Serums Visions is not particularly good in control, cantrip spells never were really good in control. Cantrip spells are good for faster decks (tempo and combo) that needs to set up their draws and so card selection is important to them. In slower decks (control, midrange) card draw is better and as that AV is better in Jeskai control than Serums Visions, you need card advantage not card selection.
This conversation was going along just fine without banlist talk. No more ban or unban discussion after this post: the Modern forum rules are very clear about this.
I sure hope she doesn't get that high. I mean she's really good in modern but is she THAT good?
She shows promise, but only time will tell if she's the real deal. Remember, Abzan Company had 3 of the Top 8 slots and won in Milwaukee, but is nowhere to be seen this week. Not even a single day-2 conversion. So let's keep our expectations realistic on Nahiri and see where she lands in the GP. I mean, I got my playset a little bit ago and will be playing it myself in the foreseeable future and I think it's a great step forward, but it's no Splinter Twin, and she's no Liliana.
I sure hope she doesn't get that high. I mean she's really good in modern but is she THAT good?
She shows promise, but only time will tell if she's the real deal. Remember, Abzan Company had 3 of the Top 8 slots and won in Milwaukee, but is nowhere to be seen this week. Not even a single day-2 conversion. So let's keep our expectations realistic on Nahiri and see where she lands in the GP. I mean, I got my playset a little bit ago and will be playing it myself in the foreseeable future and I think it's a great step forward, but it's no Splinter Twin, and she's no Liliana.
Why even say splinter twin when it's nothing like a planeswalker? When I call her "the next liliana" when I mean is that it was a card that saw no hype until people started playing it. I have no doubt that Nahiri is only going to see more play as time goes on.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
I sure hope she doesn't get that high. I mean she's really good in modern but is she THAT good?
She shows promise, but only time will tell if she's the real deal. Remember, Abzan Company had 3 of the Top 8 slots and won in Milwaukee, but is nowhere to be seen this week. Not even a single day-2 conversion. So let's keep our expectations realistic on Nahiri and see where she lands in the GP. I mean, I got my playset a little bit ago and will be playing it myself in the foreseeable future and I think it's a great step forward, but it's no Splinter Twin, and she's no Liliana.
Why even say splinter twin when it's nothing like a planeswalker? When I call her "the next liliana" when I mean is that it was a card that saw no hype until people started playing it. I have no doubt that Nahiri is only going to see more play as time goes on.
now I get where you're coming from. I might as well get it while its cheap as I still need it
I sure hope she doesn't get that high. I mean she's really good in modern but is she THAT good?
She shows promise, but only time will tell if she's the real deal. Remember, Abzan Company had 3 of the Top 8 slots and won in Milwaukee, but is nowhere to be seen this week. Not even a single day-2 conversion. So let's keep our expectations realistic on Nahiri and see where she lands in the GP. I mean, I got my playset a little bit ago and will be playing it myself in the foreseeable future and I think it's a great step forward, but it's no Splinter Twin, and she's no Liliana.
Why even say splinter twin when it's nothing like a planeswalker? When I call her "the next liliana" when I mean is that it was a card that saw no hype until people started playing it. I have no doubt that Nahiri is only going to see more play as time goes on.
I was referring to her role in the deck and the kind of deck she is wanting to be when teamed up with Emrakul. I also am extremely skeptical of her staying power, especially at 4 mana in boros colors. We will see where she ends up. I have high hopes and low expectations moving forward.
Honestly I think Nahiri is waaaay over hyped right now. She's only in the deck she's in because she presents a reliable endgame, which is something the deck sorely needs. Its pretty new tech and not on folk's radar. Does anybody have the day one deck numbers? 3 Jeskai control decks made day two. How many started? So she made an impact when no one was watching for her. Let's see how she does next weekend. I predict an uptick in the number of negates being played...
I think Nahiri might suffer from being too good. Where LotV is an enabler, NtH is the total win con. Eh, pithing needle is a thing.
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I think Nahiri has staying power, but we will see her decrease in numbers. Right now she is a 4 of in Jeskai. I could easily see the deck move Nahiri to a 3 or 2 of, and keep it at that. The first builds of Pod where jamming playsets of the combo until it was discovered they didn't need to. This is what I see happening.
Now if she becomes the de-facto Jeskai control finisher, we may see some planeswalker hate come into play. I don't think that Pithing Needle will work, as it's too easily answered, and it's hard to protect in modern. I'd fear things like Slaughter Games and cards of it's nature. Right now Nahiri seems to be the decks only real win con, so removing her will hurt. I'm interested too see what back up win con the deck springs for.
It's not like the deck can't win without Nahiri; the beauty of pithing needle is it's a 1 mana investment you can do at any point. Slaughter games is 4 mana and the tempo you lose from it can easily cost you the game. It also does not stop a Nahiri on the board, and she's coincidentally the same mana cost.
The good answers to planeswalkers are removal, creatures (particularly hasted or hexproof creatures) and pithing needle.
Another card I suspect that'll start seeing some fringe play:
Venser, Shaper savant
Pretty solid answer to a resolved Emrakul that also does cool stuff (like putting slaughter games back in your hand so I can resolve a Nahiri, wakka wakka).
"I'm interested too see what back up win con the deck springs for."
That right there is the deck's weakness. I don't think the deck has room for another win con. The most it has available is beats with SCM and VC, which is to say not much. All available space is taken up with cards keeping you alive until Nahiri can go off. Nahiri is the answer the deck needed. Is it enough for it to become a sustainable element in the meta, we will see.
Private Mod Note
():
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
"I'm interested too see what back up win con the deck springs for."
That right there is the deck's weakness. I don't think the deck has room for another win con. The most it has available is beats with SCM and VC, which is to say not much. All available space is taken up with cards keeping you alive until Nahiri can go off. Nahiri is the answer the deck needed. Is it enough for it to become a sustainable element in the meta, we will see.
Eh, it can still fall back on Colonnade if it needs too. Not great, but it's an option. Bolt Snap Bolt is still a thing. Again, it's not that great, but time will tell.
I think Nahiri has staying power, but we will see her decrease in numbers. Right now she is a 4 of in Jeskai. I could easily see the deck move Nahiri to a 3 or 2 of, and keep it at that. The first builds of Pod where jamming playsets of the combo until it was discovered they didn't need to. This is what I see happening.
Now if she becomes the de-facto Jeskai control finisher, we may see some planeswalker hate come into play. I don't think that Pithing Needle will work, as it's too easily answered, and it's hard to protect in modern. I'd fear things like Slaughter Games and cards of it's nature. Right now Nahiri seems to be the decks only real win con, so removing her will hurt. I'm interested too see what back up win con the deck springs for.
The beauty of playing Nahiri is that the Jeskai decks still had all their other typical ways to win. An abundance of burn, flash creatures and 4 huge, flying manlands.
nahiri seems sweet in kiki-chord as chords 5-8. they waste resources on her? you just get more value out of your creatures. if you can't deal with her she will just put the last combo piece into play and kill you. she seems a little less stellar in jeskai. the slots are fairly tight in that deck and jamming 4x of her and 1x winrakul might be tricky. I will try though once I have a few more. I was fortuitous enough to open one when I was practicing building sealed pools yesterday
nahiri seems sweet in kiki-chord as chords 5-8. they waste resources on her? you just get more value out of your creatures. if you can't deal with her she will just put the last combo piece into play and kill you. she seems a little less stellar in jeskai. the slots are fairly tight in that deck and jamming 4x of her and 1x winrakul might be tricky. I will try though once I have a few more. I was fortuitous enough to open one when I was practicing building sealed pools yesterday
Actually in Jeskai the slots are not tight. They are highly customizable. One of the hardest parts about playing Jeskai is deciding what you want to use to fill the slots.
I guess I didn't mean they were tight in a general sense, just that the list in my head doesn't have room for them. but when I write down my thoughts I can make it work I'm sure. I have to get tired of just blue red control before any of this happens, though.
Nice to see Nahiri did its job and proved that it's a good card which I've been saying since spoiler came out. It's decent win condition for control, removal and kind of card draw/filter.
I will say that this whole circus with Nahiri has been extremely vindicating of my modern card evaluation skills. I called it, got made fun of at the LGS, and now everyone's all over it.
The Jeskai deck is extremely tight; having 5 slots dedicated to wincons instead of 2 is only possible because Nahiri also answers permanents, but the decks are still playing less unconditional removal and countermagic than a true control deck ought, and will get wrecked by the "wrong-half" problem because of that.
Cards like Lightning bolt and electrolyze not being able to remove Tarmogoyfs, main decking Anger of the Gods instead of verdict and running into Merfolk, etc.
Nahiri also really jams at the Cryptic slot on the curve which is an issue.
Bottom line I think the archetype is a long way from solved, but it's looking promising!
Nice to see Nahiri did its job and proved that it's a good card which I've been saying since spoiler came out. It's decent win condition for control, removal and kind of card draw/filter.
I will say that this whole circus with Nahiri has been extremely vindicating of my modern card evaluation skills. I called it, got made fun of at the LGS, and now everyone's all over it.
The Jeskai deck is extremely tight; having 5 slots dedicated to wincons instead of 2 is only possible because Nahiri also answers permanents, but the decks are still playing less unconditional removal and countermagic than a true control deck ought, and will get wrecked by the "wrong-half" problem because of that.
Cards like Lightning bolt and electrolyze not being able to remove Tarmogoyfs, main decking Anger of the Gods instead of verdict and running into Merfolk, etc.
Nahiri also really jams at the Cryptic slot on the curve which is an issue.
Bottom line I think the archetype is a long way from solved, but it's looking promising!
You do know that Merfolk is one of Jeskai's best match-ups right?
you just said yourself that the deck (jeskai, that is) is highly customizable and that there are lots of free slots? well if that's the case, you are going to run into the "wrong half" problem people keep bringing up. if you skimp on the spot removal/sweepers for more countermagic your combo matchups get better at the expense of your aggro ones. jamming 4x nahiri and 1x emrakul does not help this issue.
fish has not been a 'very good matchup' in my experience. they have caverns and aether vials to invalidate most of your counters leaving you completely reliant on having enough spot removal/sweepers. if you don't have a critical mass of those, you will just lose because they will island walk you to death. even a supreme verdict can come a bit too late if they hit lord after lord after lord. and lightning bolt also does nothing once there are enough lords in play. so I have to agree with pokken, I don't think fish was historically a really favorable matchup for jeskai. I don't think nahiri in the main deck makes that matchup any better either.
that said, I haven't played this newfangled AV powered jeskai control, so I could be completely wrong. we are a long way off from an optimal list (which I would argue may never even exist due to the highly customizable nature of the deck as you mentioned) so all we can do is keep brewing.
you just said yourself that the deck (jeskai, that is) is highly customizable and that there are lots of free slots? well if that's the case, you are going to run into the "wrong half" problem people keep bringing up. if you skimp on the spot removal/sweepers for more countermagic your combo matchups get better at the expense of your aggro ones. jamming 4x nahiri and 1x emrakul does not help this issue.
fish has not been a 'very good matchup' in my experience. they have caverns and aether vials to invalidate most of your counters leaving you completely reliant on having enough spot removal/sweepers. if you don't have a critical mass of those, you will just lose because they will island walk you to death. even a supreme verdict can come a bit too late if they hit lord after lord after lord. and lightning bolt also does nothing once there are enough lords in play. so I have to agree with pokken, I don't think fish was historically a really favorable matchup for jeskai. I don't think nahiri in the main deck makes that matchup any better either.
that said, I haven't played this newfangled AV powered jeskai control, so I could be completely wrong. we are a long way off from an optimal list (which I would argue may never even exist due to the highly customizable nature of the deck as you mentioned) so all we can do is keep brewing.
The decks are running something like 4 Path, 4 Bolt, 3-4 Helix, 1 sweeper, 2-3 Electrolyze, 4 snaps, 1-2 cliques. Post board bad counters come out and cards like Engineered Explosives, Anger of the Gods, Supreme Verdict, etc come in. Jeskai is my main deck, I wish I could play Merfolk every round, that DOESN"T mean it's some autowin, merfolk still has it's strong draws and you can, as you said draw the wrong spells, but there is no "wrong half", just a couple cards that might end up being bad. The counters are sometimes good too. They don't always have Cavern and if they are only using Vial then that's super slow and easy to spot removal.
I would have said that if anything jeskai is slightly advantaged; lots of people think Jund has a great fish matchup for a similar reason (tons of spot removal and such) but it does not play out like that in practice. When people say things like "best matchup" in the same statement as decks like merfolk I get titchy because I have played a huge variety of decks and never felt like merfolk was a free win (even with affinity!).
Note, this has gotten kind of off-topic, but the point I was making with Merfolk is that the Jeskai decks look heavily metagamed around a particular type of aggro today, and I'm not sure they are flexible enough to handle the metagame as it evolves.
If you start with 4 snaps/4 bolts/4 path/3 helices/1 electrolyze as your core you're pretty committed to a gameplan.
Note: The most appropriate comparison in terms of flexibility is probably Jund, which has cards like IoK/Thoughtseize/Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom pulse to allow them to deal with whatever comes.
Legacy has WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better cantrips. Serum Visions is a terrible card vs brainstorm,Jace, the mind sculptor, ponder, preordain, and Sensei's Divining Top. If control in modern had preordain then it would run serum more often but I don't want to talk about banned cards.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Carry on!
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=28&start_date=05/13/2016&end_date=05/15/2016&start=1&finish=32&event_ID=47&city=Indianapolis&limit=32&start_num=0
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
I sure hope she doesn't get that high. I mean she's really good in modern but is she THAT good?
She shows promise, but only time will tell if she's the real deal. Remember, Abzan Company had 3 of the Top 8 slots and won in Milwaukee, but is nowhere to be seen this week. Not even a single day-2 conversion. So let's keep our expectations realistic on Nahiri and see where she lands in the GP. I mean, I got my playset a little bit ago and will be playing it myself in the foreseeable future and I think it's a great step forward, but it's no Splinter Twin, and she's no Liliana.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Why even say splinter twin when it's nothing like a planeswalker? When I call her "the next liliana" when I mean is that it was a card that saw no hype until people started playing it. I have no doubt that Nahiri is only going to see more play as time goes on.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
now I get where you're coming from. I might as well get it while its cheap as I still need it
I was referring to her role in the deck and the kind of deck she is wanting to be when teamed up with Emrakul. I also am extremely skeptical of her staying power, especially at 4 mana in boros colors. We will see where she ends up. I have high hopes and low expectations moving forward.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I think Nahiri might suffer from being too good. Where LotV is an enabler, NtH is the total win con. Eh, pithing needle is a thing.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Now if she becomes the de-facto Jeskai control finisher, we may see some planeswalker hate come into play. I don't think that Pithing Needle will work, as it's too easily answered, and it's hard to protect in modern. I'd fear things like Slaughter Games and cards of it's nature. Right now Nahiri seems to be the decks only real win con, so removing her will hurt. I'm interested too see what back up win con the deck springs for.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
The good answers to planeswalkers are removal, creatures (particularly hasted or hexproof creatures) and pithing needle.
Another card I suspect that'll start seeing some fringe play:
Venser, Shaper savant
Pretty solid answer to a resolved Emrakul that also does cool stuff (like putting slaughter games back in your hand so I can resolve a Nahiri, wakka wakka).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
That right there is the deck's weakness. I don't think the deck has room for another win con. The most it has available is beats with SCM and VC, which is to say not much. All available space is taken up with cards keeping you alive until Nahiri can go off. Nahiri is the answer the deck needed. Is it enough for it to become a sustainable element in the meta, we will see.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Eh, it can still fall back on Colonnade if it needs too. Not great, but it's an option. Bolt Snap Bolt is still a thing. Again, it's not that great, but time will tell.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
The beauty of playing Nahiri is that the Jeskai decks still had all their other typical ways to win. An abundance of burn, flash creatures and 4 huge, flying manlands.
Actually in Jeskai the slots are not tight. They are highly customizable. One of the hardest parts about playing Jeskai is deciding what you want to use to fill the slots.
I will say that this whole circus with Nahiri has been extremely vindicating of my modern card evaluation skills. I called it, got made fun of at the LGS, and now everyone's all over it.
The Jeskai deck is extremely tight; having 5 slots dedicated to wincons instead of 2 is only possible because Nahiri also answers permanents, but the decks are still playing less unconditional removal and countermagic than a true control deck ought, and will get wrecked by the "wrong-half" problem because of that.
Cards like Lightning bolt and electrolyze not being able to remove Tarmogoyfs, main decking Anger of the Gods instead of verdict and running into Merfolk, etc.
Nahiri also really jams at the Cryptic slot on the curve which is an issue.
Bottom line I think the archetype is a long way from solved, but it's looking promising!
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
BlUEREdEnsoul Affinity REdBlUE
GREEnWHitETokensWHitEGREEn
BlUEWHitEFliersWHitEBlUE
BlUEREdIzzetREdBlUE
I played budget before it was cool.
IN NYC BEING COOL N STUFF
You do know that Merfolk is one of Jeskai's best match-ups right?
I would be interested in seeing the latest matchup win rate analysis but my recollection was Fish was slightly advantaged vs. old UWR.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
The deck is all spot removal and sometimes sweepers plus flash creatures.
Yes, the match-up is very good for Jeskai.
fish has not been a 'very good matchup' in my experience. they have caverns and aether vials to invalidate most of your counters leaving you completely reliant on having enough spot removal/sweepers. if you don't have a critical mass of those, you will just lose because they will island walk you to death. even a supreme verdict can come a bit too late if they hit lord after lord after lord. and lightning bolt also does nothing once there are enough lords in play. so I have to agree with pokken, I don't think fish was historically a really favorable matchup for jeskai. I don't think nahiri in the main deck makes that matchup any better either.
that said, I haven't played this newfangled AV powered jeskai control, so I could be completely wrong. we are a long way off from an optimal list (which I would argue may never even exist due to the highly customizable nature of the deck as you mentioned) so all we can do is keep brewing.
The decks are running something like 4 Path, 4 Bolt, 3-4 Helix, 1 sweeper, 2-3 Electrolyze, 4 snaps, 1-2 cliques. Post board bad counters come out and cards like Engineered Explosives, Anger of the Gods, Supreme Verdict, etc come in. Jeskai is my main deck, I wish I could play Merfolk every round, that DOESN"T mean it's some autowin, merfolk still has it's strong draws and you can, as you said draw the wrong spells, but there is no "wrong half", just a couple cards that might end up being bad. The counters are sometimes good too. They don't always have Cavern and if they are only using Vial then that's super slow and easy to spot removal.
Note, this has gotten kind of off-topic, but the point I was making with Merfolk is that the Jeskai decks look heavily metagamed around a particular type of aggro today, and I'm not sure they are flexible enough to handle the metagame as it evolves.
If you start with 4 snaps/4 bolts/4 path/3 helices/1 electrolyze as your core you're pretty committed to a gameplan.
Note: The most appropriate comparison in terms of flexibility is probably Jund, which has cards like IoK/Thoughtseize/Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom pulse to allow them to deal with whatever comes.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall