I think Stoneforge Mystic would be fine for Modern. I'd argue that Goyf, Confidant, Snapcaster, and even Grim Flayer are just as strong if not stronger, and those cards are all ubiquitous in the format. Look at all the hoops one has to jump through to get value out of Mystic when you can just slam down Goyf at the same mana cost and get value off the deck construction of the opponent sitting opposite you.
Also agree that the color BLUE needs to be powered up a bit for the BLUE mages, but powering up BLUE, imho, does not mean that BLUE needs RED, GREEN, WHITE, or BLACK cards to make it go. It merely needs better BLUE cards to help it along that are mana restrictive enough that those cards are hard to splash in fast aggro or combo decks.
Kind of find it funny that I actually took the plunge finally and bought a playset of them. The trouble with her is that the second she gets unbanned she doesn't have enough printings going around at this point to keep up at her current price. Not to mention she is a yearly speculation target whenever ban announcements come about. I think the concerns with Stoneforge mystic are more about the decks she can fit into, not necessarily the new types of decks that she enables. Death and Taxes is a deck I've wanted to play for a long time and would love a modern version, but it really does need SFM to work. It's like Splinter Twin without Splinter Twin.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
In retrospect, it seems hard to justify the banning of Gitaxian Probe in the context of printing Fatal Push, as Fatal Push is a decent-to-great card against every single deck running Gitaxian Probe.
In retrospect, it seems hard to justify the banning of Gitaxian Probe in the context of printing Fatal Push, as Fatal Push is a decent-to-great card against every single deck running Gitaxian Probe.
Definitely agreed. Given Fatal Push will likely have the same effect on the meta as they were going for with the Gitaxian Probe ban, it does seem very unusual. (Especially since Stoddard has since written about how Push was designed with Modern in mind.) I see two potential ways of squaring that, and I think they both likely exist in tandem:
It was a ban on principle, which I think is supported by the ban announcement (given the language like "doing too much for too little")
It's meant to clear the way for a potential Preordain unban, since the Gitaxian Probe ban powers down most of the decks WotC considers problematic that might get an uptick from running Preordain – basically blue aggro and UR Storm
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
In retrospect, it seems hard to justify the banning of Gitaxian Probe in the context of printing Fatal Push, as Fatal Push is a decent-to-great card against every single deck running Gitaxian Probe.
Fatal Push does not stop Gitaxian Probe being Gitaxian Probe. Gitaxian Probe can still, for ZERO mana, look at opponent's had to see if they do, or do not, have Fatal Push, and then enable all the other things possible on the turn as before.
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FREE MODERN. Break the Standard link.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
In retrospect, it seems hard to justify the banning of Gitaxian Probe in the context of printing Fatal Push, as Fatal Push is a decent-to-great card against every single deck running Gitaxian Probe.
Definitely agreed. Given Fatal Push will likely have the same effect on the meta as they were going for with the Gitaxian Probe ban, it does seem very unusual. (Especially since Stoddard has since written about how Push was designed with Modern in mind.) I see two potential ways of squaring that, and I think they both likely exist in tandem:
It was a ban on principle, which I think is supported by the ban announcement (given the language like "doing too much for too little")
It's meant to clear the way for a potential Preordain unban, since the Gitaxian Probe ban powers down most of the decks WotC considers problematic that might get an uptick from running Preordain – basically blue aggro and UR Storm
According to the announcement, GP specifically helped decks win on turn three too often. Wizards must have conjectured that even with Push legal, GP would enable turn three wins in the same ways that it already did. They have way more data than we can ever dream of, and I don't see a good argument as to why we should assume they're lying to us.
It's also worth noting that new cards incoming have never stopped Wizards from acting based on the existing metagame. See: Twin ban despite Eldrazi on the horizon.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
In retrospect, it seems hard to justify the banning of Gitaxian Probe in the context of printing Fatal Push, as Fatal Push is a decent-to-great card against every single deck running Gitaxian Probe.
Fatal Push does not stop Gitaxian Probe being Gitaxian Probe. Gitaxian Probe can still, for ZERO mana, look at opponent's had to see if they do, or do not, have Fatal Push, and then enable all the other things possible on the turn as before.
It might not stop Gitaxian Probe from being Gitaxian Probe, but it stops the Gitaxian Probe decks from doing what they want to do, which is even more useful.
If Wasteland was printed into Modern, it wouldn't have any actual effect on Ancient Stirrings (it still has the same effect), but it'd be absurd to claim that most Ancient Stirrings decks wouldn't take a big hit from that card being legal.
In retrospect, it seems hard to justify the banning of Gitaxian Probe in the context of printing Fatal Push, as Fatal Push is a decent-to-great card against every single deck running Gitaxian Probe.
Fatal Push does not stop Gitaxian Probe being Gitaxian Probe. Gitaxian Probe can still, for ZERO mana, look at opponent's had to see if they do, or do not, have Fatal Push, and then enable all the other things possible on the turn as before.
It might not stop Gitaxian Probe from being Gitaxian Probe, but it stops the Gitaxian Probe decks from doing what they want to do, which is even more useful.
If Wasteland was printed into Modern, it wouldn't have any actual effect on Ancient Stirrings (it still has the same effect), but it'd be absurd to claim that most Ancient Stirrings decks wouldn't take a big hit from that card being legal.
Except that decks that run Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt still lost to the decks that Push would help against. It doesn't matter if it isn't in your hand when Blooicide or Infect was going off.
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
In retrospect, it seems hard to justify the banning of Gitaxian Probe in the context of printing Fatal Push, as Fatal Push is a decent-to-great card against every single deck running Gitaxian Probe.
Definitely agreed. Given Fatal Push will likely have the same effect on the meta as they were going for with the Gitaxian Probe ban, it does seem very unusual. (Especially since Stoddard has since written about how Push was designed with Modern in mind.) I see two potential ways of squaring that, and I think they both likely exist in tandem:
It was a ban on principle, which I think is supported by the ban announcement (given the language like "doing too much for too little")
It's meant to clear the way for a potential Preordain unban, since the Gitaxian Probe ban powers down most of the decks WotC considers problematic that might get an uptick from running Preordain – basically blue aggro and UR Storm
According to the announcement, GP specifically helped decks win on turn three too often. Wizards must have conjectured that even with Push legal, GP would enable turn three wins in the same ways that it already did. They have way more data than we can ever dream of, and I don't see a good argument as to why we should assume they're lying to us.
One wonders, then, why Infect didn't receive a ban in the 2 year period after Become Immense got printed and now. Sure, it got Blossoming Defense, but the way Blossoming Defense benefitted the deck wasn't an increase in speed, but an increase in resilience. Apparently, it was okay then but not now because it was easier to thwart in the past, which made its speed acceptable, and Blossoming Defense made it hard enough to thwart that the speed became unacceptable. But Fatal Push works to reverse that trend by making Infect easier to thwart, restoring it to its previous, more acceptable level (if not going back even further).
It's also worth noting that new cards incoming have never stopped Wizards from acting based on the existing metagame. See: Twin ban despite Eldrazi on the horizon.
How is this relevant? The Eldrazi weren't custom-built to beat Twin.
It's also worth noting that new cards incoming have never stopped Wizards from acting based on the existing metagame. See: Twin ban despite Eldrazi on the horizon.
How is this relevant? The Eldrazi weren't custom-built to beat Twin.
The point seems valid to me - it's not that Eldrazi were custom built for anything, but rather just pointing out that potential metagame shifts due to unreleased cards have not shown to impact a ban decision in the moment. There isn't much evidence, but the evidence that exists hints at it. Eldrazi was in the pipe and about to shift the meta, but WotC ignored the cards in the pipe and just acted on the metagame as it stood at the time.
Ergo, even with push coming down the pipe, WotC acted on the basis of what the meta was doing at the time, not waiting to see if a card in the pipe would change it. Makes sense - they always have cards in the pipe, and likely there are constant internal discussions about issues that they might address. If they always waited to see, they would always be waiting since they always have cards in the pipe.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
In retrospect, it seems hard to justify the banning of Gitaxian Probe in the context of printing Fatal Push, as Fatal Push is a decent-to-great card against every single deck running Gitaxian Probe.
Fatal Push does not stop Gitaxian Probe being Gitaxian Probe. Gitaxian Probe can still, for ZERO mana, look at opponent's had to see if they do, or do not, have Fatal Push, and then enable all the other things possible on the turn as before.
It might not stop Gitaxian Probe from being Gitaxian Probe, but it stops the Gitaxian Probe decks from doing what they want to do, which is even more useful.
If Wasteland was printed into Modern, it wouldn't have any actual effect on Ancient Stirrings (it still has the same effect), but it'd be absurd to claim that most Ancient Stirrings decks wouldn't take a big hit from that card being legal.
Except that decks that run Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt still lost to the decks that Push would help against. It doesn't matter if it isn't in your hand when Blooicide or Infect was going off.
What are you talking about? The decks that ran both Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt generally had great matchups against Infect and the like. The problem was that those cards are limited to White and Red. So if you're in neither color you don't have any 1-mana answers (well, I suppose Dismember, but the life loss can be a real liability), and if you're in only one of those colors you only get one of those cards. Fatal Push gives Black decks a removal spell on par with those answers (arguably better, actually). So decks like Grixis or Abzan, previously limited to only one good 1-mana removal spell, now get two.
In retrospect, it seems hard to justify the banning of Gitaxian Probe in the context of printing Fatal Push, as Fatal Push is a decent-to-great card against every single deck running Gitaxian Probe.
Definitely agreed. Given Fatal Push will likely have the same effect on the meta as they were going for with the Gitaxian Probe ban, it does seem very unusual. (Especially since Stoddard has since written about how Push was designed with Modern in mind.) I see two potential ways of squaring that, and I think they both likely exist in tandem:
It was a ban on principle, which I think is supported by the ban announcement (given the language like "doing too much for too little")
It's meant to clear the way for a potential Preordain unban, since the Gitaxian Probe ban powers down most of the decks WotC considers problematic that might get an uptick from running Preordain – basically blue aggro and UR Storm
According to the announcement, GP specifically helped decks win on turn three too often. Wizards must have conjectured that even with Push legal, GP would enable turn three wins in the same ways that it already did. They have way more data than we can ever dream of, and I don't see a good argument as to why we should assume they're lying to us.
One wonders, then, why Infect didn't receive a ban in the 2 year period after Become Immense got printed and now. Sure, it got Blossoming Defense, but the way Blossoming Defense benefitted the deck wasn't an increase in speed, but an increase in resilience. Apparently, it was okay then but not now because it was easier to thwart in the past, which made its speed acceptable, and Blossoming Defense made it hard enough to thwart that the speed became unacceptable. But Fatal Push works to reverse that trend by making Infect easier to thwart, restoring it to its previous, more acceptable level (if not going back even further).
It's also worth noting that new cards incoming have never stopped Wizards from acting based on the existing metagame. See: Twin ban despite Eldrazi on the horizon.
How is this relevant? The Eldrazi weren't custom-built to beat Twin.
It's also worth noting that new cards incoming have never stopped Wizards from acting based on the existing metagame. See: Twin ban despite Eldrazi on the horizon.
How is this relevant? The Eldrazi weren't custom-built to beat Twin.
The point seems valid to me - it's not that Eldrazi were custom built for anything, but rather just pointing out that potential metagame shifts due to unreleased cards have not shown to impact a ban decision in the moment. There isn't much evidence, but the evidence that exists hints at it. Eldrazi was in the pipe and about to shift the meta, but WotC ignored the cards in the pipe and just acted on the metagame as it stood at the time.
But, again, the Eldrazi weren't particularly anti-Twin. Now, I doubt Wizards of the Coast anticipated (or particularly cared) about the effect that deck could have on Modern, but there were three possibilities:
1) Eldrazi would have no effect. No change for Splinter Twin.
2) Eldrazi would be a good deck. Still no change for Splinter Twin, because it doesn't seem like it's particularly geared to beat Twin.
3) Eldrazi would be the crazy powerful deck it was. Still no change for Splinter Twin, because Eldrazi oppressed everything, and wouldn't have pushed down only Twin had it been legal.
There was no reason to believe that the Eldrazi decks would be particularly good against Twin, at least any more than it would be good against any deck. What happened here was more akin to if they had banned Splinter Twin on the same day Rending Volley got released.
Ergo, even with push coming down the pipe, WotC acted on the basis of what the meta was doing at the time, not waiting to see if a card in the pipe would change it. Makes sense - they always have cards in the pipe, and likely there are constant internal discussions about issues that they might address. If they always waited to see, they would always be waiting since they always have cards in the pipe.
But again, we have a card that is good against basically every deck running Gitaxian Probe. We're not just talking about some potentially good card, we're talking about a card that's practically the anti-Infect/Zoo/Kiln Fiend.
In retrospect, it seems hard to justify the banning of Gitaxian Probe in the context of printing Fatal Push, as Fatal Push is a decent-to-great card against every single deck running Gitaxian Probe.
Definitely agreed. Given Fatal Push will likely have the same effect on the meta as they were going for with the Gitaxian Probe ban, it does seem very unusual. (Especially since Stoddard has since written about how Push was designed with Modern in mind.) I see two potential ways of squaring that, and I think they both likely exist in tandem:
It was a ban on principle, which I think is supported by the ban announcement (given the language like "doing too much for too little")
It's meant to clear the way for a potential Preordain unban, since the Gitaxian Probe ban powers down most of the decks WotC considers problematic that might get an uptick from running Preordain – basically blue aggro and UR Storm
According to the announcement, GP specifically helped decks win on turn three too often. Wizards must have conjectured that even with Push legal, GP would enable turn three wins in the same ways that it already did. They have way more data than we can ever dream of, and I don't see a good argument as to why we should assume they're lying to us.
One wonders, then, why Infect didn't receive a ban in the 2 year period after Become Immense got printed and now. Sure, it got Blossoming Defense, but the way Blossoming Defense benefitted the deck wasn't an increase in speed, but an increase in resilience. Apparently, it was okay then but not now because it was easier to thwart in the past, which made its speed acceptable, and Blossoming Defense made it hard enough to thwart that the speed became unacceptable. But Fatal Push works to reverse that trend by making Infect easier to thwart, restoring it to its previous, more acceptable level (if not going back even further).
It's also worth noting that new cards incoming have never stopped Wizards from acting based on the existing metagame. See: Twin ban despite Eldrazi on the horizon.
How is this relevant? The Eldrazi weren't custom-built to beat Twin.
There was no reason to believe that the Eldrazi decks would be particularly good against Twin, at least any more than it would be good against any deck. What happened here was more akin to if they had banned Splinter Twin on the same day Rending Volley got released.
Not really, a better analogue would be if they banned Deceiver Exarch or Pestermite (or an even less important card) on the same day Rending Volley got released. Again, that would support the point - not invalidate it.
The point is that Eldrazi's effect on the meta was not a consideration for the ban, despite the fact that it was likely to have an effect. Similarly, Push's effect on the meta was not a consideration for the gprobe ban, despite the fact that it was likely to have an effect.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I'm still thinking that modern should have a different ban list at the fnm level Vs pro tour and gp level. People just don't play the same decks or the same way at fnm Vs the professional and promotional leagues. That and people at the fnm level often don't have the fluidity and reaction time to roll out of a steep investment if a card does get banned. If that deck is causing problems there may be gentler ways to Nerf it than how wizards goes about it as well.
Why though? Other than with Twin (RIP my sweet princess...) the ban's have not hurt anyone's deck severely.
Pod became Company
Delver is still around as Grixis Delver
Eldrazi never left Tier 1 and there are Tier 2 decks too
Dredge is still a thing
UR Bloo (wtf is with that name...) is still a thing.
Storm can either Storm, or Ritual Gifts Storm.
Jund has laughed off several bans.
Bloom still works ffs!
Honestly, other than Twin, no deck has died.
Thanks for making me think about that, and put me into a depressive spiral...
It's exactly for the reason that they may ban something that kills a deck instead of just weakening it. For a GP level it might make sense since those players should expect to move out of their favorite deck in case of a ban, but for the average player at FNM it's not easy to get out of something like that and it would probably be better if the community discusses the situation and comes up with an alternative that doesn't outright kill the deck. It would complicate things in the pursuit of altruism, but I think the results would pay off and make less angry players.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
But thats what I'm saying. Other than Twin, nobody had their deck killed, and one could even (well someone could, I couldnt) argue that Kiki-Mite or Kiki-Resto is still 'like Twin'.
So those FNM magic folks have lost very very very little over the last 2 years, unless they played Twin, like me.
EDIT: Essentially what I'm saying is its a non-issue, because 9 times out of 10, the deck lives. Twin is the exception.
There was no reason to believe that the Eldrazi decks would be particularly good against Twin, at least any more than it would be good against any deck. What happened here was more akin to if they had banned Splinter Twin on the same day Rending Volley got released.
Not really, a better analogue would be if they banned Deceiver Exarch or Pestermite (or an even less important card) on the same day Rending Volley got released. Again, that would support the point - not invalidate it.
Well, yes, it would support it. My point was that this case that actually would support it doesn't exist. If they banned Splinter Twin or Exarch or Pestermite or whatever else on the same day as the release of Rending Volley, that would be a good thing to point to... but it didn't happpen. The Eldrazi and Splinter Twin was not a good counterpoint because they don't have anything to do with each other.
The point is that Eldrazi's effect on the meta was not a consideration for the ban, despite the fact that it was likely to have an effect. Similarly, Push's effect on the meta was not a consideration for the gprobe ban, despite the fact that it was likely to have an effect.
But, again, there was little reason to believe the Eldrazi (no matter how powerful it was) would do anything to weaken Splinter Twin any more than the rest of the format. Fatal Push is very much a card that takes care of the decks that are allegedly problematic.
But thats what I'm saying. Other than Twin, nobody had their deck killed, and one could even (well someone could, I couldnt) argue that Kiki-Mite or Kiki-Resto is still 'like Twin'.
So those FNM magic folks have lost very very very little over the last 2 years, unless they played Twin, like me.
EDIT: Essentially what I'm saying is its a non-issue, because 9 times out of 10, the deck lives. Twin is the exception.
Not hurt severely? Pod turning into a collected company deck that sees no play is about as bad as Twin now having to slot Kiki-jikki over splinter twin.
In retrospect, it seems hard to justify the banning of Gitaxian Probe in the context of printing Fatal Push, as Fatal Push is a decent-to-great card against every single deck running Gitaxian Probe.
Definitely agreed. Given Fatal Push will likely have the same effect on the meta as they were going for with the Gitaxian Probe ban, it does seem very unusual. (Especially since Stoddard has since written about how Push was designed with Modern in mind.) I see two potential ways of squaring that, and I think they both likely exist in tandem:
It was a ban on principle, which I think is supported by the ban announcement (given the language like "doing too much for too little")
It's meant to clear the way for a potential Preordain unban, since the Gitaxian Probe ban powers down most of the decks WotC considers problematic that might get an uptick from running Preordain – basically blue aggro and UR Storm
According to the announcement, GP specifically helped decks win on turn three too often. Wizards must have conjectured that even with Push legal, GP would enable turn three wins in the same ways that it already did. They have way more data than we can ever dream of, and I don't see a good argument as to why we should assume they're lying to us.
One wonders, then, why Infect didn't receive a ban in the 2 year period after Become Immense got printed and now. Sure, it got Blossoming Defense, but the way Blossoming Defense benefitted the deck wasn't an increase in speed, but an increase in resilience. Apparently, it was okay then but not now because it was easier to thwart in the past, which made its speed acceptable, and Blossoming Defense made it hard enough to thwart that the speed became unacceptable. But Fatal Push works to reverse that trend by making Infect easier to thwart, restoring it to its previous, more acceptable level (if not going back even further).
Isn't it obvious? Because Infect didn't violate the Turn Four Rule in a bannable capacity until recently. We can even point to specific elements that would have allowed Infect to increase its kill speed: the printing of Blossoming Defense and Tron's comeback. Again, Wizards has the numbers on this and it's silly to assume you know something they don't about the deck's speed and how often it won before turn four.
It's also worth noting that new cards incoming have never stopped Wizards from acting based on the existing metagame. See: Twin ban despite Eldrazi on the horizon.
How is this relevant? The Eldrazi weren't custom-built to beat Twin.
It's relevant because it's exactly the same situation. Most pundits (well, everyone I know who plays Modern) predicted an obvious metagame shakeup with OGW (which even contained Warping Wail, a card that would definitely have helped Tron against both Twin and Bloom). Eldrazi decks were putting up results pre-TKS and pre-Smasher. Also Twin had metagame shares around 10% at that point, which is about what BGx decks have had for most of their lifespan in Modern, and nothing egregious. Despite clear shakeups coming to Modern, Wizards acted with the info they had pre-OGW release, which is how they acted with Probe.
The point is that Eldrazi's effect on the meta was not a consideration for the ban, despite the fact that it was likely to have an effect. Similarly, Push's effect on the meta was not a consideration for the gprobe ban, despite the fact that it was likely to have an effect.
But, again, there was little reason to believe the Eldrazi (no matter how powerful it was) would do anything to weaken Splinter Twin any more than the rest of the format. Fatal Push is very much a card that takes care of the decks that are allegedly problematic.
It has nothing to do with whether Eldrazi "hates out" Twin and everything to do with easily predictable metagame shifts. No, Push does not magically check Infect decks out of existence---one Top 16'd the recent Classic, despite the quadruple threat combination of low Tron presence, high BGx presence, the Probe ban, and the Push printing. Push just allows other color combinations (i.e. Esper) to occupy some of the metagame space currently taken up by other midrange decks, especially Jund. The card helps Modern, but to claim it warps the format or kills opposing decks flies in the face of both logic and the actual data we have access to.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
But thats what I'm saying. Other than Twin, nobody had their deck killed, and one could even (well someone could, I couldnt) argue that Kiki-Mite or Kiki-Resto is still 'like Twin'.
So those FNM magic folks have lost very very very little over the last 2 years, unless they played Twin, like me.
EDIT: Essentially what I'm saying is its a non-issue, because 9 times out of 10, the deck lives. Twin is the exception.
Not hurt severely? Pod turning into a collected company deck that sees no play is about as bad as Twin now having to slot Kiki-jikki over splinter twin.
Many people on this forum (and pros) were beginning to whine and call for a ban on Abzan Company. The deck really only fell out of favor with the rise of dredge (and the rise of graveyard hate like Grafdiggers Cage in response). There is no need to be overly dismissive because company isn't as powerful as pod. It is a quality deck, but toned down comparatively.
But thats what I'm saying. Other than Twin, nobody had their deck killed, and one could even (well someone could, I couldnt) argue that Kiki-Mite or Kiki-Resto is still 'like Twin'.
So those FNM magic folks have lost very very very little over the last 2 years, unless they played Twin, like me.
EDIT: Essentially what I'm saying is its a non-issue, because 9 times out of 10, the deck lives. Twin is the exception.
Not hurt severely? Pod turning into a collected company deck that sees no play is about as bad as Twin now having to slot Kiki-jikki over splinter twin.
This is what I came in to say. I know personally many Pod players who did NOT move to Company. In fact, many of them grudgingly sold their pieces from their decks at quite the discount and then never wanted to play Company at all.
Likewise with Bloom Titan. Most former Bloom Titan players I know don't even want to touch the deck now. It's like when you were taking steroids and lifting, but now you're just lifting without the "boost."
@AK - Eldrazi decks were popping up (there were Processor decks), but they still had a somewhat poor Twin matchup. Despite running Path to Exile, Dismember, and discard, Twin could easily grind you out. (I ran BW Processors until the Eldrazi menace was just better to play)
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Yes, unless we want to call Kiki-Cord a Twin replacement, Company is plenty strong and replaced the engine of Pod decks while remaining in a competitive place for some time.
Hell, last SCG even had Abzan Company in second! Kiki-Mite...hmm missing from the list.
EDIT: FCG, I would take lifting without the Juice, if I wasnt lifting with depressed tesosterone with Kiki.
But thats what I'm saying. Other than Twin, nobody had their deck killed, and one could even (well someone could, I couldnt) argue that Kiki-Mite or Kiki-Resto is still 'like Twin'.
So those FNM magic folks have lost very very very little over the last 2 years, unless they played Twin, like me.
EDIT: Essentially what I'm saying is its a non-issue, because 9 times out of 10, the deck lives. Twin is the exception.
Not hurt severely? Pod turning into a collected company deck that sees no play is about as bad as Twin now having to slot Kiki-jikki over splinter twin.
This is what I came in to say. I know personally many Pod players who did NOT move to Company. In fact, many of them grudgingly sold their pieces from their decks at quite the discount and then never wanted to play Company at all.
Likewise with Bloom Titan. Most former Bloom Titan players I know don't even want to touch the deck now. It's like when you were taking steroids and lifting, but now you're just lifting without the "boost."
@AK - Eldrazi decks were popping up (there were Processor decks), but they still had a somewhat poor Twin matchup. Despite running Path to Exile, Dismember, and discard, Twin could easily grind you out. (I ran BW Processors until the Eldrazi menace was just better to play)
This sounds like your describing people who want to play the best deck. Yes some people only play busted decks because they are busted and when they are no longer busted want nothing to do with them, just look at Eldrazi when it was busted and got a ban lots of people left the deck. Bant Eldrazi is still a powerful deck and many stuck with it and the same was true with company decks lots of people who liked Pod play Company now, but the segment of players who just want to play the most busted best deck I don't feel for them. Pod was bad for the format, as simple as that. It was to good at being the best creature deck and one of the two best combo decks at the same time. Company gets to be a great creature deck while having access to some level of the combo without it being a matter of procedure like it was for Pod.
But thats what I'm saying. Other than Twin, nobody had their deck killed, and one could even (well someone could, I couldnt) argue that Kiki-Mite or Kiki-Resto is still 'like Twin'.
So those FNM magic folks have lost very very very little over the last 2 years, unless they played Twin, like me.
EDIT: Essentially what I'm saying is its a non-issue, because 9 times out of 10, the deck lives. Twin is the exception.
Not hurt severely? Pod turning into a collected company deck that sees no play is about as bad as Twin now having to slot Kiki-jikki over splinter twin.
This is what I came in to say. I know personally many Pod players who did NOT move to Company. In fact, many of them grudgingly sold their pieces from their decks at quite the discount and then never wanted to play Company at all.
Likewise with Bloom Titan. Most former Bloom Titan players I know don't even want to touch the deck now. It's like when you were taking steroids and lifting, but now you're just lifting without the "boost."
@AK - Eldrazi decks were popping up (there were Processor decks), but they still had a somewhat poor Twin matchup. Despite running Path to Exile, Dismember, and discard, Twin could easily grind you out. (I ran BW Processors until the Eldrazi menace was just better to play)
This sounds like your describing people who want to play the best deck. Yes some people only play busted decks because they are busted and when they are no longer busted want nothing to do with them, just look at Eldrazi when it was busted and got a ban lots of people left the deck. Bant Eldrazi is still a powerful deck and many stuck with it and the same was true with company decks lots of people who liked Pod play Company now, but the segment of players who just want to play the most busted best deck I don't feel for them. Pod was bad for the format, as simple as that. It was to good at being the best creature deck and one of the two best combo decks at the same time. Company gets to be a great creature deck while having access to some level of the combo without it being a matter of procedure like it was for Pod.
Man, I just wish that wizards had given some indication that a pod kind of replacement was coming, or had waited to ban until after it had been released. I sold the deck because it looked like the only way to play a midrange deck in modern at that point was to shell out a grand for goyfs and lilianas.
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Legacy
Death and Taxes Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
I don't think "wanting to play the most busted deck" is something that should necessary be considered bad. Part of the reason I loved Amulet Bloom is simply because I loved being able to do the powerful things that the deck did, along with the intricacy to its lines of play.
Wanting to be able to do powerful things is part of the appeal of the game for many people, and not one we should look upon poorly, even though the idea that everyone should be able to do a bunch of powerful things would lead to a very insular format.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
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Kind of find it funny that I actually took the plunge finally and bought a playset of them. The trouble with her is that the second she gets unbanned she doesn't have enough printings going around at this point to keep up at her current price. Not to mention she is a yearly speculation target whenever ban announcements come about. I think the concerns with Stoneforge mystic are more about the decks she can fit into, not necessarily the new types of decks that she enables. Death and Taxes is a deck I've wanted to play for a long time and would love a modern version, but it really does need SFM to work. It's like Splinter Twin without Splinter Twin.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Definitely agreed. Given Fatal Push will likely have the same effect on the meta as they were going for with the Gitaxian Probe ban, it does seem very unusual. (Especially since Stoddard has since written about how Push was designed with Modern in mind.) I see two potential ways of squaring that, and I think they both likely exist in tandem:
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Fatal Push does not stop Gitaxian Probe being Gitaxian Probe. Gitaxian Probe can still, for ZERO mana, look at opponent's had to see if they do, or do not, have Fatal Push, and then enable all the other things possible on the turn as before.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
It's also worth noting that new cards incoming have never stopped Wizards from acting based on the existing metagame. See: Twin ban despite Eldrazi on the horizon.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
It might not stop Gitaxian Probe from being Gitaxian Probe, but it stops the Gitaxian Probe decks from doing what they want to do, which is even more useful.
If Wasteland was printed into Modern, it wouldn't have any actual effect on Ancient Stirrings (it still has the same effect), but it'd be absurd to claim that most Ancient Stirrings decks wouldn't take a big hit from that card being legal.
Except that decks that run Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt still lost to the decks that Push would help against. It doesn't matter if it isn't in your hand when Blooicide or Infect was going off.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
One wonders, then, why Infect didn't receive a ban in the 2 year period after Become Immense got printed and now. Sure, it got Blossoming Defense, but the way Blossoming Defense benefitted the deck wasn't an increase in speed, but an increase in resilience. Apparently, it was okay then but not now because it was easier to thwart in the past, which made its speed acceptable, and Blossoming Defense made it hard enough to thwart that the speed became unacceptable. But Fatal Push works to reverse that trend by making Infect easier to thwart, restoring it to its previous, more acceptable level (if not going back even further).
How is this relevant? The Eldrazi weren't custom-built to beat Twin.
Ergo, even with push coming down the pipe, WotC acted on the basis of what the meta was doing at the time, not waiting to see if a card in the pipe would change it. Makes sense - they always have cards in the pipe, and likely there are constant internal discussions about issues that they might address. If they always waited to see, they would always be waiting since they always have cards in the pipe.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
What are you talking about? The decks that ran both Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt generally had great matchups against Infect and the like. The problem was that those cards are limited to White and Red. So if you're in neither color you don't have any 1-mana answers (well, I suppose Dismember, but the life loss can be a real liability), and if you're in only one of those colors you only get one of those cards. Fatal Push gives Black decks a removal spell on par with those answers (arguably better, actually). So decks like Grixis or Abzan, previously limited to only one good 1-mana removal spell, now get two.
I agree that Gitaxian Probe shouldn't have been banned but they banned Splinter Twin after printing Warping Wail.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
But, again, the Eldrazi weren't particularly anti-Twin. Now, I doubt Wizards of the Coast anticipated (or particularly cared) about the effect that deck could have on Modern, but there were three possibilities:
1) Eldrazi would have no effect. No change for Splinter Twin.
2) Eldrazi would be a good deck. Still no change for Splinter Twin, because it doesn't seem like it's particularly geared to beat Twin.
3) Eldrazi would be the crazy powerful deck it was. Still no change for Splinter Twin, because Eldrazi oppressed everything, and wouldn't have pushed down only Twin had it been legal.
There was no reason to believe that the Eldrazi decks would be particularly good against Twin, at least any more than it would be good against any deck. What happened here was more akin to if they had banned Splinter Twin on the same day Rending Volley got released.
But again, we have a card that is good against basically every deck running Gitaxian Probe. We're not just talking about some potentially good card, we're talking about a card that's practically the anti-Infect/Zoo/Kiln Fiend.
This is a bit of a fair point. Though Warping Wail is pretty restrictive in what kind of deck it would go into.
The point is that Eldrazi's effect on the meta was not a consideration for the ban, despite the fact that it was likely to have an effect. Similarly, Push's effect on the meta was not a consideration for the gprobe ban, despite the fact that it was likely to have an effect.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
It's exactly for the reason that they may ban something that kills a deck instead of just weakening it. For a GP level it might make sense since those players should expect to move out of their favorite deck in case of a ban, but for the average player at FNM it's not easy to get out of something like that and it would probably be better if the community discusses the situation and comes up with an alternative that doesn't outright kill the deck. It would complicate things in the pursuit of altruism, but I think the results would pay off and make less angry players.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
So those FNM magic folks have lost very very very little over the last 2 years, unless they played Twin, like me.
EDIT: Essentially what I'm saying is its a non-issue, because 9 times out of 10, the deck lives. Twin is the exception.
Spirits
Well, yes, it would support it. My point was that this case that actually would support it doesn't exist. If they banned Splinter Twin or Exarch or Pestermite or whatever else on the same day as the release of Rending Volley, that would be a good thing to point to... but it didn't happpen. The Eldrazi and Splinter Twin was not a good counterpoint because they don't have anything to do with each other.
But, again, there was little reason to believe the Eldrazi (no matter how powerful it was) would do anything to weaken Splinter Twin any more than the rest of the format. Fatal Push is very much a card that takes care of the decks that are allegedly problematic.
Not hurt severely? Pod turning into a collected company deck that sees no play is about as bad as Twin now having to slot Kiki-jikki over splinter twin.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Many people on this forum (and pros) were beginning to whine and call for a ban on Abzan Company. The deck really only fell out of favor with the rise of dredge (and the rise of graveyard hate like Grafdiggers Cage in response). There is no need to be overly dismissive because company isn't as powerful as pod. It is a quality deck, but toned down comparatively.
This is what I came in to say. I know personally many Pod players who did NOT move to Company. In fact, many of them grudgingly sold their pieces from their decks at quite the discount and then never wanted to play Company at all.
Likewise with Bloom Titan. Most former Bloom Titan players I know don't even want to touch the deck now. It's like when you were taking steroids and lifting, but now you're just lifting without the "boost."
@AK - Eldrazi decks were popping up (there were Processor decks), but they still had a somewhat poor Twin matchup. Despite running Path to Exile, Dismember, and discard, Twin could easily grind you out. (I ran BW Processors until the Eldrazi menace was just better to play)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Hell, last SCG even had Abzan Company in second! Kiki-Mite...hmm missing from the list.
EDIT: FCG, I would take lifting without the Juice, if I wasnt lifting with depressed tesosterone with Kiki.
Spirits
This sounds like your describing people who want to play the best deck. Yes some people only play busted decks because they are busted and when they are no longer busted want nothing to do with them, just look at Eldrazi when it was busted and got a ban lots of people left the deck. Bant Eldrazi is still a powerful deck and many stuck with it and the same was true with company decks lots of people who liked Pod play Company now, but the segment of players who just want to play the most busted best deck I don't feel for them. Pod was bad for the format, as simple as that. It was to good at being the best creature deck and one of the two best combo decks at the same time. Company gets to be a great creature deck while having access to some level of the combo without it being a matter of procedure like it was for Pod.
Man, I just wish that wizards had given some indication that a pod kind of replacement was coming, or had waited to ban until after it had been released. I sold the deck because it looked like the only way to play a midrange deck in modern at that point was to shell out a grand for goyfs and lilianas.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
Wanting to be able to do powerful things is part of the appeal of the game for many people, and not one we should look upon poorly, even though the idea that everyone should be able to do a bunch of powerful things would lead to a very insular format.