I think, everybody is forgetting about BG Infect, which more than loves the BG Fastland. The big problem was (and arguably is), that the Phyrexian Crusader costs BB, which forced you to run a basic Swamp + resulted into a relatively high life loss compared to the UG version.
Hence, I think, that BG Infect might be now better than UG Infect, due to the better threads + interaction (Decay is an answer for 99& of the problematic cards).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Abzan definitely. Now it has an option to play turn 1 discard without losing life and same goes for the Delver that can play Serum Visions or Lightning Bolt on turn 1 and doesn't need to pay life for that. I'm not sure if this will put them much ahead (in the top tier) and I'm inclined it won't but it's definitely a help they were looking for and will be both glad for it.
true any of the blue red decks, now get either or without having to bolt themselves
BG fastland will help GB Infect but I don't think it will make it better than UG Infect is. The latter has cards like Blighted Agent and better protection with counters. BG Infect will likely see more play though.
Did you see the BG Infect lists? They run 4 Discard spells MD for this exact reason.
As for counters, they play like 2 Spell Pierce max MD, which is meh. Sure, they have access to more counters post board, but when your creatures are more resilient (Crusader) you also need less protection spells ^^
Though, you will still run the 2 Blessing, 4 Wines, 4 Discard set-up.
As for Blighted Agent, yes, it is the (second) best Infecter, but Plague Stinger is a very good alternative in Modern, since not many decks are playing flyers.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I'd be very surprised if BG Infect overtakes UG Infect simply because of a new land. If any deck really got a leg up it would be the low to the ground U/R/x tempo and control lists, given how finicky their mana requirements can be.
Ug infect has gitaxian probe, super relevant card for delve and information, plus hierarch doesnt produce black. Spell pierce may seem unnecessary due to crusader's pro r/w, but its ability to counter planeswalkers, artifacts, and backbreaking spells for one mana shouldn't be overlooked.twisted image, too. That being said, 4 gb fastlands certainly couldn't hurt the deck, and might warrant an upgrade from IoK to thoughtseize, which would help tremendously, i think.
Ug infect has gitaxian probe, super relevant card for delve and information, plus hierarch doesnt produce black. Spell pierce may seem unnecessary due to crusader's pro r/w, but its ability to counter planeswalkers, artifacts, and backbreaking spells for one mana shouldn't be overlooked.twisted image, too. That being said, 4 gb fastlands certainly couldn't hurt the deck, and might warrant an upgrade from IoK to thoughtseize, which would help tremendously, i think.
But who is actually paying 1 blue for probe. It's 99.9% of the time cast for 2 life. Even B/G can play it if it wanted to (and I think it should).
I do agree that losing hierarch hurts though. Every point of damage you are pushing through matters.
Ug infect has gitaxian probe, super relevant card for delve and information, plus hierarch doesnt produce black. Spell pierce may seem unnecessary due to crusader's pro r/w, but its ability to counter planeswalkers, artifacts, and backbreaking spells for one mana shouldn't be overlooked.twisted image, too. That being said, 4 gb fastlands certainly couldn't hurt the deck, and might warrant an upgrade from IoK to thoughtseize, which would help tremendously, i think.
But who is actually paying 1 blue for probe.
The same metagame %age that plays BG infect. Not worth talking about.
I think izzit is going to be the most popular of the bunch simply thanks to the casual appeal, even in modern. Sometimes it isn't about the mechanics as much as the idea behind the deck and how crazy it is to play more spells than creatures.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think izzit is going to be the most popular of the bunch simply thanks to the casual appeal, even in modern. Sometimes it isn't about the mechanics as much as the idea behind the deck and how crazy it is to play more spells than creatures.
I'd say it's because U/R lost its old Identity, and people are trying to figure out what to do with it now. Storm, Twin, and Delver got knocked down or banned. I'd also say that it's more that U/R has access to the least amount of life gain among enemy color combos, and thus benefits comparatively more from having painless mana fixing in the early turns.
Delver's going to snap up UR and possibly UG fast lands.
UR Storm will be getting UR fast lands.
Heck, a lot of decks want UR fast lands--I think UWR builds generally want them, too.
Oh heck, my URgb Dredge deck wants UR fast lands.
The BG fast land will see plenty of play in BGx decks. I believe Junk and Melira Company will want some, and Jund may pick up 1-2.
BW Tokens wants the BW fast land so badly, as do BW E&T (Eldrazi and Taxes) and other random BW Midrange builds. Junk and BWR will likely want some.
I believe Burn wants the RW fast land. Maybe BWR might want one.
Guess Infect likes some UG fast lands.
Can't think of many other uses for the RW and UG fast lands, though. Random Bant builds may want the UG fast lands.
While I think there are a lot of Tier 1/1.5 decks that win out on these lands (like Junk mainly), I think the decks that really win because of these lands are the Tier 2/2.5 decks. Decks like UR/Grixis Delver being able to drop Delver, draw, or Bolt turn 1 is great. B/W Tokens being able to painlessly Turn 1 Discard. Soul Sisters gaining access to a painless black or red splash.
I've been playing a R/W Humans deck that is extremely aggressive. It can consistently threaten lethal on turn 4 and loses as many games to mana screw/mana pain as it does to anything else. Its certainly FNM competitive but I could see the new fast land helping the deck gain enough percentage points to become reasonably competitive at the next level. The deck rarely wants more than 4 total lands and is usually sufficient with 3, the exact kind of curve you would want Fastlands for.
The major winners aren't where you would normally look, I don't think. Like, why would Jund care about an untapped green source on turn 1? What does the G/B land really do for them that Fetch+Shock doesn't do better on turn 2? I mean, maybe Merfolk runs Lightning Bolt now I guess but the real winners are the budget players and lower tiered decks. The reduced stress on decks like Junk/Jund that would normally run 1 or 2 more shocks or fetches now leave those in the market for others to pick up. Some people will be liquidating some of those cards to pick up the Fastlands. The players rocking those Tier 2, 2-color rogue brews now have access to better mana over all and gain a percentage point or two in their win column. Overall I don't think the impact will be enormous, not like people are assuming, but I do think there will be an impact but again, not where people are expecting it.
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The following link is an invitation to join Pucatrade (card trading service though similar to TCGPLayer). If you follow the link then it awards me with tokens to exchange for actual cards. Thanks! https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
Jund actually starves for green a lot with scavenging ooze, which is something I find kind of interesting. Many junds still play a twilight mire to fix this issue.
I'd not be surprised to see a 2/2 split between BG and BR fastlands in jund.
Also allows them to play stuff like Courser or other GG cards if they desire, which is neat flexibility to have. BG fastland is pretty good if you're heavy grim flayer, who places more color demands in the early game too.
Jund actually starves for green a lot with scavenging ooze, which is something I find kind of interesting. Many junds still play a twilight mire to fix this issue.
I'd not be surprised to see a 2/2 split between BG and BR fastlands in jund.
Also allows them to play stuff like Courser or other GG cards if they desire, which is neat flexibility to have. BG fastland is pretty good if you're heavy grim flayer, who places more color demands in the early game too.
I feel like the lack of a T1 green spell puts the deck more heavily in favor of the BR one. A T1 discard on the play or bolt on the draw is critical beating some decks. You absolutely need that interaction in an open field. The GB land sets up better T2 plays for closing out a game following a discard sure, but the consistency of disrupting your opponent is what I think makes the RB more desirable.
Jund actually starves for green a lot with scavenging ooze, which is something I find kind of interesting. Many junds still play a twilight mire to fix this issue.
I'd not be surprised to see a 2/2 split between BG and BR fastlands in jund.
Also allows them to play stuff like Courser or other GG cards if they desire, which is neat flexibility to have. BG fastland is pretty good if you're heavy grim flayer, who places more color demands in the early game too.
I feel like the lack of a T1 green spell puts the deck more heavily in favor of the BR one. A T1 discard on the play or bolt on the draw is critical beating some decks. You absolutely need that interaction in an open field. The GB land sets up better T2 plays for closing out a game following a discard sure, but the consistency of disrupting your opponent is what I think makes the RB more desirable.
I think you're probably right most of the time, but if your green balance is high enough it might shift that some. There's also the possibility for a jund delirium deck that plays traverse to catch on, which is vastly more likely if you can play traverse t1 to fix your mana.
Bottom line it opens up a lot of doors for Jund I think to have that additional flexibility. It's possible that 3 cliffs/1 marsh adds enough of an edge in scooze use to become the standard.
I'm playing GB elves with a full set of gilt-leaf and I'll run a full set of these since I play a lot of black in the board and don't need a lot of lands (17 total in the deck list):)
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11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
I don't use caverns (own a set tho), I rarely play against counterspells. The black mana is important mostly for my sideboard and cavern can't help my sideboard game 2
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11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
I try to build a mana base for URW Pyromancer Ascension at the moment and I wonder if Spirebluff Canal might be wort including however I have problem with the right amount of fetchlands/shocks/fastlands. Is there a resource you can link me or advice that could help building the mana base?
I try to build a mana base for URW Pyromancer Ascension at the moment and I wonder if Spirebluff Canal might be wort including however I have problem with the right amount of fetchlands/shocks/fastlands. Is there a resource you can link me or advice that could help building the mana base?
Greetings
King
When in doubt use a little of each. In regards to modern landbases, a mixed bag approach is ideal, despite being non specific.
I try to build a mana base for URW Pyromancer Ascension at the moment and I wonder if Spirebluff Canal might be wort including however I have problem with the right amount of fetchlands/shocks/fastlands. Is there a resource you can link me or advice that could help building the mana base?
Greetings
King
My go-to for manabases is this:
8 fetches centered around your main color (4 Scalding Tarn, 4 Flooded Strand)
4 shocklands centered around main color pair (2 Steam Vents, 1 Hallowed Fountain, 1 Sacred Foundry)
4 basics centered around main color (2 Island, 1 Mountain, 1 Plains)
Then 4-8 flex lands depending on what you are doing. For UWR Ascention, likely 3-4 Spirebluff Canal (which would bring you to 19-20 lands)
Plenty of customization options, but the 8/4/4 fetches/shocks/basics is a good place to start. The fastlands specifically want to be in decks with average CMC less than 3, because drawing one and playing it on turn 4 with a 4 drop in your hand is a big tempo loss.
Hence, I think, that BG Infect might be now better than UG Infect, due to the better threads + interaction (Decay is an answer for 99& of the problematic cards).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
so far its probably the only thing in this set that has made the set worth anything. Aside from that red blue planeswalker.
Not true, Abzan and Delver decks have wanted these for years.
Also not true. Did you really forget about Chandra, Torch of Defiance and Madcap Experiment?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
true any of the blue red decks, now get either or without having to bolt themselves
i hadn't seen madcap yet. that is the nutz.
Did you see the BG Infect lists? They run 4 Discard spells MD for this exact reason.
As for counters, they play like 2 Spell Pierce max MD, which is meh. Sure, they have access to more counters post board, but when your creatures are more resilient (Crusader) you also need less protection spells ^^
Though, you will still run the 2 Blessing, 4 Wines, 4 Discard set-up.
As for Blighted Agent, yes, it is the (second) best Infecter, but Plague Stinger is a very good alternative in Modern, since not many decks are playing flyers.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I do agree that losing hierarch hurts though. Every point of damage you are pushing through matters.
The same metagame %age that plays BG infect. Not worth talking about.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'd say it's because U/R lost its old Identity, and people are trying to figure out what to do with it now. Storm, Twin, and Delver got knocked down or banned. I'd also say that it's more that U/R has access to the least amount of life gain among enemy color combos, and thus benefits comparatively more from having painless mana fixing in the early turns.
UR Storm will be getting UR fast lands.
Heck, a lot of decks want UR fast lands--I think UWR builds generally want them, too.
Oh heck, my URgb Dredge deck wants UR fast lands.
The BG fast land will see plenty of play in BGx decks. I believe Junk and Melira Company will want some, and Jund may pick up 1-2.
BW Tokens wants the BW fast land so badly, as do BW E&T (Eldrazi and Taxes) and other random BW Midrange builds. Junk and BWR will likely want some.
I believe Burn wants the RW fast land. Maybe BWR might want one.
Guess Infect likes some UG fast lands.
Can't think of many other uses for the RW and UG fast lands, though. Random Bant builds may want the UG fast lands.
I've been playing a R/W Humans deck that is extremely aggressive. It can consistently threaten lethal on turn 4 and loses as many games to mana screw/mana pain as it does to anything else. Its certainly FNM competitive but I could see the new fast land helping the deck gain enough percentage points to become reasonably competitive at the next level. The deck rarely wants more than 4 total lands and is usually sufficient with 3, the exact kind of curve you would want Fastlands for.
The major winners aren't where you would normally look, I don't think. Like, why would Jund care about an untapped green source on turn 1? What does the G/B land really do for them that Fetch+Shock doesn't do better on turn 2? I mean, maybe Merfolk runs Lightning Bolt now I guess but the real winners are the budget players and lower tiered decks. The reduced stress on decks like Junk/Jund that would normally run 1 or 2 more shocks or fetches now leave those in the market for others to pick up. Some people will be liquidating some of those cards to pick up the Fastlands. The players rocking those Tier 2, 2-color rogue brews now have access to better mana over all and gain a percentage point or two in their win column. Overall I don't think the impact will be enormous, not like people are assuming, but I do think there will be an impact but again, not where people are expecting it.
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
I'd not be surprised to see a 2/2 split between BG and BR fastlands in jund.
Also allows them to play stuff like Courser or other GG cards if they desire, which is neat flexibility to have. BG fastland is pretty good if you're heavy grim flayer, who places more color demands in the early game too.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I feel like the lack of a T1 green spell puts the deck more heavily in favor of the BR one. A T1 discard on the play or bolt on the draw is critical beating some decks. You absolutely need that interaction in an open field. The GB land sets up better T2 plays for closing out a game following a discard sure, but the consistency of disrupting your opponent is what I think makes the RB more desirable.
I think you're probably right most of the time, but if your green balance is high enough it might shift that some. There's also the possibility for a jund delirium deck that plays traverse to catch on, which is vastly more likely if you can play traverse t1 to fix your mana.
Bottom line it opens up a lot of doors for Jund I think to have that additional flexibility. It's possible that 3 cliffs/1 marsh adds enough of an edge in scooze use to become the standard.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
Greetings
King
UWRWorking on: Pyromancer AscensionUR
My go-to for manabases is this:
8 fetches centered around your main color (4 Scalding Tarn, 4 Flooded Strand)
4 shocklands centered around main color pair (2 Steam Vents, 1 Hallowed Fountain, 1 Sacred Foundry)
4 basics centered around main color (2 Island, 1 Mountain, 1 Plains)
Then 4-8 flex lands depending on what you are doing. For UWR Ascention, likely 3-4 Spirebluff Canal (which would bring you to 19-20 lands)
Plenty of customization options, but the 8/4/4 fetches/shocks/basics is a good place to start. The fastlands specifically want to be in decks with average CMC less than 3, because drawing one and playing it on turn 4 with a 4 drop in your hand is a big tempo loss.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate