We have reached new amazing levels in the ban list discussion as an MTG community.
Well done team.
I think it's more an argument against free spells. The only decks that really play GP is are the aggro-combo decks such as affinity and death shadow zoo.
For the record I think probe is fine in modern. It's just the classic case of someone misidentifying the problem card(s).
We have reached new amazing levels in the ban list discussion as an MTG community.
Well done team.
I think it's more an argument against free spells. The only decks that really play GP is are the aggro-combo decks such as affinity and death shadow zoo.
For the record I think probe is fine in modern. It's just the classic case of someone misidentifying the problem card(s).
It makes Delver even worse and Deaths Shadow and Infect would just replace them with Vines/Apostles Blessing or something. Probe is not an offending card.
There is an argument to it that Probe does lead to much quicker games, allowing you to play a 56 card deck thus raising consistency, enabling delve, while also removing the bluff factor where infect/death's shadow/suicide bloo can go all in without having to play around possible removal, meaning that infect for example sometimes wins on turn 3 instead of turn 4 leaving protection up.
If anything were to be banned from Infect in the near future I'd actually put my money on either probe or mutagenic, since both those cards are played in the 3 aforementioned "busted" turn 3 decks, I doubt we'll see any changes in January though.
If anything from Infect is going to be banned, it is Become Immense. There is already a precedent for banning Delve cards, and this is seemingly the most broken one still allowed.
If anything from Dredge is going to be banned, it is likely going to be Golgari Grave-Troll. None of the draw spells or creatures are particularly overpowered if you aren't drawing/milling cards at a 6:1 ratio. That being said, it would be pretty awkward to have to re-ban a card they recently unbanned...
As for unbans, I think Preordain is very safe, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Bloodbraid Elf are moderately safe. I also think the Artifact Lands might be okay, but I'd need to think some more about that.
Conflagrate is a laughable ban at its best. It's primarily an answer, even if it fits the dredge agenda of the deck. this card is nowhere near to bannable. Cathartic Reunion is a not a good target, either because red's colour pie will give us similar cards in the future. We surely can't ban them every time. Prized Amalgam is not a good target either, because this creature was printed to fill the flavour of the set. It was not printed as a Draft, Standard, or Modern reasons. We are going to see other similar Amalgams in the future, for sure.
If one wants to hit Dredge, he should go for either Faithless Looting or mainly Golgari Grave-Troll.
January, 16:
Bans: No bans
Unbans: Unban something(possibley Preordain but this has to be tested out)
GGT ban just does nothing. Amalgam ban would kill dredge. If anything the have to ban one of the loot effects (Reunion or faithless; again here your argument for cartatic applies to faithless as well) or maybe conflag. In my opinion Carthatic Reunion would be the safest bet (dredge could replace it with tormenting voice and would just loose a bt of speed).
That all said im not sure if a ban is really necessary
GGT DEFINITELY does something. Forcing them on Golgari thug means that they are a lot slower at getting through their deck. I think it's a smart ban because dredge stays a tier 1 deck but gets slowed down a bit.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Conflagrate is a laughable ban at its best. It's primarily an answer, even if it fits the dredge agenda of the deck. this card is nowhere near to bannable. Cathartic Reunion is a not a good target, either because red's colour pie will give us similar cards in the future. We surely can't ban them every time. Prized Amalgam is not a good target either, because this creature was printed to fill the flavour of the set. It was not printed as a Draft, Standard, or Modern reasons. We are going to see other similar Amalgams in the future, for sure.
If one wants to hit Dredge, he should go for either Faithless Looting or mainly Golgari Grave-Troll.
January, 16:
Bans: No bans
Unbans: Unban something(possibley Preordain but this has to be tested out)
GGT ban just does nothing. Amalgam ban would kill dredge. If anything the have to ban one of the loot effects (Reunion or faithless; again here your argument for cartatic applies to faithless as well) or maybe conflag. In my opinion Carthatic Reunion would be the safest bet (dredge could replace it with tormenting voice and would just loose a bt of speed).
That all said im not sure if a ban is really necessary
You are right that this argument applies to Faitless Looting as well. But are we ever going to get a different looter at 1 mana in type 2? As freaking good as Faithless Looting? If yes, Lootings should not be a target at all.
Golgari Grave-Troll slows the deck down. At the same time, Dredge is less consistent. They rely solely on their other Dredgers. This should be the ideal ban IMO.
To answer your question, there is no way they print a same or better version of faithless looting. could possibly be a reprint in standard if they bring back the flashback mechanic in a set. Cathartic Reunion is about as good as it will get as long as MTG stays creature centric.
Looting is good in and out of dredge. It's like a mini powered-down brainstorm that leaves you a card behind. Great filter spell. Reunion only see's play in dredge so banning that would be very safe and wouldn't kill dredge.
I've been saying it for a couple weeks now...if they don't ban reunion, then they owe treasure cruise an apology. It is every bit as powerful in dredge that cruise was for delver decks. Objectively, cruise is the better card for modern as it is usually 1-2 mana draw three instant speed. But subjectively, reunion plus GGT or S-Imp is borderline broken for the dredge deck.
Banning Amalgum would simply remove dredge from tier 1(possibly tier 2). There was dredge before with vengevine. To my knowledge, Amalgam is what started people playing dredge again.
If anything from Infect is going to be banned, it is Become Immense. There is already a precedent for banning Delve cards, and this is seemingly the most broken one still allowed.
If anything from Dredge is going to be banned, it is likely going to be Golgari Grave-Troll. None of the draw spells or creatures are particularly overpowered if you aren't drawing/milling cards at a 6:1 ratio. That being said, it would be pretty awkward to have to re-ban a card they recently unbanned...
As for unbans, I think Preordain is very safe, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Bloodbraid Elf are moderately safe. I also think the Artifact Lands might be okay, but I'd need to think some more about that.
Have you lost your mind? Where do I start. First, preordain IMO should stay banned. It would make combo decks even better as it's a strict upgrade over both slide of hand and serum visions. I agree with Ryan Overturf that the card Opt would be the best compromise. Helps delver decks without making them broken and combo decks like to get deeper so the scry 1 isn't enough for them.
JTMS I could see give a test unban and announcing it as such. Basically "hey we're unbanning this but if it proves to be broke, we will ban again.(IMO the better card to unban is Stone Blade Mystic and is safer).
I personally think Cascade is a broken mechanic, especially when stapled on a 3/2 haste body. It would be in Jund so so it's not like you're going to hit any ad nauseum level spells but IMO going BBE into free LotV or Goyf feels broken beyond the power level of modern. Plus, Jund doesn't need cards to unban. They are already an amazing deck.
And finally...seriously, unban artifact lands....have you ever played against affinity and seen how good darksteel citadel is for us. Now add 2-4 more that count as artifacts. As an affinity player, I am saying don't unban them because it would then be Affinity winter instead of eldrazi winter.
Conflagrate is a laughable ban at its best. It's primarily an answer, even if it fits the dredge agenda of the deck. this card is nowhere near to bannable. Cathartic Reunion is a not a good target, either because red's colour pie will give us similar cards in the future. We surely can't ban them every time. Prized Amalgam is not a good target either, because this creature was printed to fill the flavour of the set. It was not printed as a Draft, Standard, or Modern reasons. We are going to see other similar Amalgams in the future, for sure.
If one wants to hit Dredge, he should go for either Faithless Looting or mainly Golgari Grave-Troll.
January, 16:
Bans: No bans
Unbans: Unban something(possibley Preordain but this has to be tested out)
GGT ban just does nothing. Amalgam ban would kill dredge. If anything the have to ban one of the loot effects (Reunion or faithless; again here your argument for cartatic applies to faithless as well) or maybe conflag. In my opinion Carthatic Reunion would be the safest bet (dredge could replace it with tormenting voice and would just loose a bt of speed).
That all said im not sure if a ban is really necessary
You are right that this argument applies to Faitless Looting as well. But are we ever going to get a different looter at 1 mana in type 2? As freaking good as Faithless Looting? If yes, Lootings should not be a target at all.
Golgari Grave-Troll slows the deck down. At the same time, Dredge is less consistent. They rely solely on their other Dredgers. This should be the ideal ban IMO.
To answer your question, there is no way they print a same or better version of faithless looting. could possibly be a reprint in standard if they bring back the flashback mechanic in a set. Cathartic Reunion is about as good as it will get as long as MTG stays creature centric.
Looting is good in and out of dredge. It's like a mini powered-down brainstorm that leaves you a card behind. Great filter spell. Reunion only see's play in dredge so banning that would be very safe and wouldn't kill dredge.
I've been saying it for a couple weeks now...if they don't ban reunion, then they owe treasure cruise an apology. It is every bit as powerful in dredge that cruise was for delver decks. Objectively, cruise is the better card for modern as it is usually 1-2 mana draw three instant speed. But subjectively, reunion plus GGT or S-Imp is borderline broken for the dredge deck.
Banning Amalgum would simply remove dredge from tier 1(possibly tier 2). There was dredge before with vengevine. To my knowledge, Amalgam is what started people playing dredge again.
This is just straight up untrue. Cruise winter was extremely bad since delver had like 15 plus percentage of the meta. Dredge doesn't have this.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Conflagrate is a laughable ban at its best. It's primarily an answer, even if it fits the dredge agenda of the deck. this card is nowhere near to bannable. Cathartic Reunion is a not a good target, either because red's colour pie will give us similar cards in the future. We surely can't ban them every time. Prized Amalgam is not a good target either, because this creature was printed to fill the flavour of the set. It was not printed as a Draft, Standard, or Modern reasons. We are going to see other similar Amalgams in the future, for sure.
If one wants to hit Dredge, he should go for either Faithless Looting or mainly Golgari Grave-Troll.
January, 16:
Bans: No bans
Unbans: Unban something(possibley Preordain but this has to be tested out)
I'm curious why you dislike Conflagrate as a ban so much. Calling it primarily an answer is really missing the point that it's also great reach and an answer to most blockers. Losing conflagrate would force the deck to win through combat without being able to clear out the board.
Conflagrate is a laughable ban at its best. It's primarily an answer, even if it fits the dredge agenda of the deck. this card is nowhere near to bannable. Cathartic Reunion is a not a good target, either because red's colour pie will give us similar cards in the future. We surely can't ban them every time. Prized Amalgam is not a good target either, because this creature was printed to fill the flavour of the set. It was not printed as a Draft, Standard, or Modern reasons. We are going to see other similar Amalgams in the future, for sure.
If one wants to hit Dredge, he should go for either Faithless Looting or mainly Golgari Grave-Troll.
January, 16:
Bans: No bans
Unbans: Unban something(possibley Preordain but this has to be tested out)
I'm curious why you dislike Conflagrate as a ban so much. Calling it primarily an answer is really missing the point that it's also great reach and an answer to most blockers. Losing conflagrate would force the deck to win through combat without being able to clear out the board.
Because Conflagrate isn't the reason Dredge wins most games. Also why would you ban the only interactive part of the deck? If Dredge gets a ban (strong if as it's proven itself to be unwieldy with mulligans and vulnerable to the meta), it will be Amalgam that gets hit. Amalgam is the source of most of dredge's nut plays.
Conflagrate is a laughable ban at its best. It's primarily an answer, even if it fits the dredge agenda of the deck. this card is nowhere near to bannable. Cathartic Reunion is a not a good target, either because red's colour pie will give us similar cards in the future. We surely can't ban them every time. Prized Amalgam is not a good target either, because this creature was printed to fill the flavour of the set. It was not printed as a Draft, Standard, or Modern reasons. We are going to see other similar Amalgams in the future, for sure.
If one wants to hit Dredge, he should go for either Faithless Looting or mainly Golgari Grave-Troll.
January, 16:
Bans: No bans
Unbans: Unban something(possibley Preordain but this has to be tested out)
I'm curious why you dislike Conflagrate as a ban so much. Calling it primarily an answer is really missing the point that it's also great reach and an answer to most blockers. Losing conflagrate would force the deck to win through combat without being able to clear out the board.
Because Conflagrate isn't the reason Dredge wins most games. Also why would you ban the only interactive part of the deck? If Dredge gets a ban (strong if as it's proven itself to be unwieldy with mulligans and vulnerable to the meta), it will be Amalgam that gets hit. Amalgam is the source of most of dredge's nut plays.
The goal for most bans isn't to kill the deck entirely. Banning a card that helps the deck win almost all of it's games and can't really be replaced is a great way to kill the deck. Banning a less key card allows the deck to exist in a less powerful form.
Conflagrate may be dredge's interaction but it's almost always used to remove blockers (reducing the interaction against dredge) or to burn someone out (reducing the value of non graveyard hate interaction).
Conflagrate is a laughable ban at its best. It's primarily an answer, even if it fits the dredge agenda of the deck. this card is nowhere near to bannable. Cathartic Reunion is a not a good target, either because red's colour pie will give us similar cards in the future. We surely can't ban them every time. Prized Amalgam is not a good target either, because this creature was printed to fill the flavour of the set. It was not printed as a Draft, Standard, or Modern reasons. We are going to see other similar Amalgams in the future, for sure.
If one wants to hit Dredge, he should go for either Faithless Looting or mainly Golgari Grave-Troll.
January, 16:
Bans: No bans
Unbans: Unban something(possibley Preordain but this has to be tested out)
I'm curious why you dislike Conflagrate as a ban so much. Calling it primarily an answer is really missing the point that it's also great reach and an answer to most blockers. Losing conflagrate would force the deck to win through combat without being able to clear out the board.
Because Conflagrate isn't the reason Dredge wins most games. Also why would you ban the only interactive part of the deck? If Dredge gets a ban (strong if as it's proven itself to be unwieldy with mulligans and vulnerable to the meta), it will be Amalgam that gets hit. Amalgam is the source of most of dredge's nut plays.
The goal for most bans isn't to kill the deck entirely. Banning a card that helps the deck win almost all of it's games and can't really be replaced is a great way to kill the deck. Banning a less key card allows the deck to exist in a less powerful form.
If only they applied that logic to some of their past bannings.
Conflagrate is a laughable ban at its best. It's primarily an answer, even if it fits the dredge agenda of the deck. this card is nowhere near to bannable. Cathartic Reunion is a not a good target, either because red's colour pie will give us similar cards in the future. We surely can't ban them every time. Prized Amalgam is not a good target either, because this creature was printed to fill the flavour of the set. It was not printed as a Draft, Standard, or Modern reasons. We are going to see other similar Amalgams in the future, for sure.
If one wants to hit Dredge, he should go for either Faithless Looting or mainly Golgari Grave-Troll.
January, 16:
Bans: No bans
Unbans: Unban something(possibley Preordain but this has to be tested out)
I'm curious why you dislike Conflagrate as a ban so much. Calling it primarily an answer is really missing the point that it's also great reach and an answer to most blockers. Losing conflagrate would force the deck to win through combat without being able to clear out the board.
Because Conflagrate isn't the reason Dredge wins most games. Also why would you ban the only interactive part of the deck? If Dredge gets a ban (strong if as it's proven itself to be unwieldy with mulligans and vulnerable to the meta), it will be Amalgam that gets hit. Amalgam is the source of most of dredge's nut plays.
The goal for most bans isn't to kill the deck entirely. Banning a card that helps the deck win almost all of it's games and can't really be replaced is a great way to kill the deck. Banning a less key card allows the deck to exist in a less powerful form.
If only they applied that logic to some of their past bannings.
You are right. I was thinking of the reasoning they gave in the splinter twin announcement giving Kiki-Jiki as a replacement but I don't think anyone was expecting Kiki-Jiki to slide right into twin. Given the reasoning and bans they've given in the past it's unlikely they ban conflagrate. They probably won't ban anything from the deck for being too good and if they did GGT is probably their target.
If they consider dredge too hard to interact with would Conflagrate be a good target for a ban? Not necessarily a likely target for a ban
We have reached new amazing levels in the ban list discussion as an MTG community.
Well done team.
At least he doesn't want to ban Dispel, like some people in the Twin era
banning something from Dredge would be lame (like a reverse Wild Nacatl ban-unban), everybody wanted to see GGT unbanned because it was safe/useless like Ancestral Vision, and now it's 'dominating'. I think the problem is Dredge winning a lot of games 1, in addition to the fact that you either draw your hate or lose (kinda like Affinity), and you can't pack a good number of hate cards in your SB against a lot of must-SB matchups.
Deathrite Shaman could help fair decks in game 1, while decreasing the need for SB in post board games (because you already have something maindeck). Sadly, the days of DRS were unhealthy for the metagame, and it does speed up some decks in the format (remember those good old T2 Liliana?)
I'm a unban > ban guy. Modern needs its 'Force of Will'. Not a free counterspell, but a maindeckable kinda general (and maybe soft) answer. Maybe something with generic CMC (like Titan's Presence), maybe something with cycling 1, or a modal spell against a small array of nasty things... but that's something for the other thread
I think that any unban that would help decks with bad linear matchups can be safe
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
Quote from "Kakaroto" »
Quote from "Disco Stu" »
Podríamos hacer un topic donde marquemos los peores horrores de ortografía.
Oh don't get me wrong, all those cards are good at finding dark depths, but I don't think Tron would play it. In order for Depths to do anything you need to pay 30 mana, which, even when a tron deck is firing on all cylinders, would take 2-3 turns. The real danger is Stage + Depths. Legacy has 12 post and doesn't play depths in that regularly. Tron uses the same number of lands, but produces less mana. Dropping Karn, Ugin, Wurmcoil engine or one of the eldrazi is a much faster means to victory than melting down dark depths.
The current speed of the meta game wouldn't allow for that to happen anyway. Lets say ideally you have tron and depths naturally on turn 4, that means on turn 4, you could get 2 counters off. And lets say turns 5, 6, and 7 you draw your other 3 towers. That means, on turn 7 you would be able to make merit lage, with the best mana acceleration in modern. That is very slow in this format, and that assumes perfect mana acceleration draws. This all assumes your opponent doesn't have a fulminator mage, Path to Exile, Bounce spell, chump blocker, GQ, Blessed alliance, or any other means to stop Merit on Turn 7. Doesn't seem likely to me.
Cathartic Renunion: This recently printed card has given too much speed and consistancy to dredge based deck. The dredge deck attacks the format at an angle that is difficult to attack without specialised hate cards. And we feel the format is being warped by the strenght of the deck.
Become immense: We are committed to modern being a turn 4 format however two decks infect and Sucide Zoo have been two regularly breaking the turn 4 rule. By banning become immense we hope to weaken these decks most explosive draws giving players more time to interact. Delve spells have precident for being too strong for modern with treasure cruise and Dig through time, where filling the grave yard is easy to do.
Perhaps I am being too kind to dredge in banning the most reacently printed card that pushed it over the top instead of its key card GGT, but I hate seeing decks getting wiped out of existance I just want to knock them down again. Of course that runs the risk of them printing something so dumb again and breaking it all over again. Plus WotC is loath to ban recently printed cards.
Oh don't get me wrong, all those cards are good at finding dark depths, but I don't think Tron would play it. In order for Depths to do anything you need to pay 30 mana, which, even when a tron deck is firing on all cylinders, would take 2-3 turns. The real danger is Stage + Depths. Legacy has 12 post and doesn't play depths in that regularly. Tron uses the same number of lands, but produces less mana. Dropping Karn, Ugin, Wurmcoil engine or one of the eldrazi is a much faster means to victory than melting down dark depths.
The current speed of the meta game wouldn't allow for that to happen anyway. Lets say ideally you have tron and depths naturally on turn 4, that means on turn 4, you could get 2 counters off. And lets say turns 5, 6, and 7 you draw your other 3 towers. That means, on turn 7 you would be able to make merit lage, with the best mana acceleration in modern. That is very slow in this format, and that assumes perfect mana acceleration draws. This all assumes your opponent doesn't have a fulminator mage, Path to Exile, Bounce spell, chump blocker, GQ, Blessed alliance, or any other means to stop Merit on Turn 7. Doesn't seem likely to me.
I'm pretty sure Equinox means that Tron would run 1x Depths and 1x Stage as it already runs so many spells that tutor for lands.
I'm not sure Tron even needs that because their late game is already the best there is in modern.
All that said swap bans have never happened in modern before and I don't think they will ever happen. Modern also already has a rather difficult time dealing with lands (as we have seen with AmuletBloom banned, Eldrazi Winter and Valakut decks being pretty good again).
As long as we don't get something better than Ghost Quarter, Dephts will never see the light of day in modern.
Perhaps I am being too kind to dredge in banning the most reacently printed card that pushed it over the top instead of its key card GGT, but I hate seeing decks getting wiped out of existance I just want to knock them down again. Of course that runs the risk of them printing something so dumb again and breaking it all over again. Plus WotC is loath to ban recently printed cards.
I`m torn. On one hand I agree with you, I hate it when they just eliminate a deck completely. On the other hand, this is Dredge we`re talking about, a tier 1 combo deck that dissuades players from trying to interact, eats sideboard slots, turns games into sideboard card vs. sideboard card lotteries and bumps graveyard hate so high that a lot of other decks become significantly worse or unplayable as collateral damage. I honestly feel like the deck degrades the format, and I want it off the face of the earth; not so much because of its power level as its warping effect on the format.
Infect, on the other hand, I feel is on the other side of this spectrum. This is a deck that forces players to interact, and is possible to interact with using regular, commonly played magic cards. The deck is immensely powerful, yes, but it is more powerful right now because Dredge is doing well. The decks that are good against Infect, lose to Dredge because Bolts and Mana Leaks don`t do enough against Dredge. Eliminating Dredge will give Infect a minor, but not insignificant decline.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
basically they support my views: remove 8th and 9th, BAN ggt, become immense, mox opal, ssg , primeval titan.
-want control to be good in modern? ban these cards.
-want the format to be slower and less linear? ban these cards.
-tired of waiting for better generic answers(fow, counterspell) to enter through standard that never will? ban these cards
do these bans match ban crieria? no, but this is more of a overhaul of the format which is needed if we want the above.
I disagree with the fetch land idea however, having multi coloured sideboard options is one of our ways of combating linearity.
basically they support my views: remove 8th and 9th, BAN ggt, become immense, mox opal, ssg , primeval titan. want control to be good in modern? ban these cards. want the format to be slower and less linear? ban these cards.
do these bans match ban crieria? no, but this is more of a overhaul of the format which is needed if we want the above.
I think if you banned out Blood Moon the fetch lands would need to go. Perfect mana shouldn't be a given and it would be easy to imagine 4-5 color good stuff decks just pushing most all other fair decks out. Blood Moon is really only a tuff card for 3+ color decks. No Blood Moon no fetches would be fair you would still have very good mana but not perfect and I think that would be a fair enough trade off. I've been on both sides of a Blood Moon lock and the only time I've been shut out of a game by it was playing Jund splashing white for lingering souls or 4 color gifts and imo being at risk of getting Blood Mooned out was a fair trade off for running essentially all of the most powerful individual cards in the format.
1)People are really mistaken about Dredge and how to control it. To the people that think the deck is alright. No, it isn't. It's an over-the-top deck much like Valakut or Tron, but it ALSO has the speed of Affinity. It attacks from an angle that the format is incapable of reliably beating it, especially answer-based decks. This deck is too unfair in the format at least as we stand right now.
Now that that's covered. What to ban you may ask? No, Cathartic Reunion is not the card you would ban. Before Reunion the deck was pretty good anyways. Reunion just gave it the little push to be broken. GGT is where we should start. By slowing the deck a bit, you take away the necesity of wiping the deck forever, but make it more inconsistent and slower, so hate cards actually do something, or even you can make a runaway victory without hate. I'm thinking of a deck like Affinity but with no need of so many SB slots. Prized Amalgam is 2nd option.
2) The CFB video about 8 cards we could ban is interesting, but IMO biased. How come Eldrazi Temple isn't Top 4? Maybe i'm pulling my tinfoil hat here but them not talking about Temple is a straight nod to Eldrazi Winter and how terribly those months were to competitive Modern.
This Januray announcement is one i'm really looking forward to. I'm nervous since we could see a change in the format. I think right now as we stand Dredge is no longer for this world and will get nerfed. Become Immense is perfectly in the red zone. The only line of thought they could take is that nerfing Infect is a big hole for Midrange and Control decks, and a nice boost to Over the top decks like Tron and Valakut.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I think it's more an argument against free spells. The only decks that really play GP is are the aggro-combo decks such as affinity and death shadow zoo.
For the record I think probe is fine in modern. It's just the classic case of someone misidentifying the problem card(s).
It makes Delver even worse and Deaths Shadow and Infect would just replace them with Vines/Apostles Blessing or something. Probe is not an offending card.
If anything were to be banned from Infect in the near future I'd actually put my money on either probe or mutagenic, since both those cards are played in the 3 aforementioned "busted" turn 3 decks, I doubt we'll see any changes in January though.
If anything from Dredge is going to be banned, it is likely going to be Golgari Grave-Troll. None of the draw spells or creatures are particularly overpowered if you aren't drawing/milling cards at a 6:1 ratio. That being said, it would be pretty awkward to have to re-ban a card they recently unbanned...
As for unbans, I think Preordain is very safe, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Bloodbraid Elf are moderately safe. I also think the Artifact Lands might be okay, but I'd need to think some more about that.
GGT DEFINITELY does something. Forcing them on Golgari thug means that they are a lot slower at getting through their deck. I think it's a smart ban because dredge stays a tier 1 deck but gets slowed down a bit.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
What do people have against Dismember ? If there is one thing modern DOESN'T need, it's removing good kill spells.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
To answer your question, there is no way they print a same or better version of faithless looting. could possibly be a reprint in standard if they bring back the flashback mechanic in a set. Cathartic Reunion is about as good as it will get as long as MTG stays creature centric.
Looting is good in and out of dredge. It's like a mini powered-down brainstorm that leaves you a card behind. Great filter spell. Reunion only see's play in dredge so banning that would be very safe and wouldn't kill dredge.
I've been saying it for a couple weeks now...if they don't ban reunion, then they owe treasure cruise an apology. It is every bit as powerful in dredge that cruise was for delver decks. Objectively, cruise is the better card for modern as it is usually 1-2 mana draw three instant speed. But subjectively, reunion plus GGT or S-Imp is borderline broken for the dredge deck.
Banning Amalgum would simply remove dredge from tier 1(possibly tier 2). There was dredge before with vengevine. To my knowledge, Amalgam is what started people playing dredge again.
Have you lost your mind? Where do I start. First, preordain IMO should stay banned. It would make combo decks even better as it's a strict upgrade over both slide of hand and serum visions. I agree with Ryan Overturf that the card Opt would be the best compromise. Helps delver decks without making them broken and combo decks like to get deeper so the scry 1 isn't enough for them.
JTMS I could see give a test unban and announcing it as such. Basically "hey we're unbanning this but if it proves to be broke, we will ban again.(IMO the better card to unban is Stone Blade Mystic and is safer).
I personally think Cascade is a broken mechanic, especially when stapled on a 3/2 haste body. It would be in Jund so so it's not like you're going to hit any ad nauseum level spells but IMO going BBE into free LotV or Goyf feels broken beyond the power level of modern. Plus, Jund doesn't need cards to unban. They are already an amazing deck.
And finally...seriously, unban artifact lands....have you ever played against affinity and seen how good darksteel citadel is for us. Now add 2-4 more that count as artifacts. As an affinity player, I am saying don't unban them because it would then be Affinity winter instead of eldrazi winter.
This is just straight up untrue. Cruise winter was extremely bad since delver had like 15 plus percentage of the meta. Dredge doesn't have this.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Thoughts?
As much as I want tron to have ANOTHER insane late game combo that's hard to interact with, I'm good on that. Expedition map, ancient stirrings and tolaria west makes dark depths way too good.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
I'm curious why you dislike Conflagrate as a ban so much. Calling it primarily an answer is really missing the point that it's also great reach and an answer to most blockers. Losing conflagrate would force the deck to win through combat without being able to clear out the board.
Because Conflagrate isn't the reason Dredge wins most games. Also why would you ban the only interactive part of the deck? If Dredge gets a ban (strong if as it's proven itself to be unwieldy with mulligans and vulnerable to the meta), it will be Amalgam that gets hit. Amalgam is the source of most of dredge's nut plays.
The goal for most bans isn't to kill the deck entirely. Banning a card that helps the deck win almost all of it's games and can't really be replaced is a great way to kill the deck. Banning a less key card allows the deck to exist in a less powerful form.
Conflagrate may be dredge's interaction but it's almost always used to remove blockers (reducing the interaction against dredge) or to burn someone out (reducing the value of non graveyard hate interaction).
If only they applied that logic to some of their past bannings.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
If they consider dredge too hard to interact with would Conflagrate be a good target for a ban? Not necessarily a likely target for a ban
At least he doesn't want to ban Dispel, like some people in the Twin era
banning something from Dredge would be lame (like a reverse Wild Nacatl ban-unban), everybody wanted to see GGT unbanned because it was safe/useless like Ancestral Vision, and now it's 'dominating'. I think the problem is Dredge winning a lot of games 1, in addition to the fact that you either draw your hate or lose (kinda like Affinity), and you can't pack a good number of hate cards in your SB against a lot of must-SB matchups.
Deathrite Shaman could help fair decks in game 1, while decreasing the need for SB in post board games (because you already have something maindeck). Sadly, the days of DRS were unhealthy for the metagame, and it does speed up some decks in the format (remember those good old T2 Liliana?)
I'm a unban > ban guy. Modern needs its 'Force of Will'. Not a free counterspell, but a maindeckable kinda general (and maybe soft) answer. Maybe something with generic CMC (like Titan's Presence), maybe something with cycling 1, or a modal spell against a small array of nasty things... but that's something for the other thread
I think that any unban that would help decks with bad linear matchups can be safe
Oh don't get me wrong, all those cards are good at finding dark depths, but I don't think Tron would play it. In order for Depths to do anything you need to pay 30 mana, which, even when a tron deck is firing on all cylinders, would take 2-3 turns. The real danger is Stage + Depths. Legacy has 12 post and doesn't play depths in that regularly. Tron uses the same number of lands, but produces less mana. Dropping Karn, Ugin, Wurmcoil engine or one of the eldrazi is a much faster means to victory than melting down dark depths.
The current speed of the meta game wouldn't allow for that to happen anyway. Lets say ideally you have tron and depths naturally on turn 4, that means on turn 4, you could get 2 counters off. And lets say turns 5, 6, and 7 you draw your other 3 towers. That means, on turn 7 you would be able to make merit lage, with the best mana acceleration in modern. That is very slow in this format, and that assumes perfect mana acceleration draws. This all assumes your opponent doesn't have a fulminator mage, Path to Exile, Bounce spell, chump blocker, GQ, Blessed alliance, or any other means to stop Merit on Turn 7. Doesn't seem likely to me.
Cathartic Renunion: This recently printed card has given too much speed and consistancy to dredge based deck. The dredge deck attacks the format at an angle that is difficult to attack without specialised hate cards. And we feel the format is being warped by the strenght of the deck.
Become immense: We are committed to modern being a turn 4 format however two decks infect and Sucide Zoo have been two regularly breaking the turn 4 rule. By banning become immense we hope to weaken these decks most explosive draws giving players more time to interact. Delve spells have precident for being too strong for modern with treasure cruise and Dig through time, where filling the grave yard is easy to do.
Perhaps I am being too kind to dredge in banning the most reacently printed card that pushed it over the top instead of its key card GGT, but I hate seeing decks getting wiped out of existance I just want to knock them down again. Of course that runs the risk of them printing something so dumb again and breaking it all over again. Plus WotC is loath to ban recently printed cards.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I'm pretty sure Equinox means that Tron would run 1x Depths and 1x Stage as it already runs so many spells that tutor for lands.
I'm not sure Tron even needs that because their late game is already the best there is in modern.
All that said swap bans have never happened in modern before and I don't think they will ever happen. Modern also already has a rather difficult time dealing with lands (as we have seen with AmuletBloom banned, Eldrazi Winter and Valakut decks being pretty good again).
As long as we don't get something better than Ghost Quarter, Dephts will never see the light of day in modern.
Infect, on the other hand, I feel is on the other side of this spectrum. This is a deck that forces players to interact, and is possible to interact with using regular, commonly played magic cards. The deck is immensely powerful, yes, but it is more powerful right now because Dredge is doing well. The decks that are good against Infect, lose to Dredge because Bolts and Mana Leaks don`t do enough against Dredge. Eliminating Dredge will give Infect a minor, but not insignificant decline.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
-want control to be good in modern? ban these cards.
-want the format to be slower and less linear? ban these cards.
-tired of waiting for better generic answers(fow, counterspell) to enter through standard that never will? ban these cards
do these bans match ban crieria? no, but this is more of a overhaul of the format which is needed if we want the above.
I disagree with the fetch land idea however, having multi coloured sideboard options is one of our ways of combating linearity.
link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HETGOuOPjUY
decks playing:
none
I think if you banned out Blood Moon the fetch lands would need to go. Perfect mana shouldn't be a given and it would be easy to imagine 4-5 color good stuff decks just pushing most all other fair decks out. Blood Moon is really only a tuff card for 3+ color decks. No Blood Moon no fetches would be fair you would still have very good mana but not perfect and I think that would be a fair enough trade off. I've been on both sides of a Blood Moon lock and the only time I've been shut out of a game by it was playing Jund splashing white for lingering souls or 4 color gifts and imo being at risk of getting Blood Mooned out was a fair trade off for running essentially all of the most powerful individual cards in the format.
1)People are really mistaken about Dredge and how to control it. To the people that think the deck is alright. No, it isn't. It's an over-the-top deck much like Valakut or Tron, but it ALSO has the speed of Affinity. It attacks from an angle that the format is incapable of reliably beating it, especially answer-based decks. This deck is too unfair in the format at least as we stand right now.
Now that that's covered. What to ban you may ask? No, Cathartic Reunion is not the card you would ban. Before Reunion the deck was pretty good anyways. Reunion just gave it the little push to be broken. GGT is where we should start. By slowing the deck a bit, you take away the necesity of wiping the deck forever, but make it more inconsistent and slower, so hate cards actually do something, or even you can make a runaway victory without hate. I'm thinking of a deck like Affinity but with no need of so many SB slots. Prized Amalgam is 2nd option.
2) The CFB video about 8 cards we could ban is interesting, but IMO biased. How come Eldrazi Temple isn't Top 4? Maybe i'm pulling my tinfoil hat here but them not talking about Temple is a straight nod to Eldrazi Winter and how terribly those months were to competitive Modern.
This Januray announcement is one i'm really looking forward to. I'm nervous since we could see a change in the format. I think right now as we stand Dredge is no longer for this world and will get nerfed. Become Immense is perfectly in the red zone. The only line of thought they could take is that nerfing Infect is a big hole for Midrange and Control decks, and a nice boost to Over the top decks like Tron and Valakut.