Ask any regular human being what "pro" means and the answer you will get is professional, not promotional. It drives me nuts that WOTC debt the need to redefine what words mean so they could get people on board with their evolved intentions for the events. The pro tour was created as an outlet for the highest level competition and deliberately tried to model after the professional level tournaments for smaller sports, more or less.
Let's also not get caught up in the false dichotomy that WOTC has invented, that we either needed to have shakeup bans (ie ones that are not motivated intrinsically by threats to format health) or we needed to drop the Modern Pro Tour. There are other ways that things could have been managed, had the interest been there. WOTC devotes little thought to Modern in design, but they've also given it little thought in terms of how it could be managed. That's find, Modern isn't their biggest concern, but I don't think we should just accept this fairly counterintuitive claim that they've made without being critical.
After they ruined modern in orther to "shake up" (sell boxes), near to modern PT, they finally understand that it's more risky to make enternal player angry because we can quit for good, and they will loose modern/eternal masters buyers.
Modern can finally be, and we still have MWC, GP, SCG in the states, MKM series in europe.
My thougts? Finally, because PT already destroyed Splinter Twin, the last casualies of many.
Private Mod Note
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My Decks on Paper: UWR Control/Midrange/Delver UWR Twin Miss you GBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only) GWAura Hexproof GWHatebears
Can't get too deeply involved in this thread because I need to write my article instead, but I will say that "Pro Tour" does not stand for "Promotional Tour." I'll paste a quote here from an article I never published about ending the Modern Pro Tour.
"Let's start debunking a persistent myth: the "Pro Tour" is not the "Promotional Tour" or "Promotional Tournament." It truly does just stand for the "Professional Tour." Although Pro Tours are unquestionably aimed at marketing Magic, spotlighting players, and showcasing decks (more on that soon), the events themselves are not actually "Promotional" in title. The Professional Tour got its name in 1996 during the original Showdown in New York. This was what commentators dubbed the tournament in old Showdown footage, and how it appears in fond reminiscences by both Aaron Forsythe and Brian David-Marshall. It's important to start with this common misconception because we can't discuss the Pro Tour's purpose or goals if we don't even know its name. Two of my definitions would also be much more obvious if the Tour was "Promotional" by name."
To all those celebrating this news: Don't count on this being all sunshine and rainbows. This is one step closer to being an unsupported format like Legacy and nothing more than vague promises as to a better ban list. There was absolutely nothing forcing "shakeup bans" other than Wizards themselves. It would not surprise me at all if this is just them trying to use the *****ty circumstances modern just emerged from to cut costs and push more standard.
Mark my words. Losing our Pro Tour is anything but positive for Modern in the long run.
...we want to reward good drafting, innovative deck building, and tight gameplay in unestablished environments.
As I understand, draft and sealed-deck are the most profitable. It is also an "unestablished environment" every time, by definition. This is why they emphasise "unestablished environments", and why they feel a Modern Pro-tour that cannot be shaken-up with bannings is not worth having at all.
But if that is the case, why not just draft and sealed for the pro-tour? What's the point of Standard Constructed? By mixing two formats, a better limited player can drop out because they lost more in the constructed portions. This distorts the results.
the skill of the pro players combined with the high incentives of the event really accelerated the tuning and development of the best decks (such as this year's Eldrazi menace) to a large degree, which isn't great for a format that is designed to change very slowly over time.
Can several dozen professional players solve a format faster than thousands of casual players? Your intuition will say yes because they are professionals! But I am not sure. Use mathematics or computer science as an example. Extremely specialised, 99.9% have no clue. More and more "unsolved" problems have in-fact been solved by crowdsourcing. So why don't they do it more often? Because you need a way to distribute the credit and monetary compensation in an equitable manner. Professors need to eat too. But with thousands of people, this is impossible.
To all those celebrating this news: Don't count on this being all sunshine and rainbows. This is one step closer to being an unsupported format like Legacy and nothing more than vague promises as to a better ban list. There was absolutely nothing forcing "shakeup bans" other than Wizards themselves. It would not surprise me at all if this is just them trying to use the *****ty circumstances modern just emerged from to cut costs and push more standard.
Mark my words. Losing our Pro Tour is anything but positive for Modern in the long run.
As long as it's still supported by MTGO and the LGSs currently supporting it keep doing so, who cares if Wizards doesn't "support" it? It's not like Legacy where very few people actually play it. In fact a few stores around here have bigger Modern turnouts on weeknights than some other stores on their Standard FNM. As long as it can be a sanctioned event and people want to play, the format will be fine. Plus there is plenty of "support" in wildly popular Modern GPs, SCG Opens/Regionals/States, and what looks to be annual supplemental product that sells like hot cakes in Modern Masters and Eternal Masters.
as long as the game keeps growing.... players who want an alternative to standard and want to actually keep their cards will move to a non-rotating format... the pro tour has nothing to do with that...
and as long as there is demand for the format there will be plenty of tourney support... the pro tour has never driven demand for the format...
with drafting of the new set as a big requisite for the pro tour format... it definitely was not a good showcase for modern... if they weren't going to change that this makes perfect sense...
whether it's scg or cfb someone will step in to fill the void in terms of tourney support...
I think people are actively forgetting that "no Modern Pro Tour" also means a significant reduction in "overnight explosive price increases" in obscure cards. How many times did we see after a Pro Tour (or large scale streamed event like GP or World Champ) the price of singular obscure cards skyrocket literally within hours of public viewing? A short example list: Porphyry Nodes, Shadow of Doubt, Ensnaring Bridge, Hive Mind, Worship, The Rack, Primal Command... the list goes on.
Price increases will still occur as new decks build popularity on MODO or SCG Open, but maybe over days or weeks not mere hours. I can only see this as a blessing as someone who has been keeping up with modern since its original announcement in 2011 and wants to see his friends who haven't be able to afford playing the format as well.
Complete ignoramus here (new to the format -- maybe not at the best time...), so... Can anyone explain the different types of 'tours' or competitions, and who sponsors/sanctions them? I understand that this announcement means Modern is no longer supported by the 'Pro Tour', but what other tours/events/etc. are there?
Complete ignoramus here (new to the format -- maybe not at the best time...), so... Can anyone explain the different types of 'tours' or competitions, and who sponsors/sanctions them? I understand that this announcement means Modern is no longer supported by the 'Pro Tour', but what other tours/events/etc. are there?
It means absolutely nothing, other than the implied interpretations by individuals. Given the past couple of years, losing the Pro Tour is probably the best thing that could happen to Modern.
In Helene's article I noticed that Modern also isn't listed as an RPTQ/PTQ format at all. With just GP's and Opens which average about once a month, and FNM demand is there a chance we see some pretty big price decreases here? A lot of the competitive push has just been removed from the format.
Can't get too deeply involved in this thread because I need to write my article instead, but I will say that "Pro Tour" does not stand for "Promotional Tour." I'll paste a quote here from an article I never published about ending the Modern Pro Tour.
"Let's start debunking a persistent myth: the "Pro Tour" is not the "Promotional Tour" or "Promotional Tournament." It truly does just stand for the "Professional Tour." Although Pro Tours are unquestionably aimed at marketing Magic, spotlighting players, and showcasing decks (more on that soon), the events themselves are not actually "Promotional" in title. The Professional Tour got its name in 1996 during the original Showdown in New York. This was what commentators dubbed the tournament in old Showdown footage, and how it appears in fond reminiscences by both Aaron Forsythe and Brian David-Marshall. It's important to start with this common misconception because we can't discuss the Pro Tour's purpose or goals if we don't even know its name. Two of my definitions would also be much more obvious if the Tour was "Promotional" by name."
Come on man. Of course it does not stand for promotional we all know that.
I thought most people would get some sarcasm with out a grinning smiley.
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Legacy - Reanimator
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
As long as that doesn't mean fewer GPs, I don't have a problem with it.
I'm afraid that there will also be less GP's since no more PT's means that Wizards will care less about Modern. I don't think we will have less numbers of GP's just yet but I feel like it will happen after some time. This is the only thing I don't like about this Wizards decision being good for Modern otherwise.
Considering how successful and popular modern GP's are I doubt we would get less of them.
Can't get too deeply involved in this thread because I need to write my article instead, but I will say that "Pro Tour" does not stand for "Promotional Tour." I'll paste a quote here from an article I never published about ending the Modern Pro Tour.
"Let's start debunking a persistent myth: the "Pro Tour" is not the "Promotional Tour" or "Promotional Tournament." It truly does just stand for the "Professional Tour." Although Pro Tours are unquestionably aimed at marketing Magic, spotlighting players, and showcasing decks (more on that soon), the events themselves are not actually "Promotional" in title. The Professional Tour got its name in 1996 during the original Showdown in New York. This was what commentators dubbed the tournament in old Showdown footage, and how it appears in fond reminiscences by both Aaron Forsythe and Brian David-Marshall. It's important to start with this common misconception because we can't discuss the Pro Tour's purpose or goals if we don't even know its name. Two of my definitions would also be much more obvious if the Tour was "Promotional" by name."
Come on man. Of course it does not stand for promotional we all know that.
I thought most people would get some sarcasm with out a grinning smiley.
You apparently have much better interactions with the average Moderner than I do. I have seen that argument made seriously on numerous occasions.
Well, Wizards of the Coast has successfully killed any interest I had in watching future Pro Tours as well as any interest I had in any PTQs that aren't in my home city (and possibly even those). It makes me feel like they're actively trying to push me away from the game (it's not for nothing I've taken up Force of Will).
I still don't know why they don't have at least some of the Pro Tours be split Standard/Modern. It just solves everything. It gives the Modern fans something interesting. It keeps the Pro Tour NEW AND EXCITING because you have the Standard portion, so even if the Modern part is a bit repetitive the Standard portion is NEW AND EXCITING. The only downside is that it drops the draft portion, and legitimate question: Is anyone actually that interested in watching that part? Most people I know just ignore the Pro Tour until the first three rounds are done. I can understand a desire for limited in order to 'challenge' people but that doesn't mean they have to do it every Pro Tour. They could easily have every other Pro Tour being Standard+Limited and the intervening ones being Standard+Modern.
Am I missing something? This just seems such an obvious solution to everything.
(I posted this in the banlist topic, but then noticed this one and realized it was more relevant here)
in a tourney trying to feature your newest cards it makes no sense pitting it in a different format where they are significantly weaker... a turn jace vp in standard and a turn 2 jace in modern mean entirely different things so i can understand that they wouldn't want to do it side by side...
and it never really made sense for them to run a modern pro tour at all if their goal was to showcase the new set... it makes a ton of sense if they want to showcase the history of the game and what you can do with your cards after your cards rotate out of standard and the things you can do... but for whatever reason wizards just doesn't view modern in that light...
Can't get too deeply involved in this thread because I need to write my article instead, but I will say that "Pro Tour" does not stand for "Promotional Tour." I'll paste a quote here from an article I never published about ending the Modern Pro Tour.
"Let's start debunking a persistent myth: the "Pro Tour" is not the "Promotional Tour" or "Promotional Tournament." It truly does just stand for the "Professional Tour." Although Pro Tours are unquestionably aimed at marketing Magic, spotlighting players, and showcasing decks (more on that soon), the events themselves are not actually "Promotional" in title. The Professional Tour got its name in 1996 during the original Showdown in New York. This was what commentators dubbed the tournament in old Showdown footage, and how it appears in fond reminiscences by both Aaron Forsythe and Brian David-Marshall. It's important to start with this common misconception because we can't discuss the Pro Tour's purpose or goals if we don't even know its name. Two of my definitions would also be much more obvious if the Tour was "Promotional" by name."
Come on man. Of course it does not stand for promotional we all know that.
I thought most people would get some sarcasm with out a grinning smiley.
You apparently have much better interactions with the average Moderner than I do. I have seen that argument made seriously on numerous occasions.
Maybe I should have said most people
Anyway I don't want to bash people or make trouble I was just trying to say that it is not that bad and the sky is not falling and all that kind of stuff.
I am waiting for your article because I like reading articles in Modern Nexus so keep them coming.
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Legacy - Reanimator
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
Eh, I only care to watch magic in non rotating formats. Plus because I do other things than follow magic, keeping up with Standard and limited is to time intensive for me. At least with Modern and Legacy I know the general format very well and once you do that its easy to stay on top of stuff.
I also think this is lazy on WOTC's part. They can't be assed to keep up with the format so they say whatever. I hope it blows up in their face when they realize that you need relevant formats after standard.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
I'm new to "competitive" magic so someone shed some light for me: what does this mean for competitive Modern?
Time will tell of course, but in the immediate future you have GPs and SCG Opens as the highest level Modern events. Long term gets a little tricky. I absolutely love playing modern, but if my goal was to hypothetically get on a PT, than modern would no longer be a format to focus on competitively. It could be a great change for the format, or it could be a slow death (like Legacy as a competitive supported format). I'm hoping for the former.
I think the bigger hit was the one that people aren't paying attention to, which is the elimination of platinum membership for qualified players. It basically discourages a ton of content creators for the game due to financial reasons, among other things.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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Let's also not get caught up in the false dichotomy that WOTC has invented, that we either needed to have shakeup bans (ie ones that are not motivated intrinsically by threats to format health) or we needed to drop the Modern Pro Tour. There are other ways that things could have been managed, had the interest been there. WOTC devotes little thought to Modern in design, but they've also given it little thought in terms of how it could be managed. That's find, Modern isn't their biggest concern, but I don't think we should just accept this fairly counterintuitive claim that they've made without being critical.
Modern can finally be, and we still have MWC, GP, SCG in the states, MKM series in europe.
My thougts? Finally, because PT already destroyed Splinter Twin, the last casualies of many.
UWR Control/Midrange/Delver
UWR TwinMiss youGBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only)
GWAura Hexproof
GWHatebears
"Let's start debunking a persistent myth: the "Pro Tour" is not the "Promotional Tour" or "Promotional Tournament." It truly does just stand for the "Professional Tour." Although Pro Tours are unquestionably aimed at marketing Magic, spotlighting players, and showcasing decks (more on that soon), the events themselves are not actually "Promotional" in title. The Professional Tour got its name in 1996 during the original Showdown in New York. This was what commentators dubbed the tournament in old Showdown footage, and how it appears in fond reminiscences by both Aaron Forsythe and Brian David-Marshall. It's important to start with this common misconception because we can't discuss the Pro Tour's purpose or goals if we don't even know its name. Two of my definitions would also be much more obvious if the Tour was "Promotional" by name."
Mark my words. Losing our Pro Tour is anything but positive for Modern in the long run.
As I understand, draft and sealed-deck are the most profitable. It is also an "unestablished environment" every time, by definition. This is why they emphasise "unestablished environments", and why they feel a Modern Pro-tour that cannot be shaken-up with bannings is not worth having at all.
But if that is the case, why not just draft and sealed for the pro-tour? What's the point of Standard Constructed? By mixing two formats, a better limited player can drop out because they lost more in the constructed portions. This distorts the results.
Can several dozen professional players solve a format faster than thousands of casual players? Your intuition will say yes because they are professionals! But I am not sure. Use mathematics or computer science as an example. Extremely specialised, 99.9% have no clue. More and more "unsolved" problems have in-fact been solved by crowdsourcing. So why don't they do it more often? Because you need a way to distribute the credit and monetary compensation in an equitable manner. Professors need to eat too. But with thousands of people, this is impossible.
As long as it's still supported by MTGO and the LGSs currently supporting it keep doing so, who cares if Wizards doesn't "support" it? It's not like Legacy where very few people actually play it. In fact a few stores around here have bigger Modern turnouts on weeknights than some other stores on their Standard FNM. As long as it can be a sanctioned event and people want to play, the format will be fine. Plus there is plenty of "support" in wildly popular Modern GPs, SCG Opens/Regionals/States, and what looks to be annual supplemental product that sells like hot cakes in Modern Masters and Eternal Masters.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
and as long as there is demand for the format there will be plenty of tourney support... the pro tour has never driven demand for the format...
with drafting of the new set as a big requisite for the pro tour format... it definitely was not a good showcase for modern... if they weren't going to change that this makes perfect sense...
whether it's scg or cfb someone will step in to fill the void in terms of tourney support...
Price increases will still occur as new decks build popularity on MODO or SCG Open, but maybe over days or weeks not mere hours. I can only see this as a blessing as someone who has been keeping up with modern since its original announcement in 2011 and wants to see his friends who haven't be able to afford playing the format as well.
It means absolutely nothing, other than the implied interpretations by individuals. Given the past couple of years, losing the Pro Tour is probably the best thing that could happen to Modern.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Come on man. Of course it does not stand for promotional we all know that.
I thought most people would get some sarcasm with out a grinning smiley.
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
Oh, I must have misread it then.
Considering how successful and popular modern GP's are I doubt we would get less of them.
You apparently have much better interactions with the average Moderner than I do. I have seen that argument made seriously on numerous occasions.
I still don't know why they don't have at least some of the Pro Tours be split Standard/Modern. It just solves everything. It gives the Modern fans something interesting. It keeps the Pro Tour NEW AND EXCITING because you have the Standard portion, so even if the Modern part is a bit repetitive the Standard portion is NEW AND EXCITING. The only downside is that it drops the draft portion, and legitimate question: Is anyone actually that interested in watching that part? Most people I know just ignore the Pro Tour until the first three rounds are done. I can understand a desire for limited in order to 'challenge' people but that doesn't mean they have to do it every Pro Tour. They could easily have every other Pro Tour being Standard+Limited and the intervening ones being Standard+Modern.
Am I missing something? This just seems such an obvious solution to everything.
(I posted this in the banlist topic, but then noticed this one and realized it was more relevant here)
and it never really made sense for them to run a modern pro tour at all if their goal was to showcase the new set... it makes a ton of sense if they want to showcase the history of the game and what you can do with your cards after your cards rotate out of standard and the things you can do... but for whatever reason wizards just doesn't view modern in that light...
Maybe I should have said most people
Anyway I don't want to bash people or make trouble I was just trying to say that it is not that bad and the sky is not falling and all that kind of stuff.
I am waiting for your article because I like reading articles in Modern Nexus so keep them coming.
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
I also think this is lazy on WOTC's part. They can't be assed to keep up with the format so they say whatever. I hope it blows up in their face when they realize that you need relevant formats after standard.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
Time will tell of course, but in the immediate future you have GPs and SCG Opens as the highest level Modern events. Long term gets a little tricky. I absolutely love playing modern, but if my goal was to hypothetically get on a PT, than modern would no longer be a format to focus on competitively. It could be a great change for the format, or it could be a slow death (like Legacy as a competitive supported format). I'm hoping for the former.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!