The reasoning behind Phyrexian mana being a problem is the cards are just a problem. LSV said it best on stream when he said 'Nothing good ever comes of a deck running Gitaxian probe.'
What's wrong with URx Delver?
Between decks getting color pie breaking removal (Dismember), the aforementioned Gitaxian Probe, and Mutagenic nonsense, I think the format might head towards a better direction without cards that thrive on degeneracy. Again, no deck is breaking any current rules with these, I DO NOT have substantive proof and metagame share numbers to back up this opinion, it's just that, an opinion.
Dismember is no more "color pie breaking" than artifacts are, really. Also, what's wrong with the card in terms of impact on the format? The mere fact non-Black decks can run it? It seems more like a check for potential degeneracy.
I think *ultimately* what I'm getting at is WOTC needs to either actually curate the card pool and be more conservative with bans to keep power levels in check between subsets of the metagame, or they need to let the whole thing go nuts. This is what made Twin and Pod players go so crazy - their decks were better performing than many busted decks sure, but they themselves weren't busted which leads to tons of feel bads in the playerbase. Many of us are spending 100s to 1000s to play in this format and I think that should count for something.
I GET why a Twin player who had their deck banned on a Friday and then get turn 3'd by Infect (or Amulet, or Eldrazi, or DSZ, or w/e) the very next week would have a problem. Banning on individual deck metagame shares except for the most extreme cases (Treasure Cruise Delver, Eldrazi) leaves people feeling very dissatisfied.
These statements are at odds with each other. Birthing Pod decks actually had a higher meta share than Treasure Cruise Delver did. If Treasure Cruise was an extreme case, then Birthing Pod was an even more extreme one (though I have heard arguments made that Birthing Pod's success was the result of Treasure Cruise warping the metagame, and the removal of Treasure Cruise would have fixed it). Though obviously neither comes close to Eldrazi.
I'm not really seeing a solid reason to ban any of the phyrexian spells aside from the already on the ban list. While I completely agree that Phyrexian mana was design mistake they really haven't done anything overly busted in Modern. Hell, as a Delver player I am glad we have access to Gitaxian Probe or poor Young Pyromancer would see even less play than he does now.
Arguing for the ban of all Phyrexian spells is sort of like arguing for the ban of all Delve spells, or removing all of 8th and 9th edition; you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater and WotC is never going to do it.
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In play: Jund Death Shadow, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Stompy, Ponza
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
thats literally legacy, why not just try that format?
These responses need to be infracted. They really do, why should anyone have to justify their choice of playing Modern. The Modern community solution should not be to shove people into a format which costs over twice as much, and isn't a supported PPTQ/PTQ format.
These responses are complete garbage, and I feel the moderators of this forum need to start infracting these types of posts which shove people outside the community. Although the original quote is unrealistic, and highly unlikely, resorting to responses like this show a lack of integrity and knowledge.
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thats literally legacy, why not just try that format?
These responses need to be infracted. They really do, why should anyone have to justify their choice of playing Modern. The Modern community solution should not be to shove people into a format which costs over twice as much, and isn't a supported PPTQ/PTQ format.
These responses are complete garbage, and I feel the moderators of this forum need to start infracting these types of posts which shove people outside the community. Although the original quote is unrealistic, and highly unlikely, resorting to responses like this show a lack of integrity and knowledge.
I mean, those cards would cause the same price barrier, its just when people suggest stuff like this they are LITERALLY describing legacy. I am not one to typically go for this, but that response was beyond pointless. If anything, that post should be infracted, half of those cards have nothing to do with the banlist, and comments like that add nothing to discussion. Now please, instead of quoting me in underlines, pm me in the future or report my post instead of being confrontational in the thread
Edit: also, in no way did i say "just quit modern", i simply suggested a format that loterally caters to his needs exactly
thats literally legacy, why not just try that format?
These responses need to be infracted. They really do, why should anyone have to justify their choice of playing Modern. The Modern community solution should not be to shove people into a format which costs over twice as much, and isn't a supported PPTQ/PTQ format.
These responses are complete garbage, and I feel the moderators of this forum need to start infracting these types of posts which shove people outside the community. Although the original quote is unrealistic, and highly unlikely, resorting to responses like this show a lack of integrity and knowledge.
I think a lot of Modern players play Modern specifically over Legacy because it is not a Blue dominated format. When anyone alludes to even the slightest change in Modern to a more "Blue-centric" format, they take it personally.
I cannot say that I am not to blame as well because when I hear people clamoring for bans of Combo type cards and unbans of every "fair" Midrange type card, it reeks of Standard to me and I'm not afraid to say it. ("If you want to play Midrange vs. Midrange, you can play Standard." is something I've said here before, mostly as a defense mechanism to loving the ability to play Combo in the Modern format, even if at Tier 2.
That being said, I personally am fine with the following cards that he mentioned - Counterspell, Baleful Strix, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I think that Back to Basics would be interesting as well, but with some of the backlash I've seen Choke receive (someone even said it should be banned here in this thread ), I doubt it should be legal. If believing that those cards are fine in Modern makes me an animal, then so be it.
*Also I should point out that if you take out Mental Misstep, which is banned in Legacy and Baleful Strix, each of the other following cards can be played in the Miracles Legacy deck (although Back to Basics is a meta call).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
That being said, I personally am fine with the following cards that he mentioned - Counterspell, Baleful Strix, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I think that Back to Basics would be interesting as well, but with some of the backlash I've seen Choke receive (someone even said it should be banned here in this thread ), I doubt it should be legal. If believing that those cards are fine in Modern makes me an animal, then so be it.
I also agree with these, but 2/3rds of those sre for another thread, we have aoready had this thread locked once, id prefer to have my daily mtg entertainment unlocked
thats literally legacy, why not just try that format?
These responses need to be infracted. They really do, why should anyone have to justify their choice of playing Modern. The Modern community solution should not be to shove people into a format which costs over twice as much, and isn't a supported PPTQ/PTQ format.
These responses are complete garbage, and I feel the moderators of this forum need to start infracting these types of posts which shove people outside the community. Although the original quote is unrealistic, and highly unlikely, resorting to responses like this show a lack of integrity and knowledge.
Report it and move on. The mods are good about getting on it.
Who got the first thread locked anyways? He must have said quite a few forbidden things that Modern players don't want to hear. Personally I don't mind Modern but it's not my favorite format either. I do understand why it exists though. I've been neutral about Modern, but it's not something I could see myself playing extensively in its current state for fun.
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If you want your 1-drops to ever resolve, you have to play Mental Misstep to counter theirs. If you choose to not play 1-drops, you are at a great disadvantage because you can't use your first turn and not play Bolts, Paths etc and still have to play Mental Misstep to try and make up for it somehow.
In essence, it really isn't about wanting to play Misstep or not. You just have to. It's that simple. In any case, this card is the definition of format warping. A little deceleration would be great, but not at any cost.
(BTW, imagine the price of Misstep - the Modern Prices thread would explode...)
I understand what misstep would do to the format. I am simply pointing out that given the complaints and the available options on the B&R list; misstep would actually do something to correct it. It would slow the format down and force interaction.
I don't think Twin or BBE would have any affect on the problems people have with fast aggro. Twin has always pressured decks like Infect to try and kill as quick as possible, BBE is to slow most the time and is really a beater in the mid-range mirrors.
I also really don't care much about the cost of misstep and that seems like a unimportant point to make. Look at the cost of Gophy LotV etc... any highly played card in the format is going to cost a bit more and $10 is actually rather reasonable for a chase uncommon in modern.
I think that people are to fast to apply this false equivalence with the outcome of Legacy to Modern. Legacy is a format defined by 1 drops the average converted mana cost in the format is 1.5; This is not true of Modern. I like you little list of some of the one drops that could be countered but it pales when compared to the list of highly played Modern cards that misstep would have any function against. To be honest I wouldn't mind being able to counter a T1 IoK or thoughtseize and not having my hand completely wrecked, I also wouldn't mind being able to put the breaks on dredge game one by countering a Looting or other 1cc enabler, also countering Map or Strings would be very helpful against Tron or Eldrazi.
Misstep is a design mistake that would make the format more lottery feeling than it already does. DSZ and Infect don't need more free ways to protect their creatures from the few efficient removal spells we have in the format.
Horrible idea all around.
MM is indefensible from basically every angle and is the opposite of what we want to encourage in this format going forward.
Actually you read what it was designed to do it does that, gives non-blue decks access to a powerful counterspell. The only thing that it did that wasn't intended was push more players in legacy into blue than already were their.
But its cute that you blindly accept conventional wisdom as the gospel. Twin will never be unbanned, BBE will never be unbanned, in fact by your standard this entire thread is pointless given that by virtue of WotC placing a card on the banned list it must be a design mistake of some kind and should remain banned.
AV was put on the list at the same time as Misstep and it was thought that it would be super oppressive I know i put a link to the justifications that wizards gave for the axiom banned list but who cares about the actual reasons they are banned when you can just make up stuff and pretend like your so wise by shutting down any actual debate and discussion.
Reporting and moving on is the correct thing to do. We are aware of how bad this thread got a week ago and are watching it. It does sometimes take a few hours.
I am going to be totally blunt with you- The problem with Mental Misstep is that it counters itself. If it was two Phyrexian Blue, this wouldn't be an issue, but it means it CAN'T be an answer for Infect/Death's Shadow, because they'll be running it as well and they'll make even better use of it. It loads the graveyard for Become Immense, lowers life total for Death's Shadow, and hard counters Path to Exile, which is the best answer for their decks (and has a hidden mode of redirecting and reducing damage from bolts)
I was just mulling over this yesterday, and realized Force of Will wouldn't HELP against Infect- It'd give Infect an out to removal, for free, so they have shields up the turn they combo out. Do you really want to try facing infect when they're coming in at you with a Blighted Agent with Spellskite AND Force of Will for protection? You're going to need like, an instant speed uncounterable wrath or something.
In short, we don't want free counterspells in the format (barring Shoal, which is a very balanced but clunky option), because it just makes the degenerate decks maintain their prior speed and gain even better resiliency.
What we need is some sort of countermagic that deliberately slows the game down, not something that can be effortlessly splashed into any deck. Hell, something like "1U Instant: Counter target spell. Its controller puts a 0/3 Wall token with defender into play" would be a huge boon. (Though speaking of which, Swan Song is really close to what we need, but a bit too narrow)
I agree that it would give every deck protection against 1cc spells, i disagree that it would speed them up. the difference between MM and Probe is that MM is dead in the hand if you are not casting something it can target. This would give Jund better game against them being that Terminate and AD would blank it and it would slow down Become Immense and Swiftspear triggers. They would have to slow down their deck to include it and this is exactly the issue people have with those decks that they are to quick and don't interact with you. It would force them to slow down and interact.
I agree that i would rather WotC print better counterspells but that isn't going to happen given the design trends since Lorwyn block. The idea that we don't want cards that just go into anything I think isn't very justifiable as we already have IoK and Thoughtsieze pushing any deck that wants to have any chance at controlling the opponent into black at least MM doesn't force you to splash a color to have some early game plays. Also I don't like the example people use of they will just counter your's; okay does this mean that my Infect/DSZ opponent is going to mull to 5 or 4 just to have a MM in hand? good then terminate AD become much better.
This isn't Legacy and we don't have FoW to push MM over the top.
I'm only pointing out that MM is the only card on the B&R list that actually forces the game to slow down the way people seem to be so desperate for. Twin actually incentives decks like Infect and DRZ to play as quickly as possible to avoid a T4 combo kill and is really better against Tron and RGshift decks. BBE sits in your hand the same as other 4cc spells while your aggro opponent keeps playing at a blistering speed.
Every once in awhile someone comes through here thinking they have some brand new idea that will save all of us from our modern woes, then suggests something very ridiculous, backs it up with nothing but hypothetical arguments, then dissappears until the next b&r announcement. Fetch land bans are very popular choices here, as well as stuff like jitte unban
This is what I've been noticing in this game lately as well. It's fine to have affinity infect and burn for example in this game as they can be hated out and disruption does well vs them. But when decks like valakut,eldrazi stifle fair urx and bgx( which police the super fast decks) you have only 1 option, to race. I think temple needs to go and heck maayyyybe even eventually valakut or tron. These decks are not good for the game as they are what encourage the racing we are currently seeing.
You know, i was just thinking about this last night. We saw a sharp increase in bant eldrazi and valakut, immediately followed by a sharp increase in affinity, infect, deaths shadow, etc, decks that are typically bad matchups for those decks.
My one thing here is that this is part of a healthy cyclical meta, at the start we saw a huge surge of fair decks, then a surge of bant eldrazi and valakut, followed by a surge of linearity. We have really only been in the linear part of this cycle for 1 big tournament, we should see a push back towards fair decks to fight the aggro. If we dont see this come January, that would indeed be a sign that eldrazi and valakut are indeed suppressing fair decks and maintaining the linear meta (and coincidentally prove the JTMS theory true). Its tough because these decks dont break any format rules.
People don't think of them as mid-range but they are. The problem is that pure control is to weak to ever knock these decks down; which breaks the actual cycle of the meta leaving us with one in which the over the top mid-range decks can continue to prey on the smaller ones and aggro forces pressure to deal with the bigger mid-range decks putting smaller mid-range decks like Jund in the position of struggling to beat both.
In my opinion, Eldrazi temple is an issue. Decks like Abzan CoCo, Bant Knightfall rely on playing 6-8 mana dorks to increase their chances of playing ahead of curve. This also goes for simian spirit guide combo decks. Including these cards are real opportunity costs in deck building. Drawing these cards at a bad time is downright horrible.
Eldrazi temple as a card has no opportunity cost in deck building. Cannot be easily interacted with unlike bolting a bird. Top-decking temples doesn't matter because they are lands that you would be playing regardless. There is no drawback whatsoever. Eldrazi like TKS and smasher are already highly pushed in terms of power but allowing their mana costs to be easily cheated is pretty ridiculous.
Look at reality smasher for example. 5 cmc, 5/5, haste trample. About on par with thundermaw hellkite which is fringe playable. Tack on built-in pseudo protection, which is already pushing it pretty far. AND can come down as early as turn 3 just from lands.
T3 thundermaw is also possible, but requires you to spend your 1st 2 turns playing mana dorks and hoping they don't get killed. The difference between the 2 is huge.
TL;DR : Fast mana with no drawback/opportunity cost is a problem.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I disagree. None of the elves, goblins, merfolk, robots and whatever are playable on their own as singular cards. Their power comes from a reliant on tribal synergy and the way the cards work with each other. Eldrazi requires no such thing. Their power comes from being overly efficient, value creatures being played for less than their casting cost.
Matter Reshaper, Eldrazi Displacer, TKS, Smasher and drowner are all perfectly fine and balanced cards even without Eldrazi temple.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I disagree. None of the elves, goblins, merfolk, robots and whatever are playable on their own as singular cards. Their power comes from a reliant on tribal synergy and the way the cards work with each other. Eldrazi requires no such thing. Their power comes from being overly efficient, value creatures being played for less than their casting cost.
Matter Reshaper, Eldrazi Displacer, TKS, Smasher and drowner are all perfectly fine and balanced cards even without Eldrazi temple.
You must be having a really hard time with Eldrazi. Eldrazi Temple is only a 4-of in a 60 card deck. It doesn't guarantee anything. Without the temple, the Eldrazi spells would be useless. It is nowhere near ban-worthy.
I disagree. None of the elves, goblins, merfolk, robots and whatever are playable on their own as singular cards. Their power comes from a reliant on tribal synergy and the way the cards work with each other. Eldrazi requires no such thing. Their power comes from being overly efficient, value creatures being played for less than their casting cost.
Matter Reshaper, Eldrazi Displacer, TKS, Smasher and drowner are all perfectly fine and balanced cards even without Eldrazi temple.
You must be having a really hard time with Eldrazi. Eldrazi Temple is only a 4-of in a 60 card deck. It doesn't guarantee anything. Without the temple, the Eldrazi spells would be useless. It is nowhere near ban-worthy.
If you banned Temple TKS Smasher would still see play, they are strong enough on their own. I mean before Eldrazi winter happened people were talking about BGcolorless to fit those two into the Rock shell. I'm not sure if you saying that all the creatures would be "useless" or just the actual instant and sorcery spells; because if your saying TKS and Smasher would be useless I'm pretty sure your wrong.
I disagree. None of the elves, goblins, merfolk, robots and whatever are playable on their own as singular cards. Their power comes from a reliant on tribal synergy and the way the cards work with each other. Eldrazi requires no such thing. Their power comes from being overly efficient, value creatures being played for less than their casting cost.
Matter Reshaper, Eldrazi Displacer, TKS, Smasher and drowner are all perfectly fine and balanced cards even without Eldrazi temple.
What?
There are many "overly efficient, value creautures" in the old tribes and they don't need any tribal support to take over games:
Goblins - Rabblemaster, Dark-Dwellers, Grenzo, Krenko, Guide, Siege-gang commander, Kiki-Jiki, Sharpshooter, Squee, Welder, Bushwhacker, Murderous Redcap.
Some of the Eldrazi cards are pushed, but this is what people want and WOTC needs to sell packs to stay in the business.
Ok let's talk about the ones that are actually modern legal cos this is about the modern format.
Rabblemaster - easily interacted with. Can be dealt with even before making a token. But have not seen this being played in modern.
Dark-dwellers - Fringe playable. ( Have encountered it in some builds of grixis/jund/boros )
Goblin Guide - goes in Tier 1 burn, Tier 2 bushwhacker zoo. Easily interacted with, has somewhat a drawback.
Sige-gang commander - Haven't seen this card played in my personal experience of 3 years playing the modern format.
Kiki-jiki - Fringe playable, part of a 2-card combo, easily killed.
Bushwhackers - next to useless without a board but potentially game winning.
Murderous redcap - part of a easily disrupted 3-card combo with a bunch of other sub-par cards.
hardly taking over any games.
Point is, all these cards have fair costs for their stats and what they do and can't have their mana costs cheated sans simian spirit guide.
But I think we are digressing.
Which brings me back to the point I was trying to make in my original post about Eldrazi temple. I should clarify that I do not think Eldrazi creatures are a problem, but Eldrazi creatures being consistently played earlier than they should be with no opportunity cost is a problem.
I think this is a major part of the 'blue problem' in modern. On top of cavern of souls, how do blue decks deal with undercosted, hard to kill fatties being played ahead of curve ?
Grixis/Jeskai already have decent to good matchups against the aggro decks like suicide zoo, infect, affinity.
Burn is decent for jeskai, poor for grixis.
Matchups against random tribal are decent.
Matchups against combo are decent.
Grixis/Jeskai match up pretty evenly against midrange decks like jund/abzan/CoCo swinging from slightly disadvantaged to slightly advantaged.
And completely ***** the bed against Eldrazi and tron variants.
I don't know if you've been to the Bant Eldrazi thread, but over there they hardly even care about the new ceremonious rejection
I think that taking down eldrazi a notch by hitting its consistency can open up space for Blue-based midrange/control decks to be a better choice in the modern.
By hitting the temple, Eldrazi can still be fast, but not as consistent by playing additional mana dorks like boreal druid which also brings them more in line with other GW-base midrange creature decks. The UXX-Eldrazi match up would be more even, hardly favourable by any means but more like 45-55 instead of 35-65.
Blue decks would then have more even match ups across the board, other than tron but you can't be good against everything anyway.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
@niallplaysmagic probe can be used efficiently to make pyromancer tokens or in the delver deck just to see what s going on and tempo, so i guees lsv was wrong.
My post's connection you missed was the following:
Phyrexian spells are used mainly on infect. You said you agree with the best of my post so? I mean if you ban mutagenic and probe then infect becomes a lot slower and its starting to lose a percentage of games vs the big 3 mana decks. This makes one person more reluctant to play interactive spells like bolt paths etc. I would play titanshift because the infect matchup would be a rare occasion since it would go tier 2 and it could really be even with 4 main deck bolts and two gutshots in the side and i would know that i could easily beat all of the fair decks.
IMO: Nerf/Ban infect => perfect recipe for big mana format.
Then we go into reban valakut, temple and tronlands discussions.
I think we are in a big mana/aggro format right now
Misstep is a design mistake that would make the format more lottery feeling than it already does. DSZ and Infect don't need more free ways to protect their creatures from the few efficient removal spells we have in the format.
Horrible idea all around.
MM is indefensible from basically every angle and is the opposite of what we want to encourage in this format going forward.
Actually you read what it was designed to do it does that, gives non-blue decks access to a powerful counterspell. The only thing that it did that wasn't intended was push more players in legacy into blue than already were their.
But its cute that you blindly accept conventional wisdom as the gospel. Twin will never be unbanned, BBE will never be unbanned, in fact by your standard this entire thread is pointless given that by virtue of WotC placing a card on the banned list it must be a design mistake of some kind and should remain banned.
AV was put on the list at the same time as Misstep and it was thought that it would be super oppressive I know i put a link to the justifications that wizards gave for the axiom banned list but who cares about the actual reasons they are banned when you can just make up stuff and pretend like your so wise by shutting down any actual debate and discussion.
Make your points without being rude. You think it's 'cute' that I think a degenerate mistake is a degenerate mistake? Neat.
Mental Misstep creates the MM lottery where WAY more decks than should run the card do, and turn ones often come down to who has more Missteps. This isn't some new revelation that I've taken as gospel from players older than me, it's simply a known commodity that the card does gross things to formats and increases the lottery nature that we already have a problem with.
I am new to this topic and maybe this question was covered earlier in the thread but here goes,
Why is vintage the only Magic format with a Restricted list?
It just seems like some of the problems Modern is experiencing could be addressed by reducing the copies of problematic cards in each deck.
Restricted lists increase variance. If one of the bigger Modern complaints concerns high-variance matchups and cards, a restricted list is the last thing you want.
Fast mana is a problem, but undercosted cards are fine???
If we start mass banning of badly designed cards or "crazy things from the past, from another time" stuff like Snapcaster, Bob, Tarmo, Lili of the Veil, Bolt, Rancor will also have to eat the banhammer for being undercosted or design mistake...
Guess what, this won't happen.
You may hate big mana decks, but another person may not like burn, prison, counterspells, discard or mill strategies.
You can't please everyone at the same time.
There's a *huge* difference between being competitively costed and not adhering to the basic rules of mana usage. Huuuuge.
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Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
Dismember is no more "color pie breaking" than artifacts are, really. Also, what's wrong with the card in terms of impact on the format? The mere fact non-Black decks can run it? It seems more like a check for potential degeneracy.
These statements are at odds with each other. Birthing Pod decks actually had a higher meta share than Treasure Cruise Delver did. If Treasure Cruise was an extreme case, then Birthing Pod was an even more extreme one (though I have heard arguments made that Birthing Pod's success was the result of Treasure Cruise warping the metagame, and the removal of Treasure Cruise would have fixed it). Though obviously neither comes close to Eldrazi.
Arguing for the ban of all Phyrexian spells is sort of like arguing for the ban of all Delve spells, or removing all of 8th and 9th edition; you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater and WotC is never going to do it.
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
thats literally legacy, why not just try that format?
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
These responses need to be infracted. They really do, why should anyone have to justify their choice of playing Modern. The Modern community solution should not be to shove people into a format which costs over twice as much, and isn't a supported PPTQ/PTQ format.
These responses are complete garbage, and I feel the moderators of this forum need to start infracting these types of posts which shove people outside the community. Although the original quote is unrealistic, and highly unlikely, resorting to responses like this show a lack of integrity and knowledge.
I mean, those cards would cause the same price barrier, its just when people suggest stuff like this they are LITERALLY describing legacy. I am not one to typically go for this, but that response was beyond pointless. If anything, that post should be infracted, half of those cards have nothing to do with the banlist, and comments like that add nothing to discussion. Now please, instead of quoting me in underlines, pm me in the future or report my post instead of being confrontational in the thread
Edit: also, in no way did i say "just quit modern", i simply suggested a format that loterally caters to his needs exactly
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I think a lot of Modern players play Modern specifically over Legacy because it is not a Blue dominated format. When anyone alludes to even the slightest change in Modern to a more "Blue-centric" format, they take it personally.
I cannot say that I am not to blame as well because when I hear people clamoring for bans of Combo type cards and unbans of every "fair" Midrange type card, it reeks of Standard to me and I'm not afraid to say it. ("If you want to play Midrange vs. Midrange, you can play Standard." is something I've said here before, mostly as a defense mechanism to loving the ability to play Combo in the Modern format, even if at Tier 2.
That being said, I personally am fine with the following cards that he mentioned - Counterspell, Baleful Strix, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I think that Back to Basics would be interesting as well, but with some of the backlash I've seen Choke receive (someone even said it should be banned here in this thread ), I doubt it should be legal. If believing that those cards are fine in Modern makes me an animal, then so be it.
*Also I should point out that if you take out Mental Misstep, which is banned in Legacy and Baleful Strix, each of the other following cards can be played in the Miracles Legacy deck (although Back to Basics is a meta call).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I also agree with these, but 2/3rds of those sre for another thread, we have aoready had this thread locked once, id prefer to have my daily mtg entertainment unlocked
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Report it and move on. The mods are good about getting on it.
I understand what misstep would do to the format. I am simply pointing out that given the complaints and the available options on the B&R list; misstep would actually do something to correct it. It would slow the format down and force interaction.
I don't think Twin or BBE would have any affect on the problems people have with fast aggro. Twin has always pressured decks like Infect to try and kill as quick as possible, BBE is to slow most the time and is really a beater in the mid-range mirrors.
I also really don't care much about the cost of misstep and that seems like a unimportant point to make. Look at the cost of Gophy LotV etc... any highly played card in the format is going to cost a bit more and $10 is actually rather reasonable for a chase uncommon in modern.
I think that people are to fast to apply this false equivalence with the outcome of Legacy to Modern. Legacy is a format defined by 1 drops the average converted mana cost in the format is 1.5; This is not true of Modern. I like you little list of some of the one drops that could be countered but it pales when compared to the list of highly played Modern cards that misstep would have any function against. To be honest I wouldn't mind being able to counter a T1 IoK or thoughtseize and not having my hand completely wrecked, I also wouldn't mind being able to put the breaks on dredge game one by countering a Looting or other 1cc enabler, also countering Map or Strings would be very helpful against Tron or Eldrazi.
Actually you read what it was designed to do it does that, gives non-blue decks access to a powerful counterspell. The only thing that it did that wasn't intended was push more players in legacy into blue than already were their.
But its cute that you blindly accept conventional wisdom as the gospel. Twin will never be unbanned, BBE will never be unbanned, in fact by your standard this entire thread is pointless given that by virtue of WotC placing a card on the banned list it must be a design mistake of some kind and should remain banned.
AV was put on the list at the same time as Misstep and it was thought that it would be super oppressive I know i put a link to the justifications that wizards gave for the axiom banned list but who cares about the actual reasons they are banned when you can just make up stuff and pretend like your so wise by shutting down any actual debate and discussion.
I agree that it would give every deck protection against 1cc spells, i disagree that it would speed them up. the difference between MM and Probe is that MM is dead in the hand if you are not casting something it can target. This would give Jund better game against them being that Terminate and AD would blank it and it would slow down Become Immense and Swiftspear triggers. They would have to slow down their deck to include it and this is exactly the issue people have with those decks that they are to quick and don't interact with you. It would force them to slow down and interact.
I agree that i would rather WotC print better counterspells but that isn't going to happen given the design trends since Lorwyn block. The idea that we don't want cards that just go into anything I think isn't very justifiable as we already have IoK and Thoughtsieze pushing any deck that wants to have any chance at controlling the opponent into black at least MM doesn't force you to splash a color to have some early game plays. Also I don't like the example people use of they will just counter your's; okay does this mean that my Infect/DSZ opponent is going to mull to 5 or 4 just to have a MM in hand? good then terminate AD become much better.
This isn't Legacy and we don't have FoW to push MM over the top.
I'm only pointing out that MM is the only card on the B&R list that actually forces the game to slow down the way people seem to be so desperate for. Twin actually incentives decks like Infect and DRZ to play as quickly as possible to avoid a T4 combo kill and is really better against Tron and RGshift decks. BBE sits in your hand the same as other 4cc spells while your aggro opponent keeps playing at a blistering speed.
I agree with this post generally. The problem is that Bant and Valakut are just stronger mid-range decks than BG/x and UR/x decks. http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/midrange-archetype-2007-03-26
People don't think of them as mid-range but they are. The problem is that pure control is to weak to ever knock these decks down; which breaks the actual cycle of the meta leaving us with one in which the over the top mid-range decks can continue to prey on the smaller ones and aggro forces pressure to deal with the bigger mid-range decks putting smaller mid-range decks like Jund in the position of struggling to beat both.
Eldrazi temple as a card has no opportunity cost in deck building. Cannot be easily interacted with unlike bolting a bird. Top-decking temples doesn't matter because they are lands that you would be playing regardless. There is no drawback whatsoever. Eldrazi like TKS and smasher are already highly pushed in terms of power but allowing their mana costs to be easily cheated is pretty ridiculous.
Look at reality smasher for example. 5 cmc, 5/5, haste trample. About on par with thundermaw hellkite which is fringe playable. Tack on built-in pseudo protection, which is already pushing it pretty far. AND can come down as early as turn 3 just from lands.
T3 thundermaw is also possible, but requires you to spend your 1st 2 turns playing mana dorks and hoping they don't get killed. The difference between the 2 is huge.
TL;DR : Fast mana with no drawback/opportunity cost is a problem.
Matter Reshaper, Eldrazi Displacer, TKS, Smasher and drowner are all perfectly fine and balanced cards even without Eldrazi temple.
You must be having a really hard time with Eldrazi. Eldrazi Temple is only a 4-of in a 60 card deck. It doesn't guarantee anything. Without the temple, the Eldrazi spells would be useless. It is nowhere near ban-worthy.
If you banned Temple TKS Smasher would still see play, they are strong enough on their own. I mean before Eldrazi winter happened people were talking about BGcolorless to fit those two into the Rock shell. I'm not sure if you saying that all the creatures would be "useless" or just the actual instant and sorcery spells; because if your saying TKS and Smasher would be useless I'm pretty sure your wrong.
Ok let's talk about the ones that are actually modern legal cos this is about the modern format.
Rabblemaster - easily interacted with. Can be dealt with even before making a token. But have not seen this being played in modern.
Dark-dwellers - Fringe playable. ( Have encountered it in some builds of grixis/jund/boros )
Goblin Guide - goes in Tier 1 burn, Tier 2 bushwhacker zoo. Easily interacted with, has somewhat a drawback.
Sige-gang commander - Haven't seen this card played in my personal experience of 3 years playing the modern format.
Kiki-jiki - Fringe playable, part of a 2-card combo, easily killed.
Bushwhackers - next to useless without a board but potentially game winning.
Murderous redcap - part of a easily disrupted 3-card combo with a bunch of other sub-par cards.
hardly taking over any games.
Point is, all these cards have fair costs for their stats and what they do and can't have their mana costs cheated sans simian spirit guide.
But I think we are digressing.
Which brings me back to the point I was trying to make in my original post about Eldrazi temple. I should clarify that I do not think Eldrazi creatures are a problem, but Eldrazi creatures being consistently played earlier than they should be with no opportunity cost is a problem.
I think this is a major part of the 'blue problem' in modern. On top of cavern of souls, how do blue decks deal with undercosted, hard to kill fatties being played ahead of curve ?
Grixis/Jeskai already have decent to good matchups against the aggro decks like suicide zoo, infect, affinity.
Burn is decent for jeskai, poor for grixis.
Matchups against random tribal are decent.
Matchups against combo are decent.
Grixis/Jeskai match up pretty evenly against midrange decks like jund/abzan/CoCo swinging from slightly disadvantaged to slightly advantaged.
And completely ***** the bed against Eldrazi and tron variants.
I don't know if you've been to the Bant Eldrazi thread, but over there they hardly even care about the new ceremonious rejection
I think that taking down eldrazi a notch by hitting its consistency can open up space for Blue-based midrange/control decks to be a better choice in the modern.
By hitting the temple, Eldrazi can still be fast, but not as consistent by playing additional mana dorks like boreal druid which also brings them more in line with other GW-base midrange creature decks. The UXX-Eldrazi match up would be more even, hardly favourable by any means but more like 45-55 instead of 35-65.
Blue decks would then have more even match ups across the board, other than tron but you can't be good against everything anyway.
decks playing:
none
Make your points without being rude. You think it's 'cute' that I think a degenerate mistake is a degenerate mistake? Neat.
Mental Misstep creates the MM lottery where WAY more decks than should run the card do, and turn ones often come down to who has more Missteps. This isn't some new revelation that I've taken as gospel from players older than me, it's simply a known commodity that the card does gross things to formats and increases the lottery nature that we already have a problem with.
Why is vintage the only Magic format with a Restricted list?
It just seems like some of the problems Modern is experiencing could be addressed by reducing the copies of problematic cards in each deck.
Restricted lists increase variance. If one of the bigger Modern complaints concerns high-variance matchups and cards, a restricted list is the last thing you want.
There's a *huge* difference between being competitively costed and not adhering to the basic rules of mana usage. Huuuuge.