Are you just going to disagree with everybody and jam it anyway? If so, why make a thread?
No, but I haven't really heard a convincing reason to not try it yet. I think that in general people under rate the power of conditional 3 mana 2 for 1's.
Are you just going to disagree with everybody and jam it anyway? If so, why make a thread?
No, but I haven't really heard a convincing reason to not try it yet. I think that in general people under rate the power of conditional 3 mana 2 for 1's.
And you never will find or hear a convincing reason not to try it. This game's all about trying new things. Go for it man. I'd be interested to hear your results in Modern with the card.
But there are plenty of reasons out there that will prevent ME from trying it. I just don't have the time to dedicate to testing things unless they clear a certain (undefined) hurdle and this card doesn't cut it for me.
Are you just going to disagree with everybody and jam it anyway? If so, why make a thread?
No, but I haven't really heard a convincing reason to not try it yet. I think that in general people under rate the power of conditional 3 mana 2 for 1's.
What viable, conditional three-mana two-for-ones can you name in Modern? I can name a number of unconditional creatures that fit those crtieria (Finks, Clique, Witness, etc.), but the conditional ones are few and far between. Knight of the Reliquary doesn't even cut it at scale and she's much more monstrous than Tracker. Mentor doesn't cut it at all.
My advice would be to just try the card. Number crunching doesn't always yield the correct assessment with play-ability. Remember when people were saying that Origins Jace was garbage? Just play the card and report back to the thread.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Of the most-played creatures in Modern, the three- and four-drops have a very high bar for playability. Three-drops need to either pass the Bolt/Decay test OR "cast a spell" when they enter the battlefield (i.e. have an immediate impact). Four-drops must BOTH pass the Bolt/Decay test AND cast a spell when they enter the battlefield.
Whether played as a virtual four-drop or a hard three-drop, Tracker bombs on both measures. It's always dying to Bolt and Decay, it doesn't have an immediate impact on turn three, and it only has a conditional impact on turn four if you have the fetchland to pair with it (while still dying).
Cards can see play in Modern while dying to Bolt. Unfortunately for Tracker, she misses all the other benchmarks too.
Yep, discussions like these are the reason I wrote that article! Just read through it and apply the principles outlined to Tireless Tracker, and you'll see why it's Modern unplayable. Or sleeve it up yourself and find out the hard way
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
What viable, conditional three-mana two-for-ones can you name in Modern? I can name a number of unconditional creatures that fit those crtieria (Finks, Clique, Witness, etc.), but the conditional ones are few and far between. Knight of the Reliquary doesn't even cut it at scale and she's much more monstrous than Tracker. Mentor doesn't cut it at all.
We could start with Courser of Kruphix which your earlier article pointed out does see some play, and does pass the various tests for the format.
My advice would be to just try the card. Number crunching doesn't always yield the correct assessment with play-ability. Remember when people were saying that Origins Jace was garbage? Just play the card and report back to the thread.
This is my normal approach, however since it's summer I'm traveling for the next few weeks as part of my break. As a result I have limited to no ability to play unless I find some random card shop playing Modern, but even in that case I didn't bring a deck with me where the card would be appropriate.
What viable, conditional three-mana two-for-ones can you name in Modern? I can name a number of unconditional creatures that fit those crtieria (Finks, Clique, Witness, etc.), but the conditional ones are few and far between. Knight of the Reliquary doesn't even cut it at scale and she's much more monstrous than Tracker. Mentor doesn't cut it at all.
We could start with Courser of Kruphix which your earlier article pointed out does see some play, and does pass the various tests for the format.
The article stresses that Courser has 4 toughness (and still isn't heavily played in Modern), unlike Tracker. I think ktken was referring specifically to other creatures that fail the Bolt test (although KotR does pass it eventually, and for this reason, it also sees fringe Modern play - still not enough to crack the top 50 though, just like Courser).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
We could start with Courser of Kruphix which your earlier article pointed out does see some play, and does pass the various tests for the format.
Courser unconditionally passes the Bolt test and is still pretty fringe. I don't think there are any in the Tracker category (don't pass Bolt test) which meet those standards. At absolute best, it would be even more fringe than the already borderline Courser.
Courser unconditionally passes the Bolt test and is still pretty fringe. I don't think there are any in the Tracker category (don't pass Bolt test) which meet those standards. At absolute best, it would be even more fringe than the already borderline Courser.
