I do not wish to devolve into He said/she said BUT you ABSOLUTELY are misrepresenting their opinion by saying that they are calling for a mono-white deck. White mages want something maindeckable that is not path and that is not too much to ask for.
Also, white is 1/5th of the colors on the color pie it is not as tho white mages are those calling for a particular archetype to be better than x tier. It is highly reasonable to ask that there is a tier 1 deck that is based in each of the 5 colors.
I went all in on that prediction this time around (picked up the set plus batterskull). I am holding them until april - if SFM doesn't come back then, I don't see a reason to believe it ever will. Now seems like the time, if there ever is one.
Why? Abzan has a tier 1 and tier 2 deck and WotC has stated they don't want to unban things that slide right into top level decks. I just wonder why so many people keep saying that they feel like it needs to be unbanned as though ever other color has some high level mono-color build and white is the only one without one.
No that is not it at all. The primary thing people are taking issue with is that there are not that many good white cards in modern. Period. Sure decks play white on the splash because they want access to sideboard cards but what these people are asking for is a reason to have a Wxx or Wx deck instead of only XXw decks in the format. Especially since push is being printed now one of the only reasons to run maindeck white (path) is being diminished in value.
Essentially every deck in modern is two or more colors outside of Merfolk I can't think of another deck that does well that doesn't splash for something some other color provides. Death and Taxes is solid Tier 2 deck that is essentially only white creatures as the primary engine of the deck. If they unbanned SFM what makes you think that people wouldn't just continue to splash white for Path and then one other card? it doesn't change much except that it slides right into a Tier 1 deck with Abzan. I think if white has a problem in format it has more to do with the segment of the color pie it occupies its a more controlling color like Blue and generally control is just not what you want to be doing in Modern, Black and Green are solidly the best colors in the format and Abzan is only going to even better with path push and lingering souls.
Sure. That is a fine position to have but don't subvert people having an honest debate by misrepresenting their opinions.
Your point about the color pie is received and agreed upon. (white is supposed to be controlling with cheap efficient creatures since modern is comprised of the best of the best the later portion is largely irrelevant. Which leaves only the controlling side that is already represented.) However, you cannot fault white mages for wishing that they could play a "white deck" (ie Wxx) in the same way black mages get to play black decks. (Jund or Abzan while being as much or possibly even more green feel very black with kill spells discard etc.)
Whether or not SFM is the correct answer to whites problems is certainly a debate worthy question, but the debate should not be whether or not white can have a tier 1 deck it should be a given.
Edit: Also the issue is not about having a mono-white deck. It is about having proactive things to do in white. The only proactive card that sees any significant play is lingering souls which is a gold card. (If it was a playable as mono-white midnight haunting would be seeing play) SFM just appears to be the low hanging fruit on this issue. If wizards printed a modern playable creature that cost W1 I think the number of people clamoring for SFM would drop considerably.
you are ignoring the fact that death and taxes exists it is proactive and is Wx deck, it just isn't Tier 1 its Tier 2.
Great article seems like a good situation for stronger removal option once a card has been put into play. I don't think I see how we get a modern playable upgrade to manaleak with the focus still having to remain on standard while hoping to boost modern strategies. It just doesn't seem logistically possible to have a counterspell in standard that is great in modern without just being manaleak light.
Super happy that this article kind of put the nails into the BBE coffin the card is broken and its nice to hear designers acknowledge it on some level.
Maybe its me, but cards that scale up like Rune Snag seem more useful than Mana Leak. Don't know how that sort of scaling could/would be implemented in current standard though.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I do not wish to devolve into He said/she said BUT you ABSOLUTELY are misrepresenting their opinion by saying that they are calling for a mono-white deck. White mages want something maindeckable that is not path and that is not too much to ask for.
Also, white is 1/5th of the colors on the color pie it is not as tho white mages are those calling for a particular archetype to be better than x tier. It is highly reasonable to ask that there is a tier 1 deck that is based in each of the 5 colors.
actually what your doing is misrepresenting what I said, I never typed the phrase "they are calling for a Mono-white deck" I never typed anything close to that I simply pointed out that Merfolk is the only high level deck that doesn't splash for something. I pointed out that a Tier 2 deck does exist which is primarily White in Death and Taxes and to say that no deck that is competitive exists that is Wxx is objectively false it is a deck with a bunch of main deckable white creatures is it not?
I would say that it is reasonable to desire that every color has a tier 1 strategy but I imagine it is likely impossible given the nature of the game.
edit: I wonder how many players remember the days when BG rocks decks sucked? Now they are in the Modern card pool the best fair strategies and the problem with every idea that every color could have a tier 1 deck is that like the design push to make BGx strategies good it tends to come at the cost of other strategies being diminished in viability. Look at Treasure Cruise as a good example of how this works in magic, the kind of cards that push U to the top did so at the invalidation of attrition based BG decks in a fair metagame something is going to be better than the other fair options.
Go back and read the original quote that I quoted. It says "as though every color has some high level mono color build and white is the only one without one."
That is why this whole chain of debate began and I am NOT misrepresenting your words. Maybe you did not mean what you said but it is your words not mine.
The greater point tho is that you are defending a position that it is acceptable that white has one deck at approx 1.5% of the meta. Is it challenging to balance a meta? Sure, But the meta needs to be balanced with 5 colors involved.
Also, keep in mind while 20% across all colors would be ideal. That is not what I (or other white mages for that matter) are asking for. We are asking for something generically at a modern power level to be able to do proactively. (Hate bears is a bad example because none of the cards are modern power level and rely on synergy to even make it to the 1.5% it currently occupies.) At this particular moment SFM appears fine and thus there are white mages calling for it to be freed. Again, I can accept debate about whether or not unbanning SFM is a healthy decision for the meta. I cannot accept that the meta cannot handle a tier 1 white deck.
There are 4 white cards in the top50 most played cards in Modern.
This is a straw man, the top 50 cards in Modern is primarily a list of Jund/Abzan and Dredge cards. Why because those are the 3 top most played decks. if you exclude Narcomemba(which no one is playing because its a great blue card but a gross enabler of dredge decks) Blue only has 3 in the top fifty but I'm still playing Grixis and it still does well.
Sure in a ideal world we would have a a 8-8-8-8-8-10 split with 10 going to colorless because that occupies eldrazi, affinity, and Tron. I just don't see how unbanning SFM doesn't just add 1 more white card to the list because it slides into Abzan which is why the white cards on the list are on there in the first place.
Go back and read the original quote that I quoted. It says "as though every color has some high level mono color build and white is the only one without one."
That is why this whole chain of debate began and I am NOT misrepresenting your words. Maybe you did not mean what you said but it is your words not mine.
The greater point tho is that you are defending a position that it is acceptable that white has one deck at approx 1.5% of the meta. Is it challenging to balance a meta? Sure, But the meta needs to be balanced with 5 colors involved.
Also, keep in mind while 20% across all colors would be ideal. That is not what I (or other white mages for that matter) are asking for. We are asking for something generically at a modern power level to be able to do proactively. (Hate bears is a bad example because none of the cards are modern power level and rely on synergy to even make it to the 1.5% it currently occupies.) At this particular moment SFM appears fine and thus there are white mages calling for it to be freed. Again, I can accept debate about whether or not unbanning SFM is a healthy decision for the meta. I cannot accept that the meta cannot handle a tier 1 white deck.
Point to me a time in which any metagame in magics history has had a truly balanced representation of every color. It simply never happens, something has to be the best and it can only do so at the exclusion of the competition. I don't play BGx decks I find them boring and the games are repetitive but the reality is those decks are the best at what they do, and if a new deck say Jeskai does it better than the metagame share for those decks will plummet and jeskai's will take the place they once held. This is a competitive game and that is the nature of competition people will always heavily gravitate towards what is winning.
I play Grixis delver which is only 1.22% of the meta.
I don't think Modern could ever have a 20% across the board metashare with anything less than banning the fetch and shock lands. Mana is too easy and too good for competitive players not to simply play good stuff midrange decks (unless you have a busted deck). Death and Taxes is a good deck, it is simply not as good as BGx decks and neither is Grixis but that is okay. It is a fundamental part of the nature of the game, it always has been and unless they water down everything to some kind of every color can do everything type format it will remain that way. Again I will point to Treasure Cruise, it is the type of Blue affect that makes blue Tier 1 and in process invalidated all of the BGx decks which I liked to be honest but its banning was fine because that isn't the type of magic most people want. White is the primary reason to be on Abzan which is a Tier 1 deck and unless WotC prints a card that invalidates that strategy that happens to be a white card I don't see it changing.
You are ignoring what I said tho. I am not asking for a 20% for every color meta. (Although in theory that would be great)
I am asking for proactive white cards (SFM? Maybe a new prints.) If that means abzan gets better...fine. If abzan is too good? They can then ban something from it just like every other deck.
I am against abzan holding white hostage in the same way I was against twin holding blue hostage.
Which it wasnt. Blue is in no better, and in fact a far worse, place now that it was a year ago.
Ban's cannot keep Jund/Abzan (which is really just BGx) down. You would need to hit like 3 cards and gut them. SFM would just auto slot into Abzan.
Twin holding blue hostage...its Wizards holding Blue hostage.
People keep saying this but testing shows that it is not true. (That SFM would slot into abzan) Abzan, especially with push in the meta, may or may not even play SFM. The only matchup it improves more than margin of error is burn, and this testing was done before you could push the germ after your opponent invested 2 full turns into the gameplay.
You are ignoring what I said tho. I am not asking for a 20% for every color meta. (Although in theory that would be great)
I am asking for proactive white cards (SFM? Maybe a new prints.) If that means abzan gets better...fine. If abzan is too good? They can then ban something from it just like every other deck.
I am against abzan holding white hostage in the same way I was against twin holding blue hostage.
Yet when I point out that proactive white based deck exists in Death and Taxes you say that it doesn't count because of some arbitrary standard you simply invented to avoid its existence because it doesn't help your claim that no such deck exists.
The reality is that BGx decks are simply the best proactive decks and if a white deck rose up in metashare it would have to be at its cost of for whatever reason BGx decks become much worse in a similar way to TCdelver decks.
The reality is that most every deck that isn't BGx has a 1.x or less share of the metagame and pointing to the metagame share as if all other types of decks are enjoying a something like 5% is disingenuous. The Tier listing will always reflect what is the most competitive decks and in competition there are winners and losers. White has a viable competitive deck, maybe it isn't the type of deck you like but it does exist and it enjoys success similar to other decks in the format not running BGx
death and taxes is full of cards that other decks will not play based on power level. It is not relevant to what I am asking for that is why I dismissed it. If it were full of modern staples the way b/g/x is it would be relevant. Sadly it is not.
However, again, I am not asking for unreasonable things. I want a modern power level 2 drop that costs w1 so that the color white can not be garbage in this format. Maybe that card is SFM maybe it is a new print.
it is coming across to me,that your arguement is, that white cannot have a good 2 drop because it will make Black and green cards in abzan better. Which is not compelling to me. If black and green cards in abzan are too good they can be banned. If it means 1/5th of the colors in modern can improve.
Which it wasnt. Blue is in no better, and in fact a far worse, place now that it was a year ago.
Ban's cannot keep Jund/Abzan (which is really just BGx) down. You would need to hit like 3 cards and gut them. SFM would just auto slot into Abzan.
Twin holding blue hostage...its Wizards holding Blue hostage.
People keep saying this but testing shows that it is not true. (That SFM would slot into abzan) Abzan, especially with push in the meta, may or may not even play SFM. The only matchup it improves more than margin of error is burn, and this testing was done before you could push the germ after your opponent invested 2 full turns into the gameplay.
This idea that you can really test for the how it would perform if it was unbanned is slightly misguided since a card on its power level could alter how multiple decks are built. It has historically been good in grindy mid-range mirrors which is why it would most likely just slide into Abzan. It was very rare for SFM to actually live after it was cast and in combination with lingering souls it would be really good at out valuing other fair decks.
Which it wasnt. Blue is in no better, and in fact a far worse, place now that it was a year ago.
Ban's cannot keep Jund/Abzan (which is really just BGx) down. You would need to hit like 3 cards and gut them. SFM would just auto slot into Abzan.
Twin holding blue hostage...its Wizards holding Blue hostage.
People keep saying this but testing shows that it is not true. (That SFM would slot into abzan) Abzan, especially with push in the meta, may or may not even play SFM. The only matchup it improves more than margin of error is burn, and this testing was done before you could push the germ after your opponent invested 2 full turns into the gameplay.
This idea that you can really test for the how it would perform if it was unbanned is slightly misguided since a card on its power level could alter how multiple decks are built. It has historically been good in grindy mid-range mirrors which is why it would most likely just slide into Abzan. It was very rare for SFM to actually live after it was cast and in combination with lingering souls it would be really good at out valuing other fair decks.
Sure. i agree with that.
However, do you really think that a 2 mana 1/2 that finds an equipment and then if it survives can tap and cheat it into play for 2 mana (of 3 mana available so 2/3rds of the turn) is too good for modern? Is that truly any better than things already going on?
In standard the best thing about this card was that standard is almost all grindy matchups. Pair that with the fact that JTMS got to be in the same deck ment that if someone went over the top of what you were trying to do (with larger creatures) you could just bounce them. All those factors meant that the threats needed to be aggressive enough to not be a severe tempo loss in being bounced by JTMS but also if you were trying to race you had to be able to beat the gideon Jura that every one was playing. I don't see those things as super relevant in the modern format.
death and taxes is full of cards that other decks will not play based on power level. It is not relevant to what I am asking for that is why I dismissed it. If it were full of modern staples the way b/g/x is it would be relevant. Sadly it is not.
However, again, I am not asking for unreasonable things. I want a modern power level 2 drop that costs w1 so that the color white can not be garbage in this format. Maybe that card is SFM maybe it is a new print.
it is coming across to me,that your arguement is, that white cannot have a good 2 drop because it will make Black and green cards in abzan better. Which is not compelling to me. If black and green cards in abzan are too good they can be banned. If it means 1/5th of the colors in modern can improve.
The problem with this is that your really asking for WotC to make Wxx the new BGx then. Death and Taxes is a good deck that occupies a similar share of the meta-game to most other decks. it is proactive and is very much in line with whites segment of the color pie and I imagine that people who like to play D&T would disagree with your assessment of the deck.
I would be all for Wxx overturning BGx as the best deck in the format but SFM in no way gives incentive to play Wxx over Abzan. It would take a slew of new cards that are on par with IoK, Thoughtsieze, LotV etc... at which point it would just have them complaining until WotC invalidates your deck with new OP'ed cards. In fairness Black has Bob which doesn't even see common play in BGx decks the 2 c.c. creatures are almost all green bob is only good if he lives which is rare. So what you really need for the deck in your imagination is powerful cheap spells oh wait they exist and Abzan plays them.
Again I think for the type of world your hoping for fetch lands need to be banned and perhaps shock lands also. Until then tri color good stuff mid-range will be the choice of competitive players and until they print a W card better than LotV and IoK/thoughtseize those decks will simply be prefered and any objectively powerful card within its ability to play will be played.
Where does he say BBE will stay banned? All I see is an acknowledgement that Cascade provides card advantage and a comparison to the Expertise mechanic while linking to BBE as an example of a card with Cascade. That doesn't touch on its un-ban-ability whatsoever.
He notes that it provides 3 things the card itself, the mana acceleration and card advantage. He said "Cards like Bloodbraid Elf would have been much more reasonable if the card came from your hand and you didn't end up gaining the mana efficiency while also being naturally up a card." the key part of the phrase is "would have been much more reasonable" this implies that it a unreasonable card.
Regardless of whether or not Stoddard said it, that's actually 2 things. If you didn't get the card itself then ipso facto there would also not be any card advantage.
The phrase "would have been much more reasonable" does not necessarily imply it's unreasonable. In fact, by the use of the words "much more" modifying the word "reasonable" we can more easily conclude that BBE in fact IS reasonable, simply not as much as if it used Expertise rather than Cascade.
death and taxes is full of cards that other decks will not play based on power level. It is not relevant to what I am asking for that is why I dismissed it. If it were full of modern staples the way b/g/x is it would be relevant. Sadly it is not.
However, again, I am not asking for unreasonable things. I want a modern power level 2 drop that costs w1 so that the color white can not be garbage in this format. Maybe that card is SFM maybe it is a new print.
it is coming across to me,that your arguement is, that white cannot have a good 2 drop because it will make Black and green cards in abzan better. Which is not compelling to me. If black and green cards in abzan are too good they can be banned. If it means 1/5th of the colors in modern can improve.
The problem with this is that your really asking for WotC to make Wxx the new BGx then. Death and Taxes is a good deck that occupies a similar share of the meta-game to most other decks. it is proactive and is very much in line with whites segment of the color pie and I imagine that people who like to play D&T would disagree with your assessment of the deck.
I would be all for Wxx overturning BGx as the best deck in the format but SFM in no way gives incentive to play Wxx over Abzan. It would take a slew of new cards that are on par with IoK, Thoughtsieze, LotV etc... at which point it would just have them complaining until WotC invalidates your deck with new OP'ed cards. In fairness Black has Bob which doesn't even see common play in BGx decks the 2 c.c. creatures are almost all green bob is only good if he lives which is rare. So what you really need for the deck in your imagination is powerful cheap spells oh wait they exist and Abzan plays them.
Again I think for the type of world your hoping for fetch lands need to be banned and perhaps shock lands also. Until then tri color good stuff mid-range will be the choice of competitive players and until they print a W card better than LotV and IoK/thoughtseize those decks will simply be prefered and any objectively powerful card within its ability to play will be played.
What makes B/G/x good is that it just gets to play a pile of great cards. D&T is not a pile of good cards it is not even a pile of playable cards outside of this deck.
no i want a proactive 2 drop for the 3000th time, and i AM NOT asking for Wxx to over turn anyone or anything lol. I just want Wxx to be a tier 1 deck. I do not care how it gets there. If that means buffing hatebears so be it. If it means creating a new archetype that is preferable. I am not asking for anything extraordinary just a playable white 2 drop.
BUT I AM NOT ASKING FOR A 20/20/20/20/20 meta!!! I only want Wx or Wxx to be a tier one alternative lol. Please understand i am not advocating anything crazy or dramatic. I just want white to be a reasonable option. I think there are powerful spells in place (path, sideboard options, and to a lesser extent but certainly notable is blessed alliance)` What i feel is lacking is a white 2 drop. Will that potentially help abzan? YES. Does that mean white should never get a good 2 drop? NO
Which it wasnt. Blue is in no better, and in fact a far worse, place now that it was a year ago.
Ban's cannot keep Jund/Abzan (which is really just BGx) down. You would need to hit like 3 cards and gut them. SFM would just auto slot into Abzan.
Twin holding blue hostage...its Wizards holding Blue hostage.
People keep saying this but testing shows that it is not true. (That SFM would slot into abzan) Abzan, especially with push in the meta, may or may not even play SFM. The only matchup it improves more than margin of error is burn, and this testing was done before you could push the germ after your opponent invested 2 full turns into the gameplay.
This idea that you can really test for the how it would perform if it was unbanned is slightly misguided since a card on its power level could alter how multiple decks are built. It has historically been good in grindy mid-range mirrors which is why it would most likely just slide into Abzan. It was very rare for SFM to actually live after it was cast and in combination with lingering souls it would be really good at out valuing other fair decks.
Sure. i agree with that.
However, do you really think that a 2 mana 1/2 that finds an equipment and then if it survives can tap and cheat it into play for 2 mana (of 3 mana available so 2/3rds of the turn) is too good for modern? Is that truly any better than things already going on?
That's the money question. Over 600 games of rigorous testing say, "nope." Given what we know of how WotC decides on unbans, I'd be Shocked if they don't factor that kind of rigorous testing into their decision. The arguments about restricting design space are a red herring since WotC has stated that the design space of "better equipment than Batterskull and Sword of X and Y" design space is off-limits regardless regardless of whether SFM is a card in Modern or not.
I expect Stoneforge Mystic to come off the list within a few years since it upholds a lot of Wizards' format pillars, but I don't actually think the "make W better" pillar is the most important. Criterion 9 is a given - smallest possible banned list. Diversity of decks increases as testing shows Abzan shrugs and goes back to business as usual, white gets the card it needs to be a viable basis for a non-GB midrange shell, and a couple of equipment not named Cranial Plating become playable. That hits Forsythe's criteria 3 (different decks than you'd see in Standard) and 6 (diverse top-tier metagame). Most importantly, though, SFM hits criterion 7 - not dominated by interactivity - because it can be easily interacted with. More easily than ever with Fatal Push killing the germ token for B at instant speed.
That last one is the biggest point in Stoneforge's favor. If aggro-combo decks stay powerful (well, not Infect because lifegain lol flying lol Blighted Agent lol), SFM is the cleanest answer since Baleful Strix to the un-interactivity problem. Ignore your opponent and risk a 4/4 blocker accompanied by an 8-point life swing per turn. Run a little interaction and you out-temp your opponent for an easy blowout since they now havea worthless Batterskull in hand or in play that they'll never be able to do anything with because your deck kills on turn 4. As solutions go, it's actually pretty elegant.
Again, without the Modern Nexus testing, I'd be a lot more hesitant. But that data set allays a lot of my skepticism. And of course like always, this all depends on how the metagame evolves post-bannings and post-Push.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Which it wasnt. Blue is in no better, and in fact a far worse, place now that it was a year ago.
Ban's cannot keep Jund/Abzan (which is really just BGx) down. You would need to hit like 3 cards and gut them. SFM would just auto slot into Abzan.
Twin holding blue hostage...its Wizards holding Blue hostage.
People keep saying this but testing shows that it is not true. (That SFM would slot into abzan) Abzan, especially with push in the meta, may or may not even play SFM. The only matchup it improves more than margin of error is burn, and this testing was done before you could push the germ after your opponent invested 2 full turns into the gameplay.
This idea that you can really test for the how it would perform if it was unbanned is slightly misguided since a card on its power level could alter how multiple decks are built. It has historically been good in grindy mid-range mirrors which is why it would most likely just slide into Abzan. It was very rare for SFM to actually live after it was cast and in combination with lingering souls it would be really good at out valuing other fair decks.
Sure. i agree with that.
However, do you really think that a 2 mana 1/2 that finds an equipment and then if it survives can tap and cheat it into play for 2 mana (of 3 mana available so 2/3rds of the turn) is too good for modern? Is that truly any better than things already going on?
In standard the best thing about this card was that standard is almost all grindy matchups. Pair that with the fact that JTMS got to be in the same deck ment that if someone went over the top of what you were trying to do (with larger creatures) you could just bounce them. All those factors meant that the threats needed to be aggressive enough to not be a severe tempo loss in being bounced by JTMS but also if you were trying to race you had to be able to beat the gideon Jura that every one was playing. I don't see those things as super relevant in the modern format.
Yes I actually think it would be good. Like I said I play Grixis and the Abzan match up is close probably 55-45 with a slight favor to Abzan. It isn't the T2 SFM that is good its the mid-game top deck slam a sword or search up a Batterskull that seems dreadful. SFM in a format with LotV and Lingering souls tokens is just a trump for top deck wars in grindy match ups in which it is already slightly favored. The same was true of it in standard as birds was the T2 play of choice since you could simply grind out a little with them until you get to a point at which you take over with SFM searching up something to slap on on of them. It is a card that requires very little to be very good in grindy match ups and grindy match ups define the fair deck match ups in the format.
I think for your fantasy Wxx deck to exist that isn't a late game control deck W needs a powerful main deckable ancillary non-creature spell on par with LotV that has WW? casting cost. If death and taxes has a problem that keeps it down it is that it relies on creatures not that its creatures are bad. BGx decks have access to a very powerful repeatable hard to interactive with utility spell and if they banned LotV those decks would likely plummet into a 1.X deck also.
I'm not opposed to such a card being printed but if your going to want a non-BGx deck to take over a share of its meta-game it needs to have some similarity in what makes it so powerful but not broken. And LotV is certainly the card that holds that deck together and a Wxx deck really needs some kind of non-creature permanent that has a reusable powerful affects and it would need to be color restrictive enough to not simply slide into Abzan.
Which it wasnt. Blue is in no better, and in fact a far worse, place now that it was a year ago.
Ban's cannot keep Jund/Abzan (which is really just BGx) down. You would need to hit like 3 cards and gut them. SFM would just auto slot into Abzan.
Twin holding blue hostage...its Wizards holding Blue hostage.
People keep saying this but testing shows that it is not true. (That SFM would slot into abzan) Abzan, especially with push in the meta, may or may not even play SFM. The only matchup it improves more than margin of error is burn, and this testing was done before you could push the germ after your opponent invested 2 full turns into the gameplay.
This idea that you can really test for the how it would perform if it was unbanned is slightly misguided since a card on its power level could alter how multiple decks are built. It has historically been good in grindy mid-range mirrors which is why it would most likely just slide into Abzan. It was very rare for SFM to actually live after it was cast and in combination with lingering souls it would be really good at out valuing other fair decks.
Sure. i agree with that.
However, do you really think that a 2 mana 1/2 that finds an equipment and then if it survives can tap and cheat it into play for 2 mana (of 3 mana available so 2/3rds of the turn) is too good for modern? Is that truly any better than things already going on?
In standard the best thing about this card was that standard is almost all grindy matchups. Pair that with the fact that JTMS got to be in the same deck ment that if someone went over the top of what you were trying to do (with larger creatures) you could just bounce them. All those factors meant that the threats needed to be aggressive enough to not be a severe tempo loss in being bounced by JTMS but also if you were trying to race you had to be able to beat the gideon Jura that every one was playing. I don't see those things as super relevant in the modern format.
Yes I actually think it would be good. Like I said I play Grixis and the Abzan match up is close probably 55-45 with a slight favor to Abzan. It isn't the T2 SFM that is good its the mid-game top deck slam a sword or search up a Batterskull that seems dreadful. SFM in a format with LotV and Lingering souls tokens is just a trump for top deck wars in grindy match ups in which it is already slightly favored. The same was true of it in standard as birds was the T2 play of choice since you could simply grind out a little with them until you get to a point at which you take over with SFM searching up something to slap on on of them. It is a card that requires very little to be very good in grindy match ups and grindy match ups define the fair deck match ups in the format.
I think for your fantasy Wxx deck to exist that isn't a late game control deck W needs a powerful main deckable ancillary non-creature spell on par with LotV that has WW? casting cost. If death and taxes has a problem that keeps it down it is that it relies on creatures not that its creatures are bad. BGx decks have access to a very powerful repeatable hard to interactive with utility spell and if they banned LotV those decks would likely plummet into a 1.X deck also.
I'm not opposed to such a card being printed but if your going to want a non-BGx deck to take over a share of its meta-game it needs to have some similarity in what makes it so powerful but not broken. And LotV is certainly the card that holds that deck together and a Wxx deck really needs some kind of non-creature permanent that has a reusable powerful affects and it would need to be color restrictive enough to not simply slide into Abzan.
I also think all that is fair. I just don't see white having an advantage in the mid to late game a bad thing. (if it even comes to that being true) I also think that what you think i want and what i actually want are VASTLY different things. I am not the one who said that Wxx should be the king of midrange. I am the one that said that I want a tier 1 Wxx deck. Now, however that arrives is fine by me i just want to be able to tap plains in my favorite format.
You are obviously being results oriented (a thing i can greatly respect) and are saying that SFM specifically provides a trump card midgame giving abzan (or whomever plays it) an advantage over those who do not. It is a thing to be concerned about. However, i am on the other side of that argument. I feel that a pre-push meta that is possible (still unlikely given the prevalence of removal in the format) but a post push meta means that decks like grixis that already are maindecking answers will actually gain % points against an opponent who is intending to try and utilize these cards.
I'm not sure why it is so hard to understand what bizzy is saying, if the card is good and white, it is going to go into the existing white decks abzan and jeskai. Time and time again this concept has been shown, new cards bolster existing strategies they don't create new ones. It's not that the other strategies are bad it's just that the old ones are better, so they will make better use of the new cards. I also heavily dislike this arguing of Wxx vs xxW, the difference between the two is so matginal it really comes down to Semantics. Abzan and bant eldrazi are both tier 1 decks that run around 10 maindeck white cards and have sideboards comprised mostly of white cards. Considering that there's about 23 lands in each, they are both about 1/4 white cards. Those two decks alone make up over 10% of the mtggoldfish meta. I understand that white doesn't play as central of a role as some would like in modern, but arguing that eldrazi and abzan arent white decks when they run white cards is just getting nowhere
Now i do have to criticize something bizzy repeated several times. Banning fetchlands would not make pros lean away from multicolored goodstuff lists. The reasoning for this is twofold, first of all most of them dont lean that way in the first place, the last few months showed way more pros on infect/dredge that on "goodstuff". Second, the mana in the format is still great without fetches. We still have checks and shocks, even getting rid of shocks we still have battlelands and pains and filters. In fact, getting rid of fetches kills the deck you keep pointing to in death and taxes, since Leonin arbiter and fetchlands is about 90% of why that deck is even at 1.5%
Which it wasnt. Blue is in no better, and in fact a far worse, place now that it was a year ago.
Ban's cannot keep Jund/Abzan (which is really just BGx) down. You would need to hit like 3 cards and gut them. SFM would just auto slot into Abzan.
Twin holding blue hostage...its Wizards holding Blue hostage.
People keep saying this but testing shows that it is not true. (That SFM would slot into abzan) Abzan, especially with push in the meta, may or may not even play SFM. The only matchup it improves more than margin of error is burn, and this testing was done before you could push the germ after your opponent invested 2 full turns into the gameplay.
This idea that you can really test for the how it would perform if it was unbanned is slightly misguided since a card on its power level could alter how multiple decks are built. It has historically been good in grindy mid-range mirrors which is why it would most likely just slide into Abzan. It was very rare for SFM to actually live after it was cast and in combination with lingering souls it would be really good at out valuing other fair decks.
Sure. i agree with that.
However, do you really think that a 2 mana 1/2 that finds an equipment and then if it survives can tap and cheat it into play for 2 mana (of 3 mana available so 2/3rds of the turn) is too good for modern? Is that truly any better than things already going on?
That's the money question. Over 600 games of rigorous testing say, "nope." Given what we know of how WotC decides on unbans, I'd be Shocked if they don't factor that kind of rigorous testing into their decision. The arguments about restricting design space are a red herring since WotC has stated that the design space of "better equipment than Batterskull and Sword of X and Y" design space is off-limits regardless regardless of whether SFM is a card in Modern or not.
I expect Stoneforge Mystic to come off the list within a few years since it upholds a lot of Wizards' format pillars, but I don't actually think the "make W better" pillar is the most important. Criterion 9 is a given - smallest possible banned list. Diversity of decks increases as testing shows Abzan shrugs and goes back to business as usual, white gets the card it needs to be a viable basis for a non-GB midrange shell, and a couple of equipment not named Cranial Plating become playable. That hits Forsythe's criteria 3 (different decks than you'd see in Standard) and 6 (diverse top-tier metagame). Most importantly, though, SFM hits criterion 7 - not dominated by interactivity - because it can be easily interacted with. More easily than ever with Fatal Push killing the germ token for B at instant speed.
That last one is the biggest point in Stoneforge's favor. If aggro-combo decks stay powerful (well, not Infect because lifegain lol flying lol Blighted Agent lol), SFM is the cleanest answer since Baleful Strix to the un-interactivity problem. Ignore your opponent and risk a 4/4 blocker accompanied by an 8-point life swing per turn. Run a little interaction and you out-temp your opponent for an easy blowout since they now havea worthless Batterskull in hand or in play that they'll never be able to do anything with because your deck kills on turn 4. As solutions go, it's actually pretty elegant.
Again, without the Modern Nexus testing, I'd be a lot more hesitant. But that data set allays a lot of my skepticism. And of course like always, this all depends on how the metagame evolves post-bannings and post-Push.
While the "testing" is interesting it is still not really a valid point of information to inform about the affect of a card on the meta-game.
A- the issue that those including myself have with it is that we are not concerned with its affects on those match ups but on the homogeneous affect it will have of the types of fair decks that can be played. Right now its BGx as a clear but not oppressive #1 but the concern is that it would stifle other fair decks from being competitive just adding another trump card for Abzan.
B- While I think that testing like this could be useful you would need to reevaluate every build and redesign so many decks that it is almost impossible to actually do.
I think that the majority of the points you made ignore the point that they don't look to unban cards that go into Tier 1 decks, which Abzan is currently.
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Also, white is 1/5th of the colors on the color pie it is not as tho white mages are those calling for a particular archetype to be better than x tier. It is highly reasonable to ask that there is a tier 1 deck that is based in each of the 5 colors.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
actually what your doing is misrepresenting what I said, I never typed the phrase "they are calling for a Mono-white deck" I never typed anything close to that I simply pointed out that Merfolk is the only high level deck that doesn't splash for something. I pointed out that a Tier 2 deck does exist which is primarily White in Death and Taxes and to say that no deck that is competitive exists that is Wxx is objectively false it is a deck with a bunch of main deckable white creatures is it not?
I would say that it is reasonable to desire that every color has a tier 1 strategy but I imagine it is likely impossible given the nature of the game.
edit: I wonder how many players remember the days when BG rocks decks sucked? Now they are in the Modern card pool the best fair strategies and the problem with every idea that every color could have a tier 1 deck is that like the design push to make BGx strategies good it tends to come at the cost of other strategies being diminished in viability. Look at Treasure Cruise as a good example of how this works in magic, the kind of cards that push U to the top did so at the invalidation of attrition based BG decks in a fair metagame something is going to be better than the other fair options.
That is why this whole chain of debate began and I am NOT misrepresenting your words. Maybe you did not mean what you said but it is your words not mine.
The greater point tho is that you are defending a position that it is acceptable that white has one deck at approx 1.5% of the meta. Is it challenging to balance a meta? Sure, But the meta needs to be balanced with 5 colors involved.
Also, keep in mind while 20% across all colors would be ideal. That is not what I (or other white mages for that matter) are asking for. We are asking for something generically at a modern power level to be able to do proactively. (Hate bears is a bad example because none of the cards are modern power level and rely on synergy to even make it to the 1.5% it currently occupies.) At this particular moment SFM appears fine and thus there are white mages calling for it to be freed. Again, I can accept debate about whether or not unbanning SFM is a healthy decision for the meta. I cannot accept that the meta cannot handle a tier 1 white deck.
This is a straw man, the top 50 cards in Modern is primarily a list of Jund/Abzan and Dredge cards. Why because those are the 3 top most played decks. if you exclude Narcomemba(which no one is playing because its a great blue card but a gross enabler of dredge decks) Blue only has 3 in the top fifty but I'm still playing Grixis and it still does well.
Sure in a ideal world we would have a a 8-8-8-8-8-10 split with 10 going to colorless because that occupies eldrazi, affinity, and Tron. I just don't see how unbanning SFM doesn't just add 1 more white card to the list because it slides into Abzan which is why the white cards on the list are on there in the first place.
Point to me a time in which any metagame in magics history has had a truly balanced representation of every color. It simply never happens, something has to be the best and it can only do so at the exclusion of the competition. I don't play BGx decks I find them boring and the games are repetitive but the reality is those decks are the best at what they do, and if a new deck say Jeskai does it better than the metagame share for those decks will plummet and jeskai's will take the place they once held. This is a competitive game and that is the nature of competition people will always heavily gravitate towards what is winning.
I play Grixis delver which is only 1.22% of the meta.
I don't think Modern could ever have a 20% across the board metashare with anything less than banning the fetch and shock lands. Mana is too easy and too good for competitive players not to simply play good stuff midrange decks (unless you have a busted deck). Death and Taxes is a good deck, it is simply not as good as BGx decks and neither is Grixis but that is okay. It is a fundamental part of the nature of the game, it always has been and unless they water down everything to some kind of every color can do everything type format it will remain that way. Again I will point to Treasure Cruise, it is the type of Blue affect that makes blue Tier 1 and in process invalidated all of the BGx decks which I liked to be honest but its banning was fine because that isn't the type of magic most people want. White is the primary reason to be on Abzan which is a Tier 1 deck and unless WotC prints a card that invalidates that strategy that happens to be a white card I don't see it changing.
I am asking for proactive white cards (SFM? Maybe a new prints.) If that means abzan gets better...fine. If abzan is too good? They can then ban something from it just like every other deck.
I am against abzan holding white hostage in the same way I was against twin holding blue hostage.
Ban's cannot keep Jund/Abzan (which is really just BGx) down. You would need to hit like 3 cards and gut them. SFM would just auto slot into Abzan.
Twin holding blue hostage...its Wizards holding Blue hostage.
Spirits
People keep saying this but testing shows that it is not true. (That SFM would slot into abzan) Abzan, especially with push in the meta, may or may not even play SFM. The only matchup it improves more than margin of error is burn, and this testing was done before you could push the germ after your opponent invested 2 full turns into the gameplay.
Spirits
Yet when I point out that proactive white based deck exists in Death and Taxes you say that it doesn't count because of some arbitrary standard you simply invented to avoid its existence because it doesn't help your claim that no such deck exists.
The reality is that BGx decks are simply the best proactive decks and if a white deck rose up in metashare it would have to be at its cost of for whatever reason BGx decks become much worse in a similar way to TCdelver decks.
The reality is that most every deck that isn't BGx has a 1.x or less share of the metagame and pointing to the metagame share as if all other types of decks are enjoying a something like 5% is disingenuous. The Tier listing will always reflect what is the most competitive decks and in competition there are winners and losers. White has a viable competitive deck, maybe it isn't the type of deck you like but it does exist and it enjoys success similar to other decks in the format not running BGx
However, again, I am not asking for unreasonable things. I want a modern power level 2 drop that costs w1 so that the color white can not be garbage in this format. Maybe that card is SFM maybe it is a new print.
it is coming across to me,that your arguement is, that white cannot have a good 2 drop because it will make Black and green cards in abzan better. Which is not compelling to me. If black and green cards in abzan are too good they can be banned. If it means 1/5th of the colors in modern can improve.
This idea that you can really test for the how it would perform if it was unbanned is slightly misguided since a card on its power level could alter how multiple decks are built. It has historically been good in grindy mid-range mirrors which is why it would most likely just slide into Abzan. It was very rare for SFM to actually live after it was cast and in combination with lingering souls it would be really good at out valuing other fair decks.
Sure. i agree with that.
However, do you really think that a 2 mana 1/2 that finds an equipment and then if it survives can tap and cheat it into play for 2 mana (of 3 mana available so 2/3rds of the turn) is too good for modern? Is that truly any better than things already going on?
In standard the best thing about this card was that standard is almost all grindy matchups. Pair that with the fact that JTMS got to be in the same deck ment that if someone went over the top of what you were trying to do (with larger creatures) you could just bounce them. All those factors meant that the threats needed to be aggressive enough to not be a severe tempo loss in being bounced by JTMS but also if you were trying to race you had to be able to beat the gideon Jura that every one was playing. I don't see those things as super relevant in the modern format.
The problem with this is that your really asking for WotC to make Wxx the new BGx then. Death and Taxes is a good deck that occupies a similar share of the meta-game to most other decks. it is proactive and is very much in line with whites segment of the color pie and I imagine that people who like to play D&T would disagree with your assessment of the deck.
I would be all for Wxx overturning BGx as the best deck in the format but SFM in no way gives incentive to play Wxx over Abzan. It would take a slew of new cards that are on par with IoK, Thoughtsieze, LotV etc... at which point it would just have them complaining until WotC invalidates your deck with new OP'ed cards. In fairness Black has Bob which doesn't even see common play in BGx decks the 2 c.c. creatures are almost all green bob is only good if he lives which is rare. So what you really need for the deck in your imagination is powerful cheap spells oh wait they exist and Abzan plays them.
Again I think for the type of world your hoping for fetch lands need to be banned and perhaps shock lands also. Until then tri color good stuff mid-range will be the choice of competitive players and until they print a W card better than LotV and IoK/thoughtseize those decks will simply be prefered and any objectively powerful card within its ability to play will be played.
The phrase "would have been much more reasonable" does not necessarily imply it's unreasonable. In fact, by the use of the words "much more" modifying the word "reasonable" we can more easily conclude that BBE in fact IS reasonable, simply not as much as if it used Expertise rather than Cascade.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
What makes B/G/x good is that it just gets to play a pile of great cards. D&T is not a pile of good cards it is not even a pile of playable cards outside of this deck.
no i want a proactive 2 drop for the 3000th time, and i AM NOT asking for Wxx to over turn anyone or anything lol. I just want Wxx to be a tier 1 deck. I do not care how it gets there. If that means buffing hatebears so be it. If it means creating a new archetype that is preferable. I am not asking for anything extraordinary just a playable white 2 drop.
BUT I AM NOT ASKING FOR A 20/20/20/20/20 meta!!! I only want Wx or Wxx to be a tier one alternative lol. Please understand i am not advocating anything crazy or dramatic. I just want white to be a reasonable option. I think there are powerful spells in place (path, sideboard options, and to a lesser extent but certainly notable is blessed alliance)` What i feel is lacking is a white 2 drop. Will that potentially help abzan? YES. Does that mean white should never get a good 2 drop? NO
That's the money question. Over 600 games of rigorous testing say, "nope." Given what we know of how WotC decides on unbans, I'd be Shocked if they don't factor that kind of rigorous testing into their decision. The arguments about restricting design space are a red herring since WotC has stated that the design space of "better equipment than Batterskull and Sword of X and Y" design space is off-limits regardless regardless of whether SFM is a card in Modern or not.
I expect Stoneforge Mystic to come off the list within a few years since it upholds a lot of Wizards' format pillars, but I don't actually think the "make W better" pillar is the most important. Criterion 9 is a given - smallest possible banned list. Diversity of decks increases as testing shows Abzan shrugs and goes back to business as usual, white gets the card it needs to be a viable basis for a non-GB midrange shell, and a couple of equipment not named Cranial Plating become playable. That hits Forsythe's criteria 3 (different decks than you'd see in Standard) and 6 (diverse top-tier metagame). Most importantly, though, SFM hits criterion 7 - not dominated by interactivity - because it can be easily interacted with. More easily than ever with Fatal Push killing the germ token for B at instant speed.
That last one is the biggest point in Stoneforge's favor. If aggro-combo decks stay powerful (well, not Infect because lifegain lol flying lol Blighted Agent lol), SFM is the cleanest answer since Baleful Strix to the un-interactivity problem. Ignore your opponent and risk a 4/4 blocker accompanied by an 8-point life swing per turn. Run a little interaction and you out-temp your opponent for an easy blowout since they now havea worthless Batterskull in hand or in play that they'll never be able to do anything with because your deck kills on turn 4. As solutions go, it's actually pretty elegant.
Again, without the Modern Nexus testing, I'd be a lot more hesitant. But that data set allays a lot of my skepticism. And of course like always, this all depends on how the metagame evolves post-bannings and post-Push.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Yes I actually think it would be good. Like I said I play Grixis and the Abzan match up is close probably 55-45 with a slight favor to Abzan. It isn't the T2 SFM that is good its the mid-game top deck slam a sword or search up a Batterskull that seems dreadful. SFM in a format with LotV and Lingering souls tokens is just a trump for top deck wars in grindy match ups in which it is already slightly favored. The same was true of it in standard as birds was the T2 play of choice since you could simply grind out a little with them until you get to a point at which you take over with SFM searching up something to slap on on of them. It is a card that requires very little to be very good in grindy match ups and grindy match ups define the fair deck match ups in the format.
I think for your fantasy Wxx deck to exist that isn't a late game control deck W needs a powerful main deckable ancillary non-creature spell on par with LotV that has WW? casting cost. If death and taxes has a problem that keeps it down it is that it relies on creatures not that its creatures are bad. BGx decks have access to a very powerful repeatable hard to interactive with utility spell and if they banned LotV those decks would likely plummet into a 1.X deck also.
I'm not opposed to such a card being printed but if your going to want a non-BGx deck to take over a share of its meta-game it needs to have some similarity in what makes it so powerful but not broken. And LotV is certainly the card that holds that deck together and a Wxx deck really needs some kind of non-creature permanent that has a reusable powerful affects and it would need to be color restrictive enough to not simply slide into Abzan.
Spirits
I also think all that is fair. I just don't see white having an advantage in the mid to late game a bad thing. (if it even comes to that being true) I also think that what you think i want and what i actually want are VASTLY different things. I am not the one who said that Wxx should be the king of midrange. I am the one that said that I want a tier 1 Wxx deck. Now, however that arrives is fine by me i just want to be able to tap plains in my favorite format.
You are obviously being results oriented (a thing i can greatly respect) and are saying that SFM specifically provides a trump card midgame giving abzan (or whomever plays it) an advantage over those who do not. It is a thing to be concerned about. However, i am on the other side of that argument. I feel that a pre-push meta that is possible (still unlikely given the prevalence of removal in the format) but a post push meta means that decks like grixis that already are maindecking answers will actually gain % points against an opponent who is intending to try and utilize these cards.
Now i do have to criticize something bizzy repeated several times. Banning fetchlands would not make pros lean away from multicolored goodstuff lists. The reasoning for this is twofold, first of all most of them dont lean that way in the first place, the last few months showed way more pros on infect/dredge that on "goodstuff". Second, the mana in the format is still great without fetches. We still have checks and shocks, even getting rid of shocks we still have battlelands and pains and filters. In fact, getting rid of fetches kills the deck you keep pointing to in death and taxes, since Leonin arbiter and fetchlands is about 90% of why that deck is even at 1.5%
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
While the "testing" is interesting it is still not really a valid point of information to inform about the affect of a card on the meta-game.
A- the issue that those including myself have with it is that we are not concerned with its affects on those match ups but on the homogeneous affect it will have of the types of fair decks that can be played. Right now its BGx as a clear but not oppressive #1 but the concern is that it would stifle other fair decks from being competitive just adding another trump card for Abzan.
B- While I think that testing like this could be useful you would need to reevaluate every build and redesign so many decks that it is almost impossible to actually do.
I think that the majority of the points you made ignore the point that they don't look to unban cards that go into Tier 1 decks, which Abzan is currently.