Abbot of keral Keep is a card that was super hyped when it came out and it even put up some good results when it first came out. With the rise of control is it time to revisit him?
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I don`t understand what you mean, I haven`t really seen a rise in control, and he`s not particularly good in nor against control.
The hype died because it was just that - hype. The card looks vastly better than it is, it fooled me for sure. Of course you`re going to see results when everyone tries to jam it in various top decks. That doesn`t mean that the card is great. It`s just okay.
The cards best use is in a very aggressive deck that actually plays what you get in allmost any case.
The Grixis Delve decks worked perfectly with it.
However, right now you want to build that deck vastly slower, Grixis is much more a Jund like deck with as many 2for1 trades as possible.
In that case Jace, Vryn's Prodigy does a better job grinding your opponent out. Playing Kolaghan's Command and getting your stuff back helps more than killing your opponent quickly.
Modern at the time was more about speed, now its just a grind who can keep more cards on the table or get some form of combo resolved for infinited life. All the CoCo decks are quite unfriendly for aggressive decks, as they play a lot of lifegain and resilent creatures anyway (and you really do not want to play against Kitchen Finks backed by Restoration Angel and Wall of Roots).
The existence of Splinter Twin made these infinited life decks bad, but as that is gone, you just want to grind your opponent to death.
So Abbot of keral Keep got overall replaced by Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in the Grixis like decks, and all the other aggressive decks play allmost all the 1-drops and just burn spells after that (Zoo and such).
He doesn't have the stats for a burn/zoo deck and most other decks that used him can use Painful Truths instead, which typically gets the job done better than him. Like Bill said he's still playable in the right meta and shell, but he's not a staple.
The hype died because it was just that - hype. The card looks vastly better than it is, it fooled me for sure. Of course you`re going to see results when everyone tries to jam it in various top decks. That doesn`t mean that the card is great. It`s just okay.
This is very true, and I feel too many people equate "card X was in a winning deck" with "card X is good". It could mean that card X is not actually good, but the rest of the deck is so strong that it can carry card X despite its badness.
PV wrote a small section on Abbot after Chapin played that Temur Prowess deck. I agree on Abbot being at its best in aggressive decks, but clearly the Temur deck has some issues since it isn't putting (and, in fact, hasn't put) up strong results. Abbot makes timing your spells awkward - you need to hit something cheap enough to cast with your remaining lands, and you need to have the right colors for it, and you must cast the spell on your turn.
I feel that people thought it was really exciting as a new card and thought it could have been the red Bob but quickly realized it was riskier because you only got the card for the turn then it was exiled so you had to sort of get lucky for it
I don`t understand what you mean, I haven`t really seen a rise in control, and he`s not particularly good in nor against control.
The hype died because it was just that - hype. The card looks vastly better than it is, it fooled me for sure. Of course you`re going to see results when everyone tries to jam it in various top decks. That doesn`t mean that the card is great. It`s just okay.
I disagree with this because Patrick Chapin got top 8 at a huge SCG tournament with him in a prowess build. So dismissing it out rite is pretty dumb when it has put up results.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
I don`t understand what you mean, I haven`t really seen a rise in control, and he`s not particularly good in nor against control.
The hype died because it was just that - hype. The card looks vastly better than it is, it fooled me for sure. Of course you`re going to see results when everyone tries to jam it in various top decks. That doesn`t mean that the card is great. It`s just okay.
I disagree with this because Patrick Chapin got top 8 at a huge SCG tournament with him in a prowess build. So dismissing it out rite is pretty dumb when it has put up results.
He's one of the best players on the planet, he plays a little dirty to get edges everywhere he can, it was a rogue deck which catches people off guard, and it was an SCG event which is basically a large FNM in terms of quality of opponents. I wouldn't read too much into it.
The Abbot is a good card, but is compeating with great cards. Playing Abbot requires a few deck building constraints not usually seen. One, yoy really want to treat the Abbot as a 4 cmc or more card. Rarely do you want to just run him out turn 2, as you will be limiting the value he can give you. Two, you really have to put a limit on the cmc of your deck. Its kind of like Bob, but instead of paying life you just might miss out on the extra card, which is worse in many cases. Three is that you really have to sandbag lands. You want to cast him in your first main phase, before your land drop, to ensure you maximize his potential. This goes against a lot of what we are taught.
I still think the Abbot can shine in an UR Delver build that uses Delver, Abbot, and Snapcaster/Jace, Vryn's Podigy as its only creatures.
I think the biggest point against Abbot is that I can't imagine a deck where Young Pyromancer isn't just all-around better, and once you run those plus Snapcaster and probably Delver you're pretty much full on creatures.
I think the biggest point against Abbot is that I can't imagine a deck where Young Pyromancer isn't just all-around better, and once you run those plus Snapcaster and probably Delver you're pretty much full on creatures.
A deck that wants to play a higher mass of enchantments or artifacts (e.g. oath of nissa, rancor, seal of fire, mishra's bauble) is the only thing that occurs to me.
Primarily, if you want to play Tarmogoyf abbot is likely a lot better.
I think the biggest point against Abbot is that I can't imagine a deck where Young Pyromancer isn't just all-around better, and once you run those plus Snapcaster and probably Delver you're pretty much full on creatures.
Young pyromancer doesn't draw you a card on etb
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
I think the biggest point against Abbot is that I can't imagine a deck where Young Pyromancer isn't just all-around better, and once you run those plus Snapcaster and probably Delver you're pretty much full on creatures.
Young pyromancer doesn't draw you a card on etb
Neither does Abbot. If you can't play the card exiled, it's just exiled. It can't be Snapped back, it doesn't go into your hand to play later, and your opponent sees what it is. So you have to build your deck around that idea and realize that a some amount of times, you just remove an otherwise good and playable card from your deck for no benefit. Both cards get a benefit from casting spells, but YP has better overall payoff for those spells.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
The hype died because it was just that - hype. The card looks vastly better than it is, it fooled me for sure. Of course you`re going to see results when everyone tries to jam it in various top decks. That doesn`t mean that the card is great. It`s just okay.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
The Grixis Delve decks worked perfectly with it.
However, right now you want to build that deck vastly slower, Grixis is much more a Jund like deck with as many 2for1 trades as possible.
In that case Jace, Vryn's Prodigy does a better job grinding your opponent out. Playing Kolaghan's Command and getting your stuff back helps more than killing your opponent quickly.
Modern at the time was more about speed, now its just a grind who can keep more cards on the table or get some form of combo resolved for infinited life. All the CoCo decks are quite unfriendly for aggressive decks, as they play a lot of lifegain and resilent creatures anyway (and you really do not want to play against Kitchen Finks backed by Restoration Angel and Wall of Roots).
The existence of Splinter Twin made these infinited life decks bad, but as that is gone, you just want to grind your opponent to death.
So Abbot of keral Keep got overall replaced by Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in the Grixis like decks, and all the other aggressive decks play allmost all the 1-drops and just burn spells after that (Zoo and such).
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I mean anti control since he is in fast decks.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
PV wrote a small section on Abbot after Chapin played that Temur Prowess deck. I agree on Abbot being at its best in aggressive decks, but clearly the Temur deck has some issues since it isn't putting (and, in fact, hasn't put) up strong results. Abbot makes timing your spells awkward - you need to hit something cheap enough to cast with your remaining lands, and you need to have the right colors for it, and you must cast the spell on your turn.
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Big Johnny.
I disagree with this because Patrick Chapin got top 8 at a huge SCG tournament with him in a prowess build. So dismissing it out rite is pretty dumb when it has put up results.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I still think the Abbot can shine in an UR Delver build that uses Delver, Abbot, and Snapcaster/Jace, Vryn's Podigy as its only creatures.
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A deck that wants to play a higher mass of enchantments or artifacts (e.g. oath of nissa, rancor, seal of fire, mishra's bauble) is the only thing that occurs to me.
Primarily, if you want to play Tarmogoyf abbot is likely a lot better.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Young pyromancer doesn't draw you a card on etb
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Neither does Abbot. If you can't play the card exiled, it's just exiled. It can't be Snapped back, it doesn't go into your hand to play later, and your opponent sees what it is. So you have to build your deck around that idea and realize that a some amount of times, you just remove an otherwise good and playable card from your deck for no benefit. Both cards get a benefit from casting spells, but YP has better overall payoff for those spells.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
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