MTG Salvation

IMO, anyone who says Counterspell is too strong for Modern should be demanding Thoughtseize be banned. And anyone who says a 3 cmc or less 2 mana counter along these lines:

SmotherCounter UU
Instant
Counter target spell with CMC 3 or less.

Is too strong for modern should be demanding Inquisition of Kozilek be banned on top of TS.

Quote from AvalonAurora »

IMO, anyone who says Counterspell is too strong for Modern should be demanding Thoughtseize be banned. And anyone who says a 3 cmc or less 2 mana counter along these lines:

SmotherCounter UU
Instant
Counter target spell with CMC 3 or less.

Is too strong for modern should be demanding Inquisition of Kozilek be banned on top of TS.

Counterspell is a MUCH more powerful card than Thoughtseize. You can't really compare counters to discard spells like that. One of many reasons is that once you and your opponent get into top deck mode, drawing discard off the top is a dead draw whereas a counter is still useful.

That is why discard costs less mana and can be played effectively before your opponent hits 3 lands in a normal game when you are on the draw.

TS and IoK also give information on the opponent's hand that counters don't, which helps make up more of the difference.

Also, while TS and IoK _are_ sorcery speed, not all discard is, Kolaghan's Command being an example that sees play which is instant speed, if 3 cmc with added modes and such. The opponent could still play instant speed stuff in response, but it still affects sorcery speed top-decks.

IMO, it goes roughly like this for regular discard vs. counterspells:

Discard
+ 1 cmc
+ Grants information
+ cheap way to check for safety of playing a combo as well as making that combo play safer at the same time
+ Deals with the biggest problem opponent has in hand for you
+ Take initiative, doesn't have to hope opponent actually does something in order to utilize and not waste mana/tempo
+ Enables you to target the worst threats of opponent and shrink both player's hands down to topdeck mode, only relying your threats to be better in that situation and rely less on certain synergy types
- Sorcery speed, less effective against topdecks
- opponent can still play other things with their mana
- TS has life loss penalty, although IoK doesn't
- flashback and some other anti-discard mechanics like obstinate baloth

Counterspell
* 2 cmc
+ Mana used up by opponent without doing anything (particularly strong against on-curve threats)
+ Instant speed, more effective against topdecks
- information issues, might end up using on lesser threats if opponent has multiple low cost spells, less reliable against off-curve threats such as playing multiple creatures in an aggro deck in a single turn
- relies on you maintaining card advantage to keep up with opponent's threats
- effectively can't be played until mid-game on the draw
- double-single-color mana cost makes less splashable
- Cast trigger (eldrazi) and can't be countered stuff, sorta flashback in a different way (multiple chances to push through)
- reliant on opponent actually doing something if you hold up mana for a counter, otherwise you lose tempo, even while the opponent might be advancing their gameplan in some weird way, or perhaps even doing stuff that can't be countered such as cycling, or activating abilities of permanents already on the battlefield or something

IMO, it generally balances out against each-other. You can't ignore some advantages of discard over counters while acknowledging it's weaknesses, and visa versa and such.

This thread just became a satellite reprint discussion, so I'm going to say it's run it's course. Feel free to continue the various Modern discussions elsewhere.

Thread locked.