That AF "when" vs. "if" argument is absurd. Formats change over time. New cards mean that old strategies need to be regularly re-evaluated in the new context. When PTs expedite bans, they end up creating more bans because the trigger can be (and is) pulled prematurely before a format adapts or a new card comes along.
i really cannot see this happening in practice though, when a deck dominates it's because it's too good, what card could possibly be printed that would keep Twin at more reasonable winrates? they did print targeted hate, Rending Volley is an uncounterable kill exarch spell that can't even be redirected and it did nothing, what else where they supposed to do?
after all who says that the PT only speed ups the ban? imo Bloom ban was decided way earlier in 2015, everyone knew it and everyone was screaming 'BAN IT!', i don't think it's out of place to claim that the PT delayed this ban instead of speeding it up
@Ludafish so what? if anything it's a great surprise that Jund is still up there and that only happened due to a whole combination of factors that include the printing of Kalitas (exactly what the deck needed, almost as if someone wanted to compensate for AV getting unbanned...), the rise of Infect/Zoo,the ban of Bloom etc, the deck has quite a number of BAD mus and i mean REALLY bad not 'twinlike-bad', also it's well known that after all bans folks tend to look for shelter under the safety of BGx and the numbers start decreasing after this, it already dropped a bit it will probably drop a bit more
@prismatic elf why all that pessimism, it's not unavoidable that a deck will become busted and even if it does who says that it's value is going to vanish? remember what the Twin players were saying about Twin for instance and how they lost their money? all was nonsense, all that was lost was some marginal amount from the Twin's themselves, the rest of the deck is seeing lots of Modern play and scalding tarns and snaps are as high as ever, Jund is a perfectly safe investment and imo you shouldn't have sold it if the only reason was a fear of ban, even if a new card does break it, chances are that this new card will get banned, goyf/lotv/ts/manabase and such are perfectly safe
fear of ban wasn't all of the reason I sold of my jund stuff. I didn't like that they keep reprinting Tarmogoyf either. I know that's silly since Goyf is still expensive but how much more would it be if it wasn't getting reprinted every Modern Master set. I still have some pieces of jund like LOTV. It wasn't long ago people were going on and on about banning Inkmoth Nexas that would have destroyed Affinity and Infect decks, it's one of the reason I sold my affinity deck. Beyond Inkmoth most of affinity cards are useless in other decks.
Jund put 10 lists into day 2 (11.9%), 7 of those decks go on to top 32 (21.9%) and 1 in top 8 (12.5%) at the Dallas Open.
Top 32 % is somewhat scary..
Not worth discussing here. It isn't a GP, the T8 % matters more than the other %s, it is only one event, and the GP results showed a much more balanced Jund picture. Honestly, there is nothing worth discussing in this thread right now. The format is great and its few problems need to be solved via reprints and new cards, not bans and unbans.
Then why does this thread exist? The conversion itself was interesting.. by no means was a pointing a finger and screaming "ban Jund"..
Jund put 10 lists into day 2 (11.9%), 7 of those decks go on to top 32 (21.9%) and 1 in top 8 (12.5%) at the Dallas Open.
Top 32 % is somewhat scary..
Not worth discussing here. It isn't a GP, the T8 % matters more than the other %s, it is only one event, and the GP results showed a much more balanced Jund picture. Honestly, there is nothing worth discussing in this thread right now. The format is great and its few problems need to be solved via reprints and new cards, not bans and unbans.
Then why does this thread exist? The conversion itself was interesting.. by no means was a pointing a finger and screaming "ban Jund"..
I definitely respect your opinion. I have read a lot of your comments in the Kiki Chord thread especially.
I think it's worth discussing, but ktkenshinx is one of the "ban thread regulars," having to be the moderator. Some of the comments in the past few weeks have been about Jund not doing so well at many large tournaments. I will admit that even as a hater of Jund ever since Shards of Alara, I even considered at one point that it may need an unbanning of Bloodbraid Elf. That's how much I personally though it was hurting. But to get to your point, the numbers for that tournament are concerning, but it has to be more of a pattern. Pod, Twin, Bloom, Seething Song, and probably more had at least a year, if not more of statistics that pointed toward the deck maybe being too good. (Stuff like Eye of Ugin doesn't need a year because it's silly broken.)
If Jund even had those same stats in 4 of the next large tournaments, then we have a case. But yes, any type of ban conversation is all right. It's just that the regulars have read the same stuff, so they often get very short or terse with people. Sometimes it is just an accident.
Sorry, I shouldn't have written so much. Ktkenshinx is a statistician and I don't believe he puts as much credit with starcitygames Opens as Grands Prix. So, I should have said "at 4 of 5 of the next GPs."
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Infect's turn 2 kills are very rare and they won't happen as long as you run some interaction except if you get unlucky and don't draw it. (removal, counter, discard). Only decks with no or very little interaction folds to Infect but as long as you play some of it you can deal with it. If you don't that's not problem of Infect which shouldn't be banned because if that.
Really? Because I seem to die an awful lot on Turn 2 or Turn 3, despite running 13 pieces of removal, 10 of which are 2 cmc or lower and instant speed. I guess my losing is all just in my head?
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You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Infect's turn 2 kills are very rare and they won't happen as long as you run some interaction except if you get unlucky and don't draw it. (removal, counter, discard). Only decks with no or very little interaction folds to Infect but as long as you play some of it you can deal with it. If you don't that's not problem of Infect which shouldn't be banned because if that.
Really? Because I seem to die an awful lot on Turn 2 or Turn 3, despite running 13 pieces of removal, 10 of which are 2 cmc or lower and instant speed. I guess my losing is all just in my head?
In your head? No. Common enough to qualify as a "consistent" win across the format? Also no. Wizards had a full year of Infect data using Become Immense builds. The deck hasn't changed much since early 2015, and yet the deck has evaded a ban from 2015 until present. The deck is pretty clearly as top-tier as Amulet Bloom, so the only way it could dodge a ban is if it didn't actually win as quickly as Bloom in practice. Given my own experience against the deck and seeing it at events, that's definitely my interpretation. The other option is that Wizards just willfully ignored it in every announcement from 2015 and the two in 2016 so far, but that seems much less likely than the deck just not being a problem.
Moon is not even mildly necessary to punish greedy mana bases in Modern. Aggro decks and burn decks punish them more than moon. Both because modern mana bases pay so much life and because any stumble on colors against fast aggro can lead to death.
Banning infect would not cause an increase in linear decks. Infect is the most prevalent linear deck.
And yes, the vast majority of players like casting their spells. This is why WotC no longer prints strong land destruction nor cards that lock people out of a game like blood moon in standard. Heck, newbies don't even like counters or discard.
Infect's turn 2 kills are very rare and they won't happen as long as you run some interaction except if you get unlucky and don't draw it. (removal, counter, discard). Only decks with no or very little interaction folds to Infect but as long as you play some of it you can deal with it. If you don't that's not problem of Infect which shouldn't be banned because if that.
Really? Because I seem to die an awful lot on Turn 2 or Turn 3, despite running 13 pieces of removal, 10 of which are 2 cmc or lower and instant speed. I guess my losing is all just in my head?
In your head? No. Common enough to qualify as a "consistent" win across the format? Also no. Wizards had a full year of Infect data using Become Immense builds. The deck hasn't changed much since early 2015, and yet the deck has evaded a ban from 2015 until present. The deck is pretty clearly as top-tier as Amulet Bloom, so the only way it could dodge a ban is if it didn't actually win as quickly as Bloom in practice. Given my own experience against the deck and seeing it at events, that's definitely my interpretation. The other option is that Wizards just willfully ignored it in every announcement from 2015 and the two in 2016 so far, but that seems much less likely than the deck just not being a problem.
Considering in my 9 months of piloting Bloom, I killed on Turn 2 exactly 4 times, and in my last three Modern tournaments, I've been killed by Infect on Turn 2 twice, forgive me if I disagree with Infect being less consistent in Turn 4 or earlier kills.
I definitely think there is a level of willful ignorance regarding Infect's early kills. Like everyone here like to say, the deck keeps linear decks in check. The deck also gets weaker as the game goes on. Therefore, Wizards does not hold it to the same standards they held Bloom, since Bloom's strength continued into the mid game. What may have been an 7-9% early kill rate for Bloom is unacceptable, but a similar rate is fine for Infect.
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You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
That AF "when" vs. "if" argument is absurd. Formats change over time. New cards mean that old strategies need to be regularly re-evaluated in the new context. When PTs expedite bans, they end up creating more bans because the trigger can be (and is) pulled prematurely before a format adapts or a new card comes along.
i really cannot see this happening in practice though, when a deck dominates it's because it's too good, what card could possibly be printed that would keep Twin at more reasonable winrates? they did print targeted hate, Rending Volley is an uncounterable kill exarch spell that can't even be redirected and it did nothing, what else where they supposed to do?
I guess it depends on how you define "dominating" and "too good." Even though many people have retroactively made up their minds, compared to all the previous decks in the format banned for similar dominance reasons, Twin was significantly lower in just about every measurable metric, not to mention how close it was in numbers to the next best decks (meaning it wasn't drastically or oppressively more powerful than the next best decks), and throughout the year, it was on the decline in popularity. Borderline case and judgement call accelerated by the Pro Tour; that seems pretty clear.
now it does not become pretty clear to NON-BIASED observer, it becomes pretty clear to biased observer who give extensive significance to some metrics and prefer to downplay others
Which metrics do you prefer? I was simply referencing the Modern Nexus article, no need to hate the messenger.
if Twin was legal now would it be the best Modern deck? absolutely, in fact it might as well be even better than it was before with AV and enough with the 'av is bad rhetoric' this card is legal for such a short time and already has multiple appearances in both GP and SCG top8s, AV is good anyone who claims otherwise is either ignorant or in purpose downplays the color blue to promote blue related unbans
Maybe, maybe not. In order to fit in AV, you would either have to cut protection spells, cut serum visions, cut combo pieces, or cut removal spells. Any way you go you're giving up something vital to the deck. It was an extremely tight list, and finding 4 slots is not easy, even if the deck wants it. The sideboard is also very tight and 4 slots is a lot to make room for. Also, I think it would be fascinating to see how Twin would match up against the current blue decks. Twin has always had horrible matchups against blue control decks that play more removal, more counterspells, more disruption, and more manlands. Would be interesting to see for sure.
Infect's turn 2 kills are very rare and they won't happen as long as you run some interaction except if you get unlucky and don't draw it. (removal, counter, discard). Only decks with no or very little interaction folds to Infect but as long as you play some of it you can deal with it. If you don't that's not problem of Infect which shouldn't be banned because if that.
Really? Because I seem to die an awful lot on Turn 2 or Turn 3, despite running 13 pieces of removal, 10 of which are 2 cmc or lower and instant speed. I guess my losing is all just in my head?
In your head? No. Common enough to qualify as a "consistent" win across the format? Also no. Wizards had a full year of Infect data using Become Immense builds. The deck hasn't changed much since early 2015, and yet the deck has evaded a ban from 2015 until present. The deck is pretty clearly as top-tier as Amulet Bloom, so the only way it could dodge a ban is if it didn't actually win as quickly as Bloom in practice. Given my own experience against the deck and seeing it at events, that's definitely my interpretation. The other option is that Wizards just willfully ignored it in every announcement from 2015 and the two in 2016 so far, but that seems much less likely than the deck just not being a problem.
Considering in my 9 months of piloting Bloom, I killed on Turn 2 exactly 4 times, and in my last three Modern tournaments, I've been killed by Infect on Turn 2 twice, forgive me if I disagree with Infect being less consistent in Turn 4 or earlier kills.
I definitely think there is a level of willful ignorance regarding Infect's early kills. Like everyone here like to say, the deck keeps linear decks in check. The deck also gets weaker as the game goes on. Therefore, Wizards does not hold it to the same standards they held Bloom, since Bloom's strength continued into the mid game. What may have been an 7-9% early kill rate for Bloom is unacceptable, but a similar rate is fine for Infect.
And yet I've had the opposite experience as you. Killed before Turn 4 (that's the real test) MANY times by Bloom but never once killed by Infect before Turn 5. Should we ignore everything else and just take my data or your data as the reality of the situation? Or is the reality actually somewhere between our two opposite experiences?
It's also indisputable that Infect's means of winning before Turn 4 can be interacted with more easily and by more decks than Bloom's means of winning before Turn 4.
you're just too biased to offer anything meaningful in the discussion regarding Twin
If you think that, rather than reading what I actually type and discussing the points directly, feel free to put me on ignore. It clearly bothers you whenever I bring it up, whether the arguments are valid or not.
Considering in my 9 months of piloting Bloom, I killed on Turn 2 exactly 4 times, and in my last three Modern tournaments, I've been killed by Infect on Turn 2 twice, forgive me if I disagree with Infect being less consistent in Turn 4 or earlier kills.
I definitely think there is a level of willful ignorance regarding Infect's early kills. Like everyone here like to say, the deck keeps linear decks in check. The deck also gets weaker as the game goes on. Therefore, Wizards does not hold it to the same standards they held Bloom, since Bloom's strength continued into the mid game. What may have been an 7-9% early kill rate for Bloom is unacceptable, but a similar rate is fine for Infect.
You know that I agree with you most of the time and we both like similar decks, but I have to know how often you played the deck? Because if you played just 4 times per month (FNM), that's 36 odd times in 9 months and that number seems too low. For reference only, I played the deck in tournament play just 5 (4-6 round tournaments) and I won on turn 2 SIX times. I did play 3 Hive Mind and I know most decks run only 2 though. I think that the number you gave was extremely poor luck or understated. Or maybe you had a meta with a high amount of Twin/Infect/Affinity? Because the deck literally stomped decks like Burn, Tron, Jund, and most rogue decks (not Lantern Control though ).
The numbers you gave for Infect is pretty close to what I see, but I don't have much interaction myself, if any.
*I should say that I did also test with Bloom Titan for around a year and a half occasionally at home and my "turn 2 luck" was worse than what I had in those tournaments. So I honestly think the average number is somewhere between.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I always love the ban talk after a big tournament.
A deck that did good needs to be banned and the sky comes crushing down. I bet that if Burn owns a tournament again Lightning Bolt needs to be banned.
Chill out guys and girls, it's a game have fun and relax.
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Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
Chill out guys and girls, it's a game have fun and relax.
Honestly, I've just been playing more Commander lately. I still play Modern Mondays with whatever I have put together at the time, but competitive Modern has fallen heavily in my list of priorities. With as good as things are now, it's still matchup roulette and sideboard roulette. It's just a better use of my time to have beers with friends and make stupid crazy plays than stress about being hyper competitive nowadays.
Chill out guys and girls, it's a game have fun and relax.
Honestly, I've just been playing more Commander lately. I still play Modern Mondays with whatever I have put together at the time, but competitive Modern has fallen heavily in my list of priorities. With as good as things are now, it's still matchup roulette and sideboard roulette. It's just a better use of my time to have beers with friends and make stupid crazy plays than stress about being hyper competitive nowadays.
We all grow up some day and play more for the fun of the game. It take some longer than others.
Infect's turn 2 kills are very rare and they won't happen as long as you run some interaction except if you get unlucky and don't draw it. (removal, counter, discard). Only decks with no or very little interaction folds to Infect but as long as you play some of it you can deal with it. If you don't that's not problem of Infect which shouldn't be banned because if that.
Really? Because I seem to die an awful lot on Turn 2 or Turn 3, despite running 13 pieces of removal, 10 of which are 2 cmc or lower and instant speed. I guess my losing is all just in my head?
If you're doing nothing then it will kill you so fast but as long as you have removal you should be able to prevent that unless he has perfect draws. I play Jund and have good record against it which makes sense since Jund has good matchup against Infect but games are close although you should win big majority of them if you play correct and are not too unlucky. It depends on the interaction you play however since it's not always enough to play it. Junk for example also plays plenty of removal but it has bad mu against Infect. As long as you play Lightning Bolt and don't get unlucky with your draws you should have good time against Infect.
I play MartyrProc, so that means 4 Path, 4 Orzhov Charm and 2 Devour Flesh, along with 3 Wrath of God. All of my losses came Game 1, when I didn't pull a Path.
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You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Infect's turn 2 kills are very rare and they won't happen as long as you run some interaction except if you get unlucky and don't draw it. (removal, counter, discard). Only decks with no or very little interaction folds to Infect but as long as you play some of it you can deal with it. If you don't that's not problem of Infect which shouldn't be banned because if that.
Really? Because I seem to die an awful lot on Turn 2 or Turn 3, despite running 13 pieces of removal, 10 of which are 2 cmc or lower and instant speed. I guess my losing is all just in my head?
If you're doing nothing then it will kill you so fast but as long as you have removal you should be able to prevent that unless he has perfect draws. I play Jund and have good record against it which makes sense since Jund has good matchup against Infect but games are close although you should win big majority of them if you play correct and are not too unlucky. It depends on the interaction you play however since it's not always enough to play it. Junk for example also plays plenty of removal but it has bad mu against Infect. As long as you play Lightning Bolt and don't get unlucky with your draws you should have good time against Infect.
I play MartyrProc, so that means 4 Path, 4 Orzhov Charm and 2 Devour Flesh, along with 3 Wrath of God. All of my losses came Game 1, when I didn't pull a Path.
Why is preordain banned in a format with reliable turn three kill decks?
There are currently no "reliable" turn three decks that are also top-tier. The closest is Infect which, despite having some fast lines, ia evidently neither fast nor consistently fast enough to warrant banning.
Does Chrome Mox have any chance of coming off the banlist?
Nope. Permanent fast mana that any deck can play is not something they want to have around. Do you want turn 2 bloodmoons everywhere? Because that's how you get turn 2 blood moons everywhere.
Does Chrome Mox have any chance of coming off the banlist?
Nope. Permanent fast mana that any deck can play is not something they want to have around. Do you want turn 2 bloodmoons everywhere? Because that's how you get turn 2 blood moons everywhere.
To be fair, Blood Moon is already played in a few decks that can play it on turn 2, like Storm, Grishoalbrand, and Affinity. Blood Moon on turn 3 seems too slow.
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Modern RGTron UGInfect URStorm WUBRAd Nauseam BRGrishoalbrand URGScapeshift WBGAbzan Company WUBRGAmulet Titan BRGLiving End WGBogles
I don't think griselbrand decks would play it... could be wrong though. Some versions use Pentad Prism, so I could see a swap there, but for the most part Mox takes away the "win at instant speed" appeal of the Shoal build (SSG is necessary for this). I can't really comment on Storm or Ad Naus, but you would have to cut cards somewhere and every combo deck in the format requires a density of filtering and enablers to function.
edit: It would unnecessarily speed up the whole format though w/ a few archetypes having the potential to become much stronger. I would argue that it isn't worth the risk.
Does Chrome Mox have any chance of coming off the banlist?
Nope. Permanent fast mana that any deck can play is not something they want to have around. Do you want turn 2 bloodmoons everywhere? Because that's how you get turn 2 blood moons everywhere.
I know a deck that can consistently do turn 2 Blood Moon. It is a Mono Red hate deck with 4 Simian Spirit Guide, 4 Desperate Ritual, 4 Wild Cantor, and 3 Pyretic Ritual. I've even done it turn 1 a few times. It got 15th place at the SCG Classic that I top 4ed and I talked to the guy a bunch before trying it at a tournament. Very fun deck for people that like old school Magic. I even dreamed of a meta with Tron/Bloom/Jund, so I could dominate (I did 3-1 a Sat. Magic and 2-1 a TNM).
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
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Then why does this thread exist? The conversion itself was interesting.. by no means was a pointing a finger and screaming "ban Jund"..
I definitely respect your opinion. I have read a lot of your comments in the Kiki Chord thread especially.
I think it's worth discussing, but ktkenshinx is one of the "ban thread regulars," having to be the moderator. Some of the comments in the past few weeks have been about Jund not doing so well at many large tournaments. I will admit that even as a hater of Jund ever since Shards of Alara, I even considered at one point that it may need an unbanning of Bloodbraid Elf. That's how much I personally though it was hurting. But to get to your point, the numbers for that tournament are concerning, but it has to be more of a pattern. Pod, Twin, Bloom, Seething Song, and probably more had at least a year, if not more of statistics that pointed toward the deck maybe being too good. (Stuff like Eye of Ugin doesn't need a year because it's silly broken.)
If Jund even had those same stats in 4 of the next large tournaments, then we have a case. But yes, any type of ban conversation is all right. It's just that the regulars have read the same stuff, so they often get very short or terse with people. Sometimes it is just an accident.
Sorry, I shouldn't have written so much. Ktkenshinx is a statistician and I don't believe he puts as much credit with starcitygames Opens as Grands Prix. So, I should have said "at 4 of 5 of the next GPs."
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
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Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Really? Because I seem to die an awful lot on Turn 2 or Turn 3, despite running 13 pieces of removal, 10 of which are 2 cmc or lower and instant speed. I guess my losing is all just in my head?
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
In your head? No. Common enough to qualify as a "consistent" win across the format? Also no. Wizards had a full year of Infect data using Become Immense builds. The deck hasn't changed much since early 2015, and yet the deck has evaded a ban from 2015 until present. The deck is pretty clearly as top-tier as Amulet Bloom, so the only way it could dodge a ban is if it didn't actually win as quickly as Bloom in practice. Given my own experience against the deck and seeing it at events, that's definitely my interpretation. The other option is that Wizards just willfully ignored it in every announcement from 2015 and the two in 2016 so far, but that seems much less likely than the deck just not being a problem.
Banning infect would not cause an increase in linear decks. Infect is the most prevalent linear deck.
And yes, the vast majority of players like casting their spells. This is why WotC no longer prints strong land destruction nor cards that lock people out of a game like blood moon in standard. Heck, newbies don't even like counters or discard.
Considering in my 9 months of piloting Bloom, I killed on Turn 2 exactly 4 times, and in my last three Modern tournaments, I've been killed by Infect on Turn 2 twice, forgive me if I disagree with Infect being less consistent in Turn 4 or earlier kills.
I definitely think there is a level of willful ignorance regarding Infect's early kills. Like everyone here like to say, the deck keeps linear decks in check. The deck also gets weaker as the game goes on. Therefore, Wizards does not hold it to the same standards they held Bloom, since Bloom's strength continued into the mid game. What may have been an 7-9% early kill rate for Bloom is unacceptable, but a similar rate is fine for Infect.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Which metrics do you prefer? I was simply referencing the Modern Nexus article, no need to hate the messenger.
Maybe, maybe not. In order to fit in AV, you would either have to cut protection spells, cut serum visions, cut combo pieces, or cut removal spells. Any way you go you're giving up something vital to the deck. It was an extremely tight list, and finding 4 slots is not easy, even if the deck wants it. The sideboard is also very tight and 4 slots is a lot to make room for. Also, I think it would be fascinating to see how Twin would match up against the current blue decks. Twin has always had horrible matchups against blue control decks that play more removal, more counterspells, more disruption, and more manlands. Would be interesting to see for sure.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
It's also indisputable that Infect's means of winning before Turn 4 can be interacted with more easily and by more decks than Bloom's means of winning before Turn 4.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
You know that I agree with you most of the time and we both like similar decks, but I have to know how often you played the deck? Because if you played just 4 times per month (FNM), that's 36 odd times in 9 months and that number seems too low. For reference only, I played the deck in tournament play just 5 (4-6 round tournaments) and I won on turn 2 SIX times. I did play 3 Hive Mind and I know most decks run only 2 though. I think that the number you gave was extremely poor luck or understated. Or maybe you had a meta with a high amount of Twin/Infect/Affinity? Because the deck literally stomped decks like Burn, Tron, Jund, and most rogue decks (not Lantern Control though
The numbers you gave for Infect is pretty close to what I see, but I don't have much interaction myself, if any.
*I should say that I did also test with Bloom Titan for around a year and a half occasionally at home and my "turn 2 luck" was worse than what I had in those tournaments. So I honestly think the average number is somewhere between.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)A deck that did good needs to be banned and the sky comes crushing down. I bet that if Burn owns a tournament again Lightning Bolt needs to be banned.
Chill out guys and girls, it's a game have fun and relax.
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
Honestly, I've just been playing more Commander lately. I still play Modern Mondays with whatever I have put together at the time, but competitive Modern has fallen heavily in my list of priorities. With as good as things are now, it's still matchup roulette and sideboard roulette. It's just a better use of my time to have beers with friends and make stupid crazy plays than stress about being hyper competitive nowadays.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
We all grow up some day and play more for the fun of the game. It take some longer than others.
I play MartyrProc, so that means 4 Path, 4 Orzhov Charm and 2 Devour Flesh, along with 3 Wrath of God. All of my losses came Game 1, when I didn't pull a Path.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Tribal Zoo video series
There are currently no "reliable" turn three decks that are also top-tier. The closest is Infect which, despite having some fast lines, ia evidently neither fast nor consistently fast enough to warrant banning.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Nope. Permanent fast mana that any deck can play is not something they want to have around. Do you want turn 2 bloodmoons everywhere? Because that's how you get turn 2 blood moons everywhere.
Turn 1 with SSG! Awesome!
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
0 chance. The problem is not blood moon, the problem is combo decks, imagine storm, ad nauseum, griselbrand, etc a turn earlier.
edit: It would unnecessarily speed up the whole format though w/ a few archetypes having the potential to become much stronger. I would argue that it isn't worth the risk.
I know a deck that can consistently do turn 2 Blood Moon.
http://modernnexus.com/bloody-humans-15th-at-scg-vegas/
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)