This thing has a high cmc but a pretty nice body and then doubles as a lord and token producer
Another flavor-win with this cycle is that they also increase in rarity as it goes. Delver is common, the middle was uncommon, and this is rare.
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The following link is an invitation to join Pucatrade (card trading service though similar to TCGPLayer). If you follow the link then it awards me with tokens to exchange for actual cards. Thanks! https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
Would Accumulated Knowledge actually be good in Modern? If you compare Mana Leak vs Rune Snag, the average Mana Leak is better than the average Rune Snage. Accumulated Knowledge has no direct comparison, but I'd estimate the average Accumulated Knowledge to be approximately equal to Anticipate, and Anticipate sees very little play.
The main way I think AK would see play is if the control decks started playing it, blue decks that wanted the card advantage to fight control would board it in. The new one doesnt care about your opponents graveyard though so this case doesn't exist with it.
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UBR ANT UBR TES UBR TNT GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
Regarding Lone Rider: Not to say that I disagree with you, but my pet deck is a RW control deck that has always had some number of Lightning Helix and Ajani Vengeant, and I was never satisfied with any of the 2 drops available to me for various reasons.
Nahiri has already helped make the color combination interesting, but now there's also this.
I think the card is a pocket card. The Spike will compare it to existing decks and look for fits. The Johnny tries to build a home for it. Johnnies misfire more often than not, but at 2 cmc it's got the feel of a card that might be really worth building around.
Would Accumulated Knowledge actually be good in Modern? If you compare Mana Leak vs Rune Snag, the average Mana Leak is better than the average Rune Snag. Accumulated Knowledge has no direct comparison, but I'd estimate the average Accumulated Knowledge to be approximately equal to Anticipate, and Anticipate sees very little play.
I understand the comparison you're making, but I feel that situational counterspells have a much higher bar to surpass than card draw.
That's actually a pretty good synergy but I can't see it getting there for Modern. It is a powerful card so getting some play in Soul Sisters could happen. Is it better than Ajani's Pridemate? The multiple triggers will cause the Pridemate to become bigger faster.
They probably would have had to change it to "your graveyard" instead of all graveyards but man is this card disappointing. I feel like the entire cycle will be unplayable.
From what the article said it's not a cycle, just the two of them (I think). The red one can be compared to Fiery Impulse since it only hits creatures. The blue one could see some play in jank combo decks, but there are going to be a lot of options fighting for those spots.
When I play jank combo I max Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand first. 1-mana cantrips chain easily into each other and let you keep 1-land hands. 2-mana draw spells do neither of these.
If you play black there is Night's Whisper as your 2-mana draw spell.
Would Accumulated Knowledge actually be good in Modern? If you compare Mana Leak vs Rune Snag, the average Mana Leak is better than the average Rune Snag. Accumulated Knowledge has no direct comparison, but I'd estimate the average Accumulated Knowledge to be approximately equal to Anticipate, and Anticipate sees very little play.
I ahree that it wouldn't see play. The first one is a worse Think Twice and while the second one is very good, it isn't game-breakingly good. It only becomes amazing when you cast the third one, and that will almost never happen.
Lone Rider seems like it could really help out soul sisters. It's a good two drop and it enables very aggressive starts.
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Modern: G Stompy G UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR UWB Spirits UWB UWB Brain Control UWB WUB Esper Reveillark WUB EDH: WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
Take Inventory is just what modern controll decks needs. Yes it is a sorcery, but that will have to be OK. It is much better topdeck then ancestral vision will ever be. It works very well with a deck that runs cheap removal. Then you can trade remoal vs treats early, and lategame carddraw will put you ahead in the game.
Grixis eats its graveyeard so probably blue moon or jeskai control. The jeskai plan also has nahiri discarding the card, so that is very good.
12 Lightning bolt/path/lightning helix + 4 snapcaster + 4 nahiri + 4 take inventory + 1 emrakul + some lands and maybe ancestral vision / serum vision does not leave a lot of room for controling elements vs combo decks. However I really think this will be good.
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
Really excited for Gnarlwood Dryad, a one mana 3/3 Wild Insectile Nacatl Aberration with Deathtouch attacking on turn 2? Damn!!!
It even has "evasion" because it cannot be blocked by goyfs or big dudes profitably, it can only be chumped. It's the Delver we need and the delver we deserve, since the insect is not so good without Brainstorm and Ponder. Definitely has enormous potential.. to be honest Nimble Mongoose has always been my Modern wet dream, but after thinking and seeing that Modern is much more combat oriented, I don't think the old Goose would even be that good. This may be better here!!
As for Unsubstantiate, I'm genuinely curious. Froma design perfective I'd say it's one of the most brilliant tempo-oriented cards in the last 5 years, because it does SO much for that kind of deck. It doesn't mess around, it is a pure, sharply focused card for one purpose and one purpose only, let the efficient dudes in those tempo decks do their job and kill the dude before the card disadvatage even matters, either by gaining time (pure tempo), countering old nemesis for tempo like Abrupt Decay or Supreme Verdict, or bouncing that annoying blocker EOT to get in those last points of damage.
Make no mistake, this card is terrible for typical Control or even Midrange, but for classical Delver decks? A dream come true, IMO. I really don't know if it will be good or not, it may even be unplayable, as has not been a card like this before, but it will surely be interesting.
Docent of Perfection is sadly quite unplayable at 5 mana, but the idea and lore is awesome. At that cost I would much rather have surefire bombs like Keranos or Dark Dwellers
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Tree of Perdition has that combo with Triskaidekaphobia that makes people lose at 13 life. And I'm sure standard can see play with that for a bit. Hope it works out. I might just buy some Trisk and see if it spikes up a bit. Easy 2 card combo, too bad it both comes out on turn 4.
Don't see it working out in Modern though. Too slow for a combo.
In my personal experience Accumulated Knowledge is stronger than Think Twice because of the card velocity. But if you are talking about those slow control decks that play Think Twice it probably wouldn't see play in those either.
Someone on reddit mentioned that Pauper decks prefer Think Twice to Accumulated Knowledge. I checked on mtgtop8 and it was true: 45 decks with TT vs 24 decks with AK.
Of course there are differences between Pauper and Modern - the Pauper decks playing TT/AK are Dimir, which is a bad color combination in Modern. However, there are other factors in Modern to consider. For example the UWR decks play Nahiri, so they want Serum Visions as a cheap way to dig for her. Ancestral Vision also exists and is a contender for the "draw spell that takes up 4 slots".
Storm really wants to be able to play electromancer and combo on the same turn. The curious humonculous cost is right at two, and if it gets to flip you could potentially just kill them with the prowess side. Also it likely won't flip on turn three without good thought scours or a lot of gitaxian probes. I could be wrong, but I don't see storm running more than two of these generally.
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UBR ANT UBR TES UBR TNT GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
Storm really wants to be able to play electromancer and combo on the same turn. The curious humonculous cost is right at two, and if it gets to flip you could potentially just kill them with the prowess side. Also it likely won't flip on turn three without good thought scours or a lot of gitaxian probes. I could be wrong, but I don't see storm running more than two of these generally.
Yeah the Curious Homunculus/Curious Homunculus isn't really want storm wants because it needs the effect asap. That said it is probably the next best option they have so I can see it cropping up if they want another effect like that.
I was looking at it in the same way as Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. They both cost 1U. They both die to pretty much everything. They both have to survive a turn until they can start doing stuff. They are both pretty much guaranteed flips after one turn. When the Homunculus flips it becomes out of Bolt range just like JVP. The Prowess makes it able to fight with even the biggest Tarmogofys that you regularly see.
I can see it having some payoff in jank combo decks without Red, and maybe even in decks like UR Delver that just want another good 2 drop, although between Snapcaster Mage and Young Pyromancer that slot may already be too full.
I can see the tree maybe in modern . . . it's a turn 5 win, with minimum investments. . .
So . . .
22 Lands
4 Tree
4 Frogify effects
8 Draw
8 Discard
10 Creature Kill (6 of which must be burn)
4 Snap Caster
That work?
Turn 1 - Land + Draw/Discard
Turn 2 - Land + Draw/Discard/Creature Kill
Turn 3 - Land + Draw/Discard/Creature Kill
Turn 4 - Land + Tree (Without draw around 73% chance?)
Turn 5 - Frogify + Burn (tap tree, in response frogify - tree's ability sees toughness at 1, exchange life, burn player to death) (Without draw around 80% chance to have frogify and burn in hand at this point so win at this turn should be around 58%)(A single draw spell before turn 4 raises the chances of the win to around 69%)
The new Delver is interesting. On the one hand, it seems like a pretty easy flip in the kind of Delver/Prowess decks which would run it. 4 Probe, 4 Scour, and 4 Visions are a pretty consistent core, and you can add some combination of stuff like Gut Shot, Mutagenic Growth, Bolt, or even Faithless Looting to get a pretty decent flip chance. On the other hand, remember the card has an intervening "if" clause: it only triggers IF the condition is met. This means you can't put the trigger on the stack on T3 and then cast some instants to flip the Homunculus. You need the cards in the graveyard to start. That's definitely a big knock against its playability.
If you can flip this on T3, the card is very nice. It's naturally Bolt-proof and although it doesn't have evasion, there's basically no ground creature in top-tier Modern which can safely block or be blocked by it. It's a quick clock in tandem with any spells, especially pump and burn, and plays well alongside tempo cards. If you can't flip this on T3, the card becomes much worse. Delver's advantage is that you can play him on T1 and can flip him on T2 to start the clock right away. The difference between a T1 play/T2 flip and a T2 play/T3 flip is huge in Modern.
Part of this is a probability question. Whats the chance Delver flips on T2? What's the chance Delver flips on T3? If that percentage compares favorably to Homunculus' flip chance, maybe the new flip card is better than we think. Of course, we'd have to also consider the difference between 1 and 2 mana which would necessarily give an edge to Delver, but that's not necessarily game over for Homunculus. I'll probably test him in some kind of URx Prowess shell to see how reliably he flips and then go from there. Those numbers would also help us figure out if Storm wants the card as well.
Storm doesn't want Curious Homunculus. You have to jump through hoops just to get it to turn into Goblin Electromancer. Why would you play it over Mancer? "Because you need more than 4 Mancers in your deck" - well, we do: Pyromancer Ascension.
Additionally, Homunculus flips during your upkeep and doesn't have haste, so it's a full turn before you get any benefit out of it. Too slow.
Tree of Perdition is cute, but about as playable as its predecessor, Tree of Redemption. You're not swapping any life totals until turn 5, unless you play ramp. You need a way to shrink Tree and a burn/life loss spell to finish your opponent off. That's a three-card combo at minimum.
Part of this is a probability question. Whats the chance Delver flips on T2? What's the chance Delver flips on T3?
I can help you out here:
Roughly 40% on turn 2, turn three it is roughly 60%. Depends on your hand and how many Instant/Sorcs you are playing (done the Math with 27 spells).
That new "Delver" will "never" flip on turn 3, since you need way to much luck. Why? Cause you need either:
- 2 Probes (or Phyrexian Spells, which need a target) into another spell on turn 1-2 or
- 1 Thought Scour + (to be realistic) 1 Probe
Both scenarios are pretty rare. Of course, something like Disrupting Shoal (or Shoals in general) and Discard from the opponent helps here, but than again, either you need a target or the opp needs to take an Instant/Sorc.
Judgement: In a classic Delver deck he is (sadly) to bad. He might be playable in Jeskai Prowess, since they can play a rather slow-ish tempo game (also depends on the version).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Tree of Perdition is cute, but about as playable as its predecessor, Tree of Redemption. You're not swapping any life totals until turn 5, unless you play ramp. You need a way to shrink Tree and a burn/life loss spell to finish your opponent off. That's a three-card combo at minimum.
Why have a bad 2 card combo when you can have a somewhat decent (and cheaper) 3 card combo where 1 of those pieces is burn and another can function as removal/fog?
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Another flavor-win with this cycle is that they also increase in rarity as it goes. Delver is common, the middle was uncommon, and this is rare.
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seems really good against decks that run Thrun
My Spike says no but my Timmy says yes, YES!
The main way I think AK would see play is if the control decks started playing it, blue decks that wanted the card advantage to fight control would board it in. The new one doesnt care about your opponents graveyard though so this case doesn't exist with it.
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
Nahiri has already helped make the color combination interesting, but now there's also this.
I think the card is a pocket card. The Spike will compare it to existing decks and look for fits. The Johnny tries to build a home for it. Johnnies misfire more often than not, but at 2 cmc it's got the feel of a card that might be really worth building around.
That said, it's probably still not playable.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
From what the article said it's not a cycle, just the two of them (I think). The red one can be compared to Fiery Impulse since it only hits creatures. The blue one could see some play in jank combo decks, but there are going to be a lot of options fighting for those spots.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
If you play black there is Night's Whisper as your 2-mana draw spell.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I ahree that it wouldn't see play. The first one is a worse Think Twice and while the second one is very good, it isn't game-breakingly good. It only becomes amazing when you cast the third one, and that will almost never happen.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
G Stompy G
UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR
UWB Spirits UWB
UWB Brain Control UWBWUB Esper Reveillark WUB
EDH:
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW
WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
Grixis eats its graveyeard so probably blue moon or jeskai control. The jeskai plan also has nahiri discarding the card, so that is very good.
12 Lightning bolt/path/lightning helix + 4 snapcaster + 4 nahiri + 4 take inventory + 1 emrakul + some lands and maybe ancestral vision / serum vision does not leave a lot of room for controling elements vs combo decks. However I really think this will be good.
It even has "evasion" because it cannot be blocked by goyfs or big dudes profitably, it can only be chumped. It's the Delver we need and the delver we deserve, since the insect is not so good without Brainstorm and Ponder. Definitely has enormous potential.. to be honest Nimble Mongoose has always been my Modern wet dream, but after thinking and seeing that Modern is much more combat oriented, I don't think the old Goose would even be that good. This may be better here!!
As for Unsubstantiate, I'm genuinely curious. Froma design perfective I'd say it's one of the most brilliant tempo-oriented cards in the last 5 years, because it does SO much for that kind of deck. It doesn't mess around, it is a pure, sharply focused card for one purpose and one purpose only, let the efficient dudes in those tempo decks do their job and kill the dude before the card disadvatage even matters, either by gaining time (pure tempo), countering old nemesis for tempo like Abrupt Decay or Supreme Verdict, or bouncing that annoying blocker EOT to get in those last points of damage.
Make no mistake, this card is terrible for typical Control or even Midrange, but for classical Delver decks? A dream come true, IMO. I really don't know if it will be good or not, it may even be unplayable, as has not been a card like this before, but it will surely be interesting.
Docent of Perfection is sadly quite unplayable at 5 mana, but the idea and lore is awesome. At that cost I would much rather have surefire bombs like Keranos or Dark Dwellers
Overall very exciting set, again
Very good with lightning helix
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Ulvenwald Observer is ok, but just too costly.
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
Tree of Perdition has that combo with Triskaidekaphobia that makes people lose at 13 life. And I'm sure standard can see play with that for a bit. Hope it works out. I might just buy some Trisk and see if it spikes up a bit. Easy 2 card combo, too bad it both comes out on turn 4.
Don't see it working out in Modern though. Too slow for a combo.
Of course there are differences between Pauper and Modern - the Pauper decks playing TT/AK are Dimir, which is a bad color combination in Modern. However, there are other factors in Modern to consider. For example the UWR decks play Nahiri, so they want Serum Visions as a cheap way to dig for her. Ancestral Vision also exists and is a contender for the "draw spell that takes up 4 slots".
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I like that from the set so far the most interesting cards have all been uncommon
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
I was looking at it in the same way as Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. They both cost 1U. They both die to pretty much everything. They both have to survive a turn until they can start doing stuff. They are both pretty much guaranteed flips after one turn. When the Homunculus flips it becomes out of Bolt range just like JVP. The Prowess makes it able to fight with even the biggest Tarmogofys that you regularly see.
I can see it having some payoff in jank combo decks without Red, and maybe even in decks like UR Delver that just want another good 2 drop, although between Snapcaster Mage and Young Pyromancer that slot may already be too full.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
So . . .
22 Lands
4 Tree
4 Frogify effects
8 Draw
8 Discard
10 Creature Kill (6 of which must be burn)
4 Snap Caster
That work?
Turn 1 - Land + Draw/Discard
Turn 2 - Land + Draw/Discard/Creature Kill
Turn 3 - Land + Draw/Discard/Creature Kill
Turn 4 - Land + Tree (Without draw around 73% chance?)
Turn 5 - Frogify + Burn (tap tree, in response frogify - tree's ability sees toughness at 1, exchange life, burn player to death) (Without draw around 80% chance to have frogify and burn in hand at this point so win at this turn should be around 58%)(A single draw spell before turn 4 raises the chances of the win to around 69%)
If you can flip this on T3, the card is very nice. It's naturally Bolt-proof and although it doesn't have evasion, there's basically no ground creature in top-tier Modern which can safely block or be blocked by it. It's a quick clock in tandem with any spells, especially pump and burn, and plays well alongside tempo cards. If you can't flip this on T3, the card becomes much worse. Delver's advantage is that you can play him on T1 and can flip him on T2 to start the clock right away. The difference between a T1 play/T2 flip and a T2 play/T3 flip is huge in Modern.
Part of this is a probability question. Whats the chance Delver flips on T2? What's the chance Delver flips on T3? If that percentage compares favorably to Homunculus' flip chance, maybe the new flip card is better than we think. Of course, we'd have to also consider the difference between 1 and 2 mana which would necessarily give an edge to Delver, but that's not necessarily game over for Homunculus. I'll probably test him in some kind of URx Prowess shell to see how reliably he flips and then go from there. Those numbers would also help us figure out if Storm wants the card as well.
Additionally, Homunculus flips during your upkeep and doesn't have haste, so it's a full turn before you get any benefit out of it. Too slow.
Tree of Perdition is cute, but about as playable as its predecessor, Tree of Redemption. You're not swapping any life totals until turn 5, unless you play ramp. You need a way to shrink Tree and a burn/life loss spell to finish your opponent off. That's a three-card combo at minimum.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I can help you out here:
Roughly 40% on turn 2, turn three it is roughly 60%. Depends on your hand and how many Instant/Sorcs you are playing (done the Math with 27 spells).
That new "Delver" will "never" flip on turn 3, since you need way to much luck. Why? Cause you need either:
- 2 Probes (or Phyrexian Spells, which need a target) into another spell on turn 1-2 or
- 1 Thought Scour + (to be realistic) 1 Probe
Both scenarios are pretty rare. Of course, something like Disrupting Shoal (or Shoals in general) and Discard from the opponent helps here, but than again, either you need a target or the opp needs to take an Instant/Sorc.
Judgement: In a classic Delver deck he is (sadly) to bad. He might be playable in Jeskai Prowess, since they can play a rather slow-ish tempo game (also depends on the version).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Triskaidekaphobia says hi
This makes it basically a two card combo, but than again, you can interact pretty easy with it (keep a fetchland open or just Bolt yourself).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)