I'm not entirely sure this thread is okay, partly because it overlaps multiple threads where you are only allowed to post things related to that thread in that thread.
There is some disagreement on the state of Control decks in Modern, for the purpose of this thread though, it is largely meant for those who think there _is_ a problem with control, rather than arguments about if control is in a good state in Modern or not. What is up for discussion is the level, type, and quality of the fixes proposed. You can put up your own propositions, and criticism of other's propositions (such as if you think they'd be overpowered).
To start things off, I'll be making an imaginary deck, made up partly of new cards, and partly of reprinted cards, and partly of already modern legal cards. This deck of course isn't optimized or tested, but represents some of the things I think Modern control needs.
* Reprinted to add to Modern card pool
** New design below
Spell SmotherUU Instant
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 3 or less.
((For this one, I think Counterspell is probably fine for Modern, but this could perhaps sorta pull things off in Modern in it's place and be easier to get through Standard))
Terrain SimplificationUW Sorcery
Exile target non-basic land. Its controller may search his or her library for a basic land card, put that card onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle his or her library.
Draw a card.
Rapid Divination1UU Instant
Draw two cards.
Fast Concentration1UUU Instant
Draw three cards.
Simple NatureUG Instant
Destroy target non-basic land. Its controller may search his or her library for a basic land card, put that card onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle his or her library.
Draw a card.
Note that the above new spells aren't exact, they may have different casting costs, weird drawbacks, and the like designed to make them easier to get through Standard or be more balanced, but I tried to keep them relatively simple here to make their role clear. Any drawbacks added would probably have to be ones designed to not hurt a control deck.
---
Basically the things I think control is lacking in Modern is:
* Good card draw outside of Esper (or at least UW for the higher end stuff, since UW at least has Sphinx's Revelation, but still no decent 3 cmc option outside of Esper) that is instant speed and nets two cards, right now the closest equivalent mid-game-ish option seems to be Think Twice
* Counterspell or the noted 'Spell Smother' to serve the role of slowing down opponents when you are on the draw early enough, without being something that becomes bad to have in your hand or draw later game like Remand or Mana Leak, which is a bad strategy for control, this is particularly neccesary when on the draw, rather going first, due to the speed of Modern and the nature of the sort of decks control is needed to fight (combo, including some of the more playable faster combo, such as the stuff that usually wins turn 4 but can occasionally in rare cirucmstances pull off a turn 3 win), admittedly, discard is a decent alternative here in decks that include black, like the ones I've shown above, but instant speed and top deck issues can be relevant, and such aren't so good in a meta where burn and fast aggro are particularly relevant, due to the nature of some of the discard we do have like TS. This is especially important in control due to being more likely to play lands that come into play tapped in order to avoid damage or because they play more man-lands.
* Undermine and Absorb or other equivalent main-deck playable 3 cmc counters, note that these aren't sufficient on their own without Counterspell or Spell Smother noted above, due to the speed of Modern, but they would be very useful for filling out a curve without trying to do something crazy like give Modern BOTH Counterspell and Spell Smother (which would IMO be like printing a re-named lightning bolt or something), current options are basically stuck in the sideboard, like Counterflux
* Innocent Blood to provide early game control relevant anti-creature power besides things like Path to Exile, both for decks that don't play white, and for avoiding Dismember life loss, or Path's drawbacks against rampy decks
* Force Spike for non-white decks that might otherwise want a Mana Tithe effect
* Opt for an instant speed cantrip that offers a bit of selection, so you can hold it up early game in case you want to use instant speed counters or removal
* Stronger sideboard options to deal with threatening nonbasic lands at 2 cmc (in case you are on the draw vs. Tron), I went with ones that replaced the removed land with a basic one to make it not true land destruction sorta, and adding card draw to make up for the fact that it can sorta 'do-nothing' and make it control relevant, I didn't want to go with auras, even though such can already do similar, because decks like Tron are already getting better at removing them, as well as having the time to do so, and particularly the issue of vulnerability to uncounterable removal like Abrupt Decay in the Modern format making it hard to do things like take out manlands in a lasting manner vs. BGx midrange
Ultimately, I don't think control has much other issues of sideboard, or any real issues with their land pool or their finishers, especially now that we have the full set of 10 manland duals and full set of fetches, and the wedge tri-lands. The decks and cards added above are more of a 'bare minimum' kinda thing for what I think control would need to get to around consistent T1 relevance. More options would be needed to expand the color options for control decks, such as shifting Jeskai away from tempo and/or midrange like elements towards a more pure control game, making Azorius or Dimir more competitive with 3 color decks, or turning Bant into a good control deck.
I think in order to have a proper discussion we need to decide what type of control we are talking about and split a few hairs. Are we talking about Tap-Out or Draw-Go? Where is the line between the two archetypes? Is there any overlap between the two? It seems like Wizards has a different view of control, preferring Tap-Out style over the Draw-Go decks of old. Control doesn't have to be Draw-Go, but what I'm getting out of your post is the lack of a Draw-Go deck is a problem. Let me know of I'm wrong but that is the vibe I am getting.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
As OP correctly observed, this thread is just a mashup of existing threadss (reprints and custom card creation) and I'm sure banlist talk is on its way. Feel free to reboot this discussion in any of those three threads.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Over-Extended/Modern Since 2010
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
There is some disagreement on the state of Control decks in Modern, for the purpose of this thread though, it is largely meant for those who think there _is_ a problem with control, rather than arguments about if control is in a good state in Modern or not. What is up for discussion is the level, type, and quality of the fixes proposed. You can put up your own propositions, and criticism of other's propositions (such as if you think they'd be overpowered).
To start things off, I'll be making an imaginary deck, made up partly of new cards, and partly of reprinted cards, and partly of already modern legal cards. This deck of course isn't optimized or tested, but represents some of the things I think Modern control needs.
WUB control:
26x lands
2x Innocent Blood *
2x Mana Tithe
2x Thoughtseize
2x Path to Exile
4x Opt *
4x Counterspell * or Spell Smother **
2x Damnation and/or Wrath of God and/or Supreme Verdict
2x Absorb * and/or Undermine *
2x Esper Charm
2x Cryptic Command
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Anguished Unmaking
2x Sphinx's Revelation
1x White Sun's Zenith
1x Batterskull
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Dismember
Sideboard:
#x Terrain Simplification **
UBG control:
26x lands
2x Innocent Blood *
2x Force Spike *
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Opt *
4x Counterspell * or Smother Spell **
2x Damnation
2x Undermine *
2x Rapid Divination **
2x Cryptic Command
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Fast Concentration **
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Batterskull
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Dismember
Sideboard:
#x Simple Nature **
* Reprinted to add to Modern card pool
** New design below
Spell Smother UU
Instant
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 3 or less.
((For this one, I think Counterspell is probably fine for Modern, but this could perhaps sorta pull things off in Modern in it's place and be easier to get through Standard))
Terrain Simplification UW
Sorcery
Exile target non-basic land. Its controller may search his or her library for a basic land card, put that card onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle his or her library.
Draw a card.
Rapid Divination 1UU
Instant
Draw two cards.
Fast Concentration 1UUU
Instant
Draw three cards.
Simple Nature UG
Instant
Destroy target non-basic land. Its controller may search his or her library for a basic land card, put that card onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle his or her library.
Draw a card.
Note that the above new spells aren't exact, they may have different casting costs, weird drawbacks, and the like designed to make them easier to get through Standard or be more balanced, but I tried to keep them relatively simple here to make their role clear. Any drawbacks added would probably have to be ones designed to not hurt a control deck.
---
Basically the things I think control is lacking in Modern is:
* Good card draw outside of Esper (or at least UW for the higher end stuff, since UW at least has Sphinx's Revelation, but still no decent 3 cmc option outside of Esper) that is instant speed and nets two cards, right now the closest equivalent mid-game-ish option seems to be Think Twice
* Counterspell or the noted 'Spell Smother' to serve the role of slowing down opponents when you are on the draw early enough, without being something that becomes bad to have in your hand or draw later game like Remand or Mana Leak, which is a bad strategy for control, this is particularly neccesary when on the draw, rather going first, due to the speed of Modern and the nature of the sort of decks control is needed to fight (combo, including some of the more playable faster combo, such as the stuff that usually wins turn 4 but can occasionally in rare cirucmstances pull off a turn 3 win), admittedly, discard is a decent alternative here in decks that include black, like the ones I've shown above, but instant speed and top deck issues can be relevant, and such aren't so good in a meta where burn and fast aggro are particularly relevant, due to the nature of some of the discard we do have like TS. This is especially important in control due to being more likely to play lands that come into play tapped in order to avoid damage or because they play more man-lands.
* Undermine and Absorb or other equivalent main-deck playable 3 cmc counters, note that these aren't sufficient on their own without Counterspell or Spell Smother noted above, due to the speed of Modern, but they would be very useful for filling out a curve without trying to do something crazy like give Modern BOTH Counterspell and Spell Smother (which would IMO be like printing a re-named lightning bolt or something), current options are basically stuck in the sideboard, like Counterflux
* Innocent Blood to provide early game control relevant anti-creature power besides things like Path to Exile, both for decks that don't play white, and for avoiding Dismember life loss, or Path's drawbacks against rampy decks
* Force Spike for non-white decks that might otherwise want a Mana Tithe effect
* Opt for an instant speed cantrip that offers a bit of selection, so you can hold it up early game in case you want to use instant speed counters or removal
* Stronger sideboard options to deal with threatening nonbasic lands at 2 cmc (in case you are on the draw vs. Tron), I went with ones that replaced the removed land with a basic one to make it not true land destruction sorta, and adding card draw to make up for the fact that it can sorta 'do-nothing' and make it control relevant, I didn't want to go with auras, even though such can already do similar, because decks like Tron are already getting better at removing them, as well as having the time to do so, and particularly the issue of vulnerability to uncounterable removal like Abrupt Decay in the Modern format making it hard to do things like take out manlands in a lasting manner vs. BGx midrange
Ultimately, I don't think control has much other issues of sideboard, or any real issues with their land pool or their finishers, especially now that we have the full set of 10 manland duals and full set of fetches, and the wedge tri-lands. The decks and cards added above are more of a 'bare minimum' kinda thing for what I think control would need to get to around consistent T1 relevance. More options would be needed to expand the color options for control decks, such as shifting Jeskai away from tempo and/or midrange like elements towards a more pure control game, making Azorius or Dimir more competitive with 3 color decks, or turning Bant into a good control deck.
As OP correctly observed, this thread is just a mashup of existing threadss (reprints and custom card creation) and I'm sure banlist talk is on its way. Feel free to reboot this discussion in any of those three threads.