I don't think "wanting to play the most busted deck" is something that should necessary be considered bad. Part of the reason I loved Amulet Bloom is simply because I loved being able to do the powerful things that the deck did, along with the intricacy to its lines of play.
Wanting to be able to do powerful things is part of the appeal of the game for many people, and not one we should look upon poorly, even though the idea that everyone should be able to do a bunch of powerful things would lead to a very insular format.
That's why I don't like the idea of having a one size fits all mentality with bannings. It feels like it's just punishing people who want to play the game the way they want just because some subset of the entire group wants the closest thing they can envision as a fair tournament setting.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I consider "wanting to play the most busted deck" somewhat of a bad thing, b/c busted decks should not exist in any format of this game that seeks to draw in large amounts of players. Busted decks belong on the kitchen table. That's obviously my opinion, and we can certainly argue or debate on what constitutes "busted" and what does not, but it appears to be an opinion shared by WotC.
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FREE MODERN. Break the Standard link.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
I don't think "wanting to play the most busted deck" is something that should necessary be considered bad. Part of the reason I loved Amulet Bloom is simply because I loved being able to do the powerful things that the deck did, along with the intricacy to its lines of play.
Wanting to be able to do powerful things is part of the appeal of the game for many people, and not one we should look upon poorly, even though the idea that everyone should be able to do a bunch of powerful things would lead to a very insular format.
But you would have to admit that amuletbloom was broken, its power level was so far ahead of what other decks could do that it was warping the format. Same as IEldrazi decks. I'm all for powerful things in the game, as long as there is some measure of balance between powers. We can't really have a format where you have 99% of the decks using rifles and canons while 1% gets machine guns and nukes. This is kind of a on going problem for the format how to you make very powerful affects without putting the entire format out of balance to one deck or strategies favor. Modalism is great and all everyone likes Cryptic Command, Kcommand etc.... I feel like these kinds of cards are little to weak to stop broken things. We need a resurgence in powerful non-creature spells not just multiple middle ground options.
I consider "wanting to play the most busted deck" somewhat of a bad thing, b/c busted decks should not exist in any format of this game that seeks to draw in large amounts of players. Busted decks belong on the kitchen table. That's obviously my opinion, and we can certainly argue or debate on what constitutes "busted" and what does not, but it appears to be an opinion shared by WotC.
Infect was Gitaxian Probe was not a busted deck. Splinter Twin was not a busted deck. Those decks were not busted or metagame warping.
Amulet Bloom, Dredge, UR Delver with TC/DTT, were busted decks. That's why those bans, even if they are allright, will be forever dubious.
I don't know I think that Twin was format warping, just look at how much the format opened up once the T4 death threat was removed. I just don't think it was as obviously warping the format because it has existed since the start of the format. It was kind of like when your a child and you live with your parents you have to live by their rules. The banning was like going to college suddenly you are afforded more liberty of choice even if it opens up the possibility for bad ones that might not have been open to you before.
I played Twin, I liked the deck. It was my favorite deck to run while it was legal if I wanted to play in a event etc... But I understood that I couldn't play something like Grixis Delver and expect to do well while it was in the format, It was the URx deck you had to play if. I knew that I couldn't play a deck that didn't either establish its board before T3 or that didn't have some natural way of avoiding the instant kill BGx decks do with Abrupt Decay. It put a cap on the format, it was warping the format.
I consider "wanting to play the most busted deck" somewhat of a bad thing, b/c busted decks should not exist in any format of this game that seeks to draw in large amounts of players. Busted decks belong on the kitchen table. That's obviously my opinion, and we can certainly argue or debate on what constitutes "busted" and what does not, but it appears to be an opinion shared by WotC.
Infect with Gitaxian Probe and Fatal Push incoming was not a busted deck. Splinter Twin was not a busted deck. Those decks were not busted or metagame warping.
Amulet Bloom, Dredge, UR Delver with TC/DTT, were busted decks. That's why those bans, even if they are allright, will be forever dubious.
I disagree with you regarding both Twin and Probe. So does WotC. Twin in fact was the very definition of a metagame warping deck b/c of the inability for decks running creatures or sorceries to tap out any time after turn 2. It stifled both card and deck playability. If people don't consider that metagame warping I suggest they retune their perspectives.
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FREE MODERN. Break the Standard link.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
Do you guys think any of the Grishoalbrand cards will see a bann inn the near future? Because i fall in love with tht deck and aim to build it in irl and i would be rly sad if key cards would see bans in the near future
Probably not. If Dredge lives in this format, sideboards will always have grave hate, and the deck will always be contained. Its diff higher on the unfair scale. But realistically, if Spirit Guide or something eats a ban, the deck will just turn more like reanimator in legacy. Slower, but harder to stop.
Do you guys think any of the Grishoalbrand cards will see a bann inn the near future? Because i fall in love with tht deck and aim to build it in irl and i would be rly sad if key cards would see bans in the near future
The deck is fine, despite the occasional outcry on these forums. It hasn't been consistent enough (very few tournament results of note) to be an issue for the format. If it were to become a problem there are several targets that don't outright kill the archetype (I personally would advocate nourishing shoal since that is what allows you to abuse griselbrand and gives the deck resiliency against interaction via splice). Anyway, it is a safe enough deck at the moment, even if it isn't the safest by any means.
Do you guys think any of the Grishoalbrand cards will see a bann inn the near future? Because i fall in love with tht deck and aim to build it in irl and i would be rly sad if key cards would see bans in the near future
The deck is fine, despite the occasional outcry on these forums. It hasn't been consistent enough (very few tournament results of note) to be an issue for the format. If it were to become a problem there are several targets that don't outright kill the archetype (I personally would advocate nourishing shoal since that is what allows you to abuse griselbrand and gives the deck resiliency against interaction via splice). Anyway, it is a safe enough deck at the moment, even if it isn't the safest by any means.
I agree. I think this is the first time I've seen anyone saying Nourishing Shoal if anything and I have to say...I like it.. I don't think anything should be banned, but then I didn't think that Probe should be banned. If Shoal goes some day though, I can play the deck with Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn instead of Wurm. I like Emrakul more, but that Wurm is just SOOOO good in the current Shoal version.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I consider "wanting to play the most busted deck" somewhat of a bad thing, b/c busted decks should not exist in any format of this game that seeks to draw in large amounts of players. Busted decks belong on the kitchen table. That's obviously my opinion, and we can certainly argue or debate on what constitutes "busted" and what does not, but it appears to be an opinion shared by WotC.
Infect with Gitaxian Probe and Fatal Push incoming was not a busted deck. Splinter Twin was not a busted deck. Those decks were not busted or metagame warping.
Amulet Bloom, Dredge, UR Delver with TC/DTT, were busted decks. That's why those bans, even if they are allright, will be forever dubious.
I disagree with you regarding both Twin and Probe. So does WotC. Twin in fact was the very definition of a metagame warping deck b/c of the inability for decks running creatures or sorceries to tap out any time after turn 2.
So because someone plays against Twin in a somewhat different manner than you would against most other decks, it's somehow warping to the metagame? Even though what you describe applies only to playing against that specific matchup? What you're describing isn't even a matter of deck construction, it's a matter of how you play against a particular deck. That is not metagame warping.
It stifled both card and deck playability. If people don't consider that metagame warping I suggest they retune their perspectives.
Every good deck "warps" the metagame to some extent because you have to at least consider it. Twin was really not worse than other decks in that regard.
I consider "wanting to play the most busted deck" somewhat of a bad thing, b/c busted decks should not exist in any format of this game that seeks to draw in large amounts of players. Busted decks belong on the kitchen table. That's obviously my opinion, and we can certainly argue or debate on what constitutes "busted" and what does not, but it appears to be an opinion shared by WotC.
Infect with Gitaxian Probe and Fatal Push incoming was not a busted deck. Splinter Twin was not a busted deck. Those decks were not busted or metagame warping.
Amulet Bloom, Dredge, UR Delver with TC/DTT, were busted decks. That's why those bans, even if they are allright, will be forever dubious.
I disagree with you regarding both Twin and Probe. So does WotC. Twin in fact was the very definition of a metagame warping deck b/c of the inability for decks running creatures or sorceries to tap out any time after turn 2.
So because someone plays against Twin in a somewhat different manner than you would against most other decks, it's somehow warping to the metagame? Even though what you describe applies only to playing against that specific matchup? What you're describing isn't even a matter of deck construction, it's a matter of how you play against a particular deck. That is not metagame warping.
It stifled both card and deck playability. If people don't consider that metagame warping I suggest they retune their perspectives.
Every good deck "warps" the metagame to some extent because you have to at least consider it. Twin was really not worse than other decks in that regard.
idk dredge got hit for warping the metagame into a sideboard format apparently, and it wasn't even 10 percent of the meta.
I think since any top tier deck can warp the game, then they should answer too thier sins if they warp the game too far.
The one aspect of bannings that I dislike is when they hit a card that just feels like a really fun piece to play around with. Birthing Pod was probably an inevitable banning, but I can help but feel they also let that card impact the design of Emerge creatures. I think I said in an earlier thread that Emerge would have been a lot better if they had something like...
Nameless Cultist GB
"G Tap: Search your library for a creature with an emerge cost and put it into your hand. You may use Cultist to pay the emerge cost. If you do not, sacrifice Cultist."
0/3
Likewise, I think the power of searching and getting to play an artifact at the same time is why they are scared of unbanning stoneforge mystic.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Twin wasn't format warping in the sense that every deck had to devote a billion sideboard slots to it (ok five or six) like with dredge, and it wasn't UW eldrazi-warping in that it was the only viable deck. It was warping in that it crushed the metagame around it. 4 cmc threats were poor, most cheap removal other than lightning bolt was unplayable if it didn't hit the twin creatures, etc.
It's telling to look at abrupt decay numbers. Pre Twin-ban, it was an automatic 4x in virtually every BGx deck. Post twin-banning, Decay is often relegated to a 2 or 3 of, and some builds cut down on it even further than that. We also see more 4-drops being played in general. It was warping the same way that jace, the mind sculptor was warping in standard, whereby cmc 4+ creatures were unplayable if they didn't have an ETB effect, or like in standard now where the removal of reflector mage allows 4-drops like Gisela and the demon to see play, and kalitas to see mainboard play, where before it was all ishkanah and nothing else at 5-6 mana, because it had an ETB effect that couldn't be completely out-tempo'd by reflector mage.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Yes, unless we want to call Kiki-Cord a Twin replacement, Company is plenty strong and replaced the engine of Pod decks while remaining in a competitive place for some time.
Hell, last SCG even had Abzan Company in second! Kiki-Mite...hmm missing from the list.
EDIT: FCG, I would take lifting without the Juice, if I wasnt lifting with depressed tesosterone with Kiki.
Yes, usually i make the Kiki-chord comment on this, because one fact is always ignored: Before the pod ban, there were several pod-decks, and while there are several company decks, only one of the pod decks survived the ban and transformed into company. the other pod decks are dead, and the other "company" decks evolved in the company direction from another starting point (like company elves, or company spirits).
Maybe I'm wrong here but there were mainly 2 Pod decks. Melira Pod and Kiki Pod. Melira Pod is Melira Company now and Kiki Pod is Kiki Chord now (they even splash for a 4th colour).
During the DtT/TC era there was also value Pod which didn't play any creature at all but we don't know if that was a deck that was just a meta call or if it had the power to stay. And even you could argue that Little Kid Abzan replaced that one for a while (until the meta changed and made it a bad call).
The Pod ban was definitely one of the better bans for the format (although it was unfortunate that Pod players didn't now that Collected Company was about to give them a replacement).
In standard, they could print the legendary duals (ie Legendary Land - Island Swamp). These are obviously great but also make deck building interesting because they are legendary.
If legendary duals were printed, you could print:
Unworthy Ruin
Land
Tap: add <>
1, Tap, sacrifice: destroy target nonbasic, nonlegendary land.
If it was in a standard with a variety of legendary lands, it would actually make for some interesting deck construction without overpowering land death in standard. Also helps the duals price issue in legacy. Also makes land-death better in modern without totally breaking things.
Yes, unless we want to call Kiki-Cord a Twin replacement, Company is plenty strong and replaced the engine of Pod decks while remaining in a competitive place for some time.
Hell, last SCG even had Abzan Company in second! Kiki-Mite...hmm missing from the list.
EDIT: FCG, I would take lifting without the Juice, if I wasnt lifting with depressed tesosterone with Kiki.
Yes, usually i make the Kiki-chord comment on this, because one fact is always ignored: Before the pod ban, there were several pod-decks, and while there are several company decks, only one of the pod decks survived the ban and transformed into company. the other pod decks are dead, and the other "company" decks evolved in the company direction from another starting point (like company elves, or company spirits).
Most those other style pod decks were just variations of the tool box set up they were not really unique decks. Some lowered the combo creatures numbers in favor of more value creatures or in favor of more "silver bullet" creatures. This is why pod was bad for the format, if a pod player felt that the combo was the best way they could just minimize the tool box count, and if they felt that the tool box was more important just reduce the combo count. Pretty much every company deck runs some number of cords and still runs some elements of the tool box or value creature packages, yes they can't run 13+ creature tool box as reliably but that is why the deck invalidated all other creature decks to begin with.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Lantern players better start praying their deck doesn't get popular then.
Seriously though, this could open up a whole new can of worms and definitely isn't good for confidence in the format.
Yep, that's really not a confidence-inspiring policy. I'm all for policies being flexible and allowing for discretion and judgment, but that's the kind of policy which goes beyond flexibility and just gets arbitrary and subjective. It's particularly scary when players don't know what kind of "experience" qualifies as "the most enjoyable for the most people," so we have no idea what we're signing up for.
I'll also acknowledge that we shouldn't read too heavily into these offhanded Twitter posts. They are important pieces of evidence but need to be considered in context and with some grains of salt.
Its true. Whats healthy sometimes isnt very fun. Counterspells after counters arent fun.
But neither is losing to a turn 3 nut belecher. Counters happen to stop that.
Counters and belcher can be interchanged with other word like removal and 15/15 trample, but it doesnt matter. Fun=/=healthy. This is a pvp game for.god sakes, someone has to lose and feel not super great.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
This is a pvp game for.god sakes, someone has to lose and feel not super great.
Ähm, why? If i play legacy, i usually do have fun on the close game, and the many decisions you have to make, so even if i lose, i usually enjoyed the game.
Thats not true with modern, there are some decks i don´t enjoy playing against (or with).
But that IS a point of the format, not of the game in general.
Regardless of if you have fun, the point is well there are several.
1. Not everyone has the same 'fun'. I dont particularly find mashing creatures together fun. I enjoy (a lot!) dumping my deck in the yard and delving something powerful out. See also: Prison, UW Draw Go, Esper Draw Go, Dredge, Lanter, Taking Turns, Grisolbrand, Hulk Combo, Storm, or any other strategy that is not midrange/grinding value.
2. Maro has commented on 'unfun' mechanics, based on market research. They avoid those.
Fun for everyone is impossible if they want to allow fun for those who like the deck types I noted in point 1 while also allowing for point 2.
Important thing to point out, but you said you have fun in legacy because of the close games.
Legacy's answers are such that even if you lose, you can very often keep it going for a while.
In modern, a good number of my losses come from getting run over.
All the answers I have in my hand are too slow/weak to make the game even remotely close.
Thats not fun.
Sure, someone always has to win, and someone has to lose (for a majority of games). How the winner and the loser feel about it afterwards vary, but I would say a vast majority of people prefer close games to stomps, for either side.
Sure, if you're playing some nifty combo, obliterating people can be funny, but it gets old, and at some point, the games you remember the most arent the "I turn one-d someone on the play cuz force of will doesn't beat chancellor of the annex" and are instead "I won on turn 20 after grinding through 15 answers before finally reanimating my opponent's mentor for the win".
Its the close games that leave lasting impressions, for the most part.
I think a lot of us would rather have close games vs jund than stomps against something else though.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
And there is logic to that, in that Jund doesn't win on the spot.
Even an opener like IOK, Goyf, Lily, has points of interaction. While other things have little.
Maybe you Ghost Quarter a tron land and set them back a turn...it still doesn't feel great.
We circle right back to 'do we have answers' and really I think we will find soon, that outside of Land Destruction for Tron and such...yes we do have answers, or we are getting close.
Important thing to point out, but you said you have fun in legacy because of the close games.
Legacy's answers are such that even if you lose, you can very often keep it going for a while.
In modern, a good number of my losses come from getting run over.
All the answers I have in my hand are too slow/weak to make the game even remotely close.
Thats not fun.
Sure, someone always has to win, and someone has to lose (for a majority of games). How the winner and the loser feel about it afterwards vary, but I would say a vast majority of people prefer close games to stomps, for either side.
Sure, if you're playing some nifty combo, obliterating people can be funny, but it gets old, and at some point, the games you remember the most arent the "I turn one-d someone on the play cuz force of will doesn't beat chancellor of the annex" and are instead "I won on turn 20 after grinding through 15 answers before finally reanimating my opponent's mentor for the win".
Its the close games that leave lasting impressions, for the most part.
I think a lot of us would rather have close games vs jund than stomps against something else though.
So just play Jund?
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Modern RGTron UGInfect URStorm WUBRAd Nauseam BRGrishoalbrand URGScapeshift WBGAbzan Company WUBRGAmulet Titan BRGLiving End WGBogles
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That's why I don't like the idea of having a one size fits all mentality with bannings. It feels like it's just punishing people who want to play the game the way they want just because some subset of the entire group wants the closest thing they can envision as a fair tournament setting.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
But you would have to admit that amuletbloom was broken, its power level was so far ahead of what other decks could do that it was warping the format. Same as IEldrazi decks. I'm all for powerful things in the game, as long as there is some measure of balance between powers. We can't really have a format where you have 99% of the decks using rifles and canons while 1% gets machine guns and nukes. This is kind of a on going problem for the format how to you make very powerful affects without putting the entire format out of balance to one deck or strategies favor. Modalism is great and all everyone likes Cryptic Command, Kcommand etc.... I feel like these kinds of cards are little to weak to stop broken things. We need a resurgence in powerful non-creature spells not just multiple middle ground options.
I don't know I think that Twin was format warping, just look at how much the format opened up once the T4 death threat was removed. I just don't think it was as obviously warping the format because it has existed since the start of the format. It was kind of like when your a child and you live with your parents you have to live by their rules. The banning was like going to college suddenly you are afforded more liberty of choice even if it opens up the possibility for bad ones that might not have been open to you before.
I played Twin, I liked the deck. It was my favorite deck to run while it was legal if I wanted to play in a event etc... But I understood that I couldn't play something like Grixis Delver and expect to do well while it was in the format, It was the URx deck you had to play if. I knew that I couldn't play a deck that didn't either establish its board before T3 or that didn't have some natural way of avoiding the instant kill BGx decks do with Abrupt Decay. It put a cap on the format, it was warping the format.
I disagree with you regarding both Twin and Probe. So does WotC. Twin in fact was the very definition of a metagame warping deck b/c of the inability for decks running creatures or sorceries to tap out any time after turn 2. It stifled both card and deck playability. If people don't consider that metagame warping I suggest they retune their perspectives.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
Probably not. If Dredge lives in this format, sideboards will always have grave hate, and the deck will always be contained. Its diff higher on the unfair scale. But realistically, if Spirit Guide or something eats a ban, the deck will just turn more like reanimator in legacy. Slower, but harder to stop.
You're probably fine.
The deck is fine, despite the occasional outcry on these forums. It hasn't been consistent enough (very few tournament results of note) to be an issue for the format. If it were to become a problem there are several targets that don't outright kill the archetype (I personally would advocate nourishing shoal since that is what allows you to abuse griselbrand and gives the deck resiliency against interaction via splice). Anyway, it is a safe enough deck at the moment, even if it isn't the safest by any means.
I agree. I think this is the first time I've seen anyone saying Nourishing Shoal if anything and I have to say...I like it.. I don't think anything should be banned, but then I didn't think that Probe should be banned. If Shoal goes some day though, I can play the deck with Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn instead of Wurm. I like Emrakul more, but that Wurm is just SOOOO good in the current Shoal version.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)So because someone plays against Twin in a somewhat different manner than you would against most other decks, it's somehow warping to the metagame? Even though what you describe applies only to playing against that specific matchup? What you're describing isn't even a matter of deck construction, it's a matter of how you play against a particular deck. That is not metagame warping.
Every good deck "warps" the metagame to some extent because you have to at least consider it. Twin was really not worse than other decks in that regard.
I think since any top tier deck can warp the game, then they should answer too thier sins if they warp the game too far.
decks playing:
none
Nameless Cultist GB
"G Tap: Search your library for a creature with an emerge cost and put it into your hand. You may use Cultist to pay the emerge cost. If you do not, sacrifice Cultist."
0/3
Likewise, I think the power of searching and getting to play an artifact at the same time is why they are scared of unbanning stoneforge mystic.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It's telling to look at abrupt decay numbers. Pre Twin-ban, it was an automatic 4x in virtually every BGx deck. Post twin-banning, Decay is often relegated to a 2 or 3 of, and some builds cut down on it even further than that. We also see more 4-drops being played in general. It was warping the same way that jace, the mind sculptor was warping in standard, whereby cmc 4+ creatures were unplayable if they didn't have an ETB effect, or like in standard now where the removal of reflector mage allows 4-drops like Gisela and the demon to see play, and kalitas to see mainboard play, where before it was all ishkanah and nothing else at 5-6 mana, because it had an ETB effect that couldn't be completely out-tempo'd by reflector mage.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Maybe I'm wrong here but there were mainly 2 Pod decks. Melira Pod and Kiki Pod. Melira Pod is Melira Company now and Kiki Pod is Kiki Chord now (they even splash for a 4th colour).
During the DtT/TC era there was also value Pod which didn't play any creature at all but we don't know if that was a deck that was just a meta call or if it had the power to stay. And even you could argue that Little Kid Abzan replaced that one for a while (until the meta changed and made it a bad call).
The Pod ban was definitely one of the better bans for the format (although it was unfortunate that Pod players didn't now that Collected Company was about to give them a replacement).
In standard, they could print the legendary duals (ie Legendary Land - Island Swamp). These are obviously great but also make deck building interesting because they are legendary.
If legendary duals were printed, you could print:
Unworthy Ruin
Land
Tap: add <>
1, Tap, sacrifice: destroy target nonbasic, nonlegendary land.
If it was in a standard with a variety of legendary lands, it would actually make for some interesting deck construction without overpowering land death in standard. Also helps the duals price issue in legacy. Also makes land-death better in modern without totally breaking things.
Most those other style pod decks were just variations of the tool box set up they were not really unique decks. Some lowered the combo creatures numbers in favor of more value creatures or in favor of more "silver bullet" creatures. This is why pod was bad for the format, if a pod player felt that the combo was the best way they could just minimize the tool box count, and if they felt that the tool box was more important just reduce the combo count. Pretty much every company deck runs some number of cords and still runs some elements of the tool box or value creature packages, yes they can't run 13+ creature tool box as reliably but that is why the deck invalidated all other creature decks to begin with.
Seriously though, this could open up a whole new can of worms and definitely isn't good for confidence in the format.
Yep, that's really not a confidence-inspiring policy. I'm all for policies being flexible and allowing for discretion and judgment, but that's the kind of policy which goes beyond flexibility and just gets arbitrary and subjective. It's particularly scary when players don't know what kind of "experience" qualifies as "the most enjoyable for the most people," so we have no idea what we're signing up for.
I'll also acknowledge that we shouldn't read too heavily into these offhanded Twitter posts. They are important pieces of evidence but need to be considered in context and with some grains of salt.
But neither is losing to a turn 3 nut belecher. Counters happen to stop that.
Counters and belcher can be interchanged with other word like removal and 15/15 trample, but it doesnt matter. Fun=/=healthy. This is a pvp game for.god sakes, someone has to lose and feel not super great.
"Fun isn't used over data. Data is a huge part of the process. It's just that balance is an insufficient goal."
Feeling better already! As I love to say, "context matters!"
Regardless of if you have fun, the point is well there are several.
1. Not everyone has the same 'fun'. I dont particularly find mashing creatures together fun. I enjoy (a lot!) dumping my deck in the yard and delving something powerful out. See also: Prison, UW Draw Go, Esper Draw Go, Dredge, Lanter, Taking Turns, Grisolbrand, Hulk Combo, Storm, or any other strategy that is not midrange/grinding value.
2. Maro has commented on 'unfun' mechanics, based on market research. They avoid those.
Fun for everyone is impossible if they want to allow fun for those who like the deck types I noted in point 1 while also allowing for point 2.
We dont all want to play Jund.
Spirits
Legacy's answers are such that even if you lose, you can very often keep it going for a while.
In modern, a good number of my losses come from getting run over.
All the answers I have in my hand are too slow/weak to make the game even remotely close.
Thats not fun.
Sure, someone always has to win, and someone has to lose (for a majority of games). How the winner and the loser feel about it afterwards vary, but I would say a vast majority of people prefer close games to stomps, for either side.
Sure, if you're playing some nifty combo, obliterating people can be funny, but it gets old, and at some point, the games you remember the most arent the "I turn one-d someone on the play cuz force of will doesn't beat chancellor of the annex" and are instead "I won on turn 20 after grinding through 15 answers before finally reanimating my opponent's mentor for the win".
Its the close games that leave lasting impressions, for the most part.
I think a lot of us would rather have close games vs jund than stomps against something else though.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Even an opener like IOK, Goyf, Lily, has points of interaction. While other things have little.
Maybe you Ghost Quarter a tron land and set them back a turn...it still doesn't feel great.
We circle right back to 'do we have answers' and really I think we will find soon, that outside of Land Destruction for Tron and such...yes we do have answers, or we are getting close.
Spirits
So just play Jund?
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles