hit with a ban in the form of Eye of Ugin, meaning the deck no longer has the long game locked up against control etc, because the deck can't play emrakul.
So why has everyone suddenly gone mad about tron? Nothing's particularly changed; the deck will recede again, just as it has done before. Every time the metagame gets good for jund or abzan, guess what? Tron rides that wave for a while until *poof* the bubble bursts and tron is tier 2 and struggling again for a few months. And tron isn't even that good against jund anymore, as shown by recent data. It's more like a 45/55 matchup than the old 30/70 that people like to throw around to suit their point of view.
So I say again, what's the beef against tron? It's like the most reliable yo-yo between tier 1 and 2, it isn't warping the metagame, isn't as consistent, and in a couple of months, maybe a little more, it'll recede again into tier 2. It's one of the most healthy decks in the format to have around because it's so easy to deal with from a metagame perspective. Infect, burn, affinity, living end, ur delver, scapeshift, all these strategies crush tron, and there's more that I'm not listing.
If you're only hating on tron because everyone else seems to be; I'd have a think about it before posting anything else.
This idea has been brought up multiple times but in reality would be horrible unless it was a heavily printed card before moderns start point. Just imagine in push (granted this is talking new not just a reprint) was printed that way. Instead of a $5 uncommon it'd be like $20. MM product is already too pricey and having it as a way to introduce cards to the format is bad unless they are previously heavily printed (like counterspell) or all the new cards are commons. Another example would be commander product, if it weren't for legacy playables almost everything would be worth pennies. There are just too few cards at a low rarity that would effect modern. Supply is so limited on legacy stuff that is semi playable (unless reprinted in conspiracy/commander (unlimited print runs)) that the prices would be outrageous if they went above common imo.
EDIT: Not to mention that then wotc would have to actually test these cards and we've all seen how well they do at that.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Sorry, I should have been more clear in my original post; I'm not suggesting that brand new cards be introduced through MM. Only cards that already exist. But yes, exactly something like counterspell; cards that are legacy legal but pre-date modern.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
The format is DEFINITELY slower with the ban of probe, I'm really shocked how effective the banning was. Infect looks really dead to me now though, I think for the first time in a long time it's going to drop into tier 3. It's nearly dead on mtgo, it's down in paper shares, and people who said they played it in regionals were out so quick it wasn't even funny.
The new death shadow aggro is powerful and fast without feelings oppressively so, it's fast and grindy. I don't own that deck, but for like 100 dollars I could buy the pieces I don't own. I think I'm only like 20ish away on mtgo.
Rallier is the real ******* deal in company decks, I think Rallier may actually be the allstar from the new set, not Fatal Push (oddly enough).
Blue still sucks. Wasn't there 1 Jeskai deck that hit like 2nd place in the regionals though?
I didn't mean to say ponder earlier yesterday, I meant preordain.
Also, Sheridan, even though MTGO's shares say Junk is higher than Jund's, it's notably been shrinking and underperformed in the regionals, everyone was playing Jund and most people agree Jund is better, I'm not sure Abzan is being very pushed right now, I don't think SFM is an unreasonable ban. You said it yourself, white is absolute crap in modern, and blue's not far behind. SFM is literally the definition of blue and white packaged into one card.
I no longer feel the talk of unbanning Splinger Twin is unreasonable anymore, and I can't defend that ban now, WOTC's goal of empowering blue has been an absolute failure
Either take the chance and unban a very huge blue card or just bring Twin again.
Now, if blue gains preordain, maybe Jace, doesn't it seem dangerous to unban Twin then? Just a question for the more seasoned blue players
This isn't accurate at all. SFM slots into any Wxx deck that can also host an equipment package, not any white/blue deck. For example, DnT and Maverick are both more than happy to run SFM without running blue, whereas UWr Miracles doesn't have any need for her. I'm guessing you're referring to Caw-blade when you say she's white and blue, but in legacy that (Stoneblade) is just one of three prominent decks that actually run her. I'm thoroughly of the opinion that she shouldn't be unbanned in modern, even with Jitte still on the banlist. Or if you do unban her, then Batterskull needs the axe.
The issue with Splinter Twin wasn't that it made blue too powerful, but rather that it was deemed too oppressive on the format. Which was, in a way, correct, since we saw a proliferation of many different archetypes after Twin fell (albeit most of them being linear decks). Twin gave URx decks an oops-I-win switch, but it was also the only viable way to run blue. Preordain and counterspell would help blue much more (and also keep it more diverse so that you don't always have to run URx).
Modern:
UU Merfolk UU
RW RW Prison RW
Legacy:
WW Death and Taxes WW
Arguably the only reason why Twin got banned was the PT to "shake things up".
Twin would be a safe unban, and I strongly believe it will happen at some point.
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Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
To their credit, they gave a specific reason why they banned Twin
Of course, Wizards has certainly proven they're capable of getting things way wrong, but it's pretty much what I said, and think about it: if Twin is unbanned, could any blue deck conceivably run anything but URx? There'd be no Esper or Sultai control. Twin addresses the symptom but not the cause.
Modern:
UU Merfolk UU
RW RW Prison RW
Legacy:
WW Death and Taxes WW
And by extension, that is caused by wotc literally back seat driving the constructed format instead of improving the affordability of the more expensive archetypes. However, I've just about given up on the company letting go of the collectors market since they allowed the financial bubble to grow too big. If they try to fix the format they'd have to break the bubble around the big name cards and unfortunately wotc seems to have a rather short sighted outlook in this regard.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Sry for my english
I'm fine with them printing new cards that break established decks - re-banning Troll shouldn't change anyone's confidence levels.
So now we are in the situation where the support offered was insufficient - not that it didn't happen. So more support is needed, not regressing back to the twin era of 'no other Uxx control decks possible". As soon as twin comes back, other Uxx reactive decks won't really make sense - which was the problem in the first place. Grixis control, UW control and Esper control decks have all been gaining ground and would be effectively eliminated if twin came back. The strategy should instead be, to no one's surprise, help all Uxx control decks, not just URx.
As I said before, Jace, the Mind Sculptor makes a lot more sense if the goal is to help all Uxx control/midrange decks instead of just URx.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Another topic, Nationals are back, and all are standard, and MWC is std too... is wizards trying to kill modern?