I actually feel like torrential gearhulk is playable in UW control lists. If you use it to flashback a cryptic command its the same mana cost of doing so with a snapcaster mage, except instead of getting a wimpy 2/1, you get a massive 5/6. Gearhulk can also hit Ancestral Vision while Snap cannot. I don't know if he'll be a 4 of, but I think he'll definitely see play.
Torrential Gearhulk only works with instants.
Slight nonbo there but the bulk of what you're doing in Control will be instants anyway.
I actually feel like torrential gearhulk is playable in UW control lists. If you use it to flashback a cryptic command its the same mana cost of doing so with a snapcaster mage, except instead of getting a wimpy 2/1, you get a massive 5/6. Gearhulk can also hit Ancestral Vision while Snap cannot. I don't know if he'll be a 4 of, but I think he'll definitely see play.
He can only hit Instants, which makes him way worse :/
Though, he is still a huge flash beater, which can return stuff, so it is not as bad ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
The Experiment + Emperion combo seems solid. It doesn't place many restrictions on deckbuilding other than "don't play other artifacts". That means you can't have mana rocks or SBed artifacts, but that can be worked around.
You probably have to play 2 Emperions in case you draw one though. It takes one more slot compared to Nahiri, but you get your fatty immediately.
I mean, is the "combo" even good? A 8/8 for 4 without evasion looks rather meh for me, especially since he can be hit by Path, Lilli and co while he does not provide that much utility.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Don't think of it as a "combo" ala twin, where you instantly win by playing it. Think of it more as a 4 drop 8/8 that makes it impossible for you to be killed (besides infect/mill) until it's dealt with.
If instead the card read:
Madcap Experiment 3R Artifact Creature
Your life total can't change. 8/8
Would you still ask if it's even good?
Also, its a 1 card combo in R, so you just need to not play other artifacts and then jam in those 5 cards (maybe 6 if you want protection from drawing the fatty) and then build a deck around it. You could fit it into a midrange shell using R, a control shell with counter magic to protect the fatty, whatever.
The "combo" is an instant win Game 1 against Burn, Suicide Zoo, Merfolk, etc, while only requiring 5 cards of your library to achieve, and only requiring that you play Red.
I mean, is the "combo" even good? A 8/8 for 4 without evasion looks rather meh for me, especially since he can be hit by Path, Lilli and co while he does not provide that much utility.
Greetings,
Kathal
It does seem extremely strong against aggro decks if you can protect against path though. Might end up being something of a strong sideboard package? I'm pretty sure burn just straight can't deal with this if you can hold up dispel against paths.
Edit: in my mind this card had indestructible. Nope.
platinum experiment is pretty sick mostly because it requires so little deck investment; you basically just play it as any other 4-drop. The only downside is that drawing emperion really sucks.
Nissa, Vital Force seems ridiculously powerful in a BGx or valakut shell. Her +1 turns a land into a creature until your next turn, so it can block, and you can ultimate right after to turn fetchlands into a draw 2. cmc5 is pricy though and the -3 is mediocre
Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I don't know why people are knocking the Madcap combo so much. Platinum Emperion is a total rockstar at just 3R. Unlike with Platinum Angel, you don't even lose the game if Emperion dies! The only opportunity cost to this is running 5-6 slots on the combo, which is not exactly negligible but is also not at all steep. Lots of decks will really struggle against an active Emperion, particularly if you can untap with countermagic/protection up.
So, play 3 Platinums and 4 Lotv. . . . I think its too good not to fool around with.
But if you want to so more combo - Intervention Pact seems good. . . 3R. . . get any fatty you want. . . blightsteel for example . . . gain a bunch of life. Untap, pay 1WW and swing for win?
Nissa, Vital Force seems ridiculously powerful in a BGx or valakut shell. Her +1 turns a land into a creature until your next turn, so it can block, and you can ultimate right after to turn fetchlands into a draw 2. cmc5 is pricy though and the -3 is mediocre
5 mana is the killer. The bar for 5-drops is really high. Is it better than Thragtusk? Probably not, Tusk's immediate lifegain saves you pretty often, and turning one of your lands into a 5/5 every turn to play defense stops Nissa from doing anything else.
Nobody expects a 5/5 haste out of green though (maybe not)
Basically if you're playing Emperion you should have reasons to discard any copy you draw, so Nahiri or Lili seem kinda mandatory.
Also consider that once you're out of Emperion in your deck, you can't play any other Madcap Experiment (well you can, but it just kills you without doing anything), so that might hurt a bit the playability of the combo. You would have to play four Emperions to keep any Experiment you draw relevant, increasing the probability of drawing an Emperion and having nothing to do with it.
On second thoughts maybe it's better to go the Angel's Grace/Phyrexian Unlife/Soulfire Grand Master route with a win the game fatty. But unlike Ad Nauseam if your Phyrexian Unlife or SGM gets blown up in reaction to Madcap Experiment, then you can't stop it. Also, doesn't draw your deck, so doesn't get you all the protection you want for your combo, you're only relying on a single card.
Maybe as a SB plan for Ad Nauseam? They board out their Pathes, you bring in the Colossus.
If it shuffled itself back into the deck I'd be for playing a loot/discard effect.
Storage lands like Calciform Pools could be a way to reduce the downside of drawing Emperions, especially if you're playing counterspells.
Ad Nauseam plays a creature SB occasionally. They usually use Grave Titan or Dragonlord Dromoka. Those two don't need an Unlife to be good, and you can ritual into them with Lotus or Prism. Dromoka has anti-counterspell utility, and during those times where you have an Unlife, she can heal you back above 0 so Unlife resets.
The "combo" is an instant win Game 1 against Burn, Suicide Zoo, Merfolk, etc, while only requiring 5 cards of your library to achieve, and only requiring that you play Red.
It's close to an instant win, but you still have to be careful. Burn can play triple burn spell to kill Emperion. Suicide Zoo can block and pump if you attack with it. Merfolk has Vapor Snag.
Basically if you're playing Emperion you should have reasons to discard any copy you draw, so Nahiri or Lili seem kinda mandatory.
Also consider that once you're out of Emperion in your deck, you can't play any other Madcap Experiment (well you can, but it just kills you without doing anything), so that might hurt a bit the playability of the combo. You would have to play four Emperions to keep any Experiment you draw relevant, increasing the probability of drawing an Emperion and having nothing to do with it.
On second thoughts maybe it's better to go the Angel's Grace/Phyrexian Unlife/Soulfire Grand Master route with a win the game fatty. But unlike Ad Nauseam if your Phyrexian Unlife or SGM gets blown up in reaction to Madcap Experiment, then you can't stop it. Also, doesn't draw your deck, so doesn't get you all the protection you want for your combo, you're only relying on a single card.
Maybe as a SB plan for Ad Nauseam? They board out their Pathes, you bring in the Colossus.
You can jam a UR shell with Izzet Charms and Saheeli. PE combo, pitch drawn copies with Izzet Charm, copy them with Saheeli. Seems.. good.
Burn also packs Destructive Revelry in the board as well which helps clear out Emperion. I kinda like the Hive Mind idea with it but isn't just using Pacts better? Most people can't pay for them anyway and even if they can, when Bloom Titan (for example) was winning with them before it was by casting Summoner's Pact -> Pact of Negation which almost nobody can pay for anyway.
Upsides from ad nauseam: doesn't kill you if you have to pass turn (you're at one life), theoretically faster using rituals, doesn't fold to getting the win con discarded (blight steel shuffles in)
Downsides: creature reliant, can't use artifact ramp, sorcery speed
Edit: and your backup plan for this is through the breach or discarding blight steel to get it back in your deck.
I'd knock it because I think my idea is better. You could even run this and ad nauseam in the same deck.
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Come watch me stream over at my twitch channel. I play Loam Pox, Ad Nauseam, and jank in modern on MTGO.
Even though Tooth and Nail isn't really a tier 1 deck I think madcap+platinum could slot in it quite easily. With arbor elf+utopia sprawl you can cast this turn two. Also it will never be a dead card since you usually can ramp to 8 mana. Also it can be a decent silver-bullet with primal command in some matchups.
Ooh, I like the idea of bringing this into Tooth & Nail or even GR Ponza with Arbor Elf / Utopia Sprawl. I created a thread in Deck Discussion to brew actual lists, but we can also just develop decks here, I guess. Interested to see where this goes.
Nissa, Vital Force seems ridiculously powerful in a BGx or valakut shell. Her +1 turns a land into a creature until your next turn, so it can block, and you can ultimate right after to turn fetchlands into a draw 2. cmc5 is pricy though and the -3 is mediocre
As a long time RUG/BtL Scapeshift player, I definitely want some number of her in my 75. She seems perfect for grindy match ups and as an alternate wincon. Even the -3 can be valuable to buy back mountains, Snapcaster or Obstinate Baloth.
Mad cap and Emperion is a pretty easy as hell package to put in. Its about 6 slots. I just wonder, where do you run it? And whats its role? As far as I can see its Anti aggro tech, and it's a win con.
Jund doesnt want it because confidant.
Dredge doesnt want it because no grave synergy
Nahiri wants it maybe? But youd have to take out the nahiri package (which more or less wins the game on the spot when it goes off) and might make their aggro matchup better
Tron cant use it because of maps
Zoo wont get to 4 mana, unless you use big zoo... which case, zoo would like a 4 mana 8/8.
RG Breach probably wants it, I could easily see it slot into that.
Mardu is probably better off with nahiri... but I'm not good enough at these nahiri decks so someone might be able to correct me.
Kiki Cord could use it, especially if they have something fun to Evolve off it at 10 mana.
Burn doesnt want it, since they wont get to 4 mana
Grishoalbrand works off speed, so this at 4 mana isnt the best.
Living end could use it as a plan b, since it doesnt mess with their plan a.
U/R delver doesnt want it, they'd use relver or something instead.
Grixis... maybe wants it? They have a huge trouble against aggro with the amount of pain they get.
So out of that I see... Living end, titanshift, grixis, And MAYBE Kiki with evolution or zoo as a top ender.
I'm still on Chandra, Torch of Defiance. It just seems like so much raw power. on turn 4 it can cost "2" mana by plus 1ing it. It defaults to at worst, shocking every turn, IF you miss the draw. Flame slashing with it is costly, but effective enough if you have to go for it, which I think is the biggest down side of this card. But those 2 plus 1s really seem to put this card out. If you look at it at pure flexibility, its basically got 5 abilities:
I'm still on Chandra, Torch of Defiance. It just seems like so much raw power. on turn 4 it can cost "2" mana by plus 1ing it. It defaults to at worst, shocking every turn, IF you miss the draw. Flame slashing with it is costly, but effective enough if you have to go for it, which I think is the biggest down side of this card. But those 2 plus 1s really seem to put this card out. If you look at it at pure flexibility, its basically got 5 abilities:
+1 draw a card
+1 shock a player
+1 2 free spirit guides
-3 Flameslash
-7 Win the game in 2 turns.
About this I would say:
- The first +1 is damn good.
- The second plus 1 is wholly mediocre. Saying "2 spirit guides" is ridiculous because by the time that matters it's turn 3 earliest and you're using RR to... Pyroclasm? More likely, you get 7 mana on turn 5 and use it to... no idea.
- The -3 is not so good, but will do.
- The -7 is fairly conditional and so not great. Then again, if you get to the point where you can Ult Chandra, you're probably doing well enough that you can cast a few spells and stabilize/win. I just don't like how this Ult doesn't do anything to swing the game in your favour unless you're sitting on gas already.
I see this being a roleplayer in Jund and perhaps various other brews. But I don't see it becoming ubiquitous.
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Torrential Gearhulk only works with instants.
Slight nonbo there but the bulk of what you're doing in Control will be instants anyway.
He can only hit Instants, which makes him way worse :/
Though, he is still a huge flash beater, which can return stuff, so it is not as bad ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
You probably have to play 2 Emperions in case you draw one though. It takes one more slot compared to Nahiri, but you get your fatty immediately.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
If instead the card read:
Madcap Experiment 3R
Artifact Creature
Your life total can't change.
8/8
Would you still ask if it's even good?
Also, its a 1 card combo in R, so you just need to not play other artifacts and then jam in those 5 cards (maybe 6 if you want protection from drawing the fatty) and then build a deck around it. You could fit it into a midrange shell using R, a control shell with counter magic to protect the fatty, whatever.
The "combo" is an instant win Game 1 against Burn, Suicide Zoo, Merfolk, etc, while only requiring 5 cards of your library to achieve, and only requiring that you play Red.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
It does seem extremely strong against aggro decks if you can protect against path though. Might end up being something of a strong sideboard package? I'm pretty sure burn just straight can't deal with this if you can hold up dispel against paths.
Edit: in my mind this card had indestructible. Nope.
Oh and I guess it stops you from cracking fetchlands .
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Nissa, Vital Force seems ridiculously powerful in a BGx or valakut shell. Her +1 turns a land into a creature until your next turn, so it can block, and you can ultimate right after to turn fetchlands into a draw 2. cmc5 is pricy though and the -3 is mediocre
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
The Jund Imperium?
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Platinum Imperium
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
I don't know - it's a rough outline of an idea.
Hallow and Hive Mind.
Let us see if the red Gearhulk casts sorceries. Then we can play ultimatums.
I would play 4 emperiums because living end often draws 2 living ends.. also the liliana can discard him witch is nice.
But if you want to so more combo - Intervention Pact seems good. . . 3R. . . get any fatty you want. . . blightsteel for example . . . gain a bunch of life. Untap, pay 1WW and swing for win?
Nobody expects a 5/5 haste out of green though (maybe not)
If it shuffled itself back into the deck I'd be for playing a loot/discard effect.
Storage lands like Calciform Pools could be a way to reduce the downside of drawing Emperions, especially if you're playing counterspells.
Ad Nauseam plays a creature SB occasionally. They usually use Grave Titan or Dragonlord Dromoka. Those two don't need an Unlife to be good, and you can ritual into them with Lotus or Prism. Dromoka has anti-counterspell utility, and during those times where you have an Unlife, she can heal you back above 0 so Unlife resets.
It's close to an instant win, but you still have to be careful. Burn can play triple burn spell to kill Emperion. Suicide Zoo can block and pump if you attack with it. Merfolk has Vapor Snag.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
You can jam a UR shell with Izzet Charms and Saheeli. PE combo, pitch drawn copies with Izzet Charm, copy them with Saheeli. Seems.. good.
I'd knock it because I think my idea is better. You could even run this and ad nauseam in the same deck.
Ooh, I like the idea of bringing this into Tooth & Nail or even GR Ponza with Arbor Elf / Utopia Sprawl. I created a thread in Deck Discussion to brew actual lists, but we can also just develop decks here, I guess. Interested to see where this goes.
As a long time RUG/BtL Scapeshift player, I definitely want some number of her in my 75. She seems perfect for grindy match ups and as an alternate wincon. Even the -3 can be valuable to buy back mountains, Snapcaster or Obstinate Baloth.
Jund doesnt want it because confidant.
Dredge doesnt want it because no grave synergy
Nahiri wants it maybe? But youd have to take out the nahiri package (which more or less wins the game on the spot when it goes off) and might make their aggro matchup better
Tron cant use it because of maps
Zoo wont get to 4 mana, unless you use big zoo... which case, zoo would like a 4 mana 8/8.
RG Breach probably wants it, I could easily see it slot into that.
Mardu is probably better off with nahiri... but I'm not good enough at these nahiri decks so someone might be able to correct me.
Kiki Cord could use it, especially if they have something fun to Evolve off it at 10 mana.
Burn doesnt want it, since they wont get to 4 mana
Grishoalbrand works off speed, so this at 4 mana isnt the best.
Living end could use it as a plan b, since it doesnt mess with their plan a.
U/R delver doesnt want it, they'd use relver or something instead.
Grixis... maybe wants it? They have a huge trouble against aggro with the amount of pain they get.
So out of that I see... Living end, titanshift, grixis, And MAYBE Kiki with evolution or zoo as a top ender.
About this I would say:
- The first +1 is damn good.
- The second plus 1 is wholly mediocre. Saying "2 spirit guides" is ridiculous because by the time that matters it's turn 3 earliest and you're using RR to... Pyroclasm? More likely, you get 7 mana on turn 5 and use it to... no idea.
- The -3 is not so good, but will do.
- The -7 is fairly conditional and so not great. Then again, if you get to the point where you can Ult Chandra, you're probably doing well enough that you can cast a few spells and stabilize/win. I just don't like how this Ult doesn't do anything to swing the game in your favour unless you're sitting on gas already.
I see this being a roleplayer in Jund and perhaps various other brews. But I don't see it becoming ubiquitous.