Given a reasonable rate for a body and a cheap source of card advantage how is the only deck that regularly runs Dark Confidant jund? Even other black midrange decks rarely play him.
Given a reasonable rate for a body and a cheap source of card advantage how is the only deck that regularly runs Dark Confidant jund? Even other black midrange decks rarely play him.
Jund, Esper midrange, and Mardu can run him. Other than that the issue is mainly that stoneforge mystic isn't legal. If stoneforge was legal, then Confidant would see more play because there would be more fair decks. It's mainly an issue that there are few fair decks in modern that can play him.
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I have been asking this exact same question. Keep in mind Abzan midrange builds will run him as well. I was playing mardu with bobs and young pyromancer for a while - it was a strong deck, but I would get blown out by cards that can trade with multiple x/1s more often than I would like.
I think there are lots of potential homes for this card that just haven't been fully explored yet. Personally, I think esper is a great example. Play Bob on T2 and if your opponent doesn't deal with it, they will quickly find that you have all the right answers. Maybe I will come back later today and post a decklist. I have also wondered why more people don't play Bob + counterbalance + sensei's divining top in legacy... seems like straight value.
The ultimate answer is that Jund is a well tested deck that has been around for a long time. People consider other decks and ask "why not just play Jund?" Spike plays to win, we need some Johnny/Spike types to brew decks and also put in the testing and tweaking to find the truly competitive lists.
I have returned with a deck list... Planning to give this a shot this weekend if I get the chance. Any thoughts?
If I had the cards, I would run a playset of either tar pits or Celestial Colonnade. If I had lilianas, I would play those and cut counter magic for discard.
Bob requires a lower than normal mana curve. No top of that, you need to have above average draws and top decks to make up for the life lost to Bob. So you need a lower than average curve, and above average card quality. Not a lot of decks can swing both of those requirements, Jund, and really the BGx family, being the front runner.
Bob used to be a real force, but the Burn players finally found a close to optimal build, and really punished players who relied on him too much. Then, for a while, the format was too fast, with TC crushing everything insight. And then again with the Eldrazi menace did Jund have to bow out of the decks to beat. Now with Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet on the scene, and the more degenerate decks removed or neutered, I think Bob has a much better meta game position.
Well, you want to pair Bob with lifegain. Maybe with the BW fastland coming out we'll see some BW lists with him, like BW hatebears.
That deck already exists pretty much with exile effects and wasteland stranglers and such. No reason you couldn't and shouldn't play bob there. That said Mardu has lots of builds that show up sometimes with bob. Sometimes with Mentor or Pyromancer and tokens or more creature based builds.
The main reason of why so few decks in Modern play him (in my opinion) is that he requires suitable build-lower mana curve to make him really good. He will cost you more life if you play a deck with bigger mana curve which makes him worse (for example that's why Junk usually doesn't play him while Jund does).
To be honest I think it's because lifegain sucks in non green colors. There aren't great lifegain creatures that have a low curve in modern tbh.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
You know where he is really, really good? WB Death & Taxes. Drawing extra cards in that deck means running your opponent to the ground search hate + Ghost Quarter and value-generating flickering tricks, and it has so many must-kill creatures that Confidant has a good chance of staying around if you run him out late.
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Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Combos well with Death's Shadow but no one is exploring those types of interactions.
Not really, one is telling you to grind out CA and out card your opponent. While the other is saying kill them quick, kill them really quick.
I guess without trying it out for yourself it might seem that way. Think about it like this: What is BG control's weakness? Burny fast aggro type decks because BG control shells use their life total as a resource via THoughtseize and fetching shock lands etc. Death's Shadow turns this weakness into an advantage. Bob turns on Death's Shadow and gains you cards while he does it. Better yet just look at my prototype list that has been performing very well.
I have asked this on both sides of the fence. Why would lifegain or all-in lists not play him more to push a win before the life loss is relevant. And also, recently, why play him at all. Mardu and Jund can play Sin Prodder now. Its a turn slower but makes them take damage or give you cards. One extra mana for +1/+1 and menace.
He is conditionally a great card restricts your list a bit.
Well, you want to pair Bob with lifegain. Maybe with the BW fastland coming out we'll see some BW lists with him, like BW hatebears.
That deck already exists pretty much with exile effects and wasteland stranglers and such. No reason you couldn't and shouldn't play bob there. That said Mardu has lots of builds that show up sometimes with bob. Sometimes with Mentor or Pyromancer and tokens or more creature based builds.
Yes, but it's harder to play Bob with a painful manabase. The BW fastlands help fix that.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I have asked this on both sides of the fence. Why would lifegain or all-in lists not play him more to push a win before the life loss is relevant. And also, recently, why play him at all. Mardu and Jund can play Sin Prodder now. Its a turn slower but makes them take damage or give you cards. One extra mana for +1/+1 and menace.
He is conditionally a great card restricts your list a bit.
Punisher cards are nearly 100% trash (vexing devil has been ok in the past but even it has gone away) giving opponents choices is not in your best interest
I have asked this on both sides of the fence. Why would lifegain or all-in lists not play him more to push a win before the life loss is relevant. And also, recently, why play him at all. Mardu and Jund can play Sin Prodder now. Its a turn slower but makes them take damage or give you cards. One extra mana for +1/+1 and menace.
He is conditionally a great card restricts your list a bit.
Punisher cards are nearly 100% trash (vexing devil has been ok in the past but even it has gone away) giving opponents choices is not in your best interest
Sin Prodder isn't as good because a) red doesn't need card draw as much the more controlling colors like blue and black b) both die to next to every single removal spell in the format (cough, cough, Lightning Bolt) c) it's one extra mana. Bob is good because he comes down in the really early game and is a real jump ahead for you (opponent already has a Tarmogoyf, their own Bob, or another relevant two drop.) d) the decks that want a Bob effect would rather play a Liliana or something on turn three instead of an accelerant and finally e) the decks that want Bob have a low curve anyway so the opponent can take 2-3 damage for a turn before the find an answer and you feel sad.
Bob is strictly better. Greatness, at any cost, after all.
Sin Prodder is straight up trash compared to Bob. Even if you get over the fact that it's a three mana creature that dies to everything, and the fact that he lets your opponent choose so that you always get the worse option, he even flips a land for 0 damage about 40% of the time. As a Jund player I wouldn't touch that thing with a 10 foot pole.
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Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
The main reason of why so few decks in Modern play him (in my opinion) is that he requires suitable build-lower mana curve to make him really good. He will cost you more life if you play a deck with bigger mana curve which makes him worse (for example that's why Junk usually doesn't play him while Jund does).
To be honest I think it's because lifegain sucks in non green colors. There aren't great lifegain creatures that have a low curve in modern tbh.
That's true too and he will probably cost you more in these decks because of that. If you have spells with lower cmc he can still be decent even if you don't have much life gain (Mardu plays him) but you need to play mostly cards with cmc 1 and 2 and few cards with cmc above of that.
I agree with this.
Low curve while each spell flipped is essentially a bomb; that's Jund.
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Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Green Black Control with Graveyard Advantages)
Standard
Probably Mono Red Sligh
Modern
Dredge
Legacy
Dredge
Jund, Esper midrange, and Mardu can run him. Other than that the issue is mainly that stoneforge mystic isn't legal. If stoneforge was legal, then Confidant would see more play because there would be more fair decks. It's mainly an issue that there are few fair decks in modern that can play him.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
I think there are lots of potential homes for this card that just haven't been fully explored yet. Personally, I think esper is a great example. Play Bob on T2 and if your opponent doesn't deal with it, they will quickly find that you have all the right answers. Maybe I will come back later today and post a decklist. I have also wondered why more people don't play Bob + counterbalance + sensei's divining top in legacy... seems like straight value.
The ultimate answer is that Jund is a well tested deck that has been around for a long time. People consider other decks and ask "why not just play Jund?" Spike plays to win, we need some Johnny/Spike types to brew decks and also put in the testing and tweaking to find the truly competitive lists.
If I had the cards, I would run a playset of either tar pits or Celestial Colonnade. If I had lilianas, I would play those and cut counter magic for discard.
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Cryptic Command
4x Dark Confidant
1x Dismember
1x Esper Charm
4x Flooded Strand
3x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Godless Shrine
2x Hallowed Fountain
4x Island
4x Lingering Souls
2x Mana Leak
4x Path to Exile
2x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
3x Remand
4x Serum Visions
1x Shambling Vent
4x Snapcaster Mage
1x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
1x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Swamp
2x Think Twice
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Watery Grave
2x Dispel
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Pithing Needle
2x Stony Silence
2x Supreme Verdict
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
Bob used to be a real force, but the Burn players finally found a close to optimal build, and really punished players who relied on him too much. Then, for a while, the format was too fast, with TC crushing everything insight. And then again with the Eldrazi menace did Jund have to bow out of the decks to beat. Now with Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet on the scene, and the more degenerate decks removed or neutered, I think Bob has a much better meta game position.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
That deck already exists pretty much with exile effects and wasteland stranglers and such. No reason you couldn't and shouldn't play bob there. That said Mardu has lots of builds that show up sometimes with bob. Sometimes with Mentor or Pyromancer and tokens or more creature based builds.
To be honest I think it's because lifegain sucks in non green colors. There aren't great lifegain creatures that have a low curve in modern tbh.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Not really, one is telling you to grind out CA and out card your opponent. While the other is saying kill them quick, kill them really quick.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Treetop Village
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Dark Confidant
4 Dismember
1 Bow of Nylea
4 Death's Shadow
3 Duress
4 Naturalize
4 Leyline of the Void
He is conditionally a great card restricts your list a bit.
Yes, but it's harder to play Bob with a painful manabase. The BW fastlands help fix that.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Punisher cards are nearly 100% trash (vexing devil has been ok in the past but even it has gone away) giving opponents choices is not in your best interest
Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Green Black Control with Graveyard Advantages)
Standard
Probably Mono Red Sligh
Modern
Dredge
Legacy
Dredge
Sin Prodder isn't as good because a) red doesn't need card draw as much the more controlling colors like blue and black b) both die to next to every single removal spell in the format (cough, cough, Lightning Bolt) c) it's one extra mana. Bob is good because he comes down in the really early game and is a real jump ahead for you (opponent already has a Tarmogoyf, their own Bob, or another relevant two drop.) d) the decks that want a Bob effect would rather play a Liliana or something on turn three instead of an accelerant and finally e) the decks that want Bob have a low curve anyway so the opponent can take 2-3 damage for a turn before the find an answer and you feel sad.
Bob is strictly better. Greatness, at any cost, after all.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Low curve while each spell flipped is essentially a bomb; that's Jund.
BGW ABZAN WGB
BGR JUND RGB