Can the Allosaurus Evolution combo be prevented by a simple bolt at the Rider? You don't need to pass priority, don't you? this would make it safe... too safe.
No, since you don't pass priority.
However, either way, that is not a win, there does not exist any creature which lets you win on the spot, especially if you used Pact to grab him. Yes, you can use the Griselbrand + Shoal + Borbor combo to win, but this takes way to many slots to pull off.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Also it is highly inconsistent.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Those kinds of consistent value plays are much more interesting than a combo that requires you to have 7 cards (1 dork, 2 lands, 1 Rider, 2 green cards to pitch, 1 Evolution).
EDIT: the combo gets significantly better if you can figure out a way to Summoner's Pact the missing pieces without dying next turn.
Can the Allosaurus Evolution combo be prevented by a simple bolt at the Rider? You don't need to pass priority, don't you? this would make it safe... too safe.
No, since you don't pass priority.
However, either way, that is not a win, there does not exist any creature which lets you win on the spot, especially if you used Pact to grab him. Yes, you can use the Griselbrand + Shoal + Borbor combo to win, but this takes way to many slots to pull off.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Also it is highly inconsistent.
And the turn 2 required an accelerant so if you kill that accelerant (whether it's a dork or Utopia Sprawl or whatever) your opponent won't be able to pay for Pact and lose unless they fetched primeval Titan (at which point you kill Primeval titan, they tap out and now likely have 0 cards left in hand and only 4 lands onboard for their effort.
Eternal Scourge reminds me more of Nether Spirit in terms of it's application than it does Misthollow Griffin. Four of that guy and a relic of progenitus is a never ending recursive threat.
Eternal Scourge could be a thing if it wasn't as mediocre as it is. Even in a control shell you just don't want to run it.
Control doesn't want an almost unkillable cheap recursive threat?
Eternal Scourge? Almost unkillable... except by a Wild Nacatl in combat? Doesn't seem like it's worth much work to get it back from the yard. It's not quite as resilient as it sounds once you actually have to jam it sideways to get any value.
So far the two cards I'm most excited for are Curious Homunculus and Eldritch Evolution. Those have the baseline power of modern playables, if there is a good home for them.
Eternal Scourge could be a thing if it wasn't as mediocre as it is. Even in a control shell you just don't want to run it.
Control doesn't want an almost unkillable cheap recursive threat?
Eternal Scourge? Almost unkillable... except by a Wild Nacatl in combat? Doesn't seem like it's worth much work to get it back from the yard. It's not quite as resilient as it sounds once you actually have to jam it sideways to get any value.
So far the two cards I'm most excited for are Curious Homunculus and Eldritch Evolution. Those have the baseline power of modern playables, if there is a good home for them.
It dies to Lili -2, any board sweeper, and other edict effects. Essentially things that don't target to kill. Speaking of which. Man I'd love Council's Judgement in Modern.
Eternal Scourge could be a thing if it wasn't as mediocre as it is. Even in a control shell you just don't want to run it.
Control doesn't want an almost unkillable cheap recursive threat?
Eternal Scourge? Almost unkillable... except by a Wild Nacatl in combat? Doesn't seem like it's worth much work to get it back from the yard. It's not quite as resilient as it sounds once you actually have to jam it sideways to get any value.
So far the two cards I'm most excited for are Curious Homunculus and Eldritch Evolution. Those have the baseline power of modern playables, if there is a good home for them.
It dies to Lili -2, any board sweeper, and other edict effects. Essentially things that don't target to kill. Speaking of which. Man I'd love Council's Judgement in Modern.
Getting it out of your graveyard should be pretty easy though - which is why I mentioned it with Relic of Progenitus. Relic is already good mainboard, this just gives you more of a reason to point it at yourself. Block (and kill!) nacatl, exile it with relic, replay next turn IS strong.
Heck, thinking about it, when the first one dies in combat you can surgical yourself to essentially draw three cards and get the first back. That's a 3/3 threat that ONLY dies via combat damage every turn that you can potentially keep getting back with Relic. Again, that's strong.
I disagree that the existence of Relic makes it a reasonable idea that we should be investing (control) deck space into setting up a 3/3 to recur from the yard when it offers no value on its own.
I mean, Misthollow griffin sees zero play. Granted, this new take on the idea is a bit stronger and more efficient, but I really don't see it being efficient enough for modern decks.
I could be wrong though - it does happen.
edit: Also, while relic has been maindeckable in the past, is it currently seeing maindeck play? I don't think RG tron is running it still, so where are we seeing maindeck relics?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Eternal Scourge is obviously only good alongside Relic of Progenitus or Scavenging Ooze or both. There it is pure value and very nearly impossible to get rid of. There are decks that already run one or both of these cards in multiples that may put it to work.
I disagree that the existence of Relic makes it a reasonable idea that we should be investing (control) deck space into setting up a 3/3 to recur from the yard when it offers no value on its own.
I mean, Misthollow griffin sees zero play. Granted, this new take on the idea is a bit stronger and more efficient, but I really don't see it being efficient enough for modern decks.
I could be wrong though - it does happen.
edit: Also, while relic has been maindeckable in the past, is it currently seeing maindeck play? I don't think RG tron is running it still, so where are we seeing maindeck relics?
I get it, just speculating for fun.
I do think this is an upgrade for Griffin - you're not bound to UU at all, it's only 3cmc (so it's not nearly as painful to buy back every turn), and it's Norin 'drawback' is actually kind of awesome because it turns off basically anything that isn't LOTV or combat damage.
It also pairs pretty well with Rest in Peace.
The thing is you're really not making any huge concessions by playing these cards because they're all good in a diverse metagame. We're not talking about needing to play the ridiculously silly Allosaurus Rider to enable this - we're talking about Scooze, Surgical, and Relic. I only think that there's maybe a little more potential there than you might think at first glance.
.. and if we're going deeeeeep on that gravy train then you might want to pair this with Displacer and Wasteland strangler for some W/B Eldrazi processor control. Man. That sounds sweet.
It'd be neat to see a deck that can use it well in any case. It has some friends Skaab Ruinator and Misthollow griffin that might work out in a dredge shell?
Is it really that much better than Misthollow griffin? Agree to disagree there. Like I said, I could be wrong!
Yeah, it's way better than Misthollow Griffin because it's an Eldrazi, it's already cheaper and easier to cast, and it turns targeted removal into boomerang. This card makes a lot of sense in Processors. It's something you're going to have to deal with basically every turn (granted it's not much of a threat). In multiples, the card advantage is substantial.
Is it really that much better than Misthollow griffin? Agree to disagree there. Like I said, I could be wrong!
Yeah, it's way better than Misthollow Griffin because it's an Eldrazi, it's already cheaper and easier to cast, and it turns targeted removal into boomerang. This card makes a lot of sense in Processors. It's something you're going to have to deal with basically every turn (granted it's not much of a threat). In multiples, the card advantage is substantial.
Processors is a list that likes to mainboard Relic as well so that is a 2fer (not to mention Eldrazi temple making it a 3/3 for "2"). It's good but even if removal doesn't "kill" it and you are able to recast it, only in the control\midrange matchup is that really relevent. If a Zooish deck kills it... it's exiled and they are still beating your face in. Can't survive too many turns like that regardless if you get to tap out to recast it the following turn. If it had flash.. then we'd be talking straight gas.
Is it really that much better than Misthollow griffin? Agree to disagree there. Like I said, I could be wrong!
Yeah, it's way better than Misthollow Griffin because it's an Eldrazi, it's already cheaper and easier to cast, and it turns targeted removal into boomerang. This card makes a lot of sense in Processors. It's something you're going to have to deal with basically every turn (granted it's not much of a threat). In multiples, the card advantage is substantial.
Processors is a list that likes to mainboard Relic as well so that is a 2fer (not to mention Eldrazi temple making it a 3/3 for "2"). It's good but even if removal doesn't "kill" it and you are able to recast it, only in the control\midrange matchup is that really relevent. If a Zooish deck kills it... it's exiled and they are still beating your face in. Can't survive too many turns like that regardless if you get to tap out to recast it the following turn. If it had flash.. then we'd be talking straight gas.
Turn 1 WB land - Inquisition - Turn 2 Eldrazi Temple - ES - when it dies hit it with surgical - now you've got a 3/3 threat or blocker every single turn no matter what (assuming you can find some relics). In decks that can throw tons of creatures at you the 3/3 body is no joke, and in decks that run fewer threats the infinite blocking is no joke.
Is it really that much better than Misthollow griffin? Agree to disagree there. Like I said, I could be wrong!
Yeah, it's way better than Misthollow Griffin because it's an Eldrazi, it's already cheaper and easier to cast, and it turns targeted removal into boomerang. This card makes a lot of sense in Processors. It's something you're going to have to deal with basically every turn (granted it's not much of a threat). In multiples, the card advantage is substantial.
Processors is a list that likes to mainboard Relic as well so that is a 2fer (not to mention Eldrazi temple making it a 3/3 for "2"). It's good but even if removal doesn't "kill" it and you are able to recast it, only in the control\midrange matchup is that really relevent. If a Zooish deck kills it... it's exiled and they are still beating your face in. Can't survive too many turns like that regardless if you get to tap out to recast it the following turn. If it had flash.. then we'd be talking straight gas.
Turn 1 WB land - Inquisition - Turn 2 Eldrazi Temple - ES - when it dies hit it with surgical - now you've got a 3/3 threat or blocker every single turn no matter what (assuming you can find some relics). In decks that can throw tons of creatures at you the 3/3 body is no joke, and in decks that run fewer threats the infinite blocking is no joke.
I agree with you in Processors it isn't too bad because they like the MB GY exile effects. Also they were desperately wanting more early game things like this to chump and eat removal (so that their bigger threats have time to resolve).
That Hymn to Tourach is very intriguing. Delirium is much harder to get than people think, and you'd want it by turn 2, and while spending only 1 mana to set it up on t1. Pretty hard, but something may be viable.
That Hymn to Tourach is very intriguing. Delirium is much harder to get than people think, and you'd want it by turn 2, and while spending only 1 mana to set it up on t1. Pretty hard, but something may be viable.
I think it may be less about enabling Delirium quickly and more just added value when you get there. I still think 1 random card is pretty good if you need to just rip it without delirium.
Those kinds of consistent value plays are much more interesting than a combo that requires you to have 7 cards (1 dork, 2 lands, 1 Rider, 2 green cards to pitch, 1 Evolution).
The trouble I'm having with eldrich moon is that a lot of the cards are interesting and would be obviously good in a more low powered environment, but with Modern being a nitro powered nightmare it's hard for anything to really survive unless it interacts in a very unique way, which makes the true modern playables in the set difficult to locate. EDH is having a ball with this block, though. So many great commander cards are joining the fray, let alone new commanders that are expanding the color pool.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Those kinds of consistent value plays are much more interesting than a combo that requires you to have 7 cards (1 dork, 2 lands, 1 Rider, 2 green cards to pitch, 1 Evolution).
It's not more interesting nor is it even good.
T2 Moon effects can just end the game on the spot in plenty of matchups, even if Magus is Boltable. You can also substitute any number of CMC 2-3 toolbox creatures into that sequence depending on the matchup. Those kinds of consistent, fast, toolbox lines were a huge reason GSZ was so good amd this card emulates an important part of that functionality.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Over-Extended/Modern Since 2010
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Just when Coco was finally about to be gone..
No, since you don't pass priority.
However, either way, that is not a win, there does not exist any creature which lets you win on the spot, especially if you used Pact to grab him. Yes, you can use the Griselbrand + Shoal + Borbor combo to win, but this takes way to many slots to pull off.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Also it is highly inconsistent.
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Now, here's a combo I can get behind:
T1: Dork
T2: Evolution into Magus of the Moon
Those kinds of consistent value plays are much more interesting than a combo that requires you to have 7 cards (1 dork, 2 lands, 1 Rider, 2 green cards to pitch, 1 Evolution).
EDIT: the combo gets significantly better if you can figure out a way to Summoner's Pact the missing pieces without dying next turn.
And the turn 2 required an accelerant so if you kill that accelerant (whether it's a dork or Utopia Sprawl or whatever) your opponent won't be able to pay for Pact and lose unless they fetched primeval Titan (at which point you kill Primeval titan, they tap out and now likely have 0 cards left in hand and only 4 lands onboard for their effort.
I guess we will need to see what cards survive the hype.
Control doesn't want an almost unkillable cheap recursive threat?
Eternal Scourge? Almost unkillable... except by a Wild Nacatl in combat? Doesn't seem like it's worth much work to get it back from the yard. It's not quite as resilient as it sounds once you actually have to jam it sideways to get any value.
So far the two cards I'm most excited for are Curious Homunculus and Eldritch Evolution. Those have the baseline power of modern playables, if there is a good home for them.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
It dies to Lili -2, any board sweeper, and other edict effects. Essentially things that don't target to kill. Speaking of which. Man I'd love Council's Judgement in Modern.
Getting it out of your graveyard should be pretty easy though - which is why I mentioned it with Relic of Progenitus. Relic is already good mainboard, this just gives you more of a reason to point it at yourself. Block (and kill!) nacatl, exile it with relic, replay next turn IS strong.
Heck, thinking about it, when the first one dies in combat you can surgical yourself to essentially draw three cards and get the first back. That's a 3/3 threat that ONLY dies via combat damage every turn that you can potentially keep getting back with Relic. Again, that's strong.
I mean, Misthollow griffin sees zero play. Granted, this new take on the idea is a bit stronger and more efficient, but I really don't see it being efficient enough for modern decks.
I could be wrong though - it does happen.
edit: Also, while relic has been maindeckable in the past, is it currently seeing maindeck play? I don't think RG tron is running it still, so where are we seeing maindeck relics?
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
CG
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I get it, just speculating for fun.
I do think this is an upgrade for Griffin - you're not bound to UU at all, it's only 3cmc (so it's not nearly as painful to buy back every turn), and it's Norin 'drawback' is actually kind of awesome because it turns off basically anything that isn't LOTV or combat damage.
It also pairs pretty well with Rest in Peace.
The thing is you're really not making any huge concessions by playing these cards because they're all good in a diverse metagame. We're not talking about needing to play the ridiculously silly Allosaurus Rider to enable this - we're talking about Scooze, Surgical, and Relic. I only think that there's maybe a little more potential there than you might think at first glance.
.. and if we're going deeeeeep on that gravy train then you might want to pair this with Displacer and Wasteland strangler for some W/B Eldrazi processor control. Man. That sounds sweet.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Yeah, it's way better than Misthollow Griffin because it's an Eldrazi, it's already cheaper and easier to cast, and it turns targeted removal into boomerang. This card makes a lot of sense in Processors. It's something you're going to have to deal with basically every turn (granted it's not much of a threat). In multiples, the card advantage is substantial.
CG
Processors is a list that likes to mainboard Relic as well so that is a 2fer (not to mention Eldrazi temple making it a 3/3 for "2"). It's good but even if removal doesn't "kill" it and you are able to recast it, only in the control\midrange matchup is that really relevent. If a Zooish deck kills it... it's exiled and they are still beating your face in. Can't survive too many turns like that regardless if you get to tap out to recast it the following turn. If it had flash.. then we'd be talking straight gas.
Turn 1 WB land - Inquisition - Turn 2 Eldrazi Temple - ES - when it dies hit it with surgical - now you've got a 3/3 threat or blocker every single turn no matter what (assuming you can find some relics). In decks that can throw tons of creatures at you the 3/3 body is no joke, and in decks that run fewer threats the infinite blocking is no joke.
I agree with you in Processors it isn't too bad because they like the MB GY exile effects. Also they were desperately wanting more early game things like this to chump and eat removal (so that their bigger threats have time to resolve).
Rough sketch:
Traverse the Whispers
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Shriekmaw
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Whispers of Emrakul
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Watery Grave
2 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
Lacks a bit of removal, but its a start
I think it may be less about enabling Delirium quickly and more just added value when you get there. I still think 1 random card is pretty good if you need to just rip it without delirium.
It's not more interesting nor is it even good.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
T2 Moon effects can just end the game on the spot in plenty of matchups, even if Magus is Boltable. You can also substitute any number of CMC 2-3 toolbox creatures into that sequence depending on the matchup. Those kinds of consistent, fast, toolbox lines were a huge reason GSZ was so good amd this card emulates an important part of that functionality.