In a slower meta Jace is quite good. I played blue jund for quite a while and I am pretty happy with how he performed. I would still try him today for fun but meta is simply too fast for a looter that doesn't block. If you manage to flip him though he is a power house against both aggro and midrange strategies. He doesn't see play now but don't underestimate his powerlevel.
If you don't believe our oppinion go ask in the jeskai thread, jace doesn't fit there one bit, even your example fails the decks idea, as playing jace turn 4 and leaving mana open to counter wasts a counterspell to negate spotremoval which the deck allready dodges.
If you want to include jace put him in a list that allready runs creatures, otherwise he just fails.
People tried jace in the jeskai midrange build and even in a list which allready had targets he was still not worth the spot, now that nahiri
is the way to go and the meta became even faster the results won't change. The looting effect didn't get better ether, sicne the deck allready has 4 looting options.
YOu act as though I need the approval of whoever is in whatever thread you are talking about to evaluate and test a card for myself. Believe me I have tested Jace thoroughly in places you have never even considered (8rack). The card is solid. He's a tanky value walker that ends the game if it goes long. Nahiri ends the game rather quickly but you can't put all your eggs in one basket. If you do that 1 pithing needle and you cant win the game. Now I'm not suggesting you use him as a 4x in every case. I'm saying 1+ copies probably makes a lot of sense in a U/R/X shell.
Not where you want to be maybe, but Blue control decks like Nahiri would love a 2cc threat to take some of the pressure off.
I tried both him and Thing in the Ice in Nahiri. It's not good. Turn 2 you need to hold up Remand/Leak or you can risk the opponent resolving something you can't deal with (or have to use even more resources to deal with). Nahiri already has to tap out to play their namesake card, tapping out on 2 (for Jace/Thing) or on 3 (for Geist) or on 4 (for Nahiri) is just asking for your opponent to try and kill you that turn. And if you don't tap out, you'd better hope you have the right answer for whatever XYZ axis your opponent is fighting you on.
See you aren't playing it right. YOu play him turn 4 and leave mana up for counterspells. Then when your opponents are dealing with that you get ready to play your real threat nahiri. You play Thing in the ice on T4 and no one gives a *****. Thing in the ice is much more fo a turn 2 play, but I agree you dont want to be there.
He's not playing it wrong. Jeskai Nahiri doesn't want to wait till T4 to play a looter that can just be easily killed. The Jeskai list is already pretty tight and doesn't have any need for this card. It doesn't do anything.
It does plenty. If the board is empty it ticks up to a game ending ult, a feat even Liniana of the Veil's ult doesn't accomplish. Having unlimited flashbacks is pretty handy for URX imo as well. Is he an absolute guaranteed 2 for 1? No. There is some risk involved here but the payout is well worth it. Especially when you consider that decks like Grixis are already clearing a safe path for him anyways via Thoughtseize and IoK.
When JVP hits the board he must be dealt with immediately or he will get out of control. That's all you can really ask of a 2cc threat.
If you don't believe our oppinion go ask in the jeskai thread, jace doesn't fit there one bit, even your example fails the decks idea, as playing jace turn 4 and leaving mana open to counter wasts a counterspell to negate spotremoval which the deck allready dodges.
If you want to include jace put him in a list that allready runs creatures, otherwise he just fails.
People tried jace in the jeskai midrange build and even in a list which allready had targets he was still not worth the spot, now that nahiri
is the way to go and the meta became even faster the results won't change. The looting effect didn't get better ether, sicne the deck allready has 4 looting options.
YOu act as though I need the approval of whoever is in whatever thread you are talking about to evaluate and test a card for myself. Believe me I have tested Jace thoroughly in places you have never even considered (8rack). The card is solid. He's a tanky value walker that ends the game if it goes long. Nahiri ends the game rather quickly but you can't put all your eggs in one basket. If you do that 1 pithing needle and you cant win the game. Now I'm not suggesting you use him as a 4x in every case. I'm saying 1+ copies probably makes a lot of sense in a U/R/X shell.
And are you now maindecking JVP in your 8rack build?
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If you don't believe our oppinion go ask in the jeskai thread, jace doesn't fit there one bit, even your example fails the decks idea, as playing jace turn 4 and leaving mana open to counter wasts a counterspell to negate spotremoval which the deck allready dodges.
If you want to include jace put him in a list that allready runs creatures, otherwise he just fails.
People tried jace in the jeskai midrange build and even in a list which allready had targets he was still not worth the spot, now that nahiri
is the way to go and the meta became even faster the results won't change. The looting effect didn't get better ether, sicne the deck allready has 4 looting options.
YOu act as though I need the approval of whoever is in whatever thread you are talking about to evaluate and test a card for myself. Believe me I have tested Jace thoroughly in places you have never even considered (8rack). The card is solid. He's a tanky value walker that ends the game if it goes long. Nahiri ends the game rather quickly but you can't put all your eggs in one basket. If you do that 1 pithing needle and you cant win the game. Now I'm not suggesting you use him as a 4x in every case. I'm saying 1+ copies probably makes a lot of sense in a U/R/X shell.
And are you now maindecking JVP in your 8rack build?
If you don't believe our oppinion go ask in the jeskai thread, jace doesn't fit there one bit, even your example fails the decks idea, as playing jace turn 4 and leaving mana open to counter wasts a counterspell to negate spotremoval which the deck allready dodges.
If you want to include jace put him in a list that allready runs creatures, otherwise he just fails.
People tried jace in the jeskai midrange build and even in a list which allready had targets he was still not worth the spot, now that nahiri
is the way to go and the meta became even faster the results won't change. The looting effect didn't get better ether, sicne the deck allready has 4 looting options.
YOu act as though I need the approval of whoever is in whatever thread you are talking about to evaluate and test a card for myself. Believe me I have tested Jace thoroughly in places you have never even considered (8rack). The card is solid. He's a tanky value walker that ends the game if it goes long. Nahiri ends the game rather quickly but you can't put all your eggs in one basket. If you do that 1 pithing needle and you cant win the game. Now I'm not suggesting you use him as a 4x in every case. I'm saying 1+ copies probably makes a lot of sense in a U/R/X shell.
And are you now maindecking JVP in your 8rack build?
In one variant yes.
That's great. I can't wait to see it appear in the T8s.
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It's not good and has never been good. Maybe that is a bit of an exaggeration, but in a format as hostile as Modern, where if you aren't being killed by turn 3, whatever you play will be killed, and Jace's impact is minimal at best. I picked up my copies at ORI launch for $11 a piece and am kicking myself for not selling them at $90. Still sitting on my playset, hoping they find a home outside of filler EDH slots. Snapcaster is better in almost every regard, especially with counterspells. And outside of Goryos looting, I feel Jace would only be run in a deck as Snaps 5-8. But to take full advantage, they would also have to be running a proactive strategy (and even then, that requires cutting better, more useful cards to make room).
Many people like to experiment with new cards that they feel are powerful, especially just a month after release. "Blue Jund" was something several people (and especially Michael Majors) tried to make happen immediately after the launch of Origins, but it never took off and never had any sustained success. As far as Twin, I never liked him in that and there was no consensus in the Twin threads whether he was correct to play or not. Most seemed to feel he was unnecessary and didn't add enough to the deck to warrant slots.
His price and his hype was driven almost entirely by Standard play. The only reason he's not <$10 is because people who might have paid $50-80+ for them are getting more and more reluctant to sell the farther he slips down in price.
Getting top 3 at one of the biggest tournaments of the year is "experimenting." C'mon dude Blue jund was pretty good in a slowed down meta things just changed. (aka twin got banned and the format got faster as a result) Jace's issues mainly steam from the fact that grixis midrange/control isn't well positioned at the moment and that he doesn't work in Grixis Delver. The card is perfectly fine in Jeskai as a 1-2 of since he can recur removal/wrath effects. The reason why he isn't "$10" is because he sees play in eternal formats. If a grixis/esper midrange list takes off with new cards from Aether revolt expect jace to be there for it.
The format got faster, because WOTC printed cards that made many fast and linear aggro decks better in the recent sets...
Jace - card that you have to protect every turn to generate advantage and doesn't win on the spot after a few turns (so Nahiri+Emrakul combo is far stronger than anything + Jace).
People prefer spells with attached bodies (Snapcaster, Resto etc).
The 0/2 body can't block all the aggro creatures, because they are with at least 2 power.
0/3 would be playable in Modern, but too OP for Standard.
What are you saying. Jace gets one FREE block on any creature because you can flip in response to the dmg.
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It's not good and has never been good. Maybe that is a bit of an exaggeration, but in a format as hostile as Modern, where if you aren't being killed by turn 3, whatever you play will be killed, and Jace's impact is minimal at best. I picked up my copies at ORI launch for $11 a piece and am kicking myself for not selling them at $90. Still sitting on my playset, hoping they find a home outside of filler EDH slots. Snapcaster is better in almost every regard, especially with counterspells. And outside of Goryos looting, I feel Jace would only be run in a deck as Snaps 5-8. But to take full advantage, they would also have to be running a proactive strategy (and even then, that requires cutting better, more useful cards to make room).
To answer op's question, Jace is pretty similar in powerlevel to dark confidant tbh. Both die to a small breeze (well jace doesn't if you are allowed to untap with it), both produce card adv each turn, both win the game by themselves if left unchecked. Both also work very well with each other and Liliana of the veil. The best strats at using him are: UW control lists that run Ojutai's command, grixis with kolaghan's command/Liliana, the last hope, Sultai lists, etc. He's a card that you have to brew with to find some success. If you understand that he isn't great as a 3-4 of right now and can find a home for him, he can take over games by himself everytime.
It would be pretty impossible to win a game of Magic with just one Dark Confidant.
What are you saying? Confidant can win the game on it's own by not dying since it gives you so many more cards than your opponent. Similarly, Jace can do the same. Jace is a blue midrange card and should be played in Esper/Grixis/Sultai/UW(r) midrange decks. To play it with nahiri, the UWR deck has to play like a midrange deck and not a control deck. Jace = blue confidant.
It's not like your grave will have enough cards every time, also sometimes you will have to block when he has summoning sickness, so no looting or flips...
You are thinking only about the best case scenarios.
There is a reason why people like etb or dies effects - at least you get something from your cards.
Cards that can sit on the battlefield are usually hate or can end the game in a few turns.
It's really not hard to build your deck to have him flip literally everytime you untap as 5 cards is not alot whatsoever. That's like saying "goyf is a 4/5 in the best situations." Thoughtscour turns him on super easily as does fetchlands and collective brutality. Jace's issue is that his strats that he goes in aren't well positioned at the moment. It's like last year when Jund cut confidant for 4 months.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
If you don't believe our oppinion go ask in the jeskai thread, jace doesn't fit there one bit, even your example fails the decks idea, as playing jace turn 4 and leaving mana open to counter wasts a counterspell to negate spotremoval which the deck allready dodges.
If you want to include jace put him in a list that allready runs creatures, otherwise he just fails.
People tried jace in the jeskai midrange build and even in a list which allready had targets he was still not worth the spot, now that nahiri
is the way to go and the meta became even faster the results won't change. The looting effect didn't get better ether, sicne the deck allready has 4 looting options.
YOu act as though I need the approval of whoever is in whatever thread you are talking about to evaluate and test a card for myself. Believe me I have tested Jace thoroughly in places you have never even considered (8rack). The card is solid. He's a tanky value walker that ends the game if it goes long. Nahiri ends the game rather quickly but you can't put all your eggs in one basket. If you do that 1 pithing needle and you cant win the game. Now I'm not suggesting you use him as a 4x in every case. I'm saying 1+ copies probably makes a lot of sense in a U/R/X shell.
And are you now maindecking JVP in your 8rack build?
In one variant yes.
That's great. I can't wait to see it appear in the T8s.
Not sure if this was meant as sarcasm, but there actually was a T8 finish for 8Rack last weekend by Tom Ross.
It's not good and has never been good. Maybe that is a bit of an exaggeration, but in a format as hostile as Modern, where if you aren't being killed by turn 3, whatever you play will be killed, and Jace's impact is minimal at best. I picked up my copies at ORI launch for $11 a piece and am kicking myself for not selling them at $90. Still sitting on my playset, hoping they find a home outside of filler EDH slots. Snapcaster is better in almost every regard, especially with counterspells. And outside of Goryos looting, I feel Jace would only be run in a deck as Snaps 5-8. But to take full advantage, they would also have to be running a proactive strategy (and even then, that requires cutting better, more useful cards to make room).
To answer op's question, Jace is pretty similar in powerlevel to dark confidant tbh. Both die to a small breeze (well jace doesn't if you are allowed to untap with it), both produce card adv each turn, both win the game by themselves if left unchecked. Both also work very well with each other and Liliana of the veil. The best strats at using him are: UW control lists that run Ojutai's command, grixis with kolaghan's command/Liliana, the last hope, Sultai lists, etc. He's a card that you have to brew with to find some success. If you understand that he isn't great as a 3-4 of right now and can find a home for him, he can take over games by himself everytime.
It would be pretty impossible to win a game of Magic with just one Dark Confidant.
What are you saying? Confidant can win the game on it's own by not dying since it gives you so many more cards than your opponent. Similarly, Jace can do the same. Jace is a blue midrange card and should be played in Esper/Grixis/Sultai/UW(r) midrange decks. To play it with nahiri, the UWR deck has to play like a midrange deck and not a control deck. Jace = blue confidant.
If Dark Confidant won the game on its own that means you didn't use any other cards. The extra cards you drew from it are irrelevant.
MArc was trolling you bro, he didn't meant to say 8Rack was bad, but splashing blue makes no sense in the deck.
Your trying to include a creature in a deck that runs non again, making your opps removal usefull. Furthemore playing
a second color hurts your fast matchups, as you weaken the manabase.
I start to understand why truth warned us, that non of our arguments reaches you.
You could include jace as a sb card in decks that run no creatures main, since you can expect to see opps boarding out
all their removal, but everything you suggested has been bad so far and while we are presenting arguments that even
show inside of the decks, you're just giving us your oppinion.
I mean ok that's your opinion, but there actually are people out there using the card. And I will thank you to check out my channel if you want to see JaceRack working just dandy.
I mean here's the thing about threads like this: some people comment in them like its WWII and their side needs to prove stuff to "win". But the real advantage is folks finding creative new ways to use cards when seeing what others are doing. FOr example in this thread earlier someone mentioned using it in Goroyo. I hadn't thought of that, and it got me thinking about using it in a couple other places too. Eternal Command is interesting, as it runs Aether Vial. Anyways stop trying to win, it won't happen and no one cares if you do anyways.
Look, it's pretty simple
Jace is completely unplayable in any deck and any format, and he will stay that way until he gets cheap enough that I can buy my playset
Stop trying to convince players not to jump ship and sell him!
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Like just about any card, he will see fringe play. He is not seeing play in any consistently successful Tier 1 or 2 deck, and doesn't see play in most Tier 3 decks. His effect requires a lot of setup for relatively little payoff. Even if you get him to a PW (which is not a guarantee), his +1 does little against either a large creature or a wide field of small creatures. His -3 can only be used once before needing to +1 again, and works horribly with countermagic. His ultimate is something you will likely never get to because his -3 is so much better than his +1. And worst of all, he does nothing the turn he lands. If all you want is a Merfolk Looter with upside, he's probably great. If you absolutely want his PW side, there are much better things you can be spending your resources on.
It's not good and has never been good. Maybe that is a bit of an exaggeration, but in a format as hostile as Modern, where if you aren't being killed by turn 3, whatever you play will be killed, and Jace's impact is minimal at best. I picked up my copies at ORI launch for $11 a piece and am kicking myself for not selling them at $90. Still sitting on my playset, hoping they find a home outside of filler EDH slots. Snapcaster is better in almost every regard, especially with counterspells. And outside of Goryos looting, I feel Jace would only be run in a deck as Snaps 5-8. But to take full advantage, they would also have to be running a proactive strategy (and even then, that requires cutting better, more useful cards to make room).
To answer op's question, Jace is pretty similar in powerlevel to dark confidant tbh. Both die to a small breeze (well jace doesn't if you are allowed to untap with it), both produce card adv each turn, both win the game by themselves if left unchecked. Both also work very well with each other and Liliana of the veil. The best strats at using him are: UW control lists that run Ojutai's command, grixis with kolaghan's command/Liliana, the last hope, Sultai lists, etc. He's a card that you have to brew with to find some success. If you understand that he isn't great as a 3-4 of right now and can find a home for him, he can take over games by himself everytime.
It would be pretty impossible to win a game of Magic with just one Dark Confidant.
What are you saying? Confidant can win the game on it's own by not dying since it gives you so many more cards than your opponent. Similarly, Jace can do the same. Jace is a blue midrange card and should be played in Esper/Grixis/Sultai/UW(r) midrange decks. To play it with nahiri, the UWR deck has to play like a midrange deck and not a control deck. Jace = blue confidant.
If Dark Confidant won the game on its own that means you didn't use any other cards. The extra cards you drew from it are irrelevant.
This thought process makes no sense whatsoever. Does ancestral vision not win games because it nets you 3 cards and puts the game out of reach when you are that ahead? It's the same logic.
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Like just about any card, he will see fringe play. He is not seeing play in any consistently successful Tier 1 or 2 deck, and doesn't see play in most Tier 3 decks. His effect requires a lot of setup for relatively little payoff. Even if you get him to a PW (which is not a guarantee), his +1 does little against either a large creature or a wide field of small creatures. His -3 can only be used once before needing to +1 again, and works horribly with countermagic. His ultimate is something you will likely never get to because his -3 is so much better than his +1. And worst of all, he does nothing the turn he lands. If all you want is a Merfolk Looter with upside, he's probably great. If you absolutely want his PW side, there are much better things you can be spending your resources on.
5 cards in your graveyard is not "alot of setup."
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I've won many game because of a single Dark Confidant
But it was on my opponent's side of the field
Does that still count?
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
When JVP hits the board he must be dealt with immediately or he will get out of control. That's all you can really ask of a 2cc threat.
And are you now maindecking JVP in your 8rack build?
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That's great. I can't wait to see it appear in the T8s.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
What are you saying. Jace gets one FREE block on any creature because you can flip in response to the dmg.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
What are you saying? Confidant can win the game on it's own by not dying since it gives you so many more cards than your opponent. Similarly, Jace can do the same. Jace is a blue midrange card and should be played in Esper/Grixis/Sultai/UW(r) midrange decks. To play it with nahiri, the UWR deck has to play like a midrange deck and not a control deck. Jace = blue confidant.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
It's really not hard to build your deck to have him flip literally everytime you untap as 5 cards is not alot whatsoever. That's like saying "goyf is a 4/5 in the best situations." Thoughtscour turns him on super easily as does fetchlands and collective brutality. Jace's issue is that his strats that he goes in aren't well positioned at the moment. It's like last year when Jund cut confidant for 4 months.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
This is a good example of what I'm talking about with jace right now. Great write up on the deck/jace.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
If Dark Confidant won the game on its own that means you didn't use any other cards. The extra cards you drew from it are irrelevant.
I'm sorry I can't understand if you are trolling me sarcastically or not. If you are then be more clear about it dammut! lol
Jace is completely unplayable in any deck and any format, and he will stay that way until he gets cheap enough that I can buy my playset
Stop trying to convince players not to jump ship and sell him!
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I play it in Modern sometimes. That would make it true.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
This thought process makes no sense whatsoever. Does ancestral vision not win games because it nets you 3 cards and puts the game out of reach when you are that ahead? It's the same logic.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
5 cards in your graveyard is not "alot of setup."
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)