Nah, unbanning GGT was 100% the right choice and to be honest should have been unbanned years beforehand. The bad idea was printing Prized Amalgam and Cathartic Reunion.
Wizards is always going to print cards like Prized Amalgam and Cathartic Reunion.
The Dredge mechanic always has, and always will be the problem. It's the engine that makes cards like Amalgam and Reunion look so busted.
Corey proving if you are going to play blue you actually should be counterspell light as I have been advocating for some time.
Yep. If I'm not mistaken, his last Grixis Control that he played at a GP was 13-0 (with 4 SCM and 4 Kologhan's Command) had 0 counterspell. This one at least has 2 Countersquall and 4 Cryptic Command.
I normally don't enjoy Midrange decks much, but that deck was pretty fun to play (4 SCM and 4 K Command). It's literally stupid what you can do with those cards. I'm guessing that this deck also has that "fun factor" to go with a strong metagamed list. Corey is the man. (I will always remember him as the only person who beat my Painter deck with RUG Delver. )
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Right, I agree. It also now has access to basically an unending amount of pump with protection. I'm not even arguing why is it great, or is it bad or unhealthy, just that people are obsessed with talking about how dredge was the worst thing to happen to modern, look at whats happening, meanwhile infect is taking the top spot of the meta share and it seems like everyone is brushing it off.
1. Give the meta time to deal with the meta. We are litterally watching a blue control deck and a blue midrange decks at the top tables. I have a hard time believing the archtype is dead watching 2 dudes with only one loss between them, and 25 wins.
2. Maybe talk about how X archtype needs to be powered up, rather than "this deck is doing well, ban please wizards." They do infact listen to gamer feedback... give them the right kind, please. I really am tired of current best deck being banned every quarter.
Nah, unbanning GGT was 100% the right choice and to be honest should have been unbanned years beforehand. The bad idea was printing Prized Amalgam and Cathartic Reunion.
Wizards is always going to print cards like Prized Amalgam and Cathartic Reunion.
The Dredge mechanic always has, and always will be the problem. It's the engine that makes cards like Amalgam and Reunion look so busted.
They were always going to print cards like Cathartic Reunion, maybe. Cards that combine drawing with discarding isn't something new. But the last time they really printed something like Prized Amalgam was Ichorid back in Torment.
At any rate, something being banned because they might one day print something that would break it is absurd. Cards should be banned because they are overpowered in the present, and GGT was completely innocuous in Modern until this year. I strongly support the unbanning of Golgari Grave-Troll at the time it was unbanned.
Exactly. And for this reason, I don't think Golgari Grave-Troll should be up for consideration (if anything at all).
Fact or Fiction - Burkhart's Grixis is a Control deck. I think Marshall's got Huey this time. The deck is a Midrange deck, although I understand what Huey is saying - it's as close to a Control deck as Modern has, outside of Lantern.
I think Golgari Grave-Troll should be up for a banning conversation. I find it difficult to blame Cathartic Reunion because we're going to start seeing a lot of red looting like this, it seems red gets a card every set and it's not reasonable to ban them all. It's also something they want red to do so we can't just remove it from reds color pie.
Prized Amalgam is a ridiculous card, but Dredge is just the enabler for it, someone would built it with Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, and Narcomoeba even if it wasn't in Dredge. It's the actual dredge cards that need to go.
Nah, unbanning GGT was 100% the right choice and to be honest should have been unbanned years beforehand. The bad idea was printing Prized Amalgam and Cathartic Reunion.
Wizards is always going to print cards like Prized Amalgam and Cathartic Reunion.
The Dredge mechanic always has, and always will be the problem. It's the engine that makes cards like Amalgam and Reunion look so busted.
Exactly. It always amazes me how people so drastically underestimate the cards that "do the work behind the scenes." Reunion and Amalgam are the sexy cards, both because of how they appear to effect the game and because they're the new kids on the block. But GGT is the real culprit here, and is the engine card. The engine cards are always the problem cards.
So on a note unrelated to most of the discussion, I saw some people say this is the last Grand Prix that Professional Event Services is handling. Anyone know why they're stopping, or what they're going to be doing (if anything) afterwards?
At any rate, something being banned because they might one day print something that would break it is absurd. Cards should be banned because they are overpowered in the present, and GGT was completely innocuous in Modern until this year. I strongly support the unbanning of Golgari Grave-Troll at the time it was unbanned.
GGT did nothing for like 1.25 years after it was unbanned. It wasn't until Neonate and Amalgam that it became viable.
Except Dredge was already a proven offender in Modern. That's why Dread Return is banned and has been since the format's inception.
If we are going to have to keep banning every card that piggybacks off of Dredge, you're much better off just killing the engine of the deck completely to save everyone the massive headache.
So on a note unrelated to most of the discussion, I saw some people say this is the last Grand Prix that Professional Event Services is handling. Anyone know why they're stopping, or what they're going to be doing (if anything) afterwards?
They seem to be going out of business. It appears to be a tough time to be a TO, SCG is cutting back significantly and PES is done.
So on a note unrelated to most of the discussion, I saw some people say this is the last Grand Prix that Professional Event Services is handling. Anyone know why they're stopping, or what they're going to be doing (if anything) afterwards?
Do you work in AV?
My guess being that used to be my job before I went full time into animation is that Wizards is likely going to a gig by gig handled deal, thus PES would have to place bids for each event, and likely PSAV will under cut them, and they might end up still going with PES, but at a reduced price.
I hope PSAV doesnt end up gettingt these gigs. That would be aweful. I used to work for them, they are THE mc donalds of the AV world.
So on a note unrelated to most of the discussion, I saw some people say this is the last Grand Prix that Professional Event Services is handling. Anyone know why they're stopping, or what they're going to be doing (if anything) afterwards?
Do you work for AV?
I don't even know what AV is, so probably not. I'm not sure what that has to do with my question, either.
My guess being that used to be my job before I went full time into animation is that Wizards is likely going to a gig by gig handled deal, thus PES would have to place bids for each event, and likely PSAV will under cut them, and they might end up still going with PES, but at a reduced price.
I hope PSAV doesnt end up gettingt these gigs. That would be aweful. I used to work for them, they are THE mc donalds of the AV world.
I have no idea what PSAV is supposed to be either. You're tossing out a lot of acronyms that I (and I expect most of the other people) don't recognize.
Dredge is only busted when you don't have to pay mana for your spells (outside of the enablers).
Narcomoeba? Free. Bloodghast? Free. Amalgam? Free. Also, pick anything in the Legacy version, it's free (Dread Return, Cabal Therapy, Ichorid, Bridge - Bridge just gives you tokens, it doesn't say "when a creature dies, you may pay ...").
Vengevine is technically free, but you still have to pay mana for 2 creatures before it, which balances it. There aren't any creatures that you can cast for free in Dredgevine. Bloodghast does not trigger Vengevine if you landfalled it in, and neither does unearthing Fatestitcher.
So on a note unrelated to most of the discussion, I saw some people say this is the last Grand Prix that Professional Event Services is handling. Anyone know why they're stopping, or what they're going to be doing (if anything) afterwards?
Do you work for AV?
I don't even know what AV is, so probably not. I'm not sure what that has to do with my question, either.
My guess being that used to be my job before I went full time into animation is that Wizards is likely going to a gig by gig handled deal, thus PES would have to place bids for each event, and likely PSAV will under cut them, and they might end up still going with PES, but at a reduced price.
I hope PSAV doesnt end up gettingt these gigs. That would be aweful. I used to work for them, they are THE mc donalds of the AV world.
I have no idea what PSAV is supposed to be either. You're tossing out a lot of acronyms that I (and I expect most of the other people) don't recognize.
Sorry. Av is Audio Visual, which is basically event services in general at this point. Back in the day, your events were made with a contract for X years. In the 2001s, most companies lost money on the recession, and this was one of the ways, so to reduce liability of these things, companies have turned to letting contracts run out, then do event by event basis for what company handles it.
This is sorta dirty now, because so many companies compete for each gig, and undercut each other for chump change. Big business loves this because it just saves them money... alot of money, at reduced quality, sure, but then they throw the AV company under the bus, and move to the next one. Its a game thats gotten standardize over the last 15 years.
So I wouldnt be surprised, wizards who does big business is just moving over this model. Us who did AV for a living (I always did it part time while doing animation) who also played magic always laughed about how they could be saving somewhere around 20 grand per event if they did this, and always envied they guys at those old contract based services because thats sorta the last "Real full time" job you can have in AV.
PSAV is the event services company that is owned by Golman and Sax, who basically owns anything you can make a good profit off of and own the industry of... legally, and is known for being aweful. But they own pretty much every AV company now, so you have to deal with them.
So are we just going to completely ignore the fact that we want to throw dredge under the bus for how resilient it is, and then just watch Infect win through like 4-5 hate cards and blockers... right?
So are we just going to completely ignore the fact that we want to throw dredge under the bus for how resilient it is, and then just watch Infect win through like 4-5 hate cards and blockers... right?
Infect is still somewhat of a problem. Dredge is just the FotM for the ban hysteria. Dredge is a much bigger concern though due to lack of main deck ways to interact with it. Dredge literally takes graveyard hate or bust.
So are we just going to completely ignore the fact that we want to throw dredge under the bus for how resilient it is, and then just watch Infect win through like 4-5 hate cards and blockers... right?
What hate cards? I've seen standard removal spells, but nothing specifically for Infect. This is unlike Dredge, which we've seen win through Rest in Peace, and other sideboard cards tailored to the matchup. I'm sure if more players sided something like Pyroclasm or other cards specifically for infect we'd see it go down.
So are we just going to completely ignore the fact that we want to throw dredge under the bus for how resilient it is, and then just watch Infect win through like 4-5 hate cards and blockers... right?
I know it's not the consensus here, but I'm with you. I do think Dredge is a larger problem than Infect, but not by a large margin. I think they are both up there on a list of "banning targets" if there should be one at all (which I don't personally think anything should be on the chopping block, but I understand that Dredge is up there on the Storm scale).
You can't expect people to feel the same way about a Dredge deck and an Aggro deck, even if Dredge technically wins with a flurry of creatures and burn.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Wizards is always going to print cards like Prized Amalgam and Cathartic Reunion.
The Dredge mechanic always has, and always will be the problem. It's the engine that makes cards like Amalgam and Reunion look so busted.
GGT did nothing for like 1.25 years after it was unbanned. It wasn't until Neonate and Amalgam that it became viable.
It was the same for Eldrazi Temple but for a much longer time period. That is the thing with mechanics and engine cards. They are inherently broken but require a shell. They also have a bad effect on design space because they make it socertain type of cards that are innocent or even semi weak look like nonsense. Getting rid of reunion or anything else is like banning Thought-Knot or Eldrazi Mimic instead of Eye of Ugin.
Wizards is always going to print cards like Prized Amalgam and Cathartic Reunion.
The Dredge mechanic always has, and always will be the problem. It's the engine that makes cards like Amalgam and Reunion look so busted.
Yep. If I'm not mistaken, his last Grixis Control that he played at a GP was 13-0 (with 4 SCM and 4 Kologhan's Command) had 0 counterspell. This one at least has 2 Countersquall and 4 Cryptic Command.
I normally don't enjoy Midrange decks much, but that deck was pretty fun to play (4 SCM and 4 K Command). It's literally stupid what you can do with those cards. I'm guessing that this deck also has that "fun factor" to go with a strong metagamed list. Corey is the man. (I will always remember him as the only person who beat my Painter deck with RUG Delver. )
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)1. Give the meta time to deal with the meta. We are litterally watching a blue control deck and a blue midrange decks at the top tables. I have a hard time believing the archtype is dead watching 2 dudes with only one loss between them, and 25 wins.
2. Maybe talk about how X archtype needs to be powered up, rather than "this deck is doing well, ban please wizards." They do infact listen to gamer feedback... give them the right kind, please. I really am tired of current best deck being banned every quarter.
They were always going to print cards like Cathartic Reunion, maybe. Cards that combine drawing with discarding isn't something new. But the last time they really printed something like Prized Amalgam was Ichorid back in Torment.
At any rate, something being banned because they might one day print something that would break it is absurd. Cards should be banned because they are overpowered in the present, and GGT was completely innocuous in Modern until this year. I strongly support the unbanning of Golgari Grave-Troll at the time it was unbanned.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I think Golgari Grave-Troll should be up for a banning conversation. I find it difficult to blame Cathartic Reunion because we're going to start seeing a lot of red looting like this, it seems red gets a card every set and it's not reasonable to ban them all. It's also something they want red to do so we can't just remove it from reds color pie.
Prized Amalgam is a ridiculous card, but Dredge is just the enabler for it, someone would built it with Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, and Narcomoeba even if it wasn't in Dredge. It's the actual dredge cards that need to go.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Except Dredge was already a proven offender in Modern. That's why Dread Return is banned and has been since the format's inception.
If we are going to have to keep banning every card that piggybacks off of Dredge, you're much better off just killing the engine of the deck completely to save everyone the massive headache.
Neonate
They seem to be going out of business. It appears to be a tough time to be a TO, SCG is cutting back significantly and PES is done.
Do you work in AV?
My guess being that used to be my job before I went full time into animation is that Wizards is likely going to a gig by gig handled deal, thus PES would have to place bids for each event, and likely PSAV will under cut them, and they might end up still going with PES, but at a reduced price.
I hope PSAV doesnt end up gettingt these gigs. That would be aweful. I used to work for them, they are THE mc donalds of the AV world.
I have no idea what PSAV is supposed to be either. You're tossing out a lot of acronyms that I (and I expect most of the other people) don't recognize.
Narcomoeba? Free. Bloodghast? Free. Amalgam? Free. Also, pick anything in the Legacy version, it's free (Dread Return, Cabal Therapy, Ichorid, Bridge - Bridge just gives you tokens, it doesn't say "when a creature dies, you may pay ...").
Haunted Dead? Scrapheap Scrounger? Gravecrawler? Unburial Rites? Not free. I loled when people said Scrapheap Scrounger = Ichorid during Kaladesh spoiler season. Adding a cost of 1B is a world of difference.
Vengevine is technically free, but you still have to pay mana for 2 creatures before it, which balances it. There aren't any creatures that you can cast for free in Dredgevine. Bloodghast does not trigger Vengevine if you landfalled it in, and neither does unearthing Fatestitcher.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Sorry. Av is Audio Visual, which is basically event services in general at this point. Back in the day, your events were made with a contract for X years. In the 2001s, most companies lost money on the recession, and this was one of the ways, so to reduce liability of these things, companies have turned to letting contracts run out, then do event by event basis for what company handles it.
This is sorta dirty now, because so many companies compete for each gig, and undercut each other for chump change. Big business loves this because it just saves them money... alot of money, at reduced quality, sure, but then they throw the AV company under the bus, and move to the next one. Its a game thats gotten standardize over the last 15 years.
So I wouldnt be surprised, wizards who does big business is just moving over this model. Us who did AV for a living (I always did it part time while doing animation) who also played magic always laughed about how they could be saving somewhere around 20 grand per event if they did this, and always envied they guys at those old contract based services because thats sorta the last "Real full time" job you can have in AV.
PSAV is the event services company that is owned by Golman and Sax, who basically owns anything you can make a good profit off of and own the industry of... legally, and is known for being aweful. But they own pretty much every AV company now, so you have to deal with them.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
Infect is still somewhat of a problem. Dredge is just the FotM for the ban hysteria. Dredge is a much bigger concern though due to lack of main deck ways to interact with it. Dredge literally takes graveyard hate or bust.
What hate cards? I've seen standard removal spells, but nothing specifically for Infect. This is unlike Dredge, which we've seen win through Rest in Peace, and other sideboard cards tailored to the matchup. I'm sure if more players sided something like Pyroclasm or other cards specifically for infect we'd see it go down.
I know it's not the consensus here, but I'm with you. I do think Dredge is a larger problem than Infect, but not by a large margin. I think they are both up there on a list of "banning targets" if there should be one at all (which I don't personally think anything should be on the chopping block, but I understand that Dredge is up there on the Storm scale).
You can't expect people to feel the same way about a Dredge deck and an Aggro deck, even if Dredge technically wins with a flurry of creatures and burn.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)It was the same for Eldrazi Temple but for a much longer time period. That is the thing with mechanics and engine cards. They are inherently broken but require a shell. They also have a bad effect on design space because they make it socertain type of cards that are innocent or even semi weak look like nonsense. Getting rid of reunion or anything else is like banning Thought-Knot or Eldrazi Mimic instead of Eye of Ugin.
1 Burkhart, Corey [US] 43 0.7362
2 Braun-Duin, Brian [US] 40 0.7476
3 D'Ambrose, Nicolas [US] 39 0.7182
4 Voss, Zach [US] 39 0.7056
5 Mei, Michael Songhao [US] 39 0.6944
6 Mitas, Alex [US] 39 0.6713
7 Mackie, Kevin [US] 39 0.6701
8 Napoli, Phillip [US] 39 0.6582
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678Mackie is on Skred Red, Mitas is on Jeskai Control (no nahiri)