I think it's serious and discrediting that you're kind of calling WOTC liars about their hard facts and findings
You're also discrediting Sheridan, who had very similar numbers to WOTC's
Don't engage Bloom defenders. Just ignore anything about Bloom and stick with more relevant and interesting conversation.
I'm personally comfortable with no unbans in this update, just to see what Push accomplishes and how a (potential) Dredge ban plays out. This would also allow Wizards to make a hyped unban in April just before MM2017 released.
Re: Rhino and Push
Whoops, meant Tasigur, not Rhino. Tas is much better in Abzan than in Jund.
Wow... this kind of elitist attitude from a moderator.
I didn't realize that gave you all knowing power to discuss relevant bans and unbans. Or are people only allowed to debate banned cards if you personally grace them with your almighty decisions from atop Mount Olympus?
You have the attitude of a child.
Again, calm down. You are very close to trolling and/or flaming in this post and others. Take a breather and tone it down.
At no point did I say the topic isn't allowed. I just think there are more interesting and open topics that aren't closed books. I'm trying to steer the conversation to those exciting topics instead.
Except that's not what you said. You explicitly told them to ignore any and all conversation about the topic. As a representative of this website no less.
I get that you agree with the banning of Bloom 10000%. But using your power to silence dissension on the topic (since people are supposed to listen to the mods) is complete horse crap.
Staff are allowed to express their opinions as users, not as staff. This means they can't redtext opinions, can't use site punishments outside of the rules, can't use site powers to punish disagreeing users, etc. As users, staff members (and non-staff posters) are allowed to encourage or discourage any topic of discussion as long as they criticize arguments and do not insult other users. That is what I was doing and that is what any staff member (or user) is allowed to do. I believe that a discussion of Bloom distracts from more interesting topics, is exclusive, isn't what most people want to discuss, gets tempers running hot, and is a Wizards nonstarter. I am allowed to believe all those things, to express those beliefs, and to encourage other users to ignore Bloom-based posts to keep the thread running smoothly. I am not allowed to insult others, break forum rules, or use mod powers to promote my beliefs. Because neither this post nor other posts did that, there was no abuse of power to discuss.
Fyi, this is the last Ban Window before MM2017 comes out. It is scheduled for March, not May last I checked,meaning if they are reprinting something in it as an Unban target it has be unbanned now or after the set has been released.
Myabe its just me here, but I feel like everyone defending bloom, saying its not as fast as its made out to be, seems silly.
Sure, maybe you've played a bazillion games with it, and have only won pre turn 4 like 10% of the time, but maybe you're playing very conservatively. Maybe you don't see the same lines that the pros who started to pick up the deck saw.
Calling all of the data wrong because it doesn't fit with your own play doesn't make the data wrong.
It means theres a lot of people who are having better results than you did.
Sure, you can say the deck has insane inevitability, because it builds up resources incredibly well, but when they have enough resources to potentially win games in the first couple of turns, thats a fast combo.
Anyhow, back on topic.
I really hope something in dredge gets banned. I also really hope the deck ends up as a solid t2 contender.
The fact that the deck exists is cool, but its such a menace to the format right now.
Sure, if everyone devotes a third of their board to beating it, it doesn't win much, but I've played like stony silence max in the past to deal with the then-best deck. 5+ cards just feels too warping to me.
Even decks like infect, who usually have a good dredge matchup, pretty much always runs two or more dedicated dredge hate cards.
Before push was spoiled, I had hoped we'd see some ban/unban aimed to help blue decks more than just a dredge hit, be that ponder/preordain, stoneforge, jace, or something else.
With push, I'm much more happy to wait til April, despite me usually (sometimes selfishly) wanting larger changes. While we're likely going to have to wait and see what exact changes come from this, I feel its a big step in the right direction. With collective brutality, blessed alliance, and now push, non-red control decks have gotten a number of new answers, after what feels like nothing more than watching threats get better and better.
Thus, I think we're likely to see either:
No unbans
Dredge ban
or
no unbans
no bans
In january, with an explanation, and likely a hint at potential changes for april.
In april, I do hope we see bans/unbans if the format needs them.
All I know, was that if I was on Twin, and it was Bloom, I knew I had to be the aggressor, because if I didnt push a T4 Twin, it was over. The deck was fast, (in terms of Turns taken) to deny it is...odd.
It's not odd though, because it's not a fast combo deck.
It's a grindy deck, with an insane amount of inevitability. You felt pressure to win fast because of it's inevitability. If you gave the deck time, IT WILL go bigger than you, and you won't out resource it. Very rarely you could cheat out a fast win, but at it's core, it's a grind deck. So many of my matches went to time because of just how grindy the deck is.
Ban Summer Bloom all you want. That's not my argument. It wasn't as fast as 2 videos on youtube make everyone think it was.
That's just the thing though. Having a deck with the absolute most inevitability in the format ALSO capable of T2 or T3 kills, no matter at what frequency, is simply a deal breaker.
Like most decks/cards (especially Twin) it's not just 1 thing that gets it banned. It's a combination of lots of things, some of which can be "on the line" instead of over it.
See, I can understand this part of the ban. Being able to kill quickly (though not often) and having a strong late game may have made the deck too strong. If Wizards had come out and straight said "It wins before Turn 4 around 10-12% of the time, but it can also drag out games on multiple axises that Modern struggles to deal with", I would have fully accepted that. That makes sense why the deck needed to be slowed down.
My only issue is with how the ban was communicated, placing all of the eggs on the pre-4 win percentage which was likely exaggerated.
The story about Bloom Titan being just this grindy deck with great inevitability is just nonsense. It packed almost no interaction, and it that was really the case, it would have got straight murdered by every somewhat fast deck in the meta. Which wasn't the case. So let's put an end to this stupidity please. Anyone that played vs that deck knows what it did and how. We all know. Stop this.
I call absolute BS on this statement. You're the first poster so far to claim the deck doesn't have a solid late game. If it was a fragile deck that falls apart if it doesn't kill on Turn 3, why are there no many posters (many of which that hate the deck) claiming the opposite?
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
My problem with Dredge is not so much that it makes you sb hate but how specific that hate has to be, especially from a tempo perspective. The fact that more ubiquitous stuff like Scooze and Relic are largely too slow for the match-up speaks volumes IMO.
That's just the thing though. Having a deck with the absolute most inevitability in the format ALSO capable of T2 or T3 kills, no matter at what frequency, is simply a deal breaker.
Like most decks/cards (especially Twin) it's not just 1 thing that gets it banned. It's a combination of lots of things, some of which can be "on the line" instead of over it.
See, I can understand this part of the ban. Being able to kill quickly (though not often) and having a strong late game may have made the deck too strong. If Wizards had come out and straight said "It wins before Turn 4 around 10-12% of the time, but it can also drag out games on multiple axises that Modern struggles to deal with", I would have fully accepted that. That makes sense why the deck needed to be slowed down.
My only issue is with how the ban was communicated, placing all of the eggs on the pre-4 win percentage which was likely exaggerated.
The story about Bloom Titan being just this grindy deck with great inevitability is just nonsense. It packed almost no interaction, and it that was really the case, it would have got straight murdered by every somewhat fast deck in the meta. Which wasn't the case. So let's put an end to this stupidity please. Anyone that played vs that deck knows what it did and how. We all know. Stop this.
I call absolute BS on this statement. You're the first poster so far to claim the deck doesn't have a solid late game. If it was a fragile deck that falls apart if it doesn't kill on Turn 3, why are there no many posters (many of which that hate the deck) claiming the opposite?
I haven't claimed that and I have zero interest in whatever you want to discuss about that deck.
So why did you bother quoting me when you had no intent of actually discussing anything?
You claimed in your post that Bloom does not have a strong late game. Myself, Hazanko, RCWaspy and Gkoruou all claim the opposite. The last two advocated for the ban.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Any talk of bloom not being busted in any number of ways (resist hate, fight disruption, bs wins via hivemind, t2/3 wins, comical ramp and inevitability) is delusional. It was one of the very few slam dunk bans, and the deck actually is still around, far more than some other decks that ate a ban.
Moving on, I really hope push can saturate the field with removal. When we had UR decks in the meta we had counters and removal.
Has anyone ran numbers on how much removal is actually in the format when considering the meta vs say..pre Eldrazi winter?
It seems you have some serious reading comprehension problems:
The story about Bloom Titan being just this grindy deck with great inevitability is just nonsense.
No, I haven't claimed what you say I claimed. Now, if you really, really want to argue about that stupid busted deck that was banned time ago, please go and find someone else.
So you're just quoting me just to be passive-aggressive? If you don't want to talk about the deck, why are you quoting me about it?
The deck was capable of doing both, which probably got it banned. But the deck could grind, contrary to what you are saying.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Now I'm speaking as staff. The report inbox is blowing up right now and it's all from this thread. I understand tempers are running hot and multiple users are posting borderline flaming, trolling, spamming, and generally problematic comments. Keep things constructive, respectful, and civil. Talk about Modern issues; don't get in "who said what" exchanges. Criticize arguments; do NOT insult users.
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I'm not sure how much of an impact Fatal Push is going to have. The fact that it is currently pre-ordering for a larger price than six mythics and all but two rares is pretty darn funny though.
But is the four life difference (or in black, sometimes 2 life) over Dismember going to change the landscape? Dismember hits everything Push does except a super pumped 5/6 or greater Goyf.
I see it as a strong addition to the modern removal suite, but I don't think it's gonna alter the landscape and shouldn't factor heavily into bans or unbans.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I'm not sure how much of an impact Fatal Push is going to have. The fact that it is currently pre-ordering for a larger price than six mythics and all but two rares is pretty darn funny though.
But is the four life difference (or in black, sometimes 2 life) over Dismember going to change the landscape? Dismember hits everything Push does except a super pumped 5/6 or greater Goyf.
I see it as a strong addition to the modern removal suite, but I don't think it's gonna alter the landscape and shouldn't factor heavily into bans or unbans.
On the one hand, the four life difference is huge. You can't just throw away four life against the premier aggressive decks in Modern: Affinity, DSZ, Dredge, and Burn. That's particularly true against something like Goblin Guide or an early Signal Pest. The difference between -5/-5 and unconditional removal is also key against Infect and DSZ, where BI stops Dismember and keeps the Blighted Agent/Swiftspear around for the turn, where Steppe Lynx plus Mutagenic survives Dismember, and where Death's Shadow just doesn't die. All of these situations underscore Push's major upsids over Dismember.
On the other hand, I do think many people are overblowing just how good the card is. It's a really good removal spell but it won't fundamentally change Modern. I expect the post-Push Tier 1 and Tier 2 landscape to look pretty similar to the pre-Push one, except with different decks on top (Abzan, Grixis) and others a little lower (Jund, Infect).
I'm not sure how much of an impact Fatal Push is going to have. The fact that it is currently pre-ordering for a larger price than six mythics and all but two rares is pretty darn funny though.
But is the four life difference (or in black, sometimes 2 life) over Dismember going to change the landscape? Dismember hits everything Push does except a super pumped 5/6 or greater Goyf.
I see it as a strong addition to the modern removal suite, but I don't think it's gonna alter the landscape and shouldn't factor heavily into bans or unbans.
On the one hand, the four life difference is huge. You can't just throw away four life against the premier aggressive decks in Modern: Affinity, DSZ, Dredge, and Burn. That's particularly true against something like Goblin Guide or an early Signal Pest. The difference between -5/-5 and unconditional removal is also key against Infect and DSZ, where BI stops Dismember and keeps the Blighted Agent/Swiftspear around for the turn, where Steppe Lynx plus Mutagenic survives Dismember, and where Death's Shadow just doesn't die. All of these situations underscore Push's major upsids over Dismember.
On the other hand, I do think many people are overblowing just how good the card is. It's a really good removal spell but it won't fundamentally change Modern. I expect the post-Push Tier 1 and Tier 2 landscape to look pretty similar to the pre-Push one, except with different decks on top (Abzan, Grixis) and others a little lower (Jund, Infect).
There is no question Push is far stronger than Dismember. There a lot of matchups that Push makes a lot better for a lot of decks. But giving Jund push shouldn't be a factor on if BBE comes off (I would disagree with that unban) or whether something get banned from another deck.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
The versatility is what makes the card very good. Dismember and Path are horrible against small creatures that need answer ASAP. Goblin Guide, Noble Hierarch, Nacatl, Swiftspear, Overseer, Signal Pest, etc. 4 life and Land against nothing is a big deal. Then you do have to work for the upside of killing a Rhino, Kalitas, Resto Angel,etc.
The fact is that it kills more played cards at no cost, and it has the sweet upside of killing other big stuff too. Dismember and Path don't meet the criteria of being good against the hyper-agressive creatures, which are the most represented.
So, I posted this in the Abzan forum, I hope it's not against rules or anything to post it here, but I'm thinking Junk decks could look something like this. I'm theorizing about what Junk could look like with the release of Push
This deck is incredibly low to the ground, lower than Jund, ignoring Tasigur and Bob's nobo combo. Tasigur is almost a Goyf 5 and 6 immune to Push. It also only has 7 cards that cost 3 cmc, and another 2 with Tasigur, that is a low to the ground cost that is only expensive in terms of Dark Confidant triggers.
I see some people cutting Collective Brutality, but I think that's the wrong move.
There could be some 3x Bob/3x Flayer instead, if people fancy it, or reverse Flayer as 4x and Bob as 2, if Tasigur worries them
I feel like this is a really good shell to operate off of, the deck honestly won't need to sweat about only having 3 mana, outside of it being a very late game or land destruction
I know players get finicky with the 3/3/3 fetchland configuration, along with cutting the 2nd Tomb, but I've honestly almost never needed a second copy, and the mana has been incredibly smooth, outside of being mana-starved
You could change the mana a little to your liking, if you guys feel the fetches are off, and adding a 2nd Overgrown Tomb
I'm a little surprised how much lower to the ground this deck feels from 1 card being released, it's about the same as Jund's now, making Bob so much better
I think unfortunately Siege Rhino is going to be out, push is incredibly harmful towards him
If you feel super pressured by swarm aggro decks, you could cut the 2x flayers and add more removal, with some combination of path/pulse/decay
If dredge is still dominant, you could cut 1x Tasigur for the Anafenza
I don't think the noble hierarch builds will be the way to go once Fatal Push is legal in modern.
I'm posting this mainly because I feel like this may be what the new, top fair deck in the format could look like. Grixis could show up out of nowhere and become THE midrange deck, but I'm not counting on it just yet. It is the value-king of fair decks in modern, though
Junk is creeping up in meta-shares on MTGO, I really think Jund's going to be the less played GBx (but still tier1)
This only means that Tron is going to become a menace again and probably hit tier 1 again.
Infect is probably heading towards tier 2, but I don't think it'll stay there for too long
If Abzan does indeed rise (very likely), I expect Grixis to be put in a tough spot. It just has no way of dealing with Lingering Souls outside Izzet Staticaster – which it then needs to be able to protect from Path and Push – or I guess Surgical Extraction. Removal, counters, discard, and even boardwipes don't work well because of the flashback. And if Jund's numbers drop, it'll lose an (I think) favorable matchup.
I wonder if this is the reason behind the Surgical buyout. Probably not, since it hit Ravenous Trap too.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Electrolyze and remand are both good answers to lingering souls, in addition to anger/damnation/ee that grixis often plays.
Souls is good against grixis, but not as good as it is against jund or the like.
Grixis is more capable of handling it than jund though, for sure. I think if Grixis has to, it can configure it's 75 and not be that bothered by souls. I think jund's going to have to make the most changes. Kalitas is just flat out worse now.
Electrolyze (and SB Staticaster) are both decent answers, but wipes IMO are less so as a savvy player will just ride the front half of the Souls to bait removal. That's been my experience at any rate. Also agreed with the above on Remand being a good answer but not a great card in Grixis generally.
Interestingly, a discard- and permission-heavy Grixis seems to be better equipped than most Midrange to handle more Tron/Eldrazi/whatever. Access to black discard, blue cantrips, Terminate, permission, and Cryptic/Snapcaster/K-Command/Fulminator chains gives the combination more tools than Jund or Abzan (IMO) to combat go-large decks. Esper may be even more so, adding Path, Souls, and RIP/Stony sideboard tech. And it's full of threats that don't care about Push or Bolt.
Also agreed on Kalitas. I was this close to trying to grad into two as alternate wincons. Seems a lot less enticing now, though.
You can bet that "That time Wizards unbanned GGT and then had to ban it again a couple years later" would be a stain on their image and the format, whereas "That time Wizards unbanned GGT and then printed Amalgam/Reuinion, which proved to be too much and had to be banned" doesn't have quite the same punch to it.
IMO, at any rate.
I think they're both bad, because they were both printed so recently that banning any of these three cards shows that WotC is a little trigger-happy with the bans. The only real argument I've heard is the one about pushing other GY decks out of the metagame, and that's not really a think you can say after looking at less than a year of tournaments. There's still plenty of time for people to play less Dredge in response to hate, for people to play less hate, for people to play more Abzan CoCo or whatever (I too think Grishoalbrand is a bad example because it's just bad anyway); I don't see how you can cite people playing a deck less over so short of a period as that deck getting edged out... nothing is permanent, a lot of things have changed over the past year, and a new set and more time to brew will lead to more metagame shifts.
If similar complains still exist later this year or next year, okay, there's a meta-game warping discussion to be had, but the deck as a Tier 1 animal is still in its infancy. Banning anything now just looks jumpy.
Electrolyze and Remand both "answer" LS on "parity," since they both deal with half the LS card and then replace themselves, at the same CMC or lower than LS, but both still leave 2 Souls tokens behind. They're not the worst things but certainly not as good as you'd want.
I could also see WOTC being cheeky and unbanning a card with basically a spoiler review on modern masters
Staff are allowed to express their opinions as users, not as staff. This means they can't redtext opinions, can't use site punishments outside of the rules, can't use site powers to punish disagreeing users, etc. As users, staff members (and non-staff posters) are allowed to encourage or discourage any topic of discussion as long as they criticize arguments and do not insult other users. That is what I was doing and that is what any staff member (or user) is allowed to do. I believe that a discussion of Bloom distracts from more interesting topics, is exclusive, isn't what most people want to discuss, gets tempers running hot, and is a Wizards nonstarter. I am allowed to believe all those things, to express those beliefs, and to encourage other users to ignore Bloom-based posts to keep the thread running smoothly. I am not allowed to insult others, break forum rules, or use mod powers to promote my beliefs. Because neither this post nor other posts did that, there was no abuse of power to discuss.
Sure, maybe you've played a bazillion games with it, and have only won pre turn 4 like 10% of the time, but maybe you're playing very conservatively. Maybe you don't see the same lines that the pros who started to pick up the deck saw.
Calling all of the data wrong because it doesn't fit with your own play doesn't make the data wrong.
It means theres a lot of people who are having better results than you did.
Sure, you can say the deck has insane inevitability, because it builds up resources incredibly well, but when they have enough resources to potentially win games in the first couple of turns, thats a fast combo.
Anyhow, back on topic.
I really hope something in dredge gets banned. I also really hope the deck ends up as a solid t2 contender.
The fact that the deck exists is cool, but its such a menace to the format right now.
Sure, if everyone devotes a third of their board to beating it, it doesn't win much, but I've played like stony silence max in the past to deal with the then-best deck. 5+ cards just feels too warping to me.
Even decks like infect, who usually have a good dredge matchup, pretty much always runs two or more dedicated dredge hate cards.
Before push was spoiled, I had hoped we'd see some ban/unban aimed to help blue decks more than just a dredge hit, be that ponder/preordain, stoneforge, jace, or something else.
With push, I'm much more happy to wait til April, despite me usually (sometimes selfishly) wanting larger changes. While we're likely going to have to wait and see what exact changes come from this, I feel its a big step in the right direction. With collective brutality, blessed alliance, and now push, non-red control decks have gotten a number of new answers, after what feels like nothing more than watching threats get better and better.
Thus, I think we're likely to see either:
No unbans
Dredge ban
or
no unbans
no bans
In january, with an explanation, and likely a hint at potential changes for april.
In april, I do hope we see bans/unbans if the format needs them.
I call absolute BS on this statement. You're the first poster so far to claim the deck doesn't have a solid late game. If it was a fragile deck that falls apart if it doesn't kill on Turn 3, why are there no many posters (many of which that hate the deck) claiming the opposite?
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
So why did you bother quoting me when you had no intent of actually discussing anything?
You claimed in your post that Bloom does not have a strong late game. Myself, Hazanko, RCWaspy and Gkoruou all claim the opposite. The last two advocated for the ban.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Any talk of bloom not being busted in any number of ways (resist hate, fight disruption, bs wins via hivemind, t2/3 wins, comical ramp and inevitability) is delusional. It was one of the very few slam dunk bans, and the deck actually is still around, far more than some other decks that ate a ban.
Moving on, I really hope push can saturate the field with removal. When we had UR decks in the meta we had counters and removal.
Has anyone ran numbers on how much removal is actually in the format when considering the meta vs say..pre Eldrazi winter?
Spirits
So you're just quoting me just to be passive-aggressive? If you don't want to talk about the deck, why are you quoting me about it?
The deck was capable of doing both, which probably got it banned. But the deck could grind, contrary to what you are saying.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
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I'm not sure how much of an impact Fatal Push is going to have. The fact that it is currently pre-ordering for a larger price than six mythics and all but two rares is pretty darn funny though.
But is the four life difference (or in black, sometimes 2 life) over Dismember going to change the landscape? Dismember hits everything Push does except a super pumped 5/6 or greater Goyf.
I see it as a strong addition to the modern removal suite, but I don't think it's gonna alter the landscape and shouldn't factor heavily into bans or unbans.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
On the one hand, the four life difference is huge. You can't just throw away four life against the premier aggressive decks in Modern: Affinity, DSZ, Dredge, and Burn. That's particularly true against something like Goblin Guide or an early Signal Pest. The difference between -5/-5 and unconditional removal is also key against Infect and DSZ, where BI stops Dismember and keeps the Blighted Agent/Swiftspear around for the turn, where Steppe Lynx plus Mutagenic survives Dismember, and where Death's Shadow just doesn't die. All of these situations underscore Push's major upsids over Dismember.
On the other hand, I do think many people are overblowing just how good the card is. It's a really good removal spell but it won't fundamentally change Modern. I expect the post-Push Tier 1 and Tier 2 landscape to look pretty similar to the pre-Push one, except with different decks on top (Abzan, Grixis) and others a little lower (Jund, Infect).
There is no question Push is far stronger than Dismember. There a lot of matchups that Push makes a lot better for a lot of decks. But giving Jund push shouldn't be a factor on if BBE comes off (I would disagree with that unban) or whether something get banned from another deck.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
The fact is that it kills more played cards at no cost, and it has the sweet upside of killing other big stuff too. Dismember and Path don't meet the criteria of being good against the hyper-agressive creatures, which are the most represented.
I think this card will be played a lot in Modern.
I'm thinking of this as a possible build
4x Dark Confidant
2x Grim Flayer
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Spells
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
4x Fatal Push
3x Path to Exile
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Collective Brutality
4x Lingering Souls
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Blooming Marsh
1x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
3x Marsh Flats
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
3x Shambling Vent
2x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
This deck is incredibly low to the ground, lower than Jund, ignoring Tasigur and Bob's nobo combo. Tasigur is almost a Goyf 5 and 6 immune to Push. It also only has 7 cards that cost 3 cmc, and another 2 with Tasigur, that is a low to the ground cost that is only expensive in terms of Dark Confidant triggers.
I see some people cutting Collective Brutality, but I think that's the wrong move.
There could be some 3x Bob/3x Flayer instead, if people fancy it, or reverse Flayer as 4x and Bob as 2, if Tasigur worries them
I feel like this is a really good shell to operate off of, the deck honestly won't need to sweat about only having 3 mana, outside of it being a very late game or land destruction
I know players get finicky with the 3/3/3 fetchland configuration, along with cutting the 2nd Tomb, but I've honestly almost never needed a second copy, and the mana has been incredibly smooth, outside of being mana-starved
You could change the mana a little to your liking, if you guys feel the fetches are off, and adding a 2nd Overgrown Tomb
I'm a little surprised how much lower to the ground this deck feels from 1 card being released, it's about the same as Jund's now, making Bob so much better
I think unfortunately Siege Rhino is going to be out, push is incredibly harmful towards him
If you feel super pressured by swarm aggro decks, you could cut the 2x flayers and add more removal, with some combination of path/pulse/decay
If dredge is still dominant, you could cut 1x Tasigur for the Anafenza
I don't think the noble hierarch builds will be the way to go once Fatal Push is legal in modern.
I'm posting this mainly because I feel like this may be what the new, top fair deck in the format could look like. Grixis could show up out of nowhere and become THE midrange deck, but I'm not counting on it just yet. It is the value-king of fair decks in modern, though
Junk is creeping up in meta-shares on MTGO, I really think Jund's going to be the less played GBx (but still tier1)
This only means that Tron is going to become a menace again and probably hit tier 1 again.
Infect is probably heading towards tier 2, but I don't think it'll stay there for too long
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Tron's plan is to lay down a hard to deal with threat and crush your morale and spirit
Junk's not going to replace jund, it's just going to be more popular. Junk spent the past year and a half being a 1.5 tier deck
I wonder if this is the reason behind the Surgical buyout. Probably not, since it hit Ravenous Trap too.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Grixis could just surgical extract the souls, it would hurt
If dredge receives no ban, and Grixis becomes tier 1, I feel like
4x Leyline of the Void would be good to run, it hits 2 tier 1 decks and effects a bunch of tier 2 and tier 3 decks in the process
Souls is good against grixis, but not as good as it is against jund or the like.
Electrolyze is very underwhelming
Damnation and anger certainly work
Grixis is more capable of handling it than jund though, for sure. I think if Grixis has to, it can configure it's 75 and not be that bothered by souls. I think jund's going to have to make the most changes. Kalitas is just flat out worse now.
Interestingly, a discard- and permission-heavy Grixis seems to be better equipped than most Midrange to handle more Tron/Eldrazi/whatever. Access to black discard, blue cantrips, Terminate, permission, and Cryptic/Snapcaster/K-Command/Fulminator chains gives the combination more tools than Jund or Abzan (IMO) to combat go-large decks. Esper may be even more so, adding Path, Souls, and RIP/Stony sideboard tech. And it's full of threats that don't care about Push or Bolt.
Also agreed on Kalitas. I was this close to trying to grad into two as alternate wincons. Seems a lot less enticing now, though.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I think they're both bad, because they were both printed so recently that banning any of these three cards shows that WotC is a little trigger-happy with the bans. The only real argument I've heard is the one about pushing other GY decks out of the metagame, and that's not really a think you can say after looking at less than a year of tournaments. There's still plenty of time for people to play less Dredge in response to hate, for people to play less hate, for people to play more Abzan CoCo or whatever (I too think Grishoalbrand is a bad example because it's just bad anyway); I don't see how you can cite people playing a deck less over so short of a period as that deck getting edged out... nothing is permanent, a lot of things have changed over the past year, and a new set and more time to brew will lead to more metagame shifts.
If similar complains still exist later this year or next year, okay, there's a meta-game warping discussion to be had, but the deck as a Tier 1 animal is still in its infancy. Banning anything now just looks jumpy.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero