In every format other than Standard, if you're playing a control deck, you need to be doing something unfair. If your plan is to kill/counter everything and win by attacking five times with a Colonnade it's not going to work. Jeskai has Nahiri, Miracles has the Top+CB lock, Lands has DD+Stage and Grove+Fire, just to name a few examples.
The big question is how to make a combo that is a decent wincon for control, not just something that a combo deck will try to assemble ASAP and sit back knowing that it's already won. I think the key here is to make the combo not win immediately, but generate value over time. This way, it encourages playing defensive spells to stay alive while the combo does its thing, instead of simply ritualing/ramping into the combo.
Thopter + Sword was a step in the right direction, but it proved to be too weak. Being countered by artifact and grave hate doesn't help.
Grove + Fire is a good idea in theory, but it really doesn't do anything for diversity. Jund is already a tier 1 deck; Fire just makes it better. Don't forget that Tron already plays Groves and is looking for a way to shore up its aggro matchups.
We're not getting Top back. Forget about it.
Bitterblossom has been unbanned and isn't doing much. Recently there have been a few players using it with Smuggler's Copter, but whether it's legit or just a flash in the pan remains to be seen. It also combos with a few cards in BW Tokens: it can get your life total low for Timely Reinforcements, and Auriok Champion cancels the life loss.
Two reprints (alright, more like seven) that would encourage synergistic, but not insta-win, combos are the cycling lands (for Loam + Seismic Assault) and Astral Slide/Lightning Rift. Slide may be too underpowered for Modern though.
Keep in mind that a lot of the cards above are killed by Abrupt Decay, which is another frustrating obstacle for hypothetical cards that would encourage "interactive" or "nonlinear" decks. It says a lot when the top "fair" decks that aren't playing Decay are immune to it (Bant Eldrazi, Jeskai).
Well, lets be real. Decay was printed to beat counter top, devs stated that much. So decay is going to beat any "good" control win con pretty easily.
So realistically, you just got to accept that fact. Maybe have the win con be 4 mana and work with something that could be in yard or play. I dunno. Im not a game dev, just a good player.
Nahiri works on this access... and its probably fine. If control has a lock down on the game, it doesnt matter the turns, nahiri says "I win". But discounting aggro because control should lose to that and tempo, it doesnt really have great tools to beat the rest.
I think spell queller is a great step. If it had more mystic snake kinda cards, or realistically,,, just good faeries, it propbably could be pretty good. Id like to see a good counter that isnt great against aggro. Maybe a 3 mana counter that is free mana when the 3rd spell is cast in a turn. Doesnt solve midrange or ramp stuff.
Its a pretty complicated problem... maybe a better version of Mystical teachings at 3 mana, or a good wish card, anyone who casted Bring to light knows that kinda thing is super powerful. I mean light is 5 mana, aka unplayable in modern, but its effect is so good people run it.
I personally would love to see some control version of it, or teachings. Problem with teachings (which the effect IS good) is that 4 mana to draw is bad. I think at 3 mana its be alright... still bad against aggro, good against slower decks.
Hey, I think a 4 mana wish/bring to light would do it in a heart beat. At 4 mana they can play any 3 mana or less instant or sorcery from their sideboard. Seems pretty stupid good to me.
In every format other than Standard, if you're playing a control deck, you need to be doing something unfair. If your plan is to kill/counter everything and win by attacking five times with a Colonnade it's not going to work. Jeskai has Nahiri, Miracles has the Top+CB lock, Lands has DD+Stage and Grove+Fire, just to name a few examples.
The big question is how to make a combo that is a decent wincon for control, not just something that a combo deck will try to assemble ASAP and sit back knowing that it's already won. I think the key here is to make the combo not win immediately, but generate value over time. This way, it encourages playing defensive spells to stay alive while the combo does its thing, instead of simply ritualing/ramping into the combo.
Ideas on leveraging the banlist to make modern more fun more diverse and to give more payoff to decks that want to play longer.
#1 Jace, the mind sculptor Jace is 4 mana. And dies to lightning bolt On T4 getting a Brainstorm is nice but isn't going to break a format. Why can I be killed by Affinity, Burn, Infect, Dredge, etc. on T4 but I'm not allowed to fateseal, or bounce a creature on T4. I haven't seen a good argument made as to why I can't play a 4 mana planeswalker that doesn't come close to winning the game on T4 but all the other decks are allowed to WIN THE GAME on T3,T4, and T5.
Yes, Jace is very powerful. IF you can protect him. But with modern's other weak counterspells it's a tough task and I think it's a fair pay-off to allow us to have him IF we can protect him. No Force of Will, no Flusterstorm, no Counterspell, etc. There is no good reason for Jace to be banned in modern. Would he even see a lot of play? I mean they would have to do a MASSIVE reprinting but that's a nice money maker for them with Modern Masters 2017! Reprint Jace at rare, reissue the FTV that has the foil Jace, etc.
Jace=SAFE UNBAN
#2 Functional Counterspell enters the Modern cardpool. This goes against the design philosophy they currently have that "Modern 2 mana counterspells must be conditional". I like something along the lines of UU-Instant-Counter target spell. Reveal a blue card from your hand or lose 2 life. OR UU-Instant-Counter target spell. Exile [this card].
#3 Outside the box answers. LAND-Enters the battlefield tapped. When [this card enters the battlefield either gain 3 life or remove 3 counters from target player(or until your next turn you can not be dealt poison counters). T:produces a U mana. This land, in some cases will be a worse island but against the current meta it's a bane to aggro and Infect decks. If decks run this card it doesn't need to dissuade the aggro decks it just lets the fair blue decks get a leg up. Again, just a quick idea. The card could be improved upon.
Ideas on leveraging the banlist to make modern more fun more diverse and to give more payoff to decks that want to play longer.
#1 Jace, the mind sculptor Jace is 4 mana. And dies to lightning bolt On T4 getting a Brainstorm is nice but isn't going to break a format. Why can I be killed by Affinity, Burn, Infect, Dredge, etc. on T4 but I'm not allowed to fateseal, or bounce a creature on T4. I haven't seen a good argument made as to why I can't play a 4 mana planeswalker that doesn't come close to winning the game on T4 but all the other decks are allowed to WIN THE GAME on T3,T4, and T5.
Yes, Jace is very powerful. IF you can protect him. But with modern's other weak counterspells it's a tough task and I think it's a fair pay-off to allow us to have him IF we can protect him. No Force of Will, no Flusterstorm, no Counterspell, etc. There is no good reason for Jace to be banned in modern. Would he even see a lot of play? I mean they would have to do a MASSIVE reprinting but that's a nice money maker for them with Modern Masters 2017! Reprint Jace at rare, reissue the FTV that has the foil Jace, etc.
I do agree that Jace is a safe unban but there is no chance they are printing him at rare level ever or reissue the FTV20. Both actions would be really bad for their credibility towards the secondary market. If Jace gets unbanned people will just have to collect 400 euros for a playset.
Ideas on leveraging the banlist to make modern more fun more diverse and to give more payoff to decks that want to play longer.
#1 Jace, the mind sculptor Jace is 4 mana. And dies to lightning bolt On T4 getting a Brainstorm is nice but isn't going to break a format. Why can I be killed by Affinity, Burn, Infect, Dredge, etc. on T4 but I'm not allowed to fateseal, or bounce a creature on T4. I haven't seen a good argument made as to why I can't play a 4 mana planeswalker that doesn't come close to winning the game on T4 but all the other decks are allowed to WIN THE GAME on T3,T4, and T5.
Yes, Jace is very powerful. IF you can protect him. But with modern's other weak counterspells it's a tough task and I think it's a fair pay-off to allow us to have him IF we can protect him. No Force of Will, no Flusterstorm, no Counterspell, etc. There is no good reason for Jace to be banned in modern. Would he even see a lot of play? I mean they would have to do a MASSIVE reprinting but that's a nice money maker for them with Modern Masters 2017! Reprint Jace at rare, reissue the FTV that has the foil Jace, etc.
I do agree that Jace is a safe unban but there is no chance they are printing him at rare level ever or reissue the FTV20. Both actions would be really bad for their credibility towards the secondary market. If Jace gets unbanned people will just have to collect 400 euros for a playset.
I disagree. If Jace became modern legal they would go through the roof in price even with a solid reprint rate. #1 the Jace collectors could sell and laugh all the way to the bank #2 MTG has consistently stated that non-reserve list cards WILL regularly be reprinted. There is no expectation that Jace won't be reprinted. In fact he just got reprinted in Eternal Masters.
Jaces is a completely safe ban in the current meta. He doesnt do anything right now. Hed be like the bitter blossom unban. Might be releivent if control gets something later. But not right now.
Probably would help too. Because it would mean it would take something less powerful printed to make control better... which I dont mind either.
And I do still think at 2 mana counters should be situational. You need to figure out a good counterspell thats bad against aggro, and not what a combo deck wants to use, but would be good against them.
But that land you suggest is awful. Not only does it just ignore the color pie (white green and black gain life, black removes counters) control SHOULD be soft to aggro.
Realistically, combo should be good enough that control decks should exist to beat them and aggro decks shouldnt be beating combo. This isnt really true right now. Real combo decks go over dredge so thats not an issue. But burn has ediloin against combo which is a hinderance... but infect wuns turn 3 through general hate... which I think is a real problem.
Im generally not for bans in modern. Infect has gotten pretty damn reliable with 1 free pump spell, 2 pump spells that do 4 or more pump for one, 3 different ways to give protection at 1 mana... its crazy how redundent the deck is and high powered its spells for its cost are.
Again, not for bannings, but the defence I used to give was infect wins turn 3 sometimes but loses to hate. Then become immence was a thing and it was infect wins turn 3 unleas you have hate. Now with defence its infect wins turn 3, even sometimes through hate.
Ideas on leveraging the banlist to make modern more fun more diverse and to give more payoff to decks that want to play longer.
#1 Jace, the mind sculptor Jace is 4 mana. And dies to lightning bolt On T4 getting a Brainstorm is nice but isn't going to break a format. Why can I be killed by Affinity, Burn, Infect, Dredge, etc. on T4 but I'm not allowed to fateseal, or bounce a creature on T4. I haven't seen a good argument made as to why I can't play a 4 mana planeswalker that doesn't come close to winning the game on T4 but all the other decks are allowed to WIN THE GAME on T3,T4, and T5.
Yes, Jace is very powerful. IF you can protect him. But with modern's other weak counterspells it's a tough task and I think it's a fair pay-off to allow us to have him IF we can protect him. No Force of Will, no Flusterstorm, no Counterspell, etc. There is no good reason for Jace to be banned in modern. Would he even see a lot of play? I mean they would have to do a MASSIVE reprinting but that's a nice money maker for them with Modern Masters 2017! Reprint Jace at rare, reissue the FTV that has the foil Jace, etc.
I do agree that Jace is a safe unban but there is no chance they are printing him at rare level ever or reissue the FTV20. Both actions would be really bad for their credibility towards the secondary market. If Jace gets unbanned people will just have to collect 400 euros for a playset.
I disagree. If Jace became modern legal they would go through the roof in price even with a solid reprint rate. #1 the Jace collectors could sell and laugh all the way to the bank #2 MTG has consistently stated that non-reserve list cards WILL regularly be reprinted. There is no expectation that Jace won't be reprinted. In fact he just got reprinted in Eternal Masters.
I am not saying he is not getting reprinted. I said that he is not getting reprinted in rare as you suggested. Tarmogyof is still a mythic, Jace will also remain a mythic and there is not changing in that. FTV20 is not getting reissued because FTVs are yearly collectibles and they don't want to hurt that market. Jace will see reprints in eternal masters and in modern masters if he gets unbanned but at mythic rarity and, as we have seen with tarmogoyf, it won't lower the prices of the card at all.
All planeswalkers are going to be mythics. Mythics are supposed to be unique in comparison to the rest of the set.
Hypothetically speaking, if Jace were to be unbanned then they would have to simultaneously announce his reprint in Modern Masters 2017 or prices would skyrocket and people would immediately rage at Wizards. From a price and accessibility standpoint Bloodbraid Elf and Stoneforge Mystic are more logical because they are so many copies out there already.
Personally speaking, I wouldn't mind either of those three regardless of price.
Jace is an extremely safe unban but WOTC is probably terrified of the secondary market, like everyone has said. I imagine he spikes to Goyf levels and then settles back down to around Lilly. Maybe lower once people see he isn't as good in Modern as he is in Legacy.
All yes would do is make bgx die. You need to play jace yo ein anything ressembling a fair game of magic but he eill do absolutely nothing against the problems for control. Izzetmage had it correct when he said you have to be doing something unfair with your control decks. There is a reason why almost all successful control decks outside of standard where combocontrol or some kind of prison deck.
All yes would do is make bgx die. You need to play jace yo ein anything ressembling a fair game of magic but he eill do absolutely nothing against the problems for control. Izzetmage had it correct when he said you have to be doing something unfair with your control decks. There is a reason why almost all successful control decks outside of standard where combocontrol or some kind of prison deck.
Liliana is arguably just as powerful as Jace (arguably) and BGx gets access to her. When I play Shardless, Liliana is very often more backbreaking for my opponent than Jace is. He dies to pretty much everything that kills other planeswalkers.
All yes would do is make bgx die. You need to play jace yo ein anything ressembling a fair game of magic but he eill do absolutely nothing against the problems for control. Izzetmage had it correct when he said you have to be doing something unfair with your control decks. There is a reason why almost all successful control decks outside of standard where combocontrol or some kind of prison deck.
Liliana is arguably just as powerful as Jace (arguably) and BGx gets access to her. When I play Shardless, Liliana is very often more backbreaking for my opponent than Jace is. He dies to pretty much everything that kills other planeswalkers.
This would not make BGx die at all.
Yes, she is on the same powerlevel. And no, its an extremely safe ban. Prior to mircles getting access to things that just made aggro bad, people were doing stuff like siding out jace against zoo.
ZOO. Naya Zoo... That deck that casts one creature a turn, and turns them sidewise... Jace doesnt win vs anything modern has which is vastly better. You dont really need bloodbraid to keep jace in check... affinity, burn, suicide zoo, dredge, infect... All of these decks would laugh at a turn 4 jace and say "Oh thought you had a wrath. Nevermind. GG I win.
With the worldwake printing, ftv, and eternal masters do you think there are enough copies floating around to make him assecible? Yes that's 3 printings but they have all been reined in...it's not like we have something of conspiracy 1 levels shooting out of the presses for a prolonged amount of time. I see a lot of comparison to butterblossom for expected impact, but that card is still $20-30 USD with at least a handful of printings and I guarantee Jace would show up a lot more in lists besides just fae/tokens.
You could unban Jace under the argument that he doesn't further any of the issues with the format's speed, I agree. Plenty of decks will view him as a dead card in their opponents hand. The issue is that he doesn't lead to good games of magic...when you're at parity he's great but when you're ahead he's freaking back breaking. He doesn't close out the game like Nahiri though, he just durdles and rewards you for just playing magic with no counter play. He is just a massive roadblock that even when answered gains the controller a metric ton of time to develop with. Nahiri will close a game out in 3 turns...the door more or less shut, but you interact with her (damage, dreadbore, etc) and you slow your opponent down significantly. Jace requires a lot of resources to deal with on most board states.
Good luck crawling back into a game after I answered your 1-2 threats and stick a Jace. Good luck not going not going to time in grindier games. Good luck having control have ANY sort of consistency issues post T4, which impacts other printings.
Jace would be absurd as a 2-4 of in turns...could you imagine...
I'd rather focus on fixed versions then mess around with unbans. WotC needs to print more varied and wide hate for socifc archetypes that are resticted in nature enough that combo wouldn't immediately jam 4 of them imo. I don't mean to sound like a hypocrite but there isn't a board state that Jace is bad in. If he resolves he's going to be doing something relevant most of the time. That's too wide imo.
I'm not sure what the answer is to the format's speed and goodfishing, but Jace feels like a too heavy a swing in the other direction without actually addressing the issue. Will he be played? Sure. Is he going to break the format? No probably not. Is he the kind of card that needs to be showing up? No, I don't think so. He just offers too much resiliency and utility in one package imho.
I think if I answer a couple of your threats and stick a Nahiri you are in more immediate danger. Yes Jace can bounce and brainstorm but aggro decks will just dump their hand and kill him and I am not tapping out against Combo to cast him. Infect will just give their dude hexproof in response to the bounce, dredge and burn and zoo will have you dead before you can cast him, and affinity laughs at him.
I play with Jace in Legacy quite a bit. He is good but hardly gamebreaking.
And yes if we get to the late game and play Jace then the control deck is in a good position to win, but that is the point of playing control. Survive the early turns, stabilize, and drop your wincon.
Nahiri I just LOL slam on 4 after an Anger and you have two turns to go after her or kill me before I win.
That's just it though, what is Jace accomplishing aside from just being a superior stand alone card in a vaccum. His power level regardless of what's going on around him is what his biggest hurdle to becoming unbanned is I think. Besides he's not doing anything to benefit the format if he comes in, I just don't see value in bringing him off the list. Durdle lists get a new toy, we have another secondary market nightmare, and the format is still blisteringly fast and resilient.
What he does is give control a power boost, does it matter now? No probably not. but if something thats not back breaking but good gets printed opt for example, it might be enough all togather to boost them, without just giving them a single back breaking card.
Hearthstone has a good example. Hunter was a pretty meh class in hearthstone. They made a card that was just ABSURD. the deck then turned into this thing that won if you casted/drawed it, lost if you didnt.
Id rather have the overall powerlevel of the cards be a 7, rather than a deck fulled with 5s, and 2 10s.
Jace is IMO a clearly safe unban for many reasons already discussed across the internet at this point.
Dredge is getting up there in power level and feels kind of broken. I wouldn't even be surprised at a second ban from it but Cathartic Reunion will slow it down while leaving the deck around.
Banning Glistener Elf puts a major damper on Infect, which is among the fastest decks in the format. It does leave options for the deck though.. just not blisteringly fast ones.
Giving control a toy and slowing the format's fastest decks would generate a lot of buzz and interest in brewing to see what's viable in the new environment. I do worry about Tron getting too strong without Infect to beat it, but we'll see. Part of me wonders if they'd go back on Splinter Twin but I feel like it wouldn't happen so soon. The meta today isn't exactly the result of Splinter Twin disappearing - it's also the result of several new tools being printed to help already fast linear decks.
Better sales for MM17 will be the main driver but I would actually like to explore a format that would result from this.
Jace is IMO a clearly safe unban for many reasons already discussed across the internet at this point.
Dredge is getting up there in power level and feels kind of broken. I wouldn't even be surprised at a second ban from it but Cathartic Reunion will slow it down while leaving the deck around.
Banning Glistener Elf puts a major damper on Infect, which is among the fastest decks in the format. It does leave options for the deck though.. just not blisteringly fast ones.
Giving control a toy and slowing the format's fastest decks would generate a lot of buzz and interest in brewing to see what's viable in the new environment. I do worry about Tron getting too strong without Infect to beat it, but we'll see. Part of me wonders if they'd go back on Splinter Twin but I feel like it wouldn't happen so soon. The meta today isn't exactly the result of Splinter Twin disappearing - it's also the result of several new tools being printed to help already fast linear decks.
Better sales for MM17 will be the main driver but I would actually like to explore a format that would result from this.
If you want to ban Reunion and let them have another one in a couple of months thats OK by you.
Also, about Elf. We don't kill decks here. Take it to another format if you want.
Your bans are ridiculous, your line of thinking is flawed and you are a bad, whiny control player and a bad voice for the format we love.
You've been traumatized by multiple bans already and you're oversensitive to the idea of another. Revealed in your sig.
I really believe something like this would benefit more players than it hurts. Definitely extinguish the "nothing but linear aggro" we're all seeing in the most played decks and drum up interest for MM17.
IDK exactly what they'll do, but I feel something coming.
The data for Dredge ban isnt there. They were online alot, yes, but its a cheaper deck to build, and is far less meta % then infect and affinity.
And in the most recent gp there was 2 in the top 64 with a grand total of 3 sideboard cards on average per deck to keep it down.
People freaking out about dredge need to relax. The data doesnt support your agruement especially when you compare it to infects meta % and top spot numbers
I still think a counterspell that has a limitation and a situational effect would help. Something as simple as two mana to counter a three drop or less and pay additional kicker/discard/pay life to counter any spell or bounce or stifle something. I'm not saying we should break blue, but a little helping hand doesn't hurt.
I still think a counterspell that has a limitation and a situational effect would help. Something as simple as two mana to counter a three drop or less and pay additional kicker/discard/pay life to counter any spell or bounce or stifle something. I'm not saying we should break blue, but a little helping hand doesn't hurt.
I don't think a kicker is the correct option. You just make an extremely good spell at that rate, its a 2 mana conditional spell you can insure doesnt go bad later in the game. That doesnt work. You need to make its powerlevel consistant. Either make it a hard counter with a draw back, or make it a conditonal counterspell, not good no matter what stage of the game spell.
The data for Dredge ban isnt there. They were online alot, yes, but its a cheaper deck to build, and is far less meta % then infect and affinity.
And in the most recent gp there was 2 in the top 64 with a grand total of 3 sideboard cards on average per deck to keep it down.
People freaking out about dredge need to relax. The data doesnt support your agruement especially when you compare it to infects meta % and top spot numbers
I agree. I can't stand Dredge as a deck. But their is reasonable hate for it. The problem is that the sideboard is getting crowded. Perhaps it's time for modern to move to an 18 card sideboard?
The data for Dredge ban isnt there. They were online alot, yes, but its a cheaper deck to build, and is far less meta % then infect and affinity.
And in the most recent gp there was 2 in the top 64 with a grand total of 3 sideboard cards on average per deck to keep it down.
People freaking out about dredge need to relax. The data doesnt support your agruement especially when you compare it to infects meta % and top spot numbers
I agree. I can't stand Dredge as a deck. But their is reasonable hate for it. The problem is that the sideboard is getting crowded. Perhaps it's time for modern to move to an 18 card sideboard?
I would love Modern to go into a 20-card sideboard(18 is not a round number, so no), but Aaron and co. just won't do that(they have spoken several times about it). They want equal sideboard slots across all formats, and to change all formats is so difficult for them. I hate this kind of logic though. It belonges to the 90's, and they belong there as well.
Fresh cool and smart mechanics are here. I hail WOTC for this. But this is not enough. We need fresh minds, fresh ideas about the game itself.
One solution is to nerf something from the deck that is narrowing all of our sideboard slots to death(Dredge), but I don't want people to lose the decks they love. Truth is that Dredge is bad news for the meta though and a ban would be discussable.
15 isn't a round number...so what are you talking about? 18 is perfectly viable and could actually happen and it would benefit fair decks the most the linear decks by definition can't shave too many cards lest they risk losing all the power and speed that they brought to the table. And adding 3 sideboard slots would be a real help but not insane.
Changing the sideboard is extremely unlikely. WotC wants the formats to be different in cardpools, but identical in construction. This parity helps players transition between formats more easily than if there were different construction criterion for each constructed format.
I think the reality is that sideboards will always feel constrained in a wide format. The economy of sideboard slots is a feature, not a bug. It is part of the challenge in metagaming to use the sideboard wisely. Feature, not bug imo.
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The big question is how to make a combo that is a decent wincon for control, not just something that a combo deck will try to assemble ASAP and sit back knowing that it's already won. I think the key here is to make the combo not win immediately, but generate value over time. This way, it encourages playing defensive spells to stay alive while the combo does its thing, instead of simply ritualing/ramping into the combo.
Thopter + Sword was a step in the right direction, but it proved to be too weak. Being countered by artifact and grave hate doesn't help.
Grove + Fire is a good idea in theory, but it really doesn't do anything for diversity. Jund is already a tier 1 deck; Fire just makes it better. Don't forget that Tron already plays Groves and is looking for a way to shore up its aggro matchups.
We're not getting Top back. Forget about it.
Bitterblossom has been unbanned and isn't doing much. Recently there have been a few players using it with Smuggler's Copter, but whether it's legit or just a flash in the pan remains to be seen. It also combos with a few cards in BW Tokens: it can get your life total low for Timely Reinforcements, and Auriok Champion cancels the life loss.
Two reprints (alright, more like seven) that would encourage synergistic, but not insta-win, combos are the cycling lands (for Loam + Seismic Assault) and Astral Slide/Lightning Rift. Slide may be too underpowered for Modern though.
Keep in mind that a lot of the cards above are killed by Abrupt Decay, which is another frustrating obstacle for hypothetical cards that would encourage "interactive" or "nonlinear" decks. It says a lot when the top "fair" decks that aren't playing Decay are immune to it (Bant Eldrazi, Jeskai).
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
So realistically, you just got to accept that fact. Maybe have the win con be 4 mana and work with something that could be in yard or play. I dunno. Im not a game dev, just a good player.
Nahiri works on this access... and its probably fine. If control has a lock down on the game, it doesnt matter the turns, nahiri says "I win". But discounting aggro because control should lose to that and tempo, it doesnt really have great tools to beat the rest.
I think spell queller is a great step. If it had more mystic snake kinda cards, or realistically,,, just good faeries, it propbably could be pretty good. Id like to see a good counter that isnt great against aggro. Maybe a 3 mana counter that is free mana when the 3rd spell is cast in a turn. Doesnt solve midrange or ramp stuff.
Its a pretty complicated problem... maybe a better version of Mystical teachings at 3 mana, or a good wish card, anyone who casted Bring to light knows that kinda thing is super powerful. I mean light is 5 mana, aka unplayable in modern, but its effect is so good people run it.
I personally would love to see some control version of it, or teachings. Problem with teachings (which the effect IS good) is that 4 mana to draw is bad. I think at 3 mana its be alright... still bad against aggro, good against slower decks.
Hey, I think a 4 mana wish/bring to light would do it in a heart beat. At 4 mana they can play any 3 mana or less instant or sorcery from their sideboard. Seems pretty stupid good to me.
you are 100% talking about taking turns
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
#1 Jace, the mind sculptor Jace is 4 mana. And dies to lightning bolt On T4 getting a Brainstorm is nice but isn't going to break a format. Why can I be killed by Affinity, Burn, Infect, Dredge, etc. on T4 but I'm not allowed to fateseal, or bounce a creature on T4. I haven't seen a good argument made as to why I can't play a 4 mana planeswalker that doesn't come close to winning the game on T4 but all the other decks are allowed to WIN THE GAME on T3,T4, and T5.
Yes, Jace is very powerful. IF you can protect him. But with modern's other weak counterspells it's a tough task and I think it's a fair pay-off to allow us to have him IF we can protect him. No Force of Will, no Flusterstorm, no Counterspell, etc. There is no good reason for Jace to be banned in modern. Would he even see a lot of play? I mean they would have to do a MASSIVE reprinting but that's a nice money maker for them with Modern Masters 2017! Reprint Jace at rare, reissue the FTV that has the foil Jace, etc.
Jace=SAFE UNBAN
#2 Functional Counterspell enters the Modern cardpool. This goes against the design philosophy they currently have that "Modern 2 mana counterspells must be conditional". I like something along the lines of UU-Instant-Counter target spell. Reveal a blue card from your hand or lose 2 life. OR UU-Instant-Counter target spell. Exile [this card].
#3 Outside the box answers. LAND-Enters the battlefield tapped. When [this card enters the battlefield either gain 3 life or remove 3 counters from target player(or until your next turn you can not be dealt poison counters). T:produces a U mana. This land, in some cases will be a worse island but against the current meta it's a bane to aggro and Infect decks. If decks run this card it doesn't need to dissuade the aggro decks it just lets the fair blue decks get a leg up. Again, just a quick idea. The card could be improved upon.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I disagree. If Jace became modern legal they would go through the roof in price even with a solid reprint rate. #1 the Jace collectors could sell and laugh all the way to the bank #2 MTG has consistently stated that non-reserve list cards WILL regularly be reprinted. There is no expectation that Jace won't be reprinted. In fact he just got reprinted in Eternal Masters.
Probably would help too. Because it would mean it would take something less powerful printed to make control better... which I dont mind either.
And I do still think at 2 mana counters should be situational. You need to figure out a good counterspell thats bad against aggro, and not what a combo deck wants to use, but would be good against them.
But that land you suggest is awful. Not only does it just ignore the color pie (white green and black gain life, black removes counters) control SHOULD be soft to aggro.
Realistically, combo should be good enough that control decks should exist to beat them and aggro decks shouldnt be beating combo. This isnt really true right now. Real combo decks go over dredge so thats not an issue. But burn has ediloin against combo which is a hinderance... but infect wuns turn 3 through general hate... which I think is a real problem.
Im generally not for bans in modern. Infect has gotten pretty damn reliable with 1 free pump spell, 2 pump spells that do 4 or more pump for one, 3 different ways to give protection at 1 mana... its crazy how redundent the deck is and high powered its spells for its cost are.
Again, not for bannings, but the defence I used to give was infect wins turn 3 sometimes but loses to hate. Then become immence was a thing and it was infect wins turn 3 unleas you have hate. Now with defence its infect wins turn 3, even sometimes through hate.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Hypothetically speaking, if Jace were to be unbanned then they would have to simultaneously announce his reprint in Modern Masters 2017 or prices would skyrocket and people would immediately rage at Wizards. From a price and accessibility standpoint Bloodbraid Elf and Stoneforge Mystic are more logical because they are so many copies out there already.
Personally speaking, I wouldn't mind either of those three regardless of price.
Liliana is arguably just as powerful as Jace (arguably) and BGx gets access to her. When I play Shardless, Liliana is very often more backbreaking for my opponent than Jace is. He dies to pretty much everything that kills other planeswalkers.
This would not make BGx die at all.
Yes, she is on the same powerlevel. And no, its an extremely safe ban. Prior to mircles getting access to things that just made aggro bad, people were doing stuff like siding out jace against zoo.
ZOO. Naya Zoo... That deck that casts one creature a turn, and turns them sidewise... Jace doesnt win vs anything modern has which is vastly better. You dont really need bloodbraid to keep jace in check... affinity, burn, suicide zoo, dredge, infect... All of these decks would laugh at a turn 4 jace and say "Oh thought you had a wrath. Nevermind. GG I win.
You could unban Jace under the argument that he doesn't further any of the issues with the format's speed, I agree. Plenty of decks will view him as a dead card in their opponents hand. The issue is that he doesn't lead to good games of magic...when you're at parity he's great but when you're ahead he's freaking back breaking. He doesn't close out the game like Nahiri though, he just durdles and rewards you for just playing magic with no counter play. He is just a massive roadblock that even when answered gains the controller a metric ton of time to develop with. Nahiri will close a game out in 3 turns...the door more or less shut, but you interact with her (damage, dreadbore, etc) and you slow your opponent down significantly. Jace requires a lot of resources to deal with on most board states.
Good luck crawling back into a game after I answered your 1-2 threats and stick a Jace. Good luck not going not going to time in grindier games. Good luck having control have ANY sort of consistency issues post T4, which impacts other printings.
Jace would be absurd as a 2-4 of in turns...could you imagine...
I'd rather focus on fixed versions then mess around with unbans. WotC needs to print more varied and wide hate for socifc archetypes that are resticted in nature enough that combo wouldn't immediately jam 4 of them imo. I don't mean to sound like a hypocrite but there isn't a board state that Jace is bad in. If he resolves he's going to be doing something relevant most of the time. That's too wide imo.
I'm not sure what the answer is to the format's speed and goodfishing, but Jace feels like a too heavy a swing in the other direction without actually addressing the issue. Will he be played? Sure. Is he going to break the format? No probably not. Is he the kind of card that needs to be showing up? No, I don't think so. He just offers too much resiliency and utility in one package imho.
I play with Jace in Legacy quite a bit. He is good but hardly gamebreaking.
And yes if we get to the late game and play Jace then the control deck is in a good position to win, but that is the point of playing control. Survive the early turns, stabilize, and drop your wincon.
Nahiri I just LOL slam on 4 after an Anger and you have two turns to go after her or kill me before I win.
Hearthstone has a good example. Hunter was a pretty meh class in hearthstone. They made a card that was just ABSURD. the deck then turned into this thing that won if you casted/drawed it, lost if you didnt.
Id rather have the overall powerlevel of the cards be a 7, rather than a deck fulled with 5s, and 2 10s.
I predict WotC bans/unbans something in January to shake up Modern and generate excitement for the next MM set.
Jace, the Mind Sculpter is unbanned
Cathartic Reunion is banned
Glistener Elf is banned
Jace is IMO a clearly safe unban for many reasons already discussed across the internet at this point.
Dredge is getting up there in power level and feels kind of broken. I wouldn't even be surprised at a second ban from it but Cathartic Reunion will slow it down while leaving the deck around.
Banning Glistener Elf puts a major damper on Infect, which is among the fastest decks in the format. It does leave options for the deck though.. just not blisteringly fast ones.
Giving control a toy and slowing the format's fastest decks would generate a lot of buzz and interest in brewing to see what's viable in the new environment. I do worry about Tron getting too strong without Infect to beat it, but we'll see. Part of me wonders if they'd go back on Splinter Twin but I feel like it wouldn't happen so soon. The meta today isn't exactly the result of Splinter Twin disappearing - it's also the result of several new tools being printed to help already fast linear decks.
Better sales for MM17 will be the main driver but I would actually like to explore a format that would result from this.
UBRGrixis Kiki Control
BGUSultai Shadow
GWRBushwhacker Zoo
EDH:
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
GWU Roon of the Hidden Realm
You've been traumatized by multiple bans already and you're oversensitive to the idea of another. Revealed in your sig.
I really believe something like this would benefit more players than it hurts. Definitely extinguish the "nothing but linear aggro" we're all seeing in the most played decks and drum up interest for MM17.
IDK exactly what they'll do, but I feel something coming.
UBRGrixis Kiki Control
BGUSultai Shadow
GWRBushwhacker Zoo
EDH:
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
GWU Roon of the Hidden Realm
And in the most recent gp there was 2 in the top 64 with a grand total of 3 sideboard cards on average per deck to keep it down.
People freaking out about dredge need to relax. The data doesnt support your agruement especially when you compare it to infects meta % and top spot numbers
I don't think a kicker is the correct option. You just make an extremely good spell at that rate, its a 2 mana conditional spell you can insure doesnt go bad later in the game. That doesnt work. You need to make its powerlevel consistant. Either make it a hard counter with a draw back, or make it a conditonal counterspell, not good no matter what stage of the game spell.
I agree. I can't stand Dredge as a deck. But their is reasonable hate for it. The problem is that the sideboard is getting crowded. Perhaps it's time for modern to move to an 18 card sideboard?
15 isn't a round number...so what are you talking about? 18 is perfectly viable and could actually happen and it would benefit fair decks the most the linear decks by definition can't shave too many cards lest they risk losing all the power and speed that they brought to the table. And adding 3 sideboard slots would be a real help but not insane.
I think the reality is that sideboards will always feel constrained in a wide format. The economy of sideboard slots is a feature, not a bug. It is part of the challenge in metagaming to use the sideboard wisely. Feature, not bug imo.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG