I don't want to be "that guy", but there's only one Vision in Ancestral Vision. Serum Visions is the one with multiple Visions. I don't normally care about trivialities like these, but SV is already a staple of the format, so please be clear which one you're referring to.
You can find old Extended decklists with AV or Sword here. AV was played in Faeries and Next Level Blue (a UG deck, green because Tarmogoyf is the best beatstick ). Sword was played in Thopter Depths (the "Depths" half is missing, so that's not going to be of much use) and surprisingly NOT Tezzeret. Clearly that could change, since there's the UB Tezzeret and Mox Opal now. Note that Thopter Foundry can be cast with just blue and black mana, so you don't have to splash white if you don't want to. (But I feel that you should anyway for more SB options.) On the AV side, there is Goblin Dark-Dwellers, Bring to Light and Liliana of the Veil, which didn't exist before.
Those decklists also give a good idea of how many copies you should be playing. AV was a 4-of and Thopter/Sword was split 3/2 (note that the Thopter decks had 4 Muddle the Mixture to tutor not just for Thopter/Sword, but Vampire Hexmage as well).
Sword was played in Thopter Depths (the "Depths" half is missing,
Well, not quite. Before ThopterDepths came along, ThopterSword and HexDepths were separate decks that someone eventually had the smart idea of combining into one. Heck, even when ThopterDepths became a thing, ThopterSword (without Depths) was still around. For example, here is a Depth-less ThopterSword deck that got into the Top 4 of a Grand Prix where ThopterDepths was around (as can be seen in some of the other Top 8). Obviously Jace is a no-go nowadays (as are the artifact lands), but Tezzeret would be better in that slot anyway, though you'd have to go UB or into UWB to use him, as the linked deck is UW.
I'm not that much of a modern player, I've been meaning to get into it, sotm being unbanned gives me more reason too. Anyway, take my suggestions with a grain of salt.
I don't think control is the best shell for AV. I think its a midrangey blue deck with some planeswalkers. Something in BUG perhaps. AV gives you a lot of cards for a small mana investment, at the cost of time. So I think its a deck that can be low the ground and stall the ground really well. Goyf, Lilliana, discard, etc.
The biggest problem with BUG as a BGx deck over Abzan or Jund was how did it get ahead in the midrange mirror (other than not having 1 mana removal of course)? Vision is a good way to do that. I think AV works best in a deck that's tapping out every turn, instead of holding up mana.
I wonder if AV could be what brings Bob back. UBx and getting to drop a card advantage spell like Painful Truths which is major life loss into a 0 cmc card.
From the games I've tried so far Grixis is working out nicely. I highly doubt it's the best deck for AV but with all the 1 for 1 discard and removal gassing up with AV flows nicely. I have to imagine the infect and affinity matchups are positive even in game 1. I'm trying kalitas and tribute to hunger to try to have some g1 play against burn. Unfortunately it's difficult to actually test these matches atm since on modo you can only play these decks in free form and everyone is just jamming AV and sword decks and I don't know anyone who I can get to play against me with current modern decks.
Look, there is no "best shell" for AV... Its a utility card. Thats like asking what shell plays bolt the best. Its not a shell card for a engine, its used because its glue. Its just good.
AV will be used by any slower deck that needs card advantage. Just like bolt will be used by any deck that wants to kill creatures and be aggressive sometimes.
As far as Thopter Sword goes. Its good enough to be a tier 2 deck, but probably not good enough to be a tier 1 deck. Its such an easy card to slot into a combo deck that digs to add some built in redunancy, that it could probably be a tier one deck if you can combine it. I'm pretty sure grixis kiki or american kiki could easily use it. 2 combos that attack at different angles seem good.
I'm no combo player, but its one of the reasons why bloom titan was good, same reason why thopter depths was good. Lantern control also uses it well.
I don't want to be "that guy", but there's only one Vision in Ancestral Vision. Serum Visions is the one with multiple Visions. I don't normally care about trivialities like these, but SV is already a staple of the format, so please be clear which one you're referring to.
You can find old Extended decklists with AV or Sword here. AV was played in Faeries and Next Level Blue (a UG deck, green because Tarmogoyf is the best beatstick ). Sword was played in Thopter Depths (the "Depths" half is missing, so that's not going to be of much use) and surprisingly NOT Tezzeret. Clearly that could change, since there's the UB Tezzeret and Mox Opal now. Note that Thopter Foundry can be cast with just blue and black mana, so you don't have to splash white if you don't want to. (But I feel that you should anyway for more SB options.) On the AV side, there is Goblin Dark-Dwellers, Bring to Light and Liliana of the Veil, which didn't exist before.
Those decklists also give a good idea of how many copies you should be playing. AV was a 4-of and Thopter/Sword was split 3/2 (note that the Thopter decks had 4 Muddle the Mixture to tutor not just for Thopter/Sword, but Vampire Hexmage as well).
Right, and to add on this, it was a 4/3 split without it being 2 different combo decks. Assuming you also have around 4-8 cards for drawing power/selection like muddle the mixture or raw draw like thirst for knowledge
I've been itching to try Sultai Midrange/Control with AV, which I think will be a good contender. Bant may also get a bit of a leg up, although it still has its problem of poor removal options. Jeskai of course is super well-positioned to profit off the AV unban, as is Grixis Midrange.
Thopter Sword just has so many possible shells that I don't think anyone has an idea yet. Tezzeret all-in on artifacts has power, consistency, and a tailor-made sideboard (and metagame) honed to artifact-crushing perfection by years of Affinity. Gifts Ungiven is slow but has great redundancy. Or you can just jam the combo into existing UB or UW shells, or give full Esper a shot.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Personally, I don't think Grixis colors are even necessary with Thopter Sword. America Mid-range would work pretty well with the tools available from origins. Aether grid gives a way to use the thopters to do damage even through a stony silence, and cards like Whirler Rogue, and Chandra's parents can also give ways to use artifacts in a versatile fashion. There's also enough ways to clear the field via Declaration in Stone or whipflare, and Path to Exile can work both as a way to clear an opposing threat or fish out more land to accelerate the deck. With infinite thopters it doesn't really matter if we lose any early to clearing the field, and linear aggro strategies will get hurt a lot more by the field clears.
Another option is to go puresteel paladin and use the new Stonehaven Outfitter to boost sword equipped thopters. Each time the sword recurs you get a free card draw. Also can make use of Ensoul Artifact and Shrapnel blast for some extra beats, especially since Uncle Tezz just sky-rocketed in price thanks to hype trains.
White also gives plenty of enchantment hate anyway and if the only hate they got is Stony silence they are probably SoL.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Personally, I don't think Grixis colors are even necessary with Thopter Sword. America Mid-range would work pretty well with the tools available from origins. Aether grid gives a way to use the thopters to do damage even through a stony silence, and cards like Whirler Rogue, and Chandra's parents can also give ways to use artifacts in a versatile fashion. There's also enough ways to clear the field via Declaration in Stone or whipflare, and Path to Exile can work both as a way to clear an opposing threat or fish out more land to accelerate the deck. With infinite thopters it doesn't really matter if we lose any early to clearing the field, and linear aggro strategies will get hurt a lot more by the field clears.
Another option is to go puresteel paladin and use the new Stonehaven Outfitter to boost sword equipped thopters. Each time the sword recurs you get a free card draw. Also can make use of Ensoul Artifact and Shrapnel blast for some extra beats, especially since Uncle Tezz just sky-rocketed in price thanks to hype trains.
White also gives plenty of enchantment hate anyway and if the only hate they got is Stony silence they are probably SoL.
I mean I agree white gives you the best shot at not just dying to a stony silence... You arent making any thopters with stony silence out, so grid isnt help you. With stony out, silence gives you a grand total of 1/2 an activation. And by the time grid is important, you are already winning because the life and the tokens, its not super necessary.
Your other points are valid. I just wanted to point out not to undersell the power of stony silence here. The topter player will need to have 2 cards to win, then at least 1 other card to free up that win, where as the other guy only needs to land one card, then continue doing what they do.
Its got less to do with if they only hate they have is stony silence, they are SoL, its if they land stony silence and you dont have the removal card, you are SoL.
You can find old Extended decklists with AV or Sword here. AV was played in Faeries and Next Level Blue (a UG deck, green because Tarmogoyf is the best beatstick ). Sword was played in Thopter Depths (the "Depths" half is missing, so that's not going to be of much use) and surprisingly NOT Tezzeret. Clearly that could change, since there's the UB Tezzeret and Mox Opal now. Note that Thopter Foundry can be cast with just blue and black mana, so you don't have to splash white if you don't want to. (But I feel that you should anyway for more SB options.) On the AV side, there is Goblin Dark-Dwellers, Bring to Light and Liliana of the Veil, which didn't exist before.
Those decklists also give a good idea of how many copies you should be playing. AV was a 4-of and Thopter/Sword was split 3/2 (note that the Thopter decks had 4 Muddle the Mixture to tutor not just for Thopter/Sword, but Vampire Hexmage as well).
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
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Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Could Ghirapur AEther Grid in a Grixis deck be worth it as a win-con?
About Mindslaver rulings:
The biggest problem with BUG as a BGx deck over Abzan or Jund was how did it get ahead in the midrange mirror (other than not having 1 mana removal of course)? Vision is a good way to do that. I think AV works best in a deck that's tapping out every turn, instead of holding up mana.
AV will be used by any slower deck that needs card advantage. Just like bolt will be used by any deck that wants to kill creatures and be aggressive sometimes.
As far as Thopter Sword goes. Its good enough to be a tier 2 deck, but probably not good enough to be a tier 1 deck. Its such an easy card to slot into a combo deck that digs to add some built in redunancy, that it could probably be a tier one deck if you can combine it. I'm pretty sure grixis kiki or american kiki could easily use it. 2 combos that attack at different angles seem good.
I'm no combo player, but its one of the reasons why bloom titan was good, same reason why thopter depths was good. Lantern control also uses it well.
Right, and to add on this, it was a 4/3 split without it being 2 different combo decks. Assuming you also have around 4-8 cards for drawing power/selection like muddle the mixture or raw draw like thirst for knowledge
Thopter Sword just has so many possible shells that I don't think anyone has an idea yet. Tezzeret all-in on artifacts has power, consistency, and a tailor-made sideboard (and metagame) honed to artifact-crushing perfection by years of Affinity. Gifts Ungiven is slow but has great redundancy. Or you can just jam the combo into existing UB or UW shells, or give full Esper a shot.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Another option is to go puresteel paladin and use the new Stonehaven Outfitter to boost sword equipped thopters. Each time the sword recurs you get a free card draw. Also can make use of Ensoul Artifact and Shrapnel blast for some extra beats, especially since Uncle Tezz just sky-rocketed in price thanks to hype trains.
White also gives plenty of enchantment hate anyway and if the only hate they got is Stony silence they are probably SoL.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I mean I agree white gives you the best shot at not just dying to a stony silence... You arent making any thopters with stony silence out, so grid isnt help you. With stony out, silence gives you a grand total of 1/2 an activation. And by the time grid is important, you are already winning because the life and the tokens, its not super necessary.
Your other points are valid. I just wanted to point out not to undersell the power of stony silence here. The topter player will need to have 2 cards to win, then at least 1 other card to free up that win, where as the other guy only needs to land one card, then continue doing what they do.
Its got less to do with if they only hate they have is stony silence, they are SoL, its if they land stony silence and you dont have the removal card, you are SoL.