If Esper planeswalkers become a thing the liliana might be descent in a deck where you do not want to discard yourself. You can use deploy the planeswalkers. And you can perhaps add lilanas oath. If you do then venser the planewalker might be interesting. You can blink the oath or the planeswalker depending on what you need.
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Based on Karstan's math the probability of hitting 2 PW off of DTG are actually better than I was expecting. Maybe a superfriends ramp deck could happen? Between Oath of Nissa, Birds, and Hiearch you could cast just about any of them. Idk if it would be tier 1-2 but getting out lots of PW in short order seems powerful.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
This Liliana is one of the best planeswalkers ever. My jaw dropped. She's not necessarily better than LotV but it's close. I am jealous. Black has almost always been an adversary color for me.
The power of LOTV is that she's good against 80+% of the field while the new one is good against far less archetypes.
LOTV kills creatures and controls hands, while this new one gives you CA against decks with creatures and decks that kill your creatures. Hmm, are there decks that don't play creatures and don't kill your creatures? I think there are some...
Wow, the new Liliana looks good. I have no black deck in modern, but will build one if I could get some copies of her.
And finally, after many years... we now have a legendary spider! Although seems unplayable in modern because of high casting cost.. and high mana requirement for the drain ability..
I'm not so sure, Superfriends is my pet archetype and I've always found that 7-8 PW cards is the max possible in a deck. The really impressive one for a PW deck in my opinion is Oath of Liliana. It does everything a PW deck wants. It's removal and it makes every PW generate additional board presence.
What makes LotV so powerful is that she's basically the Brainstorm of the format efficiently letting you use resources that would otherwise be dead. This new Liliana isn't so hot for resource conversion. She enables a decent amount of recursion, but recurring resources isn't as powerful as converting them.
How many walkers do you have to be running to consistently have two in your top seven? Missing on Coco is brutal, this one costs 2 mana more and is at sorcery speed so you'd better make sure you hit
In order to hit 2 at least 75% of the time you need 20 hits.
It really seems that wizards are going out of their way to not make a good madness enabler to force standard to have to run a bunch of other stuff to get good pay off cards. Problem is the madness cards arent grand enough for modern to have to jump through hoops to enable them. Madness is a free enabler, and 1-2 0 or 1 away from being even worth mentioning over dredge.
new liliana never had a chance in modern; at 1BB you have to ask yourself "why am I not playing LotV instead?" every time you'd consider her, and LotV is just unparalleled.
So I asked myself this question and the answer was: "because i play counterspells and snapcasters in URB and not removals and better topdecks like GRB, I like free thought scours to fuel tasigur and rebuying of GDD and Snaps more than I like mutual discard."
The more you know.
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It really seems that wizards are going out of their way to not make a good madness enabler to force standard to have to run a bunch of other stuff to get good pay off cards. Problem is the madness cards arent grand enough for modern to have to jump through hoops to enable them. Madness is a free enabler, and 1-2 0 or 1 away from being even worth mentioning over dredge.
I think this zombie is pretty good actually, considering it's a zombified version of Heritage Druid which draws cards. The discard enabling Madness is the icing on the cake.
I do think it needs a new shell, as it doesn't seem better than other options in Dredge, for example
It's better than Skirk Ridge Exhumer, but none of the spellshapers see play in Modern. Would not play in Dredge or Madness - in Dredge it can get killed before it does anything, and in Madness it needs mana to activate. Zombie Infestation is more breakable.
new liliana never had a chance in modern; at 1BB you have to ask yourself "why am I not playing LotV instead?" every time you'd consider her, and LotV is just unparalleled.
So I asked myself this question and the answer was: "because i play counterspells and snapcasters in URB and not removals and better topdecks like GRB, I like free thought scours to fuel tasigur and rebuying of GDD and Snaps more than I like mutual discard."
The more you know.
I had this same thought as well, while not full blown viable most likely, the new Liliana might be a step in the right direction for making and Esper or BUG list more viable in modern. In the past there wasn't a hug reason not to play Red or White instead, due to LotV discard and more tap out approach that Junk/Jund take.
For anyone who hasn't already seen it, Frank Karsten already did the math for Deploy the Gatewatch.
So at 20 walkers you have ~75% chance of hitting two and ~5% odds of a miss which are reasonable odds. 20 walkers is a pretty damn steep requirement and leaves very little room for support though
His calculation doesn't consider the scenario where you flip 2 PWs which have the same type, e.g. flipping Liliana of the Veil and Liliana, the Last Hope. Some of the flips which reveal 2 or more PWs are only going to end up putting one PW onto the battlefield.
6 mana sorcery is absolutely atrocious rate in modern if you don't hit 2 walkers over 80-85% of the time. Card was obviously designed for Standard/EDH.
6 mana sorcery is absolutely atrocious rate in modern if you don't hit 2 walkers over 80-85% of the time. Card was obviously designed for Standard/EDH.
It's both card advantage and mana ramp so everyone's trying to live the dream. Inconsistent, 6-mana sorcery, with heavy deck-building constraints that isn't "Win the game"? Yeah, I'm out and I like a good brew more than most.
Why would you run her over Liliana of the Veil in a Rock deck? .-.
LotV is WAY stronger.
New Lili's +1 is rather mediocre, though it can turn Disfigures into pseudo Lighting Bolts and be ok in some situations.
But her -2 doesn't really do a lot.
In BUG you don't need recursion as much, thanks to the tons of card draw you can run and how sticky your creatures are to begin with.
And on an empty board she doesn't do much either.
Sure, her ultimate wins the game quickly, but so does LotV's, but the sacrificing part can also just end the game for e.g. combo decks or big mana decks right then and there, and she gets it a turn sooner, while keeping opponents hellbent.
If you could have both out at once I'd try 1-2 in my BUG midrange deck,tbh, but if I have to choose between the two, LotV all the way.
So, Yes, new Lili is decent at grinding, but old Lili just does a lot more against a lot more achetypes (mainly Combo and Control, who have a much harder time sculpting their hand or gaining card advantage).
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New really interesting card got spoiled: Grim Flayer
Need more Tarmogoyfs? Here comes number 5-8!
Is it as good as Goyf? Hell no! Delirium grants that he can't be splashed in just about any deck, but evasion and deck stacking are powerful bonuses.
Really looking forward to brew some BUG Delirium builds! (Too bad it's a mythic though)
New really interesting card got spoiled: Grim Flayer
Need more Tarmogoyfs? Here comes number 5-8!
Is it as good as Goyf? Hell no! Delirium grants that he can't be splashed in just about any deck, but evasion and deck stacking are powerful bonuses.
Really looking forward to brew some BUG Delirium builds! (Too bad it's a mythic though)
Iuno, card seems insane to curve into LotV. Her +1 helps enable Delirium with his ability but I think what really pushes this guy over the top is its ability. Fixing your draws is nuts. Its a 2/2 sure, but if its not dealt with it will take over the game by itself. The card filtering will get you out of nearly any situation. Its essentially Scry 3. I think its definitely Modern playable.
The biggest hurtle I think is if you are in B/G/x, what are you giving this guy the nod over? Its like he is Tarmo and Bob rolled into 1 card without being quite as good as either one. It doesn't end games as quickly, and isn't as resilient in combat as Tarmo and it doesn't put the cards in your hand like Bob. However he attacks better than Bob and helps develop insurmountable card advantage which Tarmo doesn't do at all. If you are in B/G/x you are probably just playing Tarmo and Bob and don't really have a place for this guy.
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It's the set's Putrid Leech or Rakshasa Deathdealer. Those tend to be good in Standard but not Modern. I like the design of it - after a hit you get to stack your deck so that you're closer to delirium, you don't draw into things that you don't need, and you get cards that are more useful in the graveyard there (e.g. Bloodghast). The problem is that its base stats are not very good - a 2-mana 2/2 is puny when there are 1-drops that are 2/3s or 3/3s. Even if you manage to get it up to 4/4 it still loses to Goyf, not that it's easy to do that in the first place (getting Putrid Leech to 4/4 is certainly easier).
It's the set's Putrid Leech or Rakshasa Deathdealer. Those tend to be good in Standard but not Modern. I like the design of it - after a hit you get to stack your deck so that you're closer to delirium, you don't draw into things that you don't need, and you get cards that are more useful in the graveyard there (e.g. Bloodghast). The problem is that its base stats are not very good - a 2-mana 2/2 is puny when there are 1-drops that are 2/3s or 3/3s. Even if you manage to get it up to 4/4 it still loses to Goyf, not that it's easy to do that in the first place (getting Putrid Leech to 4/4 is certainly easier).
Putrid Leech and Rakshasa both require a constant source of payment to become 4/4s and neither have trample; not really fair comparisons at all.
I realy like the new Liliana, but what do you think?
Would she be good in a slighty modified Grixis control deck? Would she spawn a new deck?
I believe a BUG control list can use her and gain a recursion engine comparable to Kolaghan's Command in grixis (it's so sad I don't have Tarmos... :frown:).
I am talking of something in the line of:
Liliana of the Veil is good because the +1 is always relevant, and advances BG rock toward the desired mutual hellbent gamestate. That is a big deal.
BGx midrange then seeks to outmuscle opponents by winning the topdeck war with beefier, self-sufficient cards.
This new Liliana would need to find a home in a different deck, but it's unclear what decks want her. Even then, what decks would really want her beyond a 2-of in the sideboard?
She is generally a Prodigal Pyromancer in black. Izzet Staticaster trumps her in Grixis on account of flash, and you wouldn't exactly splash her in Jeskai.
So that pretty much leaves either UB or Sultai control. Trouble is that if you get her out, she actually takes a while before she can reach her ultimate. Which should be her biggest draw.
In a format where Nahiri ticks up as fast as she does, some people have taken to running Dreadbore and other answers for planeswalkers. Opponents have a large window to interrupt Liliana.
UB and Sultai control need a lot more going for it than Liliana the Last Hope to be contenders. I've said it before, she's a two-of in the sideboard.
- - - - - - - - -
I like the new black bear, but delirium's difficulty is easily underestimated. Tarmogoyf becomes a 3/4 with only 3 card types, counted by your opponents' graveyard too.
Tarmogoyf is as easy as T1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition for a non-sorcery and T1/T2 fetchland. Boom.
That's as few as only two card types from yourself - double the speed of delirium.
Delirium is very interesting in Modern, but the lines of play required to enable it early are very inconsistent and often require you to run bad cards or clog deck space.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
There's always going to be people who only want to consider new cards in the context of established decks. Those people are the ones who compare old Lili to the new one.
On the other hand there's also people who get excited about the new archetypes that a card could help achieve. That's me. I've been overly optimistic before.
But in between those extremes lies good deck-building.
New Lili has a good cmc, protects herself and provides card advantage. Her ult isn't amazing but it does end games. She would be excellent in a deck that can take advantage of every aspect of her -2. Filling your graveyard can be good. Recurring threats to your hand can be good. Is this a dredge thing? Does it help enable delirium? Etc... More directly, is there a combo with cards that also affect power or toughness? If Lili's +1 cannot destroy a creature, maybe she can reduce its power to 0? There's plenty of ways that you could potentially skin this cat. I'm not too familiar with the black cards as I said before, so maybe the pieces just don't exist. I don't know. My gut says there's something, but I can't say what yet. Of course I'm overly optimistic sometimes, but it would be a shame to dismiss the possibilities.
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You could always just give in to the dark side!
LOTV kills creatures and controls hands, while this new one gives you CA against decks with creatures and decks that kill your creatures. Hmm, are there decks that don't play creatures and don't kill your creatures? I think there are some...
And finally, after many years... we now have a legendary spider! Although seems unplayable in modern because of high casting cost.. and high mana requirement for the drain ability..
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I'm not so sure, Superfriends is my pet archetype and I've always found that 7-8 PW cards is the max possible in a deck. The really impressive one for a PW deck in my opinion is Oath of Liliana. It does everything a PW deck wants. It's removal and it makes every PW generate additional board presence.
What makes LotV so powerful is that she's basically the Brainstorm of the format efficiently letting you use resources that would otherwise be dead. This new Liliana isn't so hot for resource conversion. She enables a decent amount of recursion, but recurring resources isn't as powerful as converting them.
In order to hit 2 at least 75% of the time you need 20 hits.
It really seems that wizards are going out of their way to not make a good madness enabler to force standard to have to run a bunch of other stuff to get good pay off cards. Problem is the madness cards arent grand enough for modern to have to jump through hoops to enable them. Madness is a free enabler, and 1-2 0 or 1 away from being even worth mentioning over dredge.
So I asked myself this question and the answer was: "because i play counterspells and snapcasters in URB and not removals and better topdecks like GRB, I like free thought scours to fuel tasigur and rebuying of GDD and Snaps more than I like mutual discard."
The more you know.
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I think this zombie is pretty good actually, considering it's a zombified version of Heritage Druid which draws cards. The discard enabling Madness is the icing on the cake.
I do think it needs a new shell, as it doesn't seem better than other options in Dredge, for example
It's better than Skirk Ridge Exhumer, but none of the spellshapers see play in Modern. Would not play in Dredge or Madness - in Dredge it can get killed before it does anything, and in Madness it needs mana to activate. Zombie Infestation is more breakable.
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Big Johnny.
I had this same thought as well, while not full blown viable most likely, the new Liliana might be a step in the right direction for making and Esper or BUG list more viable in modern. In the past there wasn't a hug reason not to play Red or White instead, due to LotV discard and more tap out approach that Junk/Jund take.
So at 20 walkers you have ~75% chance of hitting two and ~5% odds of a miss which are reasonable odds. 20 walkers is a pretty damn steep requirement and leaves very little room for support though
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Big Johnny.
It's both card advantage and mana ramp so everyone's trying to live the dream. Inconsistent, 6-mana sorcery, with heavy deck-building constraints that isn't "Win the game"? Yeah, I'm out and I like a good brew more than most.
LotV is WAY stronger.
New Lili's +1 is rather mediocre, though it can turn Disfigures into pseudo Lighting Bolts and be ok in some situations.
But her -2 doesn't really do a lot.
In BUG you don't need recursion as much, thanks to the tons of card draw you can run and how sticky your creatures are to begin with.
And on an empty board she doesn't do much either.
Sure, her ultimate wins the game quickly, but so does LotV's, but the sacrificing part can also just end the game for e.g. combo decks or big mana decks right then and there, and she gets it a turn sooner, while keeping opponents hellbent.
If you could have both out at once I'd try 1-2 in my BUG midrange deck,tbh, but if I have to choose between the two, LotV all the way.
So, Yes, new Lili is decent at grinding, but old Lili just does a lot more against a lot more achetypes (mainly Combo and Control, who have a much harder time sculpting their hand or gaining card advantage).
Standard infinite combos giving you a headache and the opponent always has Force of Will?
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Need more Tarmogoyfs? Here comes number 5-8!
Is it as good as Goyf? Hell no! Delirium grants that he can't be splashed in just about any deck, but evasion and deck stacking are powerful bonuses.
Really looking forward to brew some BUG Delirium builds! (Too bad it's a mythic though)
Iuno, card seems insane to curve into LotV. Her +1 helps enable Delirium with his ability but I think what really pushes this guy over the top is its ability. Fixing your draws is nuts. Its a 2/2 sure, but if its not dealt with it will take over the game by itself. The card filtering will get you out of nearly any situation. Its essentially Scry 3. I think its definitely Modern playable.
The biggest hurtle I think is if you are in B/G/x, what are you giving this guy the nod over? Its like he is Tarmo and Bob rolled into 1 card without being quite as good as either one. It doesn't end games as quickly, and isn't as resilient in combat as Tarmo and it doesn't put the cards in your hand like Bob. However he attacks better than Bob and helps develop insurmountable card advantage which Tarmo doesn't do at all. If you are in B/G/x you are probably just playing Tarmo and Bob and don't really have a place for this guy.
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Big Johnny.
Putrid Leech and Rakshasa both require a constant source of payment to become 4/4s and neither have trample; not really fair comparisons at all.
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Big Johnny.
Liliana of the Veil is good because the +1 is always relevant, and advances BG rock toward the desired mutual hellbent gamestate. That is a big deal.
BGx midrange then seeks to outmuscle opponents by winning the topdeck war with beefier, self-sufficient cards.
This new Liliana would need to find a home in a different deck, but it's unclear what decks want her. Even then, what decks would really want her beyond a 2-of in the sideboard?
She is generally a Prodigal Pyromancer in black. Izzet Staticaster trumps her in Grixis on account of flash, and you wouldn't exactly splash her in Jeskai.
So that pretty much leaves either UB or Sultai control. Trouble is that if you get her out, she actually takes a while before she can reach her ultimate. Which should be her biggest draw.
In a format where Nahiri ticks up as fast as she does, some people have taken to running Dreadbore and other answers for planeswalkers. Opponents have a large window to interrupt Liliana.
UB and Sultai control need a lot more going for it than Liliana the Last Hope to be contenders. I've said it before, she's a two-of in the sideboard.
- - - - - - - - -
I like the new black bear, but delirium's difficulty is easily underestimated. Tarmogoyf becomes a 3/4 with only 3 card types, counted by your opponents' graveyard too.
Tarmogoyf is as easy as T1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition for a non-sorcery and T1/T2 fetchland. Boom.
That's as few as only two card types from yourself - double the speed of delirium.
Delirium is very interesting in Modern, but the lines of play required to enable it early are very inconsistent and often require you to run bad cards or clog deck space.
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10/10, I tapped.
On the other hand there's also people who get excited about the new archetypes that a card could help achieve. That's me. I've been overly optimistic before.
But in between those extremes lies good deck-building.
New Lili has a good cmc, protects herself and provides card advantage. Her ult isn't amazing but it does end games. She would be excellent in a deck that can take advantage of every aspect of her -2. Filling your graveyard can be good. Recurring threats to your hand can be good. Is this a dredge thing? Does it help enable delirium? Etc... More directly, is there a combo with cards that also affect power or toughness? If Lili's +1 cannot destroy a creature, maybe she can reduce its power to 0? There's plenty of ways that you could potentially skin this cat. I'm not too familiar with the black cards as I said before, so maybe the pieces just don't exist. I don't know. My gut says there's something, but I can't say what yet. Of course I'm overly optimistic sometimes, but it would be a shame to dismiss the possibilities.