I'd like to know the community's thought on number of Ancestral Vision vs the number of Serum Visions.
I've been trying to build Grixis Control, Jeskai Control and some sort of control and I've seen decks that ran anywhere between (AV:SV) 4:0 to 4:2 to 0:4.
After some testing, I feel like SV is still a better card. I've been testing with the ratio of 3:4. Here are some of my experience in general:
Serum Visions Pros:
I as able to keep hands like 1 land + 1 SV + 5 other good cards, I feel like if the SV was an AV, I wouldn't be able to keep that hand
SV is good in most, if not, all stages of the game, AV is generally only good in the beginning
It has also very likely that you don't draw anything when AV resolves
Scry helps with you are playing delver
Ancestral Vision Pros:
SV is not exactly card advantage, AV is
These experiences are with Main Deck, obviously you side out AV if you are playing against a fast deck.
I'd like to hear what the community thinks about AV vs SV.
I like AV better in decks that want to spend the early turns stabilizing, as AV lets them refill after dumping a bunch of counters/removal (uwr/grixis control)
Serum visions is better in decks that want to establish a board presence early and ride that to victory (uwr midrange/ur delver)
I like AV better in decks that want to spend the early turns stabilizing, as AV lets them refill after dumping a bunch of counters/removal (uwr/grixis control)
As a Blue Moon player, this is precisely correct. Though my list is currently running a 2-3 split between SV and AV, letting me set up some early draws and refill my hand later on as well.
If you are playing control you should not even be playing SV unless you are looking for a combo. Cantrips are for tempo or combo decks while a properly built control deck uses card draw. For pure control Think Twice is even better than serum visions as shown by the control king himself Wafo Tapa.
For a control deck against an aggro deck, wouldn't SV be better at finding answers?
I feel like most tier 1 or 2 decks now are so fast, control deck will need to find early answers else they lose. Wouldn't that make SV better? Since most of the time you would lose by the time AV resolves.
After last night, I really really don't like AV. When it's good, it's great, but often it's just bad. At Modern Monday, I was playing a Grixis Control list and lost at least 3 games of the night with AV still on suspend. It only actually resolved twice, and only one time did it draw me something relevant enough to actually change the tides of the game. Serum Visions always draws a card and sets up your future draws and does it right away. If your deck can afford to buy 5 turns, AV can be great, but (assuming I stick with this build) I'm moving AV to the side right away and may cut them entirely.
Visions helps filter, Vision draws. In control you need both selection and raw CA. Personally, I would run test a split that favors Visions. It's cheap, it's fast, and the filtering is the best in the format. It's going to dig for what you need now, while AV is more of a refuel card. It's not uncommon to see a control player die with cards in hand because they never drew their out, something that SV helps prevent more than AV IMO.
Think the real question is what does Grixis play along side AV, SV or Thought Scour? While Serum is the more powerful card, Grixis can make use of is 'yard far better than most decks, what with it's Delvefatties and Flashback engines. But for Azorius or Jeskia, I'd think a 4/2, or 4/3 split is correct, favoring Serum Visions.
I think running a split between the two is the way to go. I ran 4 of each on Monday and it didn't really feel awful except that AV is really bad vs infect/affinity/fast decks. but its an easy 4 cards to side out which is nice. I'd probably opt to play 3-3 in the future. visions for quality, vision for quantity. visions for finding answers/setting up tempo vs. fast decks, vision to out card and out grind in an attrition war.
I think the real obvious question is where do you want the game state to be on turn 5? If you're playing with or against a deck that wants to win around turn 5 then AV is basically unplayable because even if you suspend it turn 1 by the time you draw the cards, they may no longer be relevant. If you're playing a deck such as Teachings (not claiming it's the best deck to play in Modern) then almost regardless of when you draw AV it won't be a dead draw. If you're a deck that doesn't win until turn 10 then suspending it turn 3 with counter magic back up is still perfectly fine. Not many decks go that deep so I feel AV is a little hyped. You also have to take into consideration than AV provides no early game velocity. However, since I like to play decks where on turn 5 I'm still warming up, I think it's a good card for me. I think people are trying to jam it into too many midrange decks though.
I've been playing a combo-ish UW control deck lately, and I have Serum Visions in there instead of Ancestral. I am looking for pieces to try and get a defensive soft lock in place, so the filtering is important. If I was playing straight up UW control I'd probably prefer Ancestral. That said, things I don't like about Ancestral:
It offers nothing early on when you just need to dig a little deeper to curve out how you want
It's a bad top deck late game (not saying Visions is amazing, but it at least cantrips and can set you up for next turn)
I've been trying to build Grixis Control, Jeskai Control and some sort of control and I've seen decks that ran anywhere between (AV:SV) 4:0 to 4:2 to 0:4.
After some testing, I feel like SV is still a better card. I've been testing with the ratio of 3:4. Here are some of my experience in general:
Serum Visions Pros:
I as able to keep hands like 1 land + 1 SV + 5 other good cards, I feel like if the SV was an AV, I wouldn't be able to keep that hand
SV is good in most, if not, all stages of the game, AV is generally only good in the beginning
It has also very likely that you don't draw anything when AV resolves
Scry helps with you are playing delver
Ancestral Vision Pros:
SV is not exactly card advantage, AV is
These experiences are with Main Deck, obviously you side out AV if you are playing against a fast deck.
I'd like to hear what the community thinks about AV vs SV.
Serum visions is better in decks that want to establish a board presence early and ride that to victory (uwr midrange/ur delver)
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
As a Blue Moon player, this is precisely correct. Though my list is currently running a 2-3 split between SV and AV, letting me set up some early draws and refill my hand later on as well.
I feel like most tier 1 or 2 decks now are so fast, control deck will need to find early answers else they lose. Wouldn't that make SV better? Since most of the time you would lose by the time AV resolves.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Think the real question is what does Grixis play along side AV, SV or Thought Scour? While Serum is the more powerful card, Grixis can make use of is 'yard far better than most decks, what with it's Delve fatties and Flashback engines. But for Azorius or Jeskia, I'd think a 4/2, or 4/3 split is correct, favoring Serum Visions.
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