It's an interesting new tech which was shown on camera, but far from an accepted part of the SB. It's not the first time someone has tried playing regular damage creatures in the SB - long ago there was Geist of Saint Traft (although that player also had a totally useless SBed Emrakul, so make of that what you will), and more recently Kitchen Finks is seeing play in the SB for Burn.
It's an interesting new tech which was shown on camera, but far from an accepted part of the SB. It's not the first time someone has tried playing regular damage creatures in the SB - long ago there was Geist of Saint Traft (although that player also had a totally useless SBed Emrakul, so make of that what you will), and more recently Kitchen Finks is seeing play in the SB for Burn.
Not totally useless. Some people play Manic Scribe.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
the commentators are just saying how well positioned Jeskai Nahiri is vs Jund, just mentioning in case we still have people who think that all you have to do is cast a lotv and win...
This used to be very much the case, but between av and nahiri lotv is not quite the auto win it used to be
the commentators are just saying how well positioned Jeskai Nahiri is vs Jund, just mentioning in case we still have people who think that all you have to do is cast a lotv and win...
This used to be very much the case, but between av and nahiri lotv is not quite the auto win it used to be
Although I don't see them in Jund lists nowadays, one of our resident Jund players who recently moved played 2 Painful Truths in the main board and he could side up to 3 total, with 2 Kitchen Finks to offset some of the damage.
But as a long time UW player whose enemy was Jund, I can imagine that a Bloodbraid-less Jund would be much easier to handle. (although the last time I personally played it was at the beginning of Modern before DRS was printed and before BBE was banned) Spell Snare was a BEAST vs. that deck. I ran 4 of them at the time with 4 SCM.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
fair enough we can agree to disagree, but imo in your testing you're just the better player
just like foodchaingoblins, in his boggles vs Jund tests, i mean this guy has a crazy winrate with griselbrand if that was generic and not personal the deck would have been banned by now, but it's just one player overperforming and not an entire archetype
I think the matchup is similar in some ways to the Bogles/BGx matchup. I don't mean in consistency, because there is no argument that consistency leans to Jeskai Nahiri, then Jund, then a drop off to Bogles. There are crazy good cards vs. Jeskai Nahiri (not my choice of name, but for reference) and there are some that are not so good. Creature removal is not so good. Drawing all of the discard spells and pressure is pretty good.
Also (I know I did it with Jund/Junk, so I'm probably being a hypocrite ), you can't lump the matchup with all forms of Jeskai, Grixis, and UW, although the matchups are similar in many ways. I personally feel like most UW does much better of those 3 against Jund, although that in itself depends on the deck list because you're not thinking of the deck list that I'm thinking of. Case in point is I'm thinking of Emeria UW Titan.
*Regarding Grishoalbrand, I indeed did 24-1-8 IDs my first 2 months with the deck, as well as 2nd, 4th, and 5th at 3 PPTQs, so you can understand why I thought the deck was so good (especially since this is where I didn't play the deck as well). I thought the deck was strictly better than Bloom Titan. But in the next 2 months, I hit variance and was at about 50%. Nowadays when I run it, I average 4-2 to 5-1 with it, which is pretty close to my average with other decks anyway. So I have seen the poor draws from Grishoalbrand. I even have 2 separate hands saved on my phone to show some of this. One hand has 2 Borborygmos, 4 Griselbrand, and 1 Worldspine Wurm. The other is 3 Griselbrand, 3 Worldspine Wurm, and a Bobo. Obviously I mulled, but what are the chances of this happening? The variance is not just with openers, but mostly with the draws of the deck. It's a glass cannon deck, albeit one that's very powerful and has some consistency. It also happens to be my favorite deck.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I have a positive winrate against Jeskai too, while piloting Jund, but I think what's really important about my wins is that I play both decks. And Bill, I think you do too, or at least you have. Most Modern players haven't played many matchups from both sides and it goes a LONG way toward knowing how to approach the match.
I have a positive winrate against Jeskai too, while piloting Jund, but I think what's really important about my wins is that I play both decks. And Bill, I think you do too, or at least you have. Most Modern players haven't played many matchups from both sides and it goes a LONG way toward knowing how to approach the match.
Then it's 2 vs. 2. Me and Bill on UWR; you and Ayiluss on Jund.
I love the UW side of UW/Jund battles, although I've almost never played Jund, outside of (if you can call it that) BG Rock in Standard with Thoughtseize/Goyf and just pure attrition. I had an amazing win percentage with it though. lol.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
fair enough we can agree to disagree, but imo in your testing you're just the better player
just like foodchaingoblins, in his boggles vs Jund tests, i mean this guy has a crazy winrate with griselbrand if that was generic and not personal the deck would have been banned by now, but it's just one player overperforming and not an entire archetype
Oh yeah. I had and still have some broken records with Griselbrand (and it is really funny to play), but than again, it is (at least for me) a tick to unconsistent for my taste to really consider it for big tournaments. However, this doesn't stop me to make dumb decisions
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I feel extremely safe in calling the jund vs jeskai matchup 50/50. Both have draws that crush the other, both have draws that do nothing against eachother. I feel, giving both players their average draws, it is truly a matchup where the better player will triumph.
I feel extremely safe in calling the jund vs jeskai matchup 50/50. Both have draws that crush the other, both have draws that do nothing against eachother. I feel, giving both players their average draws, it is truly a matchup where the better player will triumph.
TBH, I feel nearly the same way. I do feel like Nahiri, the Harbinger and Ancestral Vision (if played) pushed the matchup only slightly in UWR's favor while Jund had to not change much because of other matchups that they need to maintain (they gained Kalitas, which is safe from Bolt/Helix, but seem unable to run Painful Truths right now).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
No decklists, but zoo in the top 8! Its alwasy felt powerful when I piloted it and so it was only a matter of time. Now just a matter of what his numbers are on path/rancor/mutagenic/ghor clan
so, I obviously don't want to hear anything else about Jeskai not being a real deck. I would have liked to see some spicy new Tron in there, but whatever, seems
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
so, I obviously don't want to hear anything else about Jeskai not being a real deck. I would have liked to see some spicy new Tron in there, but whatever, seems
Don't worry. The format naysayers will find a way to spin these results into something negative. For instance, if Infect wins, I expect we'll see nothing but "ban Become Immense" talk around the content-sphere for weeks.
I'm just curious to see if Lossett had any new tech in his recent Tron list.
I'm just curious to see if Lossett had any new tech in his recent Tron list.
Since I followed the stream, I can give you the following:
MD
1 Sudden Shock
1 Fog
4 Bolt
SB
1 Sudden Shock
1 Fog
I think, that's it (rest should be pretty standard).
Greetings,
Kathal
Whoa. He's really doubling-down on the maindeck spot removal then. +1 Fog is interesting, and I'd love to hear his rationale for committing that slot to a relatively narrow Fog when it could have been something like +1 Pyroclasm or a second Sudden Shock.
Happy to see Grixis Delver on stream. The deck has been stuck in the Tier 3 pits for a while now and it will be cool to see more of it. Can't say it's my favorite Ad Nauseam matchup, but hey, can't knock format diversity!
Happy to see Grixis Delver on stream. The deck has been stuck in the Tier 3 pits for a while now and it will be cool to see more of it. Can't say it's my favorite Ad Nauseam matchup, but hey, can't knock format diversity!
I think the commentator to the side of Matthias Hunt, Ryan Overturf, brought Grixis Delver back to light with his recent success at a large tournament. That was the first I've seen of Grixis Delver in a while. Even our resident FNM Delver player switched from UR back to Grixis.
@billzagoudis - I'm not sure if he realized that he had inevitability since it seemed like he had harder to kill threats left in the deck (Nahiri, not milling out because of Emrakul) or if he was just being ultra conservative.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Just realized that Peter Ingram's part of the bracket had him face both of his team members in the top 8 and 4. If he had won in the top 4, he would have faced a 3rd teammate. If he won that, they may have had to give him Jim Davis's "C" from his jersey.
Also, could someone explain to me how Infect beat Jund? Although I've never played the matchup, it would seem that Infect would be easier than Bogles since it opens up removal. Are Infect's speed and low cost in spells good enough to give a big nod?
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
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Commander
U Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
RG Zilortha, Strength Incarnate
WB Amalia Benavides Aguirre
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
This used to be very much the case, but between av and nahiri lotv is not quite the auto win it used to be
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Kevin Jones on Grixis Delver
Pete Ingram on Jeskai Nahiri
David Pierce on Living End
Andrew Jessup on Infect
Jim Davis on Jeskai Nahiri
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Although I don't see them in Jund lists nowadays, one of our resident Jund players who recently moved played 2 Painful Truths in the main board and he could side up to 3 total, with 2 Kitchen Finks to offset some of the damage.
But as a long time UW player whose enemy was Jund, I can imagine that a Bloodbraid-less Jund would be much easier to handle. (although the last time I personally played it was at the beginning of Modern before DRS was printed and before BBE was banned) Spell Snare was a BEAST vs. that deck. I ran 4 of them at the time with 4 SCM.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I think the matchup is similar in some ways to the Bogles/BGx matchup. I don't mean in consistency, because there is no argument that consistency leans to Jeskai Nahiri, then Jund, then a drop off to Bogles. There are crazy good cards vs. Jeskai Nahiri (not my choice of name, but for reference) and there are some that are not so good. Creature removal is not so good. Drawing all of the discard spells and pressure is pretty good.
Also (I know I did it with Jund/Junk, so I'm probably being a hypocrite ), you can't lump the matchup with all forms of Jeskai, Grixis, and UW, although the matchups are similar in many ways. I personally feel like most UW does much better of those 3 against Jund, although that in itself depends on the deck list because you're not thinking of the deck list that I'm thinking of. Case in point is I'm thinking of Emeria UW Titan.
*Regarding Grishoalbrand, I indeed did 24-1-8 IDs my first 2 months with the deck, as well as 2nd, 4th, and 5th at 3 PPTQs, so you can understand why I thought the deck was so good (especially since this is where I didn't play the deck as well). I thought the deck was strictly better than Bloom Titan. But in the next 2 months, I hit variance and was at about 50%. Nowadays when I run it, I average 4-2 to 5-1 with it, which is pretty close to my average with other decks anyway. So I have seen the poor draws from Grishoalbrand. I even have 2 separate hands saved on my phone to show some of this. One hand has 2 Borborygmos, 4 Griselbrand, and 1 Worldspine Wurm. The other is 3 Griselbrand, 3 Worldspine Wurm, and a Bobo. Obviously I mulled, but what are the chances of this happening? The variance is not just with openers, but mostly with the draws of the deck. It's a glass cannon deck, albeit one that's very powerful and has some consistency. It also happens to be my favorite deck.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Then it's 2 vs. 2. Me and Bill on UWR; you and Ayiluss on Jund.
I love the UW side of UW/Jund battles, although I've almost never played Jund, outside of (if you can call it that) BG Rock in Standard with Thoughtseize/Goyf and just pure attrition. I had an amazing win percentage with it though. lol.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Oh yeah. I had and still have some broken records with Griselbrand (and it is really funny to play), but than again, it is (at least for me) a tick to unconsistent for my taste to really consider it for big tournaments. However, this doesn't stop me to make dumb decisions
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
TBH, I feel nearly the same way. I do feel like Nahiri, the Harbinger and Ancestral Vision (if played) pushed the matchup only slightly in UWR's favor while Jund had to not change much because of other matchups that they need to maintain (they gained Kalitas, which is safe from Bolt/Helix, but seem unable to run Painful Truths right now).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)My H/W list
Infect v. Abzan Company
Zoo v. Jund
Jeskai Ctrl v. Jeskai Ctrl
Grixis Delver v. Living End
Not bad.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Don't worry. The format naysayers will find a way to spin these results into something negative. For instance, if Infect wins, I expect we'll see nothing but "ban Become Immense" talk around the content-sphere for weeks.
I'm just curious to see if Lossett had any new tech in his recent Tron list.
Since I followed the stream, I can give you the following:
MD
1 Sudden Shock
1 Fog
4 Bolt
SB
1 Sudden Shock
1 Fog
I think, that's it (rest should be pretty standard).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Whoa. He's really doubling-down on the maindeck spot removal then. +1 Fog is interesting, and I'd love to hear his rationale for committing that slot to a relatively narrow Fog when it could have been something like +1 Pyroclasm or a second Sudden Shock.
Happy to see Grixis Delver on stream. The deck has been stuck in the Tier 3 pits for a while now and it will be cool to see more of it. Can't say it's my favorite Ad Nauseam matchup, but hey, can't knock format diversity!
I think the commentator to the side of Matthias Hunt, Ryan Overturf, brought Grixis Delver back to light with his recent success at a large tournament. That was the first I've seen of Grixis Delver in a while. Even our resident FNM Delver player switched from UR back to Grixis.
@billzagoudis - I'm not sure if he realized that he had inevitability since it seemed like he had harder to kill threats left in the deck (Nahiri, not milling out because of Emrakul) or if he was just being ultra conservative.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)that blue mirror was...beautiful
modern so good right now~!~!
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Also, could someone explain to me how Infect beat Jund? Although I've never played the matchup, it would seem that Infect would be easier than Bogles since it opens up removal. Are Infect's speed and low cost in spells good enough to give a big nod?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)