I didn't state that it wouldn't be fringe. There's lots of cards that only see play in 1-2 decks, but they're good in those decks.
A point in it's favor is that the meta has slowed down a little bit. I agree that you probably don't want it if games are over on turn 4 or even 5, but even most 4 drops you don't want if the games end that quickly.
Note that the interaction with Path is actually pretty nice, it basically turns off PTE from the opponent unless they kill it first.
Of the most-played creatures in Modern, the three- and four-drops have a very high bar for playability. Three-drops need to either pass the Bolt/Decay test OR "cast a spell" when they enter the battlefield (i.e. have an immediate impact). Four-drops must BOTH pass the Bolt/Decay test AND cast a spell when they enter the battlefield.
Whether played as a virtual four-drop or a hard three-drop, Tracker bombs on both measures. It's always dying to Bolt and Decay, it doesn't have an immediate impact on turn three, and it only has a conditional impact on turn four if you have the fetchland to pair with it (while still dying).
Cards can see play in Modern while dying to Bolt. Unfortunately for Tracker, she misses all the other benchmarks too.
Yep, discussions like these are the reason I wrote that article! Just read through it and apply the principles outlined to Tireless Tracker, and you'll see why it's Modern unplayable. Or sleeve it up yourself and find out the hard way
Doesn't olivia fail the bolt test and not cast a spell when she enters the battle field. Does she still see some play?
Doesn't olivia fail the bolt test and not cast a spell when she enters the battle field. Does she still see some play?
She does see play as a one-of in certain metagames and matchups. These days, she's mostly chilling in the Jund sideboard if they use her at all. Tracker, however, is no Olivia Voldaren and doesn't take over the game at nearly the same rate as she does.
As far as how many times goes. If you trigger it once and then it dies you traded a 3 drop for an extra card and a removal spell out of your opponent. That's not a bad trade. If you get two clues which really isn't hard it's much better. Even if your opponent isn't giving you time to crack the clues it's still a 3 power body so it trades with the creatures a faster deck is using.
What I mean by "how many times you have to trigger it" is, suppose the card said "when this creature ETBs, investigate X times" instead of "whenever a land ETBs under your control, investigate". How big does X have to be for you to want to play it?
What I mean by "how many times you have to trigger it" is, suppose the card said "when this creature ETBs, investigate X times" instead of "whenever a land ETBs under your control, investigate". How big does X have to be for you to want to play it?
I was thinking about this card in Knightfall with Collected Company. Imagine hitting both Tracker and KotR?
KotR is neat, but what is really needed is something synergistic that's not a 3 on the curve. I think KotR can accomplish much the same just using Horizon Canopy though.
It would only be playable in creature heavy midrange decks or aggro decks with a high curve. You need some early drops to soak up the removal before this guy becomes effective. I could see this card being played in something like stompy maybe, for when they run out of gas. It would actually be an awesome card for green devotion if the mana cost was more restrictive with GG1 or GGG.
My suspicion is that he made a metagame call like we see at other small Worlds-style events and it didn't pay off. This happens and isn't necessarily a knock at the player or the underlying strengths of what they are trying to do: see Chapin's awful Esper Delve performance last year before better delve decks took center stage. That is to say, Temur Traverse may be good, but Black might have built it wrong or in a targeted, niche way. The first thing I would change would be the tracker because other successful Temur lists have not been using them.
As you saw in the Nahiri Jeskai matchup, tracker dying to bolt when he's central to your gameplan is miserable. If his body were 2/4 he'd have probably run away with one of those games, but dying to lightning bolt allowed GerryT to path the goyf and bolt the tracker, getting full value out of both removal spells.
That matchup was pretty much a case study for why tracker's body is insufficient for modern.
My suspicion is that he made a metagame call like we see at other small Worlds-style events and it didn't pay off. This happens and isn't necessarily a knock at the player or the underlying strengths of what they are trying to do: see Chapin's awful Esper Delve performance last year before better delve decks took center stage. That is to say, Temur Traverse may be good, but Black might have built it wrong or in a targeted, niche way. The first thing I would change would be the tracker because other successful Temur lists have not been using them.
I tried Tireless Tracker as a 1-of in a similar 19-land Traverse the Ulvenwald RUG Midrange deck (took Danteh(?)'s list and changed the silver bullet creatures and some of the enabler ratios around). I took Tireless Tracker out pretty fast because getting the 4th land is pretty hard in that deck, even in Danteh's 13(!)-cantrip list. (Admittedly, the 1-of Jori En, Ruin Diver I put in the Danteh list performed better, so it stayed...)
I'm trying Sam Black's list out on Cockatrice against myself right now, and I was really tempted to pull a Tireless Tracker for a bullet. Part of me's thinking that it has to be a 4-of in the Sam Black list, though, because the 1st one is likely to die for no value or get delayed big-time, and 4 of them maximize the chance of the double-Tracker-plus-Pia and Kiran Nalaar endgame (which is pretty good when it gets going).
My suspicion is that he made a metagame call like we see at other small Worlds-style events and it didn't pay off. This happens and isn't necessarily a knock at the player or the underlying strengths of what they are trying to do: see Chapin's awful Esper Delve performance last year before better delve decks took center stage. That is to say, Temur Traverse may be good, but Black might have built it wrong or in a targeted, niche way. The first thing I would change would be the tracker because other successful Temur lists have not been using them.
I tried Tireless Tracker as a 1-of in a similar 19-land Traverse the Ulvenwald RUG Midrange deck (took Danteh(?)'s list and changed the silver bullet creatures and some of the enabler ratios around). I took Tireless Tracker out pretty fast because getting the 4th land is pretty hard in that deck, even in Danteh's 13(!)-cantrip list. (Admittedly, the 1-of Jori En, Ruin Diver I put in the Danteh list performed better, so it stayed...)
I'm trying Sam Black's list out on Cockatrice against myself right now, and I was really tempted to pull a Tireless Tracker for a bullet. Part of me's thinking that it has to be a 4-of in the Sam Black list, though, because the 1st one is likely to die for no value or get delayed big-time, and 4 of them maximize the chance of the double-Tracker-plus-Pia and Kiran Nalaar endgame (which is pretty good when it gets going).
I actually also tried Tireless Tracker after being absolutely destroyed by it against an Abzan opponent who drew like 4 cards and got a giant Tracker before I could kill it, and it's been pretty awesome, honestly. I think people here haven't played the card and are just theorycrafting, cause I didn't think it would be good either at first glance. The thing is, if you can tutor for it in a grindy matchup after most resources have been spent and you sandbag a fetchland, it'an absolute MONSTER which will draw you even more fetchlands off the Clues while getting giant, simultaneously burying the opponent in card advantage and killing him.
Here's where I'm at now with RUG Traverse by the way, I'd say it's pretty much 90% refined as I have playtested for around 50 hours and 100+ matches:
I think Tireless Tracker will have play-ability but the deck needs to adjust to it. It cannot be a threat, I see the card as simple CA in a green deck without having to force yourself to run card draws from say blue or black which if you ask me, this is one of the best CA you have aside from co-co, and glimpse, the latter is banned in modern.
You also need to run a deck that doesn't care if Tireless Tracker dies.
I am testing the Tracker out in my special brew Eldrazi deck just for the CA given the extra mana I can get in turn 2 or 3, replacing my probes at the moment to see how it plays out. So Tracker for me is a turn 2 play, if it gets removed I will be happy because Thought-Knot will be the optimal turn 3 play.
I would never play 4xTireless Tracker in modern. But I like it as a 1/2 of if you want some value. It's a 3cmc creature that you will almost always only play as a 4 drop with a fetch land so you get value for sure. You can almost always do that if you only play 1 or 2 of them. Not with 4. It's a lot more playable than Den Protector for example. It's pretty good with Collected Company or Aether Vial.
Could see it as a 4-of in a human coco deck with Knight of the white Orchid and Knight of the Reliquary, but that's the only place it goes. Thalia's Lieutenant, triggering champion of the parish, etc.
No, but I haven't really heard a convincing reason to not try it yet. I think that in general people under rate the power of conditional 3 mana 2 for 1's.
But there are plenty of reasons out there that will prevent ME from trying it. I just don't have the time to dedicate to testing things unless they clear a certain (undefined) hurdle and this card doesn't cut it for me.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
What viable, conditional three-mana two-for-ones can you name in Modern? I can name a number of unconditional creatures that fit those crtieria (Finks, Clique, Witness, etc.), but the conditional ones are few and far between. Knight of the Reliquary doesn't even cut it at scale and she's much more monstrous than Tracker. Mentor doesn't cut it at all.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
We could start with Courser of Kruphix which your earlier article pointed out does see some play, and does pass the various tests for the format.
This is my normal approach, however since it's summer I'm traveling for the next few weeks as part of my break. As a result I have limited to no ability to play unless I find some random card shop playing Modern, but even in that case I didn't bring a deck with me where the card would be appropriate.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Courser unconditionally passes the Bolt test and is still pretty fringe. I don't think there are any in the Tracker category (don't pass Bolt test) which meet those standards. At absolute best, it would be even more fringe than the already borderline Courser.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
I didn't state that it wouldn't be fringe. There's lots of cards that only see play in 1-2 decks, but they're good in those decks.
A point in it's favor is that the meta has slowed down a little bit. I agree that you probably don't want it if games are over on turn 4 or even 5, but even most 4 drops you don't want if the games end that quickly.
Note that the interaction with Path is actually pretty nice, it basically turns off PTE from the opponent unless they kill it first.
Doesn't olivia fail the bolt test and not cast a spell when she enters the battle field. Does she still see some play?
She does see play as a one-of in certain metagames and matchups. These days, she's mostly chilling in the Jund sideboard if they use her at all. Tracker, however, is no Olivia Voldaren and doesn't take over the game at nearly the same rate as she does.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Honestly? In a Jund like deck, probably 2.
KotR is neat, but what is really needed is something synergistic that's not a 3 on the curve. I think KotR can accomplish much the same just using Horizon Canopy though.
Link
Welp time to test in modern....
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Sadly, his Modern record was pretty terrible, which could be a strike against the card, the deck, and/or the context for his strategy:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/mtgochamp15/standings-format
My suspicion is that he made a metagame call like we see at other small Worlds-style events and it didn't pay off. This happens and isn't necessarily a knock at the player or the underlying strengths of what they are trying to do: see Chapin's awful Esper Delve performance last year before better delve decks took center stage. That is to say, Temur Traverse may be good, but Black might have built it wrong or in a targeted, niche way. The first thing I would change would be the tracker because other successful Temur lists have not been using them.
That matchup was pretty much a case study for why tracker's body is insufficient for modern.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I tried Tireless Tracker as a 1-of in a similar 19-land Traverse the Ulvenwald RUG Midrange deck (took Danteh(?)'s list and changed the silver bullet creatures and some of the enabler ratios around). I took Tireless Tracker out pretty fast because getting the 4th land is pretty hard in that deck, even in Danteh's 13(!)-cantrip list. (Admittedly, the 1-of Jori En, Ruin Diver I put in the Danteh list performed better, so it stayed...)
I'm trying Sam Black's list out on Cockatrice against myself right now, and I was really tempted to pull a Tireless Tracker for a bullet. Part of me's thinking that it has to be a 4-of in the Sam Black list, though, because the 1st one is likely to die for no value or get delayed big-time, and 4 of them maximize the chance of the double-Tracker-plus-Pia and Kiran Nalaar endgame (which is pretty good when it gets going).
I actually also tried Tireless Tracker after being absolutely destroyed by it against an Abzan opponent who drew like 4 cards and got a giant Tracker before I could kill it, and it's been pretty awesome, honestly. I think people here haven't played the card and are just theorycrafting, cause I didn't think it would be good either at first glance. The thing is, if you can tutor for it in a grindy matchup after most resources have been spent and you sandbag a fetchland, it'an absolute MONSTER which will draw you even more fetchlands off the Clues while getting giant, simultaneously burying the opponent in card advantage and killing him.
Here's where I'm at now with RUG Traverse by the way, I'd say it's pretty much 90% refined as I have playtested for around 50 hours and 100+ matches:
Traverse the Krasis
2 Bounding Krasis
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Deceiver Exarch
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Serum Visions
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Tarfire
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Remand
1 Roast
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Steam Vents
2 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Lumbering Falls
1 Dispel
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Negate
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spellskite
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Ghost Quarter
You also need to run a deck that doesn't care if Tireless Tracker dies.
I am testing the Tracker out in my special brew Eldrazi deck just for the CA given the extra mana I can get in turn 2 or 3, replacing my probes at the moment to see how it plays out. So Tracker for me is a turn 2 play, if it gets removed I will be happy because Thought-Knot will be the optimal turn 3 play.
Miracles (Sort-of)
Modern: UBW Control
Titan's Path (Eldrazi)
Could see it as a 4-of in a human coco deck with Knight of the white Orchid and Knight of the Reliquary, but that's the only place it goes. Thalia's Lieutenant, triggering champion of the parish, etc.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall