Heck, Treasure Cruise is an even a better example. That thing was played in loads of decks.
Yes. And all of those decks that were playing Treasure Cruise became absolute after the banning. Oh wait. That didn't happen.
The treasure cruise ban only impacted Delver. Other decks that played it (aka burn) were still just as viable post banning.
There is a difference between banning a card that sees play in multiple decks because its so powerful, and banning a card that is a key component in multiple decks.
Every single banning has only truly impacted a single deck.
Honestly, it's a whack-o-mole as to what will be taken from Eldrazi to put it into line. I'm actually more with others on being disappointed we didn't hear much of anything else besides the ban talk. I know it's a pressing issue and a lot of people are concerned over artificial modern rotation and abuse of the ban list, but it would have been nice to hear more about the stuff they are bringing out like Conspiracy or even a name drop for some future card in the SoI block. Heck, just about anything taking peoples minds off of eldrazi.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
People have found alot of ways to beat the eldrazi
I think it's numbers are so high is because everyone and there uncle is playing a form of the deck.
Why not just unbanned some cards.
Banning cards is lame
Unfortunately, the numbers do not support this. There has never been a deck in the history of Modern with even half of these oppressive Eldrazi shares. This suggests the deck is completely and fundamentally broken, not just that Modern players are lazy and can't innovate a way to beat it. Players were able to reign in every other deck to greater extents than Eldrazi, and those other decks included some pretty dang warping ones like Deathrite BGx Midrange and Bloodbraid Jund. All signs point to broken and Wizards will be more than justified banning 1-2 pieces from the deck.
As for unbans, it would be stupid to unban cards when such a broken deck is already in circulation, especially if Wizards has admitted it doesn't even do a lot of testing for unbans. Modern would just be crushed if Wizards unbanned 2-3 cards and Eldrazi still reigned at the top, and there is no testing to confirm or reject if that would happen. It's far safer, smarter, and more aligned with the numbers to ban 1-2 cards from Eldrazi and maaaybe unban 1 card as a way of apologizing to Modern and jumpstarting innovation after a period of major instability.
People have found alot of ways to beat the eldrazi
I think it's numbers are so high is because everyone and there uncle is playing a form of the deck.
Why not just unbanned some cards.
Banning cards is lame
The problem isn't the cards or the bannings. It's the developers. They don't test things out and are very short-sighted in their designs.
In addition, their policy of handling these types of issues is very bad: completely reactionary and ban-happy. They would rather remove the problem than offer tools against the problem.
The eye/temple ban is imminent, sure. But you know what would've been a better way to handle this? A painter's servant alternative that can deal with the 2 lands.
Off the top of my head:
A land/artifact with flash that makes spells colored; this hoses the eye/temple as they require colorless targets.
If they had done this, they would have solved the issue without the deck being threatened.
Heck they pulled this crap with Rest in Peace in the GRAVEYARD MATTERS THEMED BLOCK!
I wish they would spend less time in their ban committees and more time on designing good cards designed for all formats. At least 1/3 of all banned cards shouldn't be banned. GSZ (might as well ban arbor elf if its that strong), preordain (relatively weak), splinter twin (one of the most counterable combos ever), seething song (banned because of storm???), dread return (in a format with massive GY hate), artifact lands (did not make affinity any better than it already was), hypergenesis (very easily countered and not without drawbacks) are all easily counterable and only offer more diversity in the format.
Banning did not destroy multiple decks. Why do people always say it does?
In legacy multiple decks used Dig (miracles, omni-tell, etc.) but it only truly impacted one (omni-tell).
Just because a deck runs a card does not mean banning that card will have a large impact.
If you ban eye: it would have a HUGE impact on both Eldrazi and Tron.
Hence the argument that they don't typically can cards that have an impact on multiple decks.
As a RG Tron player for more than 3 years, I do not think there is a HUGE impact on Tron when Eye gets a ban. At least, not as huge as on Eldrazi.
Even though lots of people are playing it, the deck is also over performing and from what I've seen with the data its meta share is rising from day 2, to top 32, top 16, top 8 etc. Even if the deck is over represented, it shouldn't be seeing the increases it is seeing as the competitors thin out towards the finals, further indication that it is over performing.
Usually they print hoser strategies in the set AFTER the set that it debuts in.
As far as I can remember for a given uninterrupted sequence of cards hating on the prior block: Tunnel Ignus was to hose Zendikar's lands-matter theme, Stony Silence to hose Scars of Mirrodin's artifacts, Rest in Piece and Ash Zealot to hose the flashback and grave-matters aspects of Innistrad, a new cycle of monocolor hate cards to hate on RTR's multicolor...
I'm drawing blanks on Khans block's checks against Theros, but traditionally as a byproduct of balancing Standard the newest set tends to include cards meant to keep the prior set's cardpool in check. This is more important than ever before with the loss of core sets to serve as Standard's mid season "balance patch."
That's utterly false, and anyone who plays the deck competitively can attest to it.
There is no current RG tron list without eye of ugin, and that's not by coincidence.
Losing it would be HUGE.
Except when RG has cantrips and ancient stirrings, monoU has fabricate/treasure mage, etc. If anything, make RG go RGU and splash for those guys. The strength of tron never came from the eye but from urzalands and the walkers. The eye was a great tutor but to say that the deck relied on it is a huge overstatement. The fact that Tron mainly used 1 eye per deck is proof of that.
EDIT: didn't they also just print Conduit of Ruin??? So many ways, so little trying...
Its really great they have banned twin in the name of diversity. Now we WU Eldrazi, UR Eldrazi, Bant Eldrazi, GU Eldrazi and Esper Eldrazi. Just look all all those blue decks!
As opposed to UR Twin, Tarmo Twin, Grixis Twin and Living Twin...
That's utterly false, and anyone who plays the deck competitively can attest to it.
There is no current RG tron list without eye of ugin, and that's not by coincidence.
Losing it would be HUGE.
Except when RG has cantrips and ancient stirrings, monoU has fabricate/treasure mage, etc. If anything, make RG go RGU and splash for those guys. The strength of tron never came from the eye but from urzalands and the walkers. The eye was a great tutor but to say that the deck relied on it is a huge overstatement. The fact that Tron mainly used 1 eye per deck is proof of that.
EDIT: didn't they also just print Conduit of Ruin??? So many ways, so little trying...
I can't agree with you more.
The real power of RG Tron is turn-3 Karn. More than 50% of the cards in the whole deck try to achieve this goal.
Eye is just a plan B to tutor another finisher when the game goes longer in certain cases. It is good to have in the deck for sure, but definitely not as critical as what it did in Eldrazi.
@Carthage - The reason why an opp's deck may not be "interactive" to us is just as much dependant upon our cards not interacting enough with their deck as it is their deck's core gameplan to be solely interactive in it's goal of accomplishing a winning or won gamestate. I disagree that it reduces the game to practically zero decisions, as I feel that a large portion of decisions that provide the result of an "interactive" (by the most common definition, not the definition that I mean of being interactive with the gamestate) are determined by the build of each pilot's deck. Those decisions are likely more important than any decision during the game. An opp's deck is only solitaire if there is not enough cards in the pool to provide opposition to the opp's gameplan or if we choose to not use those cards. The most "human" part of the game is in the building of a deck.
Its really great they have banned twin in the name of diversity. Now we WU Eldrazi, UR Eldrazi, Bant Eldrazi, GU Eldrazi and Esper Eldrazi. Just look all all those blue decks!
As opposed to UR Twin, Tarmo Twin, Grixis Twin and Living Twin...
you cant be serious, Twin wasnt as dominant as Eldrazi is now, its actually reaching standard caw blade numbers.
This thread is full of idiots... Lightning Bolt is NOT being reprinted.
Many times has a writer in Wizards said so, because of the plain and simple fact that it's too powerful for what it costs. x/3 creatures shouldn't be able to die at instant speed for one mana without a signifigant drawback. (like PTE giving you a land)
I absolutely guarantee that LB will not be printed in M10, and you can quote me on that.
Its really great they have banned twin in the name of diversity. Now we WU Eldrazi, UR Eldrazi, Bant Eldrazi, GU Eldrazi and Esper Eldrazi. Just look all all those blue decks!
As opposed to UR Twin, Tarmo Twin, Grixis Twin and Living Twin...
Capping out at what 20%? Swing and a miss on that one friend.
Its really great they have banned twin in the name of diversity. Now we WU Eldrazi, UR Eldrazi, Bant Eldrazi, GU Eldrazi and Esper Eldrazi. Just look all all those blue decks!
As opposed to UR Twin, Tarmo Twin, Grixis Twin and Living Twin...
Capping out at what 20%? Swing and a miss on that one friend.
Regardless of its metashare, Twin stifled format diversity; esp where blue decks were concerned. It was just one bad guy for another with Eldrazi, which will soon be nerfed/banned anyway...
Its really great they have banned twin in the name of diversity. Now we WU Eldrazi, UR Eldrazi, Bant Eldrazi, GU Eldrazi and Esper Eldrazi. Just look all all those blue decks!
As opposed to UR Twin, Tarmo Twin, Grixis Twin and Living Twin...
Capping out at what 20%? Swing and a miss on that one friend.
Regardless of its metashare, Twin stifled format diversity; esp where blue decks were concerned. It was just one bad guy for another with Eldrazi, which will soon be nerfed/banned anyway...
That's because other blue decks are just bad. They don't win for a reason and that reason has never been because of Twin.
Its really great they have banned twin in the name of diversity. Now we WU Eldrazi, UR Eldrazi, Bant Eldrazi, GU Eldrazi and Esper Eldrazi. Just look all all those blue decks!
As opposed to UR Twin, Tarmo Twin, Grixis Twin and Living Twin...
Capping out at what 20%? Swing and a miss on that one friend.
Regardless of its metashare, Twin stifled format diversity; esp where blue decks were concerned. It was just one bad guy for another with Eldrazi, which will soon be nerfed/banned anyway...
That's because other blue decks are just bad. They don't win for a reason and that reason has never been because of Twin.
Yeah, it turns out that being aware of the gamestate and the various ways it develops is more difficult than chaining value spells and turning creatures sideways until the opponent disrespects your combo and hands you the free win.
As opposed to UR Twin, Tarmo Twin, Grixis Twin and Living Twin...
Capping out at what 20%? Swing and a miss on that one friend.
Regardless of its metashare, Twin stifled format diversity; esp where blue decks were concerned. It was just one bad guy for another with Eldrazi, which will soon be nerfed/banned anyway...
That's because other blue decks are just bad. They don't win for a reason and that reason has never been because of Twin.
Yeah, it turns out that being aware of the gamestate and the various ways it develops is more difficult than chaining value spells and turning creatures sideways until the opponent disrespects your combo and hands you the free win.
Make fun of the deck all you want, but the claim that Twin stifled format diversity is laughable. Go take a look at 2015 and tell me with a straight face that format diversity was low, and that it was low because of Twin. No, the format was in fact so diverse, people were complaining about not having enough side board slots to handle all the competitively viable decks. What a stifling effect on diversity!
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
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Heck, Treasure Cruise is an even a better example. That thing was played in loads of decks.
Yes. And all of those decks that were playing Treasure Cruise became absolute after the banning. Oh wait. That didn't happen.
The treasure cruise ban only impacted Delver. Other decks that played it (aka burn) were still just as viable post banning.
There is a difference between banning a card that sees play in multiple decks because its so powerful, and banning a card that is a key component in multiple decks.
Every single banning has only truly impacted a single deck.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think it's numbers are so high is because everyone and there uncle is playing a form of the deck.
Why not just unbanned some cards.
Banning cards is lame
Unfortunately, the numbers do not support this. There has never been a deck in the history of Modern with even half of these oppressive Eldrazi shares. This suggests the deck is completely and fundamentally broken, not just that Modern players are lazy and can't innovate a way to beat it. Players were able to reign in every other deck to greater extents than Eldrazi, and those other decks included some pretty dang warping ones like Deathrite BGx Midrange and Bloodbraid Jund. All signs point to broken and Wizards will be more than justified banning 1-2 pieces from the deck.
As for unbans, it would be stupid to unban cards when such a broken deck is already in circulation, especially if Wizards has admitted it doesn't even do a lot of testing for unbans. Modern would just be crushed if Wizards unbanned 2-3 cards and Eldrazi still reigned at the top, and there is no testing to confirm or reject if that would happen. It's far safer, smarter, and more aligned with the numbers to ban 1-2 cards from Eldrazi and maaaybe unban 1 card as a way of apologizing to Modern and jumpstarting innovation after a period of major instability.
In addition, their policy of handling these types of issues is very bad: completely reactionary and ban-happy. They would rather remove the problem than offer tools against the problem.
The eye/temple ban is imminent, sure. But you know what would've been a better way to handle this? A painter's servant alternative that can deal with the 2 lands.
Off the top of my head:
A land/artifact with flash that makes spells colored; this hoses the eye/temple as they require colorless targets.
If they had done this, they would have solved the issue without the deck being threatened.
Heck they pulled this crap with Rest in Peace in the GRAVEYARD MATTERS THEMED BLOCK!
I wish they would spend less time in their ban committees and more time on designing good cards designed for all formats. At least 1/3 of all banned cards shouldn't be banned. GSZ (might as well ban arbor elf if its that strong), preordain (relatively weak), splinter twin (one of the most counterable combos ever), seething song (banned because of storm???), dread return (in a format with massive GY hate), artifact lands (did not make affinity any better than it already was), hypergenesis (very easily countered and not without drawbacks) are all easily counterable and only offer more diversity in the format.
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
As a RG Tron player for more than 3 years, I do not think there is a HUGE impact on Tron when Eye gets a ban. At least, not as huge as on Eldrazi.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
That's utterly false, and anyone who plays the deck competitively can attest to it.
There is no current RG tron list without eye of ugin, and that's not by coincidence.
Losing it would be HUGE.
As far as I can remember for a given uninterrupted sequence of cards hating on the prior block: Tunnel Ignus was to hose Zendikar's lands-matter theme, Stony Silence to hose Scars of Mirrodin's artifacts, Rest in Piece and Ash Zealot to hose the flashback and grave-matters aspects of Innistrad, a new cycle of monocolor hate cards to hate on RTR's multicolor...
I'm drawing blanks on Khans block's checks against Theros, but traditionally as a byproduct of balancing Standard the newest set tends to include cards meant to keep the prior set's cardpool in check. This is more important than ever before with the loss of core sets to serve as Standard's mid season "balance patch."
EDIT: didn't they also just print Conduit of Ruin??? So many ways, so little trying...
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
I can't agree with you more.
The real power of RG Tron is turn-3 Karn. More than 50% of the cards in the whole deck try to achieve this goal.
Eye is just a plan B to tutor another finisher when the game goes longer in certain cases. It is good to have in the deck for sure, but definitely not as critical as what it did in Eldrazi.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
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you cant be serious, Twin wasnt as dominant as Eldrazi is now, its actually reaching standard caw blade numbers.
“Homo homini lupus est.”
Capping out at what 20%? Swing and a miss on that one friend.
Spirits
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
That's because other blue decks are just bad. They don't win for a reason and that reason has never been because of Twin.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Yeah, it turns out that being aware of the gamestate and the various ways it develops is more difficult than chaining value spells and turning creatures sideways until the opponent disrespects your combo and hands you the free win.
Make fun of the deck all you want, but the claim that Twin stifled format diversity is laughable. Go take a look at 2015 and tell me with a straight face that format diversity was low, and that it was low because of Twin. No, the format was in fact so diverse, people were complaining about not having enough side board slots to handle all the competitively viable decks. What a stifling effect on diversity!
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
No, it's the players fault.
Spirits
As Ice Cube once said...
Spirits