I've been played the new jace in blue moon and faeries (as I feel he belongs there the most) and have been quite pleasantly surprised. Being able to scry away late game AV, discard spells, lands, or get rid of multiple blossoms or moons is nice. Being able to bounce my own mistbind clique/pia and kiran/etc, or opponent's creatures with moon/counterspells up is also pretty good.
Heaven forbid you even ulti, its quite difficult to lose. He's not keranos in that he is a solo win con, but scry 1 draw 1 is a lot stronger than people give it credit for.
I'm sure he can succeed in sideboard, but is he better than Ob nix when ob nix can kill a creature.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Scry + draw is a lot better than playing 1 to draw. -2 vs -3 is also relevent. Jace's ultimate is also a lot better.
If you're drawing into counterspells, countering things off the bounce is decent, and bouncing cliques to cycle stuff away, or mistbinds to just keep them locked out is also not bad. I think the biggest point is that with bitterblossom, thoughtseizes, lands, etc, paying 1 life to draw a card each turn can end you a lot quicker than you'd like. Jace's +1 is just so much better in that regard.
I believe the new Jace can find a home in Standard.
But in Modern, it is a tough because there are many other better PW options, for example, Tamiyo, the Moon Sage ...
I've been played the new jace in blue moon and faeries (as I feel he belongs there the most) and have been quite pleasantly surprised. Being able to scry away late game AV, discard spells, lands, or get rid of multiple blossoms or moons is nice. Being able to bounce my own mistbind clique/pia and kiran/etc, or opponent's creatures with moon/counterspells up is also pretty good.
Heaven forbid you even ulti, its quite difficult to lose. He's not keranos in that he is a solo win con, but scry 1 draw 1 is a lot stronger than people give it credit for.
Have you tried Chandra, Flamecaller instead? For one more mana, you get a planeswalker that wins the game by itself, digs harder, and clears the board of threats much easier and in a more permanent fashion.
I have tried chandra. She's not bad. Shes also totally incomparably. Chandra is good because she kills little things, she cycles away bad cards, and she wins the game. Jace is powerful because he fixes your draws, gives you card advantage, and can take care of bigger creatures. Jace just takes over the game.
I'm also not sure I agree chandra digs harder. She does, in an objective sense, if theres 1 card in your deck you need to draw, shes gonna find it faster than jace, but if you need to just keep the interaction coming, and not brick several draws, shes not always your girl. Being forced to discard whatever you have to wheel, especially at sorcery speed, can hurt decks like blue moon that need their counterspells.
I have tried chandra. She's not bad. Shes also totally incomparably. Chandra is good because she kills little things, she cycles away bad cards, and she wins the game. Jace is powerful because he fixes your draws, gives you card advantage, and can take care of bigger creatures. Jace just takes over the game.
I'm also not sure I agree chandra digs harder. She does, in an objective sense, if theres 1 card in your deck you need to draw, shes gonna find it faster than jace, but if you need to just keep the interaction coming, and not brick several draws, shes not always your girl. Being forced to discard whatever you have to wheel, especially at sorcery speed, can hurt decks like blue moon that need their counterspells.
As Modern is normally filled with smaller creatures outside of Tron decks, -3ing her then beating in for 6 each turn is usually much stronger than digging and slowly finding an additional win condition.
I could be wrong of course, but some card filtering or bouncing a creature each turn seems a bit lackluster at 5 mana, especially when a deck like CoCo can be in topdeck mode and throw out two threats in one turn.
Keranos just seems better. At 5 mana, he consistently nets you an extra card or some removal/burn each turn. On top of this he's also much more difficult to remove.
Not necessarily. Goyfs, tasigurs, scoozes, rhinos, angels, huntmaster, kalitas, etc don't usually die to 3 damage sweepers.
I think that without playing with the new jace, its much harder to correctly understand him. He's not a win con. If you want something to end the game, he's not gonna do it. But what if 2 3/1s isn't gonna do it? If you're staring down some walls, or a pair of goyfs, then chandra won't do it. If the board is stalled, or if 6 power won't race what they have, a lot of times jace is a better walker.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of keranos. Hes damage when you want a card, and hes a card when you want damage. While he's difficult to kill in theory, every deck you'd bring him in against has prepared their answers for him. If you have any sort of board presence, jace can also be quite hard to kill. I won't argue jace is amazing and belongs in every deck, but I have been seriously impressed so far.
Not necessarily. Goyfs, tasigurs, scoozes, rhinos, angels, huntmaster, kalitas, etc don't usually die to 3 damage sweepers.
I think that without playing with the new jace, its much harder to correctly understand him. He's not a win con. If you want something to end the game, he's not gonna do it. But what if 2 3/1s isn't gonna do it? If you're staring down some walls, or a pair of goyfs, then chandra won't do it. If the board is stalled, or if 6 power won't race what they have, a lot of times jace is a better walker.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of keranos. Hes damage when you want a card, and hes a card when you want damage. While he's difficult to kill in theory, every deck you'd bring him in against has prepared their answers for him. If you have any sort of board presence, jace can also be quite hard to kill. I won't argue jace is amazing and belongs in every deck, but I have been seriously impressed so far.
I can understand what your argument is, but my main issue here is that he bounces just one creature at a time, and when he does so is put into Bolt range.
Again, I think that he's not what you want at 5 mana. At 4 mana or more, you want a card that will win you the game or provide enough card advantage quickly so that you are put into a winning position - see wrath effects, most of Jund's 4-drops, and formerly Splinter Twin. This Jace will - slowly - get you card advantage, yes. But he does not protect himself well. If you're facing down 2+ creatures and you topdeck him looking for an out, you're gonna have a bad time. Yes he can bounce a Goyf, Wurmcoil etc, but only one and not the rest of the board.
I'll consider trying him in my sideboard sometime soon just to make sure I'm correct, but as it stands this is how I see him as a card.
Jace's -2 is not as good as chandras -x. It just isnt. Thats not the point though. scry 1 draw 1 is almost always better than wheeling your entire hand. Jace even goes up in loyalty when he draws.
At 4 plus mana, he does do an awful lot. He provides a solid amount of value, drawing you cards and getting cards you don't want off the top. He can bounce any creature so you can get value, or counter it on the way back down. His ulti, which is possibly one of the more obtainable ultimates on a walker, is pretty gamewinning in the decks I've played him in.
Sure, if you're staring down a pair of goyfs, hes not the best top deck. Is keranos better? Is chandra better? Probably not. Planeswalkers as cards aren't equipped to deal with several large creatures if they're late to the party. There just aren't really any walkers you can play that effectively deal with situations like that, and most of the walkers that can deal with them are unplayable in other regards.
On empty boards and stalemates, Jace is pretty strong. Decks like blue moon and faeries are both quite capable of getting the game into such a state, and playing a jace to follow up a moon, or a mistbind clique, or some such card is a very powerful play.
Jace's -2 is not as good as chandras -x. It just isnt. Thats not the point though. scry 1 draw 1 is almost always better than wheeling your entire hand. Jace even goes up in loyalty when he draws.
At 4 plus mana, he does do an awful lot. He provides a solid amount of value, drawing you cards and getting cards you don't want off the top. He can bounce any creature so you can get value, or counter it on the way back down. His ulti, which is possibly one of the more obtainable ultimates on a walker, is pretty gamewinning in the decks I've played him in.
Sure, if you're staring down a pair of goyfs, hes not the best top deck. Is keranos better? Is chandra better? Probably not. Planeswalkers as cards aren't equipped to deal with several large creatures if they're late to the party. There just aren't really any walkers you can play that effectively deal with situations like that, and most of the walkers that can deal with them are unplayable in other regards.
On empty boards and stalemates, Jace is pretty strong. Decks like blue moon and faeries are both quite capable of getting the game into such a state, and playing a jace to follow up a moon, or a mistbind clique, or some such card is a very powerful play.
Well...Elspeth, Sun's Champion can do it. Her -3 trashes on big creatures, and her +1 clogs the board hard. I also feel like on empty board states and stalemates, Elspeth just outshines most other planeswalkers. Sure, she's 1 mana more expensive, but time and again, she's proven to be solid enough to see play in mainboard and sideboard of UWx decks.
Of course, this is assuming the deck in question is also running white.
i play jace as a 1 of in my blue moon deck and when i land him he usually wins me the game, not on the spot but with a additional draw aswell as a scry each turn with the potential to remove any threats that slip through the cracks i usually have no issue locking down my oponent with counters and removal untill i can ult jace at wich point i win.
Most commonly i play him on turn 5, minus him to remove any threat my oponent might have (if not i start plussing right away), then untap and deal with whatever my oponent dropped while i was tapped out while plusing him untill he´s in ult range.
I don´t think he is mainboard material though, i just have him there to better test him, he might replace Jace AoT in the sideboard though, he costs one more but is way better at what he does
If you two are that adamant about him, I might just give him a spin and test him myself. I have a hard time understanding what role he falls under and why he should be played over something like Elspeth, Sun's Champion or Keranos...but I guess it's worth trying before passing final judgment.
In your opinion, why does this one outperform Jace, Architect of Thought? I feel like the Architect's dig ability is better than this new Jace.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Elspeth, sun's champ is definitely an exception. However, as you mentioned, it does require playing white. I've played him so far in u/r moon and u/b faeries, so I've had no access to suns champ.
I think he outperforms Jace AoT against decks like jund or grixis. (obviously not against tokens and the like). Jace, AoT's dig is good, but it only sees 1 card more than unraveler (potentially), and the difference between +1 and -2 is just huge. You can't repeatedly dig with architect, where as you can with unraveler.
I actually like unraveler along with AV, as you cans scry away later vision draws, and refilling your hand makes it much easier to counter things after you bounce them.
I admit I'm primarily playing him mainboard in moon so I see him more often. I suspect he belongs in the sideboard, but I think I'm quite happy with him there.
I don't think serum and sleight of hand are comparable to jace. If you mean to compare those to AV, I still think the provide different things. Its a treasure cruise vs dig through time kind of thing, but the fact that serum and sleight don't provide actual advantage is pretty big. Being able to dig for a blood moon which can often win on the spot is significant though.
I will keep pushing for now though, against slow-ish decks, jace is very much an "answer this quickly or get buried" similar to cards like Liliana or jtms.
While he is clearly not on their power level, I think hes still got enough going for him.
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I'm sure he can succeed in sideboard, but is he better than Ob nix when ob nix can kill a creature.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
If you're drawing into counterspells, countering things off the bounce is decent, and bouncing cliques to cycle stuff away, or mistbinds to just keep them locked out is also not bad. I think the biggest point is that with bitterblossom, thoughtseizes, lands, etc, paying 1 life to draw a card each turn can end you a lot quicker than you'd like. Jace's +1 is just so much better in that regard.
In land-go controll anyways.
UWR Control/Midrange/Delver
UWR TwinMiss youGBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only)
GWAura Hexproof
GWHatebears
But in Modern, it is a tough because there are many other better PW options, for example, Tamiyo, the Moon Sage ...
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
Have you tried Chandra, Flamecaller instead? For one more mana, you get a planeswalker that wins the game by itself, digs harder, and clears the board of threats much easier and in a more permanent fashion.
I'm also not sure I agree chandra digs harder. She does, in an objective sense, if theres 1 card in your deck you need to draw, shes gonna find it faster than jace, but if you need to just keep the interaction coming, and not brick several draws, shes not always your girl. Being forced to discard whatever you have to wheel, especially at sorcery speed, can hurt decks like blue moon that need their counterspells.
As Modern is normally filled with smaller creatures outside of Tron decks, -3ing her then beating in for 6 each turn is usually much stronger than digging and slowly finding an additional win condition.
I could be wrong of course, but some card filtering or bouncing a creature each turn seems a bit lackluster at 5 mana, especially when a deck like CoCo can be in topdeck mode and throw out two threats in one turn.
Keranos just seems better. At 5 mana, he consistently nets you an extra card or some removal/burn each turn. On top of this he's also much more difficult to remove.
I think that without playing with the new jace, its much harder to correctly understand him. He's not a win con. If you want something to end the game, he's not gonna do it. But what if 2 3/1s isn't gonna do it? If you're staring down some walls, or a pair of goyfs, then chandra won't do it. If the board is stalled, or if 6 power won't race what they have, a lot of times jace is a better walker.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of keranos. Hes damage when you want a card, and hes a card when you want damage. While he's difficult to kill in theory, every deck you'd bring him in against has prepared their answers for him. If you have any sort of board presence, jace can also be quite hard to kill. I won't argue jace is amazing and belongs in every deck, but I have been seriously impressed so far.
I can understand what your argument is, but my main issue here is that he bounces just one creature at a time, and when he does so is put into Bolt range.
Again, I think that he's not what you want at 5 mana. At 4 mana or more, you want a card that will win you the game or provide enough card advantage quickly so that you are put into a winning position - see wrath effects, most of Jund's 4-drops, and formerly Splinter Twin. This Jace will - slowly - get you card advantage, yes. But he does not protect himself well. If you're facing down 2+ creatures and you topdeck him looking for an out, you're gonna have a bad time. Yes he can bounce a Goyf, Wurmcoil etc, but only one and not the rest of the board.
I'll consider trying him in my sideboard sometime soon just to make sure I'm correct, but as it stands this is how I see him as a card.
At 4 plus mana, he does do an awful lot. He provides a solid amount of value, drawing you cards and getting cards you don't want off the top. He can bounce any creature so you can get value, or counter it on the way back down. His ulti, which is possibly one of the more obtainable ultimates on a walker, is pretty gamewinning in the decks I've played him in.
Sure, if you're staring down a pair of goyfs, hes not the best top deck. Is keranos better? Is chandra better? Probably not. Planeswalkers as cards aren't equipped to deal with several large creatures if they're late to the party. There just aren't really any walkers you can play that effectively deal with situations like that, and most of the walkers that can deal with them are unplayable in other regards.
On empty boards and stalemates, Jace is pretty strong. Decks like blue moon and faeries are both quite capable of getting the game into such a state, and playing a jace to follow up a moon, or a mistbind clique, or some such card is a very powerful play.
Well...Elspeth, Sun's Champion can do it. Her -3 trashes on big creatures, and her +1 clogs the board hard. I also feel like on empty board states and stalemates, Elspeth just outshines most other planeswalkers. Sure, she's 1 mana more expensive, but time and again, she's proven to be solid enough to see play in mainboard and sideboard of UWx decks.
Of course, this is assuming the deck in question is also running white.
If you two are that adamant about him, I might just give him a spin and test him myself. I have a hard time understanding what role he falls under and why he should be played over something like Elspeth, Sun's Champion or Keranos...but I guess it's worth trying before passing final judgment.
In your opinion, why does this one outperform Jace, Architect of Thought? I feel like the Architect's dig ability is better than this new Jace.
I think he outperforms Jace AoT against decks like jund or grixis. (obviously not against tokens and the like). Jace, AoT's dig is good, but it only sees 1 card more than unraveler (potentially), and the difference between +1 and -2 is just huge. You can't repeatedly dig with architect, where as you can with unraveler.
I actually like unraveler along with AV, as you cans scry away later vision draws, and refilling your hand makes it much easier to counter things after you bounce them.
I admit I'm primarily playing him mainboard in moon so I see him more often. I suspect he belongs in the sideboard, but I think I'm quite happy with him there.
I don't think serum and sleight of hand are comparable to jace. If you mean to compare those to AV, I still think the provide different things. Its a treasure cruise vs dig through time kind of thing, but the fact that serum and sleight don't provide actual advantage is pretty big. Being able to dig for a blood moon which can often win on the spot is significant though.
I will keep pushing for now though, against slow-ish decks, jace is very much an "answer this quickly or get buried" similar to cards like Liliana or jtms.
While he is clearly not on their power level, I think hes still got enough going for him.