Uhh what the hell do you mean "Low prevalence" according to MTGgoldfish it is 6% of the metagame. The third most event placing deck in the format. If that is low prevalence then we should probably just avoid discussing everything that isn't Jund or infect. Suicide Zoo isn't inconsistent unless you think you know more about magic than Sam Black who has stated Suicide Zoo is pretty consistent and felt strongly enough about it to play it in a GP and top 8. Not to mention this was just a month/two months ago.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
Now i know the deck has not put up any high level results lately, so im not calling for a ban atm, but has anyone else noticed the extreme success of suicide zoo on modo lately? What's up with that
MTGO has a LOT of fast and linear decks. Suicide Zoo is one of them, but it's super inconsistent which is why it can't translate its sporadic MTGO success into paper success at any appreciable level. In my experience, it's faster than Infect but significantly less consistent. Given its low prevalence and inconsistencies, there's no reason to discuss it in the thread.
I believe myself to be far from one to be spouting out ban mania. I am aware that modo meta has all sorts of weirdness, i play modo enough to realize that. However, we are talking about a quantity of weirdness that has landed suicide zoo as the 3rd most played deck in modern on mtggoldfish. Yes, im aware goldfish isnt the best example of the meta, but all those other "super fast decks" arent even in the top ten. Figured this crazy anomaly, along with the rather extreme quantity of 5-0's this deck has thrown up in the last week or two, is enough to wsrrant at least discussion of the deck, not going so far as to cry for bans at this point in time obviously
IMO Suicide Zoo is a very difficult, or at least very unintuitive, deck to play. There are a lot of ways you can screw up, like fetching the wrong lands and color screwing yourself, making the wrong choice between cashing in a Bauble to "scry" vs holding it for Swiftspear, and cracking fetches to thin vs saving them for Steppe Lynx (ok, if you play Infect you probably won't get the last one wrong because it has Groundswell, which is similar).
In this article Magnus Lantto gives a bunch of practice hands and I got every one which had a Swiftspear in it wrong. I would have played Swiftspear first, because it's the obvious thing to do: it has haste, so getting it out on turn 1 is 1 free damage, and if you have Baubles or Probes in hand you can use them to pump Swftspear and get in even more damage. Turns out that for the Thoughtseize hand, not color screwing yourself is more important, and for the Bauble+Probe hand, scry is more important (Sam Black also mentions this in his article).
I know that someone is probably going to say "but Amulet is also an unintuitive deck to play", so I'll pre-empt that by offering my counterargument now: Amulet played with different cards from the rest of the format. No other deck had Amulet, Bloom, or bouncelands in it, so you could just learn Amulet as this self-contained deck with its own unique, weird cards, without affecting the way you played other decks. Suicide Zoo, on the other hand, plays things like Swiftspear, Probe and fetchlands, and how you use those cards in Suicide Zoo is completely different from how you would use them in more "normal" decks. You have to break yourself away from your usual fetchland/Probe/etc habits (e.g. fetching immediately, or fetching for tapped shocks) to master Suicide Zoo.
On a less serious note, this is a deck which uses Wild Nacatl, a card which was previously banned. I don't think this is what many of us had in mind when they unbanned Nacatl in order to boost Zoo...
Uhh what the hell do you mean "Low prevalence" according to MTGgoldfish it is 6% of the metagame. The third most event placing deck in the format. If that is low prevalence then we should probably just avoid discussing everything that isn't Jund or infect. Suicide Zoo isn't inconsistent unless you think you know more about magic than Sam Black who has stated Suicide Zoo is pretty consistent and felt strongly enough about it to play it in a GP and top 8. Not to mention this was just a month/two months ago.
The Sam Black/Mike Sigrist match in top 8 is a pretty good indicator of just how "consistent" this deck is. Sadly not many saw the match due to the lack of video coverage, but it was no contest simply due to the hands that Black ended up having. Mull to 5 and then keeping no creatures in game 1, and game 2 keeping 7 with 3 cyclers but no lands ended up with Sigrist running him over very quickly.
Yes, the deck can be very aggressive. No, the deck is not ban worthy.
Uhh what the hell do you mean "Low prevalence" according to MTGgoldfish it is 6% of the metagame. The third most event placing deck in the format. If that is low prevalence then we should probably just avoid discussing everything that isn't Jund or infect. Suicide Zoo isn't inconsistent unless you think you know more about magic than Sam Black who has stated Suicide Zoo is pretty consistent and felt strongly enough about it to play it in a GP and top 8. Not to mention this was just a month/two months ago.
The Sam Black/Mike Sigrist match in top 8 is a pretty good indicator of just how "consistent" this deck is. Sadly not many saw the match due to the lack of video coverage, but it was no contest simply due to the hands that Black ended up having. Mull to 5 and then keeping no creatures in game 1, and game 2 keeping 7 with 3 cyclers but no lands ended up with Sigrist running him over very quickly.
Yes, the deck can be very aggressive. No, the deck is not ban worthy.
I agree that the deck isn't banworthy, but singling out 1 match in which variance struck doesn't make a comprehensive case that the deck is inherently inconsistent. If that was a representative match for the deck then Sam Black never should have made it to Top 8 in the first place.
I didn't want to bring this up before because it opens up a whole can of worms to debate, but the deck is pretty tough to play. The deck is creature based, so it's impossible to burn your opponent out. You have to balance out how much damage you are going to do or CAN do to yourself with what your opponent can do to you. Just like regular Zoo, you have to be even more careful with your fetches. You also have to know when to "protect the queen" and when to let some creatures die to removal so that the larger Death's Shadow can get there. Maybe I'm biased because Aggro is the toughest archetype for me personally to play, but it is a tough deck to pilot "correctly."
I just hope this doesn't bring up the "people didn't play the BEST hands down Modern deck because it was tough to play" theory because I don't buy into that theory at all. It's usually better to play the best deck slightly suboptimally than play a crappy deck perfectly unless the differences are so small, your play skill makes up for the difference (rare case).
*Just as an example, lesser Suicide Zoo players can't beat Burn. The better players do much better against a seemingly tough matchup in Burn.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Well, time snuck up on me, and it looks like the next banning announcement is in two weeks! Although general consensus does seem to favor no changes, might as well keep the poll going as is tradition. Any suggestions on cards to list for the "what do you want banned?" list? They don't have to be cards that have any real chance of getting banned, just cards that there's at least a reasonable chance of people voting for wanting banned.
If you have suggestions, please list the cards rather than a vague "something from such and such deck." List the specific card(s).
Well, time snuck up on me, and it looks like the next banning announcement is in two weeks! Although general consensus does seem to favor no changes, might as well keep the poll going as is tradition. Any suggestions on cards to list for the "what do you want banned?" list? They don't have to be cards that have any real chance of getting banned, just cards that there's at least a reasonable chance of people voting for wanting banned.
If you have suggestions, please list the cards rather than a vague "something from such and such deck." List the specific card(s).
Ensnaring Bridge on the Banlist? Why? I mean, I do get Blood Moon, it's a Modern staple, if you believe staple exists as a term, and it can easily steal games and it can be casted on turn 2.
But Bridge? Come on... I fully disagree.
Eh, personally I think that nothing should be banned or unbanned. I was just thinking about the cards that people complain about most frequently. Bridge seems to make the game "unfun" for some people just like Blood Moon.
Ensnaring Bridge on the Banlist? Why? I mean, I do get Blood Moon, it's a Modern staple, if you believe staple exists as a term, and it can easily steal games and it can be casted on turn 2.
But Bridge? Come on... I fully disagree.
Eh, personally I think that nothing should be banned or unbanned. I was just thinking about the cards that people complain about most frequently. Bridge seems to make the game "unfun" for some people just like Blood Moon.
Ok, maybe it's a suggestion. Problem is this card does not have a home. But every red based deck can play Blood Moon and steal games.
Isn't it one of the primary pieces in Lantern Control? I know that deck doesn't have a high meta%, but the 'unfun' factor easily trumps that for some people. It's also used in some RW Prison builds.
I would vote for no changes, no bans and no unbans are needed at the moment.
this, nothing need a ban right now and things that could be unbanned are fit for tier 1 decks (green sun zenith abzan company and jace in nahiri control).
Unban Treasure Cruise and Dig through time with Splinter Twin ban it should be ok again. There's no reason to ban Blood Moon there are answers for every color not to mention you can run more basic lands in your deck. Ensnaring bridge is another card with a ton of answers for every color , no need to ban this either. The only card that might get the axe is Inkmoth Nexus.
Unban Treasure Cruise and Dig through time with Splinter Twin ban it should be ok again. There's no reason to ban Blood Moon there are answers for every color not to mention you can run more basic lands in your deck. Ensnaring bridge is another card with a ton of answers for every color , no need to ban this either. The only card that might get the axe is Inkmoth Nexus.
The deck WOTC referenced when banning TC and DTT was Delver, not Twin. I don't think there's a possibility whatsoever for these to come off the list. They've been banned or restricted in every constructed format except Standard.
Well, time snuck up on me, and it looks like the next banning announcement is in two weeks! Although general consensus does seem to favor no changes, might as well keep the poll going as is tradition. Any suggestions on cards to list for the "what do you want banned?" list? They don't have to be cards that have any real chance of getting banned, just cards that there's at least a reasonable chance of people voting for wanting banned.
If you have suggestions, please list the cards rather than a vague "something from such and such deck." List the specific card(s).
Well, discussing possible unbans (for the purpose of the poll) is unnecessary, because the goal is to try to figure out what cards to list in the poll. For an unbanning poll, it's easy: List every card that's banned. No need for any discussion. Listing potential bannings is what needs to be determined because for obvious reasons it's not possible to list every single card legal in the format.
I don't think I've seen anyone besides Craig Wescoe nominate Inkmoth Nexus. The cards people point to in regards to Infect seem to always be Become Immense and/or Mutagenic Growth, and sometimes Glistener Elf (oddly, I don't recall seeing Blighted Agent even though it's the hardest of the Infect creatures to interact with).
Anyway, so it looks like we'd probably want this for now:
Become Immense
Blood Moon
Cranial Plating
Ensnaring Bridge
Goryo's Vengeance
Mox Opal
Mutagenic Growth
Simian Spirit Guide
I've taken some of the suggestions given in this topic and also added anything that got 5% or more in the previous poll (unless something has happened to dramatically change the validity of such a banning--sure, Eldrazi Temple got 50.9%, but Eye of Ugin's banning made that a bit moot).
Any other suggestions from anyone to include in the poll? It doesn't have to be something you yourself want banned, just something you've seen a number of people suggest.
Anything being banned right now would be very unwelcoming. Nothing will be banned or unbanned. I think the printing of Eldritch Evolution is Wizards continual attempt to show that Birthing Pod was not okay, which makes me sad. First we had Collected Company, which was the final nail in the coffin for Pod, and now this?
Preordain? Although nothing should change, I would personally LOOOOVE to see this card back.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Anything being banned right now would be very unwelcoming. Nothing will be banned or unbanned. I think the printing of Eldritch Evolution is Wizards continual attempt to show that Birthing Pod was not okay, which makes me sad. First we had Collected Company, which was the final nail in the coffin for Pod, and now this?
Preordain? Although nothing should change, I would personally LOOOOVE to see this card back.
Preordain would be ok to unbann most true combo decks have been neutered to the point were cards like Preordain wouldn't matter, probably safe to unbann. Speed mana is what breaks combo not filter cards.
Anything being banned right now would be very unwelcoming. Nothing will be banned or unbanned. I think the printing of Eldritch Evolution is Wizards continual attempt to show that Birthing Pod was not okay, which makes me sad. First we had Collected Company, which was the final nail in the coffin for Pod, and now this?
Preordain? Although nothing should change, I would personally LOOOOVE to see this card back.
Preordain would be ok to unbann most true combo decks have been neutered to the point were cards like Preordain wouldn't matter, probably safe to unbann. Speed mana is what breaks combo not filter cards.
Filter cards make the deck more consistent. Seeing as how many people want Grishoalbrand banned now, would hate to see something to accelerate those thoughts, it being my favorite deck.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Anything being banned right now would be very unwelcoming. Nothing will be banned or unbanned. I think the printing of Eldritch Evolution is Wizards continual attempt to show that Birthing Pod was not okay, which makes me sad. First we had Collected Company, which was the final nail in the coffin for Pod, and now this?
Preordain? Although nothing should change, I would personally LOOOOVE to see this card back.
Preordain would be ok to unbann most true combo decks have been neutered to the point were cards like Preordain wouldn't matter, probably safe to unbann. Speed mana is what breaks combo not filter cards.
Filter cards make the deck more consis
I'm ok with combo being consistent but not with turn 2-3 kills which is what speed mana does.
just for novelty's sake i think Mutagenic Growth is worth considering IF sometime in the future wotc would want to ban something from infect (ofc my personal opinion is that we need at least a couple of 'no changes' anoucnements'
I wouldn't want to see it banned but if something has to go in infect this is it, the deck would still be a viable deck with out it.
As much as I like Stoneforge Mystic it's really not a card that needs to be introduced into the modern metagame now. I can't imagine it being healthy for the format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
As much as I like Stoneforge Mystic it's really not a card that needs to be introduced into the modern metagame now. I can't imagine it being healthy for the format.
I agree, it would turn the format into every deck that plays white jamming 4 mystics and a couple equipments into the deck, or splashing white to do the same thing. For the record I love Stoneforge and would love to play it in modern but also don't think it would be healthy for the format.
Midrange Abzan sure would be fun though and it might allow for some Legacy light Esper and UWR blade lists which are some of my favorite in legacy.
As much as I like Stoneforge Mystic it's really not a card that needs to be introduced into the modern metagame now. I can't imagine it being healthy for the format.
I agree, it would turn the format into every deck that plays white jamming 4 mystics and a couple equipments into the deck, or splashing white to do the same thing. For the record I love Stoneforge and would love to play it in modern but also don't think it would be healthy for the format.
Midrange Abzan sure would be fun though and it might allow for some Legacy light Esper and UWR blade lists which are some of my favorite in legacy.
I think the card deserves its chance. There is no FoW of Daze backup to protect Stoneforge or Batterskull when you tap out for it. KCommand does work against the card as well. Most importantly, Jitte is banned. As long as Jitte is banned I believe Stoneforge is safer than most people believe - but I do agree it's the ceiling of power level a card can have in the format.
But I understand the skepticism, so I'd be satisfied with BBE and Preordain.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I believe myself to be far from one to be spouting out ban mania. I am aware that modo meta has all sorts of weirdness, i play modo enough to realize that. However, we are talking about a quantity of weirdness that has landed suicide zoo as the 3rd most played deck in modern on mtggoldfish. Yes, im aware goldfish isnt the best example of the meta, but all those other "super fast decks" arent even in the top ten. Figured this crazy anomaly, along with the rather extreme quantity of 5-0's this deck has thrown up in the last week or two, is enough to wsrrant at least discussion of the deck, not going so far as to cry for bans at this point in time obviously
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
In this article Magnus Lantto gives a bunch of practice hands and I got every one which had a Swiftspear in it wrong. I would have played Swiftspear first, because it's the obvious thing to do: it has haste, so getting it out on turn 1 is 1 free damage, and if you have Baubles or Probes in hand you can use them to pump Swftspear and get in even more damage. Turns out that for the Thoughtseize hand, not color screwing yourself is more important, and for the Bauble+Probe hand, scry is more important (Sam Black also mentions this in his article).
I know that someone is probably going to say "but Amulet is also an unintuitive deck to play", so I'll pre-empt that by offering my counterargument now: Amulet played with different cards from the rest of the format. No other deck had Amulet, Bloom, or bouncelands in it, so you could just learn Amulet as this self-contained deck with its own unique, weird cards, without affecting the way you played other decks. Suicide Zoo, on the other hand, plays things like Swiftspear, Probe and fetchlands, and how you use those cards in Suicide Zoo is completely different from how you would use them in more "normal" decks. You have to break yourself away from your usual fetchland/Probe/etc habits (e.g. fetching immediately, or fetching for tapped shocks) to master Suicide Zoo.
On a less serious note, this is a deck which uses Wild Nacatl, a card which was previously banned. I don't think this is what many of us had in mind when they unbanned Nacatl in order to boost Zoo...
(P.S. Suicide Zoo is a Zoo deck in name only.)
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
The Sam Black/Mike Sigrist match in top 8 is a pretty good indicator of just how "consistent" this deck is. Sadly not many saw the match due to the lack of video coverage, but it was no contest simply due to the hands that Black ended up having. Mull to 5 and then keeping no creatures in game 1, and game 2 keeping 7 with 3 cyclers but no lands ended up with Sigrist running him over very quickly.
Yes, the deck can be very aggressive. No, the deck is not ban worthy.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I just hope this doesn't bring up the "people didn't play the BEST hands down Modern deck because it was tough to play" theory because I don't buy into that theory at all. It's usually better to play the best deck slightly suboptimally than play a crappy deck perfectly unless the differences are so small, your play skill makes up for the difference (rare case).
*Just as an example, lesser Suicide Zoo players can't beat Burn. The better players do much better against a seemingly tough matchup in Burn.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)If you have suggestions, please list the cards rather than a vague "something from such and such deck." List the specific card(s).
Bans:
Become Immense
Blood Moon
Ensnaring Bridge
Simian Spirit Guide
Unbans:
Bloodbraid Elf
Stoneforge Mystic
Preordain
Splinter Twin
You know, the usual.
Eh, personally I think that nothing should be banned or unbanned. I was just thinking about the cards that people complain about most frequently. Bridge seems to make the game "unfun" for some people just like Blood Moon.
Isn't it one of the primary pieces in Lantern Control? I know that deck doesn't have a high meta%, but the 'unfun' factor easily trumps that for some people. It's also used in some RW Prison builds.
this, nothing need a ban right now and things that could be unbanned are fit for tier 1 decks (green sun zenith abzan company and jace in nahiri control).
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I don't think I've seen anyone besides Craig Wescoe nominate Inkmoth Nexus. The cards people point to in regards to Infect seem to always be Become Immense and/or Mutagenic Growth, and sometimes Glistener Elf (oddly, I don't recall seeing Blighted Agent even though it's the hardest of the Infect creatures to interact with).
Anyway, so it looks like we'd probably want this for now:
Become Immense
Blood Moon
Cranial Plating
Ensnaring Bridge
Goryo's Vengeance
Mox Opal
Mutagenic Growth
Simian Spirit Guide
I've taken some of the suggestions given in this topic and also added anything that got 5% or more in the previous poll (unless something has happened to dramatically change the validity of such a banning--sure, Eldrazi Temple got 50.9%, but Eye of Ugin's banning made that a bit moot).
Any other suggestions from anyone to include in the poll? It doesn't have to be something you yourself want banned, just something you've seen a number of people suggest.
Preordain? Although nothing should change, I would personally LOOOOVE to see this card back.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Filter cards make the deck more consistent. Seeing as how many people want Grishoalbrand banned now, would hate to see something to accelerate those thoughts, it being my favorite deck.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
No bans
Unban:
- Stoneforge Mystic
- Preordain
- Bloodbraid Elf
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
I agree, it would turn the format into every deck that plays white jamming 4 mystics and a couple equipments into the deck, or splashing white to do the same thing. For the record I love Stoneforge and would love to play it in modern but also don't think it would be healthy for the format.
Midrange Abzan sure would be fun though and it might allow for some Legacy light Esper and UWR blade lists which are some of my favorite in legacy.
I think the card deserves its chance. There is no FoW of Daze backup to protect Stoneforge or Batterskull when you tap out for it. KCommand does work against the card as well. Most importantly, Jitte is banned. As long as Jitte is banned I believe Stoneforge is safer than most people believe - but I do agree it's the ceiling of power level a card can have in the format.
But I understand the skepticism, so I'd be satisfied with BBE and Preordain.