With our limited data I completely agree with you, although we can't take this as concretely as we would like. I truly believe NBL Modern would shape up to be more diverse than what we have now, but I also can't guarantee those statistics or the power of that comparative analysis.
Point being, I agree with you on perspective, that there is so much more potential with next to nothing on the banned list for having a diverse and amazingly powerful format, then the garbage that's been handed to us.
It's what I mostly play now, along with my playgroup, and I would say that NBL Modern is somewhat less diverse in distinct, viable deck types than the current meta in Vanilla Modern. The trade off is that you get more diversity in strategy and the consensus in my playgroup is that the fair decks definitely have the edge. It is tough to really say anything about the format conclusively though. My experience with the format is that there's a distinct power level difference between the Tier 1 decks and the lower tiers. On the Aggro end of things, you've got Elves, Clamp Affinity, and DNT as the clear Tier 1 choices. For Ramp, you've got EldraziPost as the only deck worth playing. Tempo is dominated by UBx Delver and URx Pyroclamp. Control is UBx Tezzerator prison and Jeskai Miracle Twin. Combo is Swathstorm. Midrange is Junk Pod. A great example of a clear difference is Junk Pod vs Jund. Jund is a very strong deck, you get Punishing Fires, DRS, BBE, GSZ, and Abrupt Decay, but it has a number of glaring problems when considered against the format. Number 1, it can't really have a transformative sideboard, like Junk. Number 2, Lightning Bolt is weak in NBL Modern, which is definitely a Dismember format these days. Number 3, Card Advantage is much easier to achieve in NBL Modern, which means that the topdeck wars Jund wants are much harder to keep going. Number 4, Tarmogoyf isn't able to compete against turn 2 Reality Smashers.
NBL Modern not only would be more diverse, but so much more fun. Who doesn't want to play with all these sweet, powerful cards?
Fun is subjective, I guess. I don't mind getting ham blasted game 1 by a Belcher build, but I know a few players who find that the antithesis of fun. Part of it is that I know how to sideboard against it.
Have you tested just UW Miracles? All the miracle cards are in NBL Modern. I don't see what Twin would add to the deck. You're also forgetting Dredge, Hypergenesis, Aggro Eldrazi (though they are newer). Summer Bloom might be a good deck too. I wish we had more data about the format, but from what I've read/seen UWR PyroClamp, DnT, and UB Tezz are the real decks to beat. I had a conversation with a friend about it not too long ago, and he was like "doesn't everything just kill you on turn 1?" until I pointed out Mental Misstep stops a lot of shenanigans. Fair decks definitely have the edge. Have you guys test Nix? I suspect it could be strong.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
I think that Modern occupies an important place in the format "pie". That tall thin pyramid you describe is well loved by many, and the big fat pyramid is ignored by most. I dislike how difficult it is for cards to penetrate nonrotating formats, and I too lament the lack of existence of a "fair" format, but Modern was never going to be that.
As I read your arguments, I see a hypothetical format that I think would be really cool. In such a format, a card's legality is determined by whether or not it's overall power-level contributes to degenerate deck-construction, rather than arbitrary rules like when it was printed, or what rarity it has. In such a format, the banlist would be large (which may be a problem, as nobody would be able to remember what was and wasn't legal,) but the potential for deck construction would be unprecedented. If the format was well crafted, there would be no reason that a deck like Slivers or Turbofog wouldn't be able to compete with whatever combo decks, and fast aggro decks are out there. But such a format would be difficult to cultivate: most people get a whiff of a large banlist, and run the other way. They love doing their degenerate things, and don't mind that the price is everybody else doing the same few degenerate things. Ironically, this carefully controlled format I describe is closest to casual, which is a nonformat with no balance: people play bad Elf decks with proxy Mox Emeralds in casual. My favorite format is Cube, since you can balance power level to your liking, but even there, everyone always wants to run broken cards over interactive ones. I think it's just human nature: if you know more powerful cards exist, you want to play them.
I hear your call that the sharp pyramid is too sharp, and the fat pyramid is too fat. I too wish that there were a lot more playable cards and strategies, but you won't earn many friends asking for lower power level, even if it is all for the right reasons.
This has been a discussion for some time. Some want it closer to Legacy, Others in between Standard and Legacy, and yet others closer to Standard. Some dont understand what Wotc wants from Modern. If they would look at the bans and unbans without an unbiased eye, its not hard to see. But too many just want what they want and screw everyone else.
In the end, Modern should fall squarely between Legacy and Standard until Wotc comes out and says they are done with Legacy. Even then I believe they will come out with another format.
Now that they have officially admitted what many of us have said for some time (we need more answers) I am more hopeful for the future.
Hopefully Fatal Push was the beginning of this realization with their internal teams and we won't have to wait 2+ years for design cycles to reflect this new philosophy.
Legacy, if you can afford it, is one of the most challenging, fun, and rewarding formats to play. While it does have its top tier decks, it does allow the major three archetypes to exist: aggro, control, and combo. While control currently has an edge, you can potentially play and win with any one of the three archetypes.
Counters are useful. Versatile answers can be found maindeck. One misplay can result in a loss, and players need to have multiple sequences built in to win.
Right now, Modern is an aggro-fest. Control struggles, though it is starting to get some better pieces. Combo was cast down into the sewers. The balance doesn't exist, and due to an overabundance of highly specific silver bullet answers, those versatile main deck answers don't have enough of a presence.
They could introduce a seismic shift into Modern if they started introducing new cards into Modern Masters III. Rather than reprinting what's there, give us combo pieces that can't go off before turn four. Give us Counterspell.
Most of all, test for Modern. They don't test for it now. I hate to say it, but they should bring in some "player consultants" - real deckbuilding or format experts, and allow them time to review development notes before the sets get finalized. A little forewarning could help things there. Get SaffronOlive. Get Sheridan. God help me for suggesting it, but they could even use Travis Woo.
Above all, I want to see a solid return of control and combo to the format. That, more than anything else, would even things out.
Most of all, test for Modern. They don't test for it now. I hate to say it, but they should bring in some "player consultants" - real deckbuilding or format experts, and allow them time to review development notes before the sets get finalized. A little forewarning could help things there. Get SaffronOlive. Get Sheridan. God help me for suggesting it, but they could even use Travis Woo.
Above all, I want to see a solid return of control and combo to the format. That, more than anything else, would even things out.
Travis Woo was not rehired/left Wizards, he had an internship there previously, but along with him, multiple other pro's and semi pro's left working for Wizards because of the direction they were going with development.
This has been a discussion for some time. Some want it closer to Legacy, Others in between Standard and Legacy, and yet others closer to Standard. Some dont understand what Wotc wants from Modern. If they would look at the bans and unbans without an unbiased eye, its not hard to see. But too many just want what they want and screw everyone else.
In the end, Modern should fall squarely between Legacy and Standard until Wotc comes out and says they are done with Legacy. Even then I believe they will come out with another format.
I believe its not financially profitable for Wizards to cater Modern to be anywhere close to Standard. Why would Wizards trim and trim Modern beyond belief to be at a power level where rules cannot be completely regulated, and are very subjective just to have a format where people take their Standard decks, and never leave? What's the incentive? I could play a Standard season for 2 years then never play Standard again? How does that help increase revenue? How does that even become a question for most people?
As of recently I understand the logic behind the massive bannings, but that logic simply isn't completely sound. Having Modern catered to a division of Standard and Legacy is not good for Modern, nor Standard.
Most of all, test for Modern. They don't test for it now. I hate to say it, but they should bring in some "player consultants" - real deckbuilding or format experts, and allow them time to review development notes before the sets get finalized. A little forewarning could help things there. Get SaffronOlive. Get Sheridan. God help me for suggesting it, but they could even use Travis Woo.
Above all, I want to see a solid return of control and combo to the format. That, more than anything else, would even things out.
Travis Woo was not rehired/left Wizards, he had an internship there previously, but along with him, multiple other pro's and semi pro's left working for Wizards because of the direction they were going with development.
Now that you mention it, I wonder how much the high-profile departures fed into the decision that Design and Development need to re-evaluate their course. Of course it could have been 100% just looking at sales and attendance.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Also you argument is a farce. Frontier was created because of card availability issues in Asia. Has nothing to do with power level.
The momentum driving Frontier's popularity though clearly has everything to do with a desire among players for a 'fresh start' format, of sorts.
It's also just something that came naturally with the m15 border - it crossed the minds of many people, ever since the new border was revealed.
So really Frontier's increasing popularity is a very natural progression.
Back to Modern...
...starting Modern from 8th ed+Mirrodin-on gave it inherent problems. From then until arguably Magic Origins there's a lot of R&D still 'finding itself' as it learns and settles on design consistencies.
It's a large chunk of Magic's history where the game was being balanced and seeing a lot of innovation.
Modern is a very volatile format, yet seems to be kept on a leash.
I think that's a good thing.
Modern should serve as the testing grounds for power level. It's the format where we can look at a dominant strategy or card and asks ourselves "Is this really where we want Magic to be?"
The answer for many powerful cards is "Well, this is excessive. But it we can allow it here as a measuring stick of what excessive is." Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant and Lightning Bolt come to mind.
Maybe the following list of analogies would constructive:
Limited is the streets of any particular suburb.
Standard is the everyday common urban road.
Frontier is the highway.
Modern is the autobahn/open road. (No 'limit' per say, but the vehicle must still be safe and road legal.)
Legacy is salt flats racing (Where Storm and Dredge are allowed to exist. Unreasonable dumb stuff.)
Vintage is a closed race track for experimental technology, where you race a cutting edge formula 1 Vs a toaster with a quantum jet engine Vs an absolute zero mist-dispensing military drone.
If we consider the list, then Modern is as crazy as we let things get while remaining 'street legal.'
It's probably healthiest as a well-policed format, if only for helping to keep the shape of Legacy and Frontier.
For instance, it's possible that down the line Simian Spirit Guide gets banned in Modern. That's a thought we can all entertain, even if we disagree with.
Modern is the powered format where you get to more seriously pose the question "Is this too powerful in Modern? Should this be something you can do?"
Legacy, on the other hand, is where we allow stuff like fast mana more trivially. "Ban Simian Spirit Guide? In Legacy? Nahh, c'mon."
I actually used to think it was R&D trying to find itself, but after looking into game design and the current change of CEO, I think the problem runs a bit deeper than that. The CEO shapes the company and R&D design the game to follow that vision, so the original CEO that was in before the new one had a vision of the game that looks like what we see today, with weak answers and a lot more draft fodder that is useless outside of constructed in order to keep people buying more booster boxes. It seems like that CEO was warming up to the idea of doing reprints and the like to try and solve some of the issues with the game, but stubbornly didn't want to give up the draft / constructed paradigm. People who pushed from the lower ranks to have a different game probably ended up running into problems, and looking into Glass Door that seems to be the story I'm reading up from the responses. So, in a nutshell it took an entire year of natural MTG disaster and discontent to actually get the message up through the ranks and when that didn't give results the shareholders voted for a new CEO.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Have you tested just UW Miracles? All the miracle cards are in NBL Modern. I don't see what Twin would add to the deck. You're also forgetting Dredge, Hypergenesis, Aggro Eldrazi (though they are newer). Summer Bloom might be a good deck too. I wish we had more data about the format, but from what I've read/seen UWR PyroClamp, DnT, and UB Tezz are the real decks to beat. I had a conversation with a friend about it not too long ago, and he was like "doesn't everything just kill you on turn 1?" until I pointed out Mental Misstep stops a lot of shenanigans. Fair decks definitely have the edge. Have you guys test Nix? I suspect it could be strong.
Jeskai Miracle Twin works very similarly to the way Thopterdepths did, in extended. The premise is that you can combo out against the Aggro decks and Ramp decks in the format, which Miracles has trouble with in practice given the lack of Brainstorm and FoW to put cards in your hand on top of your library or run interference (respectively), or you can lock them out of the game and win with a Batterskull. It comes down to how the meta we've developed is basically Chalice of the Void/Counterbalance vs. Abrupt Decay vs. Spellskite vs. Thoughtsieze vs. Mental Misstep. Going just Twin or just Miracles leaves you open fairly common answers in the format, but most decks only have enough of them to answer one threat or the other. You get away with running both because you get Dig, Chrome Mox, Sensei's Divining Top, and Ponder. I'd normally call Twin and UWx Miracles tier 2 control decks by themselves, along with Scapeshift and Sultai control, in the context of NBL Modern.
Frankly Mental Misstep is less of a police card and more of an Anti-Thoughtseize/Surgical card in practice, I've found. Most control decks tend toward the turn 1 Chalice on 1 or Counterbalance lock. I've tried it in Delver, and I've found it somewhat lacking compared to Disrupting Shoal, given that you're spoiled for choice in CA spells. Misstep is pure gold for decks like Elves, though. Dredge is two archetypes in NBL Modern: Combo and Aggro. Combo Dredge is kind of mediocre in practice due to it's all in nature, its complete inability to run a transformative sideboard, and fragility to hate cards- some of which are main deckable in the format anyway, just on how they interact with Delve. Aggro Dredge is closer to what we see in Vanilla Modern and it's alright. It's pretty fast, it's got good sideboard options but when compared against Clamp Affinity it can have problems with the Ubiquitous Chalice on 1, since it shuts off two out of three of their major dredge enablers and it gets wrecked by Delver, which often runs Surgical Extraction in the main to complement their targeted discard. My experience with Combo Dredge would put it at Tier 3, and Aggro Dredge at Tier 2. Eldrazi Aggro is a pretty solid tier 2 deck- it loses pretty consistently to the other aggro and combo decks of the format, but beats the midrange and control decks pretty handily.
People have always hyped up how strong Hypergenesis is. In the context of NBL Modern, I would call it trash tier. It's inconsistent at best, it folds to disruption (Chalice on 0 is a thing in NBL Modern because it shuts off Hivemind combo as well), and it can't really run interaction beyond Dismember. Compare this to Storm, the tier 1 pure combo deck which can consistently win through disruption on turn 3 by dealing 21 damage to the dome or by resolving Hivemind. The only thing going for Hypergenesis is its speed, which is comparable to Belcher- a much better deck which I'd still only put at tier 2 because it often loses to itself. Having played Hypergenesis against some of the tier 1 and 2 decks in the format, IMO it's too weak for NBL Modern. Why would you play this over Storm? I'm not really sold on the idea of Bloom Titan either. Remember, fair decks are often 1-2 turns ahead of unfair decks, thanks to Chrome Mox. Heck, Tezzerator can be upwards of 3 Turns ahead since it runs Mox Opal as well- and gets some of the best card draw printed since Alpha.
Honestly, I think that any of the tier 1 decks are strong enough to give you solid chances against any of the others- with one or two mismatches like Elves vs Storm or Eldrazipost vs Miracles. If I had to pick 3, I'd say that Eldrazipost, UB Tezzerator, and Esper Delver specifically are the best of the bunch- but you can make a case for any of the top decks as being The Deck To Beat. As much as I enjoy the format because of the fact that the decks don't tend to just lose to themselves, I get why it might not appeal to everyone. It's a format defined by prison pieces, answers, and counteranswers.
Also you argument is a farce. Frontier was created because of card availability issues in Asia. Has nothing to do with power level.
The momentum driving Frontier's popularity though clearly has everything to do with a desire among players for a 'fresh start' format, of sorts.
It's also just something that came naturally with the m15 border - it crossed the minds of many people, ever since the new border was revealed.
So really Frontier's increasing popularity is a very natural progression.
Back to Modern...
...starting Modern from 8th ed+Mirrodin-on gave it inherent problems. From then until arguably Magic Origins there's a lot of R&D still 'finding itself' as it learns and settles on design consistencies.
It's a large chunk of Magic's history where the game was being balanced and seeing a lot of innovation.
Modern is a very volatile format, yet seems to be kept on a leash.
I think that's a good thing.
Modern should serve as the testing grounds for power level. It's the format where we can look at a dominant strategy or card and asks ourselves "Is this really where we want Magic to be?"
The answer for many powerful cards is "Well, this is excessive. But it we can allow it here as a measuring stick of what excessive is." Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant and Lightning Bolt come to mind.
Maybe the following list of analogies would constructive:
Limited is the streets of any particular suburb.
Standard is the everyday common urban road.
Frontier is the highway.
Modern is the autobahn/open road. (No 'limit' per say, but the vehicle must still be safe and road legal.)
Legacy is salt flats racing (Where Storm and Dredge are allowed to exist. Unreasonable dumb stuff.)
Vintage is a closed race track for experimental technology, where you race a cutting edge formula 1 Vs a toaster with a quantum jet engine Vs an absolute zero mist-dispensing military drone.
If we consider the list, then Modern is as crazy as we let things get while remaining 'street legal.'
It's probably healthiest as a well-policed format, if only for helping to keep the shape of Legacy and Frontier.
For instance, it's possible that down the line Simian Spirit Guide gets banned in Modern. That's a thought we can all entertain, even if we disagree with.
Modern is the powered format where you get to more seriously pose the question "Is this too powerful in Modern? Should this be something you can do?"
Legacy, on the other hand, is where we allow stuff like fast mana more trivially. "Ban Simian Spirit Guide? In Legacy? Nahh, c'mon."
I actually used to think it was R&D trying to find itself, but after looking into game design and the current change of CEO, I think the problem runs a bit deeper than that. The CEO shapes the company and R&D design the game to follow that vision, so the original CEO that was in before the new one had a vision of the game that looks like what we see today, with weak answers and a lot more draft fodder that is useless outside of constructed in order to keep people buying more booster boxes. It seems like that CEO was warming up to the idea of doing reprints and the like to try and solve some of the issues with the game, but stubbornly didn't want to give up the draft / constructed paradigm. People who pushed from the lower ranks to have a different game probably ended up running into problems, and looking into Glass Door that seems to be the story I'm reading up from the responses. So, in a nutshell it took an entire year of natural MTG disaster and discontent to actually get the message up through the ranks and when that didn't give results the shareholders voted for a new CEO.
I highly doubt the CEO is into the nuts and bolts of game design...if anything this is a slap in the face to 'design by market research'.
'Players do not feel good about removal/counters/strong answers'
'OK, then lets push those creatures!'
'Wait, players NOW feel out of control!'
'OH NOES!'
This forum in particular has been talking about a lack of answers for years. We had some good cards come out of Khans Block, but thats a blip on the radar.
It has finally gotten through all right, but not because of some CEO change.
This has been a discussion for some time. Some want it closer to Legacy, Others in between Standard and Legacy, and yet others closer to Standard. Some dont understand what Wotc wants from Modern. If they would look at the bans and unbans without an unbiased eye, its not hard to see. But too many just want what they want and screw everyone else.
In the end, Modern should fall squarely between Legacy and Standard until Wotc comes out and says they are done with Legacy. Even then I believe they will come out with another format.
I believe its not financially profitable for Wizards to cater Modern to be anywhere close to Standard. Why would Wizards trim and trim Modern beyond belief to be at a power level where rules cannot be completely regulated, and are very subjective just to have a format where people take their Standard decks, and never leave? What's the incentive? I could play a Standard season for 2 years then never play Standard again? How does that help increase revenue? How does that even become a question for most people?
As of recently I understand the logic behind the massive bannings, but that logic simply isn't completely sound. Having Modern catered to a division of Standard and Legacy is not good for Modern, nor Standard.
How many new players do you think Wotc would keep if none of those Standard cards those new players spent money on are now worthless and not playable in any format?
If money was the driving force.. all Wotc would push would be draft, sealed, and Standard.
I am one that feels that Modern should fall squarely between Standard and Legacy. I think its pretty close to that at the moment.
I'm actually pretty satisfied with modern's current power level. We're in a state where goldfishy decks can be fast, but at the same time the format is slow enough that we can cast powerful 4 cmc spells like cryptic command, collected company, huntmaster, kalitas etc. I can play Knightfall and feel like I have a reasonable chance to win against anything.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
This thread will now be reopened. Remember, the Ban threads are open to let people have knee jerk reactions and vent fustration. This thread is not for that, and breaking the rules is not tolerated here. Do your best to post with thoughtfulness.
We're also having a lot of very serious discussions about hate cards and powerful answers. As you have noticed with Fatal Push, we are not totally against printing very powerful answers in Standard, but we need to up that number. The pendulum of threats versus answers has swung too far toward the threats, and that has caused problems with our metagame. Our decision to not print enough answer cards also has shown to be a real problem. Some parts of this were conscious, like pushing story cards and new card types, and some were a result of moving to two-block world and removing the core set where we traditionally put many of the answers to these kinds of cards. We learned a lot from the last three blocks on how the two-block world should work and are incorporating those ideas into future sets. Again, you won't see all the changes immediately, but we are incorporating those learnings into sets you will play with soon.
A lot of players including myself has been saying this as far back as theros. The answer vs threat count was ramping up more and more, and we've most certainly felt the weight of that since unlike standard, we dont dump our power level once a year.
I have been very mad at the bans (not the cards banned, but the fact we needed to ban so often in the first place) and I think wizards might finally be realizing using the banlist as a power cap isnt working in the long run.
Someone said this in the other thread, but for the good of competitive formats, players who are ardently against control, removal, counterspells, and hate/lock pieces (who seem to be numerous enough to factor significantly into wizard's market research) are going to have to come around, or suck it up.
While we've heard time and again, from Maro or others, that draw-go decks are toxic to the game, I'd be very interested to see one being a major player in standard pretty soon, and to make some comparisons from that to the past coco and emrakul defined standards.
While I'm certainly biased that I very much enjoy playing (with/against) draw-go decks, the things that make them good are the same things that encourage healthy, self-managing formats, and I think wizard's fear of alienating casual/new players with such decks has been causing them to push too far the other way.
On top of that, it seems like half the good spells these days are just ETB effects, half of them on flash creatures.
While theres been a bit of back and forth on bans/unbans/new prints, on modern needing new tools, and what those new tools could be, I'll admit I've been a fan of most bannings that have happened in this format, and am totally for a number more, primarily because wizards has proven they're unwilling to unban or (re)print the cards that I would like to see.
This annoucement changes this, which is good. Bans helping the format is definitely worth the personal costs to deck owners, but if theres a better way, it seems like a no brainer.
I feel that we will see a lot more Bant Eldrazi and Tron in the next few weeks after the ban takes place. I also wonder if some of the decks that prey on these decks will resurface? Burn, Affinity, and Infect are solid against these (although Infect vs. Bant Elrazi is closer).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Wizards will keep helicopter parenting this format until they realize that Modern can't be fully tamed and will eventually move ever closer to Legacy, or perhaps all their unpopular ban choices start to catch up with them.
I want to believe them that they're going to print better answers, but I'm doubtful. Heck, to get a better counter spell printed it'll probably have pay half your life and perform a perfect back flip in front of your opponent.
Someone said this in the other thread, but for the good of competitive formats, players who are ardently against control, removal, counterspells, and hate/lock pieces (who seem to be numerous enough to factor significantly into wizard's market research) are going to have to come around, or suck it up.
Actually, no they don't, and probably never will. Wizards is still under the impressive that these sorts of strategies are "feel bad" Magic and drive people away from the game. I've been to new casual play groups and casted things like Terminus for 1 white or countered a card someone has been hyping themselves up for ten turns. The looks of their faces is like I round house kicked their grandmothers in the face. So unless traditional Draw-go players can reproduce asexually like amoebas and fill out surveys I wouldn't hold my breath for them to change their design outlook.
Wizards will keep helicopter parenting this format until they realize that Modern can't be fully tamed and will eventually move ever closer to Legacy, or perhaps all their unpopular ban choices start to catch up with them.
I want to believe them that they're going to print better answers, but I'm doubtful. Heck, to get a better counter spell printed it'll probably have pay half your life and perform a perfect back flip in front of your opponent.
While i agree wizards has dropped the ball recently with opportunities to print better counterspells (counterspell get a clue, and revolt counterspell both seemed GREAT) I do feel like the message might be hitting home. We have had several rough standard season since the last truly powerful answer was printed in standard (thoughtseize in theros)
I'm extremely happy that they acknowledged that they need better answers. Hopefully that will provide us with some better answers for all colors, though they missed a revolt Prohibit, which sucks. Without better answers we will see more bans, as the formats midrange/control decks won't be able to keep up with aggro/combo/and ramp decks that keep getting better and better threats. Right now black is the only color that can really interact well on turns one and two, both with discard and spot removal. This is not okay, and not healthy. More early interaction will allow for stronger cards in the format, and even possible unbans of some of the older powerful cards like SFM, JtMS and even DRS. Allow for powerful interaction to dictate the format's speed instead of leaning on and ever growing ban list.
As far as calling for Ancient Stirrings ban, I'd say hold your horses. While aggro was hurt, we've yet to see just how badly. Infect will still be playable, as will Burn and Affinity. Lets see how well they keep Tron and Eldrazi in check before we call for a knee jerk ban out of fear. Doing so could weaken the decks more than needed, pushing them too far down the tier list to be healthy for the format.
This has been a discussion for some time. Some want it closer to Legacy, Others in between Standard and Legacy, and yet others closer to Standard. Some dont understand what Wotc wants from Modern. If they would look at the bans and unbans without an unbiased eye, its not hard to see. But too many just want what they want and screw everyone else.
In the end, Modern should fall squarely between Legacy and Standard until Wotc comes out and says they are done with Legacy. Even then I believe they will come out with another format.
I believe its not financially profitable for Wizards to cater Modern to be anywhere close to Standard. Why would Wizards trim and trim Modern beyond belief to be at a power level where rules cannot be completely regulated, and are very subjective just to have a format where people take their Standard decks, and never leave? What's the incentive? I could play a Standard season for 2 years then never play Standard again? How does that help increase revenue? How does that even become a question for most people?
As of recently I understand the logic behind the massive bannings, but that logic simply isn't completely sound. Having Modern catered to a division of Standard and Legacy is not good for Modern, nor Standard.
How many new players do you think Wotc would keep if none of those Standard cards those new players spent money on are now worthless and not playable in any format?
If money was the driving force.. all Wotc would push would be draft, sealed, and Standard.
I am one that feels that Modern should fall squarely between Standard and Legacy. I think its pretty close to that at the moment.
On your first question, I am not too confident. We've seen major changes lately, especially the increased length for set rotation.
I believe Wizards does push Standard, Sealed and Draft. From the beginning of Tournament Packs I believe those limited and Standard Environments have been their bread and butter, even on the PPTQ level.
If Standard stays interesting, they can keep a large audience on that factor alone, I fully don't believe that any new individual has the mindset when first playing to say "Hey I'm gonna play Standard for two years, then Modern" We could all hope thats what happens, but if Wizards doesn't keep that individual playing Standard Magic then they are losing money.
A format in which you can't effectively interact with a deck for 3-4 turns is not healthy. A format in which you can be non-interactive for 3-4 turns and win on the spot in not healthy. This is why right now it is very problematic that Tron, Bant Eldrazi and RG Ramp are the best decks. I don't go to tournaments to play 4 turns of solitaire and watch my opponent win on the spot without me having a real say in it. Right now there are no real answers to a turn 2 TKS, turn 3 assembled Tron etc, RG ramp just putting lands on the field. At this point it is 100% clear something must be done. There are only 3 ways to deal with this:
- You either ban/nerf these decks as well: Ancient Stirrings should go, bye Tron and Valakut.
- You unban cards to revive archetypes or strengthen existing decks to deal with non-interactive decks: DRS, Preordain, Jayce, SFM
- You print new cards that can actually deal with non-interactive decks
Banning is not an option. You can't keep banning the top dog because it is a never ending circle. If you ban A you have to nerf B then ban C etc. So the only real options are unbans and new cards. The problem with new cards is they have to pass through Standard first so their powercurve is restrained and depends on set design, flavor etc. They can't just print something that doesn't fit with the rest of the set. So in the short run unbannings is the only logical option. In the medium-long run we will start seeing new cards but not everything that is needed can be printed in the same set so we will have to be patient.
we should actually wait and see what happens with the meta before we call any decks the best decks. It seems even more crazy to mention banning decks that have not ever been the best decks without seeing them actually attain that rank. Now i recognize you said you are not currently in favor of banning them but you yourself are the one that proposed banning them as a solution.
I also recognize that you are making logical leaps to assume that since certain decks have been nerfed and with push entering the format these decks have the most to gain. I agree with all those things however what remains to be seen is HOW MUCH those decks will gain. To call a deck with 2.5% of the meta one of "the best decks" seems silly.
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Have you tested just UW Miracles? All the miracle cards are in NBL Modern. I don't see what Twin would add to the deck. You're also forgetting Dredge, Hypergenesis, Aggro Eldrazi (though they are newer). Summer Bloom might be a good deck too. I wish we had more data about the format, but from what I've read/seen UWR PyroClamp, DnT, and UB Tezz are the real decks to beat. I had a conversation with a friend about it not too long ago, and he was like "doesn't everything just kill you on turn 1?" until I pointed out Mental Misstep stops a lot of shenanigans. Fair decks definitely have the edge. Have you guys test Nix? I suspect it could be strong.
As an addendum for anyone who wants to see sorta what NBL looks like: http://southfloridamagic.com/sfm-modern-nbl/ ; https://www.moxboardinghouse.com/media/modern-no-banned-list/
As I read your arguments, I see a hypothetical format that I think would be really cool. In such a format, a card's legality is determined by whether or not it's overall power-level contributes to degenerate deck-construction, rather than arbitrary rules like when it was printed, or what rarity it has. In such a format, the banlist would be large (which may be a problem, as nobody would be able to remember what was and wasn't legal,) but the potential for deck construction would be unprecedented. If the format was well crafted, there would be no reason that a deck like Slivers or Turbofog wouldn't be able to compete with whatever combo decks, and fast aggro decks are out there. But such a format would be difficult to cultivate: most people get a whiff of a large banlist, and run the other way. They love doing their degenerate things, and don't mind that the price is everybody else doing the same few degenerate things. Ironically, this carefully controlled format I describe is closest to casual, which is a nonformat with no balance: people play bad Elf decks with proxy Mox Emeralds in casual. My favorite format is Cube, since you can balance power level to your liking, but even there, everyone always wants to run broken cards over interactive ones. I think it's just human nature: if you know more powerful cards exist, you want to play them.
I hear your call that the sharp pyramid is too sharp, and the fat pyramid is too fat. I too wish that there were a lot more playable cards and strategies, but you won't earn many friends asking for lower power level, even if it is all for the right reasons.
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In the end, Modern should fall squarely between Legacy and Standard until Wotc comes out and says they are done with Legacy. Even then I believe they will come out with another format.
Spirits
Hopefully Fatal Push was the beginning of this realization with their internal teams and we won't have to wait 2+ years for design cycles to reflect this new philosophy.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Counters are useful. Versatile answers can be found maindeck. One misplay can result in a loss, and players need to have multiple sequences built in to win.
Right now, Modern is an aggro-fest. Control struggles, though it is starting to get some better pieces. Combo was cast down into the sewers. The balance doesn't exist, and due to an overabundance of highly specific silver bullet answers, those versatile main deck answers don't have enough of a presence.
They could introduce a seismic shift into Modern if they started introducing new cards into Modern Masters III. Rather than reprinting what's there, give us combo pieces that can't go off before turn four. Give us Counterspell.
Most of all, test for Modern. They don't test for it now. I hate to say it, but they should bring in some "player consultants" - real deckbuilding or format experts, and allow them time to review development notes before the sets get finalized. A little forewarning could help things there. Get SaffronOlive. Get Sheridan. God help me for suggesting it, but they could even use Travis Woo.
Above all, I want to see a solid return of control and combo to the format. That, more than anything else, would even things out.
Travis Woo was not rehired/left Wizards, he had an internship there previously, but along with him, multiple other pro's and semi pro's left working for Wizards because of the direction they were going with development.
I believe its not financially profitable for Wizards to cater Modern to be anywhere close to Standard. Why would Wizards trim and trim Modern beyond belief to be at a power level where rules cannot be completely regulated, and are very subjective just to have a format where people take their Standard decks, and never leave? What's the incentive? I could play a Standard season for 2 years then never play Standard again? How does that help increase revenue? How does that even become a question for most people?
As of recently I understand the logic behind the massive bannings, but that logic simply isn't completely sound. Having Modern catered to a division of Standard and Legacy is not good for Modern, nor Standard.
Now that you mention it, I wonder how much the high-profile departures fed into the decision that Design and Development need to re-evaluate their course. Of course it could have been 100% just looking at sales and attendance.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I actually used to think it was R&D trying to find itself, but after looking into game design and the current change of CEO, I think the problem runs a bit deeper than that. The CEO shapes the company and R&D design the game to follow that vision, so the original CEO that was in before the new one had a vision of the game that looks like what we see today, with weak answers and a lot more draft fodder that is useless outside of constructed in order to keep people buying more booster boxes. It seems like that CEO was warming up to the idea of doing reprints and the like to try and solve some of the issues with the game, but stubbornly didn't want to give up the draft / constructed paradigm. People who pushed from the lower ranks to have a different game probably ended up running into problems, and looking into Glass Door that seems to be the story I'm reading up from the responses. So, in a nutshell it took an entire year of natural MTG disaster and discontent to actually get the message up through the ranks and when that didn't give results the shareholders voted for a new CEO.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Jeskai Miracle Twin works very similarly to the way Thopterdepths did, in extended. The premise is that you can combo out against the Aggro decks and Ramp decks in the format, which Miracles has trouble with in practice given the lack of Brainstorm and FoW to put cards in your hand on top of your library or run interference (respectively), or you can lock them out of the game and win with a Batterskull. It comes down to how the meta we've developed is basically Chalice of the Void/Counterbalance vs. Abrupt Decay vs. Spellskite vs. Thoughtsieze vs. Mental Misstep. Going just Twin or just Miracles leaves you open fairly common answers in the format, but most decks only have enough of them to answer one threat or the other. You get away with running both because you get Dig, Chrome Mox, Sensei's Divining Top, and Ponder. I'd normally call Twin and UWx Miracles tier 2 control decks by themselves, along with Scapeshift and Sultai control, in the context of NBL Modern.
Frankly Mental Misstep is less of a police card and more of an Anti-Thoughtseize/Surgical card in practice, I've found. Most control decks tend toward the turn 1 Chalice on 1 or Counterbalance lock. I've tried it in Delver, and I've found it somewhat lacking compared to Disrupting Shoal, given that you're spoiled for choice in CA spells. Misstep is pure gold for decks like Elves, though. Dredge is two archetypes in NBL Modern: Combo and Aggro. Combo Dredge is kind of mediocre in practice due to it's all in nature, its complete inability to run a transformative sideboard, and fragility to hate cards- some of which are main deckable in the format anyway, just on how they interact with Delve. Aggro Dredge is closer to what we see in Vanilla Modern and it's alright. It's pretty fast, it's got good sideboard options but when compared against Clamp Affinity it can have problems with the Ubiquitous Chalice on 1, since it shuts off two out of three of their major dredge enablers and it gets wrecked by Delver, which often runs Surgical Extraction in the main to complement their targeted discard. My experience with Combo Dredge would put it at Tier 3, and Aggro Dredge at Tier 2. Eldrazi Aggro is a pretty solid tier 2 deck- it loses pretty consistently to the other aggro and combo decks of the format, but beats the midrange and control decks pretty handily.
People have always hyped up how strong Hypergenesis is. In the context of NBL Modern, I would call it trash tier. It's inconsistent at best, it folds to disruption (Chalice on 0 is a thing in NBL Modern because it shuts off Hivemind combo as well), and it can't really run interaction beyond Dismember. Compare this to Storm, the tier 1 pure combo deck which can consistently win through disruption on turn 3 by dealing 21 damage to the dome or by resolving Hivemind. The only thing going for Hypergenesis is its speed, which is comparable to Belcher- a much better deck which I'd still only put at tier 2 because it often loses to itself. Having played Hypergenesis against some of the tier 1 and 2 decks in the format, IMO it's too weak for NBL Modern. Why would you play this over Storm? I'm not really sold on the idea of Bloom Titan either. Remember, fair decks are often 1-2 turns ahead of unfair decks, thanks to Chrome Mox. Heck, Tezzerator can be upwards of 3 Turns ahead since it runs Mox Opal as well- and gets some of the best card draw printed since Alpha.
Honestly, I think that any of the tier 1 decks are strong enough to give you solid chances against any of the others- with one or two mismatches like Elves vs Storm or Eldrazipost vs Miracles. If I had to pick 3, I'd say that Eldrazipost, UB Tezzerator, and Esper Delver specifically are the best of the bunch- but you can make a case for any of the top decks as being The Deck To Beat. As much as I enjoy the format because of the fact that the decks don't tend to just lose to themselves, I get why it might not appeal to everyone. It's a format defined by prison pieces, answers, and counteranswers.
I highly doubt the CEO is into the nuts and bolts of game design...if anything this is a slap in the face to 'design by market research'.
'Players do not feel good about removal/counters/strong answers'
'OK, then lets push those creatures!'
'Wait, players NOW feel out of control!'
'OH NOES!'
This forum in particular has been talking about a lack of answers for years. We had some good cards come out of Khans Block, but thats a blip on the radar.
It has finally gotten through all right, but not because of some CEO change.
Spirits
How many new players do you think Wotc would keep if none of those Standard cards those new players spent money on are now worthless and not playable in any format?
If money was the driving force.. all Wotc would push would be draft, sealed, and Standard.
I am one that feels that Modern should fall squarely between Standard and Legacy. I think its pretty close to that at the moment.
A lot of players including myself has been saying this as far back as theros. The answer vs threat count was ramping up more and more, and we've most certainly felt the weight of that since unlike standard, we dont dump our power level once a year.
I have been very mad at the bans (not the cards banned, but the fact we needed to ban so often in the first place) and I think wizards might finally be realizing using the banlist as a power cap isnt working in the long run.
While we've heard time and again, from Maro or others, that draw-go decks are toxic to the game, I'd be very interested to see one being a major player in standard pretty soon, and to make some comparisons from that to the past coco and emrakul defined standards.
While I'm certainly biased that I very much enjoy playing (with/against) draw-go decks, the things that make them good are the same things that encourage healthy, self-managing formats, and I think wizard's fear of alienating casual/new players with such decks has been causing them to push too far the other way.
On top of that, it seems like half the good spells these days are just ETB effects, half of them on flash creatures.
While theres been a bit of back and forth on bans/unbans/new prints, on modern needing new tools, and what those new tools could be, I'll admit I've been a fan of most bannings that have happened in this format, and am totally for a number more, primarily because wizards has proven they're unwilling to unban or (re)print the cards that I would like to see.
This annoucement changes this, which is good. Bans helping the format is definitely worth the personal costs to deck owners, but if theres a better way, it seems like a no brainer.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I want to believe them that they're going to print better answers, but I'm doubtful. Heck, to get a better counter spell printed it'll probably have pay half your life and perform a perfect back flip in front of your opponent.
Actually, no they don't, and probably never will. Wizards is still under the impressive that these sorts of strategies are "feel bad" Magic and drive people away from the game. I've been to new casual play groups and casted things like Terminus for 1 white or countered a card someone has been hyping themselves up for ten turns. The looks of their faces is like I round house kicked their grandmothers in the face. So unless traditional Draw-go players can reproduce asexually like amoebas and fill out surveys I wouldn't hold my breath for them to change their design outlook.
While i agree wizards has dropped the ball recently with opportunities to print better counterspells (counterspell get a clue, and revolt counterspell both seemed GREAT) I do feel like the message might be hitting home. We have had several rough standard season since the last truly powerful answer was printed in standard (thoughtseize in theros)
As far as calling for Ancient Stirrings ban, I'd say hold your horses. While aggro was hurt, we've yet to see just how badly. Infect will still be playable, as will Burn and Affinity. Lets see how well they keep Tron and Eldrazi in check before we call for a knee jerk ban out of fear. Doing so could weaken the decks more than needed, pushing them too far down the tier list to be healthy for the format.
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On your first question, I am not too confident. We've seen major changes lately, especially the increased length for set rotation.
I believe Wizards does push Standard, Sealed and Draft. From the beginning of Tournament Packs I believe those limited and Standard Environments have been their bread and butter, even on the PPTQ level.
If Standard stays interesting, they can keep a large audience on that factor alone, I fully don't believe that any new individual has the mindset when first playing to say "Hey I'm gonna play Standard for two years, then Modern" We could all hope thats what happens, but if Wizards doesn't keep that individual playing Standard Magic then they are losing money.
we should actually wait and see what happens with the meta before we call any decks the best decks. It seems even more crazy to mention banning decks that have not ever been the best decks without seeing them actually attain that rank. Now i recognize you said you are not currently in favor of banning them but you yourself are the one that proposed banning them as a solution.
I also recognize that you are making logical leaps to assume that since certain decks have been nerfed and with push entering the format these decks have the most to gain. I agree with all those things however what remains to be seen is HOW MUCH those decks will gain. To call a deck with 2.5% of the meta one of "the best decks" seems silly